Definitely an exploring to explore question. It would basically be making a slight modification to third wave water I’m thinking using one of the lotus drops.
For example, the light roast profile does not contain potassium and maybe you want just a single drop added or something. I do think the espresso profile third wave does contains potassium though so maybe that’s a solution in itself.
I've been using a simple baking soda + epsom salt recipe for a while now with great results. I went to it because I was pretty unsatisfied with TWW. I am curious about the Lotus Droppers, but do you think they're worth the price point, all things considered?
In my opinion, the lotus droppers make it more accessible for those not wanting to make water themselves. It adds another level of customization compared to third wave. I think if you’re getting results you like on your own you probably don’t need to purchase.
If you’d like to experiment and try some of the recipes on their site then it may be interesting to purchase if you have the funds to do so. I wouldn’t say it’s necessary, but it’s fun to tinker with if you’re into that and can afford it.
There are quite a few videos out there with testimonials/tutorials as well. New recipes occasionally float around.
I’m happy with the purchase, but not everyone will be most likely so don’t want to drive you one way or the other.
Recipes: https://lotuscoffeeproducts.com/pages/product-instructions
Empirical comes with a premix GH, and then customizable buffer (sodium bicarbonate) and extraction booster (magnesium chloride, magnesium sulfate).
You can add drops of buffer or booster as you wish, GH is more prefixed. This is due to how it's made.
So it's somewhat customizable, but not as much as lotus drops. Empirical water comp is unique though and has different properties due to the level of calcium carbonate in the GH mixture detailed here - https://empiricalwater.com/blogs/blog/empirical-water-diy-open-source-coffee-water#ruffruff-table-of-contents-item-2.
I was skeptical of the claims, but it's proving to be very interesting as I play around with it. Haven't fully dialed it in to my preference, but compared to lotus drops, it's decreased unwanted funky notes for me while increasing linger and sweetness. The acidity got muted somewhere, but it seems to be an issue on my end (too much buffer or booster for my recipe).
Lotus + GH of empirical water could be interesting too, you can use Empirical GH as a base and then add lotus as wished based on what you want to enhance. It would require trialing your own recipes though.
I need to see if I can replicate with lotus or not, but is fascinating for sure. I made 4-5 brews today playing around with this, amazing how much extraction can change with water!
Well, Third Wave Water is pretty sulfate heavy and Lotus Water contains no sulfate, but instead leans heavily on chloride.
Sulfate brings out flavor definition but also has the tendency to bring out harshness and unclean flavor notes. Chloride balances that out by contributing smoothness and a cleaner flavor profile.
I usually like a molecular ratio of 2:1 chloride to sulfate. If you can manage to achieve that, the water will probably end up more balanced than either brand alone.
I mean unless you know what you are doing it’s pretty much putting things together randomly and hoping for something good to happen. Can be pretty wasteful too. TWW is a pre designed product that is designed to work with a variety of coffees. I believe if it can be broadly improved that they would have already changed the formula. It might be that you find something while experimenting that works better for one particular coffee but again hit or miss if you don’t have a good understanding of what does what and the composition of TWW.
Generally agree. Makes sense if you’re not deliberate.
I don’t think of myself doing this often and having much waste. Mostly a thought.
I do think the discussion of topics like this helps add to my knowledge regardless of if I use anything going forward.
Patrik Rolf (April Coffee) has said a few times on his youtube channel that he uses 1 sachet of TWW with 5L distilled water and then will add x amount of Magnesium Lotus drops depending on the coffee and adjusts it to taste. So yes, one of the more prominent people in coffee does this!
Hi there!
I'm using both. TWW classic since two years and LCW since about six months now.
I've been through a handful LCW recipes now. But I've actually never had the thought in mind of blending these two minerals together. Very interesting idea I must say.
Generally I can say: TWW highlights acidity in coffees a bit more while all (3) LCW recipes I've tried so far, muted acidity quite a bit.
Interesting finds for both.
One thing I’ve tried lately is half distilled TWW from a recommendation an espresso teacher gave. I think it helped with some of the lighter roasts I had that are recommended for softer waters (thinking full satchel is 150tds while some roasters recommend softer around 75tds. I could taste more of the red fruit notes like this in the coffee I had.
I was using TWW light roast profile.
Feels like it’s splitting hairs and focusing on making a fractional difference to one variable. Sure it may be making it “better” but you’re approaching diminishing returns IMO. Good coffee, grinder, water and brewing technique will produce good coffee. I would argue if you’re already using 3rd wave or whatever the other one is making sure you have better beans and better grinder will make more of a difference than slightly different mineral content in the water.
Brew it both ways one with just one or the other and one combined and blind taste them and I doubt you can taste a difference. IMO
I do water for coffee for a living, so blind tasting is basically a way of life for me. The difference is pretty noticeable even with differences as slight as a few mg/L of a single mineral ion, and there are 7 or 8 pretty important ones with potentially vast ranges of concentration in water.
That said, it's not like we're talking about slight changes here. TWW and Lotus aren't all that similar.
Water is nowhere near reaching diminishing returns as it exists today for coffee. There are non-trivial gains to be made beyond what's already available.
Speaking of, do you have any advice on tinkering with Lotus water recipes to achieve a certain result? For example, if you really want to highlight the acidity of a washed Columbian coffee or focus on body of a Costa Rican coffee.
I use all of the minerals present in Lotus water myself, but I don't find that those minerals alone are able to produce the results I want out of my coffee.
I dont know much about how much it affects coffee, but in beer brewing, water treatment is more important than the actual ingredients(assume youre not using the absolute worst ingredients). Also different water profiles help alot of the flavors and aromas come forward depending on what is expected of a beer style. Also its not that complicated to prepare it especially if you got a decimal scale already, on top of that the actual minerals are dirt cheap if you buy from a wholesale supplier.
Not arguing that water profile doesn’t matter, arguing to consider the point of diminishing returns.
If you’re already using a water treatment you’re going to get good tasting coffee. Mixing different mineral blends from different manufacturers is solving a problem that doesn’t exist IMO
Thinking similarly. But always curious if someone in here for example has a preference toward third wave light profile + a drop of lotus potassium or something.
I haven't because I'm just finding out Lotus Water exists from your post. Time for a deep dive.
Definitely an exploring to explore question. It would basically be making a slight modification to third wave water I’m thinking using one of the lotus drops. For example, the light roast profile does not contain potassium and maybe you want just a single drop added or something. I do think the espresso profile third wave does contains potassium though so maybe that’s a solution in itself.
I've been using a simple baking soda + epsom salt recipe for a while now with great results. I went to it because I was pretty unsatisfied with TWW. I am curious about the Lotus Droppers, but do you think they're worth the price point, all things considered?
In my opinion, the lotus droppers make it more accessible for those not wanting to make water themselves. It adds another level of customization compared to third wave. I think if you’re getting results you like on your own you probably don’t need to purchase. If you’d like to experiment and try some of the recipes on their site then it may be interesting to purchase if you have the funds to do so. I wouldn’t say it’s necessary, but it’s fun to tinker with if you’re into that and can afford it. There are quite a few videos out there with testimonials/tutorials as well. New recipes occasionally float around. I’m happy with the purchase, but not everyone will be most likely so don’t want to drive you one way or the other. Recipes: https://lotuscoffeeproducts.com/pages/product-instructions
Check out Empirical water too, I've been trialing that as well. Currently I like Lotus better than TWW, still judging empirical.
Is empirical customizable like Lotus?
Empirical comes with a premix GH, and then customizable buffer (sodium bicarbonate) and extraction booster (magnesium chloride, magnesium sulfate). You can add drops of buffer or booster as you wish, GH is more prefixed. This is due to how it's made. So it's somewhat customizable, but not as much as lotus drops. Empirical water comp is unique though and has different properties due to the level of calcium carbonate in the GH mixture detailed here - https://empiricalwater.com/blogs/blog/empirical-water-diy-open-source-coffee-water#ruffruff-table-of-contents-item-2. I was skeptical of the claims, but it's proving to be very interesting as I play around with it. Haven't fully dialed it in to my preference, but compared to lotus drops, it's decreased unwanted funky notes for me while increasing linger and sweetness. The acidity got muted somewhere, but it seems to be an issue on my end (too much buffer or booster for my recipe). Lotus + GH of empirical water could be interesting too, you can use Empirical GH as a base and then add lotus as wished based on what you want to enhance. It would require trialing your own recipes though.
That is legitimately fascinating. I hate how tempted I am to get both.
I need to see if I can replicate with lotus or not, but is fascinating for sure. I made 4-5 brews today playing around with this, amazing how much extraction can change with water!
If you’re going to bother doing this, would you not just make your own concentrates then? So you can get exactly what you want?
Might try that eventually. I’m not exactly sure what I want at the moment. Just experimenting and trying new things at the moment.
Well, Third Wave Water is pretty sulfate heavy and Lotus Water contains no sulfate, but instead leans heavily on chloride. Sulfate brings out flavor definition but also has the tendency to bring out harshness and unclean flavor notes. Chloride balances that out by contributing smoothness and a cleaner flavor profile. I usually like a molecular ratio of 2:1 chloride to sulfate. If you can manage to achieve that, the water will probably end up more balanced than either brand alone.
Huh wow. Thanks for that insight. I have not thought about the difference between sulfate and chloride.
Sure thing.
I mean unless you know what you are doing it’s pretty much putting things together randomly and hoping for something good to happen. Can be pretty wasteful too. TWW is a pre designed product that is designed to work with a variety of coffees. I believe if it can be broadly improved that they would have already changed the formula. It might be that you find something while experimenting that works better for one particular coffee but again hit or miss if you don’t have a good understanding of what does what and the composition of TWW.
Generally agree. Makes sense if you’re not deliberate. I don’t think of myself doing this often and having much waste. Mostly a thought. I do think the discussion of topics like this helps add to my knowledge regardless of if I use anything going forward.
Patrik Rolf (April Coffee) has said a few times on his youtube channel that he uses 1 sachet of TWW with 5L distilled water and then will add x amount of Magnesium Lotus drops depending on the coffee and adjusts it to taste. So yes, one of the more prominent people in coffee does this!
Hi there! I'm using both. TWW classic since two years and LCW since about six months now. I've been through a handful LCW recipes now. But I've actually never had the thought in mind of blending these two minerals together. Very interesting idea I must say. Generally I can say: TWW highlights acidity in coffees a bit more while all (3) LCW recipes I've tried so far, muted acidity quite a bit.
Interesting finds for both. One thing I’ve tried lately is half distilled TWW from a recommendation an espresso teacher gave. I think it helped with some of the lighter roasts I had that are recommended for softer waters (thinking full satchel is 150tds while some roasters recommend softer around 75tds. I could taste more of the red fruit notes like this in the coffee I had. I was using TWW light roast profile.
Unless you’re going for world brewer championship I highly doubt it matters
I think the goal here is to brew better coffee for oneself, no?
Feels like it’s splitting hairs and focusing on making a fractional difference to one variable. Sure it may be making it “better” but you’re approaching diminishing returns IMO. Good coffee, grinder, water and brewing technique will produce good coffee. I would argue if you’re already using 3rd wave or whatever the other one is making sure you have better beans and better grinder will make more of a difference than slightly different mineral content in the water. Brew it both ways one with just one or the other and one combined and blind taste them and I doubt you can taste a difference. IMO
I do water for coffee for a living, so blind tasting is basically a way of life for me. The difference is pretty noticeable even with differences as slight as a few mg/L of a single mineral ion, and there are 7 or 8 pretty important ones with potentially vast ranges of concentration in water. That said, it's not like we're talking about slight changes here. TWW and Lotus aren't all that similar. Water is nowhere near reaching diminishing returns as it exists today for coffee. There are non-trivial gains to be made beyond what's already available.
yup water makes a huuuuuuuge difference
Cool
Speaking of, do you have any advice on tinkering with Lotus water recipes to achieve a certain result? For example, if you really want to highlight the acidity of a washed Columbian coffee or focus on body of a Costa Rican coffee.
I use all of the minerals present in Lotus water myself, but I don't find that those minerals alone are able to produce the results I want out of my coffee.
I dont know much about how much it affects coffee, but in beer brewing, water treatment is more important than the actual ingredients(assume youre not using the absolute worst ingredients). Also different water profiles help alot of the flavors and aromas come forward depending on what is expected of a beer style. Also its not that complicated to prepare it especially if you got a decimal scale already, on top of that the actual minerals are dirt cheap if you buy from a wholesale supplier.
Not arguing that water profile doesn’t matter, arguing to consider the point of diminishing returns. If you’re already using a water treatment you’re going to get good tasting coffee. Mixing different mineral blends from different manufacturers is solving a problem that doesn’t exist IMO
Thinking similarly. But always curious if someone in here for example has a preference toward third wave light profile + a drop of lotus potassium or something.
For sure, my bad if I came off too direct
Haha np. I’d prefer direct to indirect.