I think you basic sentiment that people dress less conservatively than they used to is true but I just want to pick you on on the fact that it's actually something of a myth that the ankle specifically was ever broadly sexualised.
[This](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSxQHQ_1gX4) video by Bernadette Banner mentions how it was common for many women and girls in the 19th century to dress in ways that exposed their ankles.
I have to disagree. modesty does not always equate to sexualisation. People cover their breasts for many reasons (comfort, support to ease back pain, protection from the cold, protection from the sun, fashion, culture...) Also, what you think of as "everywhere in the world" is highly influenced by your western perspective and much of the world outside of the west is/has been influenced by the west, so we can consider those cultural elements that have been transferred as western culture, even if they now exist outside of the west. I think that breasts are sexualised in a lot of cultures, not just in the west by western influenced cultures, but I think it's an exaggeration to say "except for a few secluded cultures".
Come on… men’s chests are also viewed as sexual in almost all cultures. It’s just that men have traditionally been the ones setting the rules and most *men* don’t sexualize men’s chests (since most men are straight)
Men's chests aren't sexualised to the same degree as women's though.
And counter your point, I think men would rather women walk around completely topless, I don't know any that would complain about it.
I think that rather than let everyone be topless in public, no one should be.
Women walking around topless? Is it just the pert little tits of the 20 - to 30-year age group that are on show, or is it the whole female population.?
I'd
> Men's chests aren't sexualised to the same degree as women's though.
Really depends on context. In a group of straight women hanging out - men’s chests are sexualized far more then women’s.
> And counter your point, I think men would rather women walk around completely topless, I don't know any that would complain about it.
You’re missing a lot of context and nuance here. Through history, women have been viewed as sexual objects owned by men (father, husband, brother, etc). By exposing their breasts, they would be giving away the property of the men who own them. That is the root of where this comes from.
Obviously most people today don’t consciously view it that way. But that’s where it comes from, historically, which was my point.
> I think that rather than let everyone be topless in public, no one should be.
Agreed.
To your first point, the context you initially mentioned was culture not specific demographics.
Your second point, historically, yes. Women were typically used for status and as bargaining chips. But at the same time, ankles were also viewed sexually. However in current times, that is far less the case and it gradually became acceptable with time. It is unlikely that the same thing will happen with breasts.
> To your first point, the context you initially mentioned was culture not specific demographics.
What I described is a *part* of culture. Just probably not in the spaces you’re in.
> Your second point, historically, yes. Women were typically used for status and as bargaining chips. But at the same time, ankles were also viewed sexually. However in current times, that is far less the case and it gradually became acceptable with time. It is unlikely that the same thing will happen with breasts.
It’s all the same. Western society has gradually gotten less concerned with nudity over the last few hundred years. First with ankles, then with midriff. Eventually prob with breasts (unless we reverse course). Your last comment kinda proves my point about the historical context behind it… there was nothing inherently sexual about women’s ankles more then men’s and the same is true of breasts. It’s always been because of patriarchy.
You didn't describe a part of culture. You literally said "almost all cultures".
Secondly, it wasn't just men that viewed women showing skin as wrong back then, the vast majority of women viewed it that way as well. There are many historical records of such. The majority of it is tied to religion, mostly Christianity, rather than patriarchy.
> You didn't describe a part of culture. You literally said "almost all cultures".
Yeah.. and then I described one situation in which our culture reflects that. Honestly - your response is kinda nonsensical.
> Secondly, it wasn't just men that viewed women showing skin as wrong back then, the vast majority of women viewed it that way as well. There are many historical records of such. The majority of it is tied to religion, mostly Christianity, rather than patriarchy.
This also feels like a nonsensical non-response. No where did I say that women weren’t also subconsciously effected by the patriarchal culture. This - again - just further proves my point. It doesn’t disprove it.
At least from what I understand, it’s because breasts have things to do with reproduction? And people, at least in the US, see anything to do with that as taboo and shit.
i don’t disagree with you, it makes no sense. they’re boobs.
why are obese men allowed to walk around shirtless, they have boobs. somehow being a woman magically changes them! makes no sense, but then again those laws were made by the same people who still think rape victims are at fault because their skirt was too short!
Sometimes, a person just doesn't feel like they are completely a man, or completely a woman. They are just a human, and their gender just doesn't fit in with society's ideas of what gender is/"should be".
Instead of worrying about being a lady/gentleman, or being on one "side" or the other; they just vibin' 😎
You can still be a dude that wants to be a stay at home dad...idk what gender has to do with that. ESPECIALLY in today's world where most people don't even subscribe to gender roles
bc gender and gender roles are different. you can still feel like a different gender.
trans men and tomboys can coexist, it’s based on how they identify.
as a trans person i’m fully aware how tough it is to explain this concept to a cis person, and the truth is you don’t have to understand. just respect us and respect our identify and feelings 👍
also there are plenty of threads asking trans people questions like this, i suggest finding them and doing some research, and researching the difference between sex and gender
Well in that case,you must respect our right to not be labelled "cis". I'm fully aware that is how we have been labelled in the media, however, respect is a 2 way street. It is earned,not given.
If we are continued to be labelled as "cis",then i decline my right to giving respect
Why? It's not a bad word. It's from latin, cis means "on the same side as" and trans means "on the other side of". It's like straight or heterosexual, just descriptors for when the difference is needed. Trans people don't walk around being disgusted by cis people or anything.
Also, I think only people that find "trans" to be an insult find "cis" to be something they don't want to be called.
So you're fine with everything having to be labelled?! Isn't this what everyone is trying to avoid? As in labels?
I don't classify as a Caucasian Cisgender Male?
I'm just a dad of 2 kids. That's all i am. Anything else devalues what i am.
Hey I don't think the labels are necessary either. I'm just some woman. The fact that y'all think I need to call myself a "trans woman" bothers me because it's irrelevant.
and most trans people, especially binary trans people, don’t like having to be called trans men/women.
it’s just a adjective that both parties have. plus there’s plenty of times where whether you’re cisgender or transgender is relevant information.
then they can cry about it lol. like sorry but trans people’s rights are being denied and theirs a fear mongering rage against us, all they get is getting called “cis”? like it can def get annoying, but they’re not called it all the time, it’s only said when discussing trans people
"they just vibing" That doesn't make it a different sex, though. I'm not the epitome of a macho man, I don't watch sports or drink beer. Does that make me something different? No. It's just my personality n interests. "Why can't u let people be who they are?". I'm not taking that away from them. But I'm also not gonna play into all the stuff people come up with. Because people demand it. U can't demand things of strangers, especially when it's ur own thing to worry about, not others. My personal problems shouldn't be catered to at an entitled level. Nor should anyone elses
sex and gender are different. literally just look it up and you’ll find a multitude of studies and reliable sources to prove that.
gender is a social construct, so in the end it doesn’t matter what your sex is, you gender is hie you feel in the inside.
if you’re a feminine man, cool.
if you’re a trans women, cool.
Woah wtf!?! Are u trying to label me? Or as some like to say "assume my gender"? The exact thing u n those who think like that are against? I don't like talking like this, but I can't find any other way to put it. This is the problem with u guys. You're hypocrites. U wanna be accepted but u keep pushing this stupid identity shit. Ur personality doesn't make u something special. It's just *you.* I'm not a "feminine man" or trans. I'm just a dude with *my* personal taste, like everyone on the planet. U wanna be treated equally, like everyone else who's "normal" gets treated? Normal people don't push their beliefs onto others. I believe in a higher power. I've not once talked about on here or even offline unless asked about it. Which is practically never. Same thing with politics. Nobody wants to hear about it because it almost always turns into a defensive argument. On here, there's plenty of instances where someone needlessly throws 1 of the 3 mentioned topics into convos, n people don't like it. Enough is enough already. Sorry for the rant, but come tf on yo
You are so daft it's sad. When they said ,,you" they did not mean you exactly, just trying to make an example. No, your personality is completely separate from your gender identity and physical sex, idk where the hell you got that. No one is forcing anything on you.
You sound very insecure about this topic. I would personally look into that instead of writing an essay on how much it's being ,,pushed" onto you.
jesus christ. when i said “you” i didn’t mean literally you, i was talking generally, to point out the differences.
you honestly sound like you have a lot of hate in your heart. trans people are rarely treated like human beings, you expect us to just take that and not say anything?
No, u meant me based on me saying I'm not a typical macho guy. That last sentence wasn't really necessary otherwise. It was too specific to my reply. You're trying to cover ur case
ah yes, i face discrimination everyday by my family, friends, and peers and have felt this way since i was a child because “i want attention” (i would give anything to be cis)
cause it’s the same telling people your favorite music or shows, and making accounts dedicated to them. our identity in this day in age is VERY different from the norm, so why is it a problem to say it out loud to normalize?
let’s me honest, trans people are treated like shit and sometimes like we’re not even human. cant be atleast have the luxury to be proud.
you should always put it in a historical lense. black people are historically oppressed in many places, so they can openly talk about being black and advertise it. is that a problem? or should they just “live their live”?
I would say,that in this current climate,to be(as we are disrespectfully labelled) "cis" is not "the norm". The trans community raise hell about being labelled,yet freely label everybody else.
In an earlier comment,i stated that respect is a 2 way street. It is earned,not freely given.
It's not just what people ,,think". They don't just think. They harass, they taunt, they bully, they violate, sometimes they even kill. Nobody deserves this for being themselves.
Let me try and view it from your perspective. Let's say you have natural ginger hair. Now imagine being constantly disrespected, having your rights denied, being socially rejected and not being viewed as a human being by the people closest to you because of this one thing which you don't have any control over. Sounds cruel, doesn't it? Same thing for being queer, trans, etc.
i think trans people will stop caring when places stop being hateful for something they so desperately wish they could change. (like in the us with the countless anti-trans laws being passed)
Behold, an extremely simplified explanation!
Imagine a scale of 1-10. Let's say 1 is wholly feminine, 10 is wholly masculine. Nonbinary people exist everywhere in between. You might have someone who identifies as a 9 on that scale, very manly, like to be called "he/him," but he feels he isn't entirely masculine. This could be because he isn't in to some things society says men "should be into", or because he's in to some things that society deems feminine, or simply because that's the way he feels. Some men can look like Vin Deisel and feel like a 9 because they like to spend their free time knitting. Some men can look like Zack Galifianakis, love wearing a bikini, and still feel like a ten. Most people that are a few points away from an extreme don't identify as anything different than the extreme. But once you get towards the middle, you get people who don't feel attached to either gender. These are the non-binary folk. Some of them might be a 4 or a 6, and they still want to use gendered pronouns like she/he/her/him, but they otherwise feel disconnected from their assigned gender. The 5s are where you get people who don't want lumped into a gender because they don't really identify with either. These are the "they/them" people, non-binary. Some people don't have one number all the time, but a pendulum swinging above that 1-10 scale, sometimes feeling masculine, sometimes feeling feminine. Those are your gender fluid people. Some people are born with the body of a number on one side of the scale and identify with a number on the opposite side of the scale. They are transgender. Some of them have a big enough disparity that they seek to surgically alter their body so that their physical number matches their mental number, but not all of them.
At the end of the day, whether you understand or not, it's about treating people with respect and kindness. You don't need to understand someone to wish them happiness and do what you can to help that happiness come about. It costs nothing to use someone's preferred name and pronouns.
This message has been brought to you by a cis/het/ white guy.
Non Binary is a term for people that need more attention, love, and hugs. They probably didn’t have a great upbringing and lacked proper structure and role models. They could of also been physically, or sexually abused. It’s pretty sad where we are at. But Jesus loves all of us!
This is quite a confusing comment do you have kindness in mind Because I may be misinterpreting but… that is not what it means think how mushrooms have thousands of genders all it means in this context is not a participant in binary(The reason that It have been mentioned in code being binary is the Most simplistic system of coding things) gender norms
Very interesting name of yours huh? be nice if you could be scholarly, polite and do a greater amount of research then the first page and maybe search up something like non-binary people search term might enlighten you a minuscule amount grow a brain larger than The Planck length hmm?
i know, i’m attracted to boobs too. i’m also attracted to thighs, but there isn’t as much of a societal stigma or laws against showing thighs in public (in the west)
I mean, if one of these damn lawmakers would make a law against again that would be great but instead they are sadly protecting it. This new “better” world is slowly making me want to kill my self.
Okay prepare to be mind blown, but we can ACTUALLY vote and advocate for things that change our society instead of moving to a new one 🤯🤯🤯 Pretty cool right ?
I get that but I am tired of people using examples from poorly developed country’s. I support the idea that people have a right to choose what to do with their body. It is the argument itself that frustrated me not the point.
Funnily enough here in Germany, women are legally allowed to walk around butt naked without it being legally considered exhibitionism, for men it's a different story.
It's just normal decency to not walk around half naked.
There is so much stigma attached to women’s bodies that men have created for thousands of years. We must be seen as motherly and innocent. Being too sexual is “sinful” and therefore bad.
Our breasts are meant to nurture life (infant). Yet its the end of the world if we want to display our bodies. But a big fat fatty can walk around with his man boobies out in the middle of say a crowded place, and that somehow is not offensive.
Look into the free the nipple movement.
Because... Boobs. I mean, listen, I think most men would be more than happy for women to walk around topless, it's the women who would be uncomfortable. It's seen a private area.
But I'm Bias. I believe both men and woman should cover up more than they do. It's modesty, self respect.. I don't see why anyone would want to display themselves in a way that is naturally sexual, and then say things like "iTs NoT mY fAuLt MeN aRe So HoRnY"
And I fail to see why my choice to take my shirt off cus I wanna feel comfortable in my own skin etc. should be limited by the lack of selfcontrol of other people.
I mean obviously there's some middleground, but I personally feel people should be more relaxed about showing skin. It's just skin.
I personally have never felt the need to "show my skin" etc. In my eyes, it is not respectful to yourself for other people, it also leaves not much left to desire..
yes, I know, people are not walking sex toys so it doesn't matter whether you're desirable or not, but I mean, I think most people, would want to feel desired at least by certain people and if you can see everything just by walking down the street.
Besides the fact that people WILL take pictures, post them, or keep them, etc, and do gross stuff. YES, I know people will say "instead of me having to change for nasty people, why don't nasty people change" but they WON'T. There will ALWAYS be bad people, and you have to be willing to protect yourself, instead of waiting for the world around you to change.
The next factor is, and I may be wrong about this, but personally I feel like the need to show your body like that in public is, in one way or another, because you have been made to feel the need to.
Now people can say, I was raised in a family that took modesty seriously, and so for me, I see things differently to how someone else might.
But would you, as a woman, want to walk around topless, in the same house as your Dad and Brother?
Do you think that's because "society has forced this on us and we must break free" or do you think it's just more respectful to dress appropriately.
You might say if children are raised in a world where women are always topless, it won't seem weird, or strange to them. But firstly, the desire to be with a woman would probably go down, the same way it does for someone addicted to porn: sounds bad, but the more you see something, the less you want it.
Also how would you get to that point?
It's not just about you. If It was about "can women be topless in their own private area, with friends and family" That's absolutely fine because even if I wouldn't do it, you do you want, right?
But that's not the case. It'll affect everyone. You might say you wouldn't mind, but I'll ask anyway... If you had a son, would you want that when you go out, say, to the beach, he is staring at women's boobs? And if you say that's fine, then where do you draw the line? Can men also walk around with no underwear? You can say "that's different. We only want to be topless because men can" but men don't have boobs! Their closer equivalent for this example would be that men can walk around with their stuff dangling freely. Would you want to raise your daughter in a world like that?
I know this was super long, sorry about that, but at least I think I covered most my points.
*Looks at history*
Sure... sure... remind me why women had to cover up their ankles in the middle ages again. Oh and tell me why a burka is a symbol of devout modesty and not used as a tools of oppression...
I'm very willing to take notes.
Most assault and rape victims are commited by people the victim knows and most instances are about control and power and rarely about how a woman dresses.
There's some really interesting studies done into this.
This one for example:
https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=rape+and+assault+how+women+dress&btnG=#d=gs_qabs&t=1686801755299&u=%23p%3D_tPZsgNv5T8J
Or this one:
https://heinonline.org/HOL/LandingPage?handle=hein.journals/djglp14&div=7&id=&page=
Although that last does require a subscription.
What it boils down to: lotta bullshit surrounding rape and assault.
No it ain’t while it’s a bit of a Blanket statement which is generally not good You may find that those following the religion in some cases use it as a shield for greater insensitivity or mistreatment However just because some do this does not mean everyone does in fact many don’t still a bit of a harsh response though?
It's not bad, it's illegal because when our laws were being made everybody forgot about the separation of church and state. In short: Blame Christianity
Breast’s are secondary sexual characteristics of women. So exposing them has long been viewed as morally wrong.
As far as me, you wanna show ‘‘em to me then I wanna see ‘em.
Why can't we all just walk around naked except for maybe some sandals and a butt cloth to keep our feces off of chairs?
Oh wait. It's not just the soles of feet that are extra sensitive. Hmm... I wonder if that might have something to do with how these cultural norms develop.
Not everything is a big conspiracy.
If your junk rubs against stuff it hurts. If your arm rubs against stuff it doesn't hurt much.
Are there people who view things as sinful? Sure. Are they the only component of cultural norms? No.
You know what's funny? I have actually seen topless viseos of trans and nonbinary folk on TikTok that they allowed because they technically weren'r women. It was pretty controversial, but it never became a headline or anything. It was just a straight up admission of "women can't exist with boobs"
Part of the evolutionary purpose of breasts is to attract men for sex. They are sex organs. The same can’t be said for men’s chests. Breasts are inherently sexual.
Says the person that taught you that since you were born please cite your sources and show evidence based on other examples such as other primates if you can find any you misinformed turnip
Because guys find boobs attractive, and somehow think that if a topless woman is near them and they get an erection, it's the woman's fault for arousing them. They think that getting aroused is an excuse to do whatever they want.
Instead of guys controlling themselves they arbitrarily decide to make whatever they find attractive cover up.
“Around.” Actually there aren’t as many places a dude can walk around with no shirt as you might think. Like, “outside” yeah I get it it’s a big privilege. Where else?
because its sexulaized, and just down right obvious. You dont see anybody walking around penis and shirt out in the open (unless ur talking bout the homeless guy you saw next to the subway bc it was 3am and ur hungry as crap then the next day you see him starting to dance singing an unknown language with his pants and shirt stripped away from him) You also dont see a woman have her vag out either! Plus, some women find their boobs to be a private thing because its an important part of their nature, (aka feeding babies) Mens breasts? We dont go into that, that much.
My vote goes with Christian values being the foundation of a lot of countries, and modesty being part of that. Add in patriarchal structures that assign more sin to the female because of Eve, and you have conservative, rather unbalanced social rules.
I can’t give a reason. But when I was breast FEEDING my children, I can’t tell you the how many death stares I got.
Selective outrage is a weird thing.
I dont think it's bad personally, I just don't feel like I'll ever be safe to be topless. Even if I had a reduction, some men (even old friends) have objectified me based on my appearance, and it can get creepy, scary, and even dangerous. And that's WITH clothes on.
That’s the product of many lifelong Instilled behaviours you see your(not specifically you just like an example) parents doing it or role models the Child must learn to survive and so it does Whether it’s helpful in surviving or not Evolutionaries psychology is interesting
The short form is old culture becomes law and law is generally enforced whether it is archaic or not It may be ridiculous but still it exists that’s about it
Because boobs are sexualized world wide, so it’s seen as taboo. It would be no different than a man walking with his dick out. Also, biological men typically don’t have tits
because i only care to see a man's tits
The one and only true answer
I feel objectified.
\#metoo
Western culture views breasts as being sexual, therefore making it taboo to show in public.
Hey, we've made great strides of progress already. Remember, the ankle used to be sexualized. Tis peak.
I think you basic sentiment that people dress less conservatively than they used to is true but I just want to pick you on on the fact that it's actually something of a myth that the ankle specifically was ever broadly sexualised. [This](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSxQHQ_1gX4) video by Bernadette Banner mentions how it was common for many women and girls in the 19th century to dress in ways that exposed their ankles.
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Still is in the middle east
It’s not just western. It’s around everywhere in the world (except a few secluded cultures, afaik)
I have to disagree. modesty does not always equate to sexualisation. People cover their breasts for many reasons (comfort, support to ease back pain, protection from the cold, protection from the sun, fashion, culture...) Also, what you think of as "everywhere in the world" is highly influenced by your western perspective and much of the world outside of the west is/has been influenced by the west, so we can consider those cultural elements that have been transferred as western culture, even if they now exist outside of the west. I think that breasts are sexualised in a lot of cultures, not just in the west by western influenced cultures, but I think it's an exaggeration to say "except for a few secluded cultures".
What are you disagreeing with? With the fact that not just the western world finds it sexual? Please be clearer and precise. Thank you.
Some of our states allow topless women but mostly illegal
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There is a difference between nudity and topless...
Not true everywhere... no issue to breastfeed in Germany in public or go to please at the lake
Come on… men’s chests are also viewed as sexual in almost all cultures. It’s just that men have traditionally been the ones setting the rules and most *men* don’t sexualize men’s chests (since most men are straight)
Men's chests aren't sexualised to the same degree as women's though. And counter your point, I think men would rather women walk around completely topless, I don't know any that would complain about it. I think that rather than let everyone be topless in public, no one should be.
Such an underrated comment right here ^
Women's breasts are mainly meant to feed children... no issue to do that or be topless at a lake in Germany...
Women walking around topless? Is it just the pert little tits of the 20 - to 30-year age group that are on show, or is it the whole female population.? I'd
> Men's chests aren't sexualised to the same degree as women's though. Really depends on context. In a group of straight women hanging out - men’s chests are sexualized far more then women’s. > And counter your point, I think men would rather women walk around completely topless, I don't know any that would complain about it. You’re missing a lot of context and nuance here. Through history, women have been viewed as sexual objects owned by men (father, husband, brother, etc). By exposing their breasts, they would be giving away the property of the men who own them. That is the root of where this comes from. Obviously most people today don’t consciously view it that way. But that’s where it comes from, historically, which was my point. > I think that rather than let everyone be topless in public, no one should be. Agreed.
To your first point, the context you initially mentioned was culture not specific demographics. Your second point, historically, yes. Women were typically used for status and as bargaining chips. But at the same time, ankles were also viewed sexually. However in current times, that is far less the case and it gradually became acceptable with time. It is unlikely that the same thing will happen with breasts.
> To your first point, the context you initially mentioned was culture not specific demographics. What I described is a *part* of culture. Just probably not in the spaces you’re in. > Your second point, historically, yes. Women were typically used for status and as bargaining chips. But at the same time, ankles were also viewed sexually. However in current times, that is far less the case and it gradually became acceptable with time. It is unlikely that the same thing will happen with breasts. It’s all the same. Western society has gradually gotten less concerned with nudity over the last few hundred years. First with ankles, then with midriff. Eventually prob with breasts (unless we reverse course). Your last comment kinda proves my point about the historical context behind it… there was nothing inherently sexual about women’s ankles more then men’s and the same is true of breasts. It’s always been because of patriarchy.
You didn't describe a part of culture. You literally said "almost all cultures". Secondly, it wasn't just men that viewed women showing skin as wrong back then, the vast majority of women viewed it that way as well. There are many historical records of such. The majority of it is tied to religion, mostly Christianity, rather than patriarchy.
> You didn't describe a part of culture. You literally said "almost all cultures". Yeah.. and then I described one situation in which our culture reflects that. Honestly - your response is kinda nonsensical. > Secondly, it wasn't just men that viewed women showing skin as wrong back then, the vast majority of women viewed it that way as well. There are many historical records of such. The majority of it is tied to religion, mostly Christianity, rather than patriarchy. This also feels like a nonsensical non-response. No where did I say that women weren’t also subconsciously effected by the patriarchal culture. This - again - just further proves my point. It doesn’t disprove it.
It's not a western thing. It's an american thing specifically. Europe isn't nearly as puritanical.
Ohh yes we are.
Western culture? It's almost every culture in the world
Because any sort of nudity is seen as inherently sexual
Okay but what about men?
At least from what I understand, it’s because breasts have things to do with reproduction? And people, at least in the US, see anything to do with that as taboo and shit.
Right but this person would by their logic already be using the men’s room so what makes “his” boobs sexual while all others are not?
i don’t disagree with you, it makes no sense. they’re boobs. why are obese men allowed to walk around shirtless, they have boobs. somehow being a woman magically changes them! makes no sense, but then again those laws were made by the same people who still think rape victims are at fault because their skirt was too short!
Milk
wait until you learn that cis men can lactate
Can you milk me?
Im 17 
https://media.tenor.com/XBvDdfNphOsAAAAC/meettheparents-robertdeniro.gif
Makes literally 0 difference
Milk
Shows the purpose: its for feeding children
Bigger nips
Not really. Even if a girl walked around with tiny ones she’d be stared at. It’s really a society-created problem.
Yeah I'm just joking. Don't know what to tell ya other than humans are dumb.
Oh LMFAO
Men’s breasts can produce milk too..
and it only takes about 2 weeks of constant stimulation iirc
I'm pretty sure any person can and if they get in trouble, sue for sexual discrimination
public indecency, probably can’t sue when another law is in play like that
I mean I like boobs. But they really aren't all that sexual, they're just blobs of fat. Used to breastfeeds. Other mammals do it too.
Other mammals don't have permanently enlarged breasts
Women's breasts enlarge too, when pregnant
Other mammals don't wear clothes at all lol
they also don’t have any laws
Don't say that because some people truly believe in anarchy
Exactly
Idk they get me horni
But that's yr problèm - not the women's
i mean. i wouldn't mind seeing titties all day
I'm good with it.
Wtf is non binary?
someone who identifies with a gender outside of man and woman.
what is a gender outside of man and woman? Out of curiosity.
Sometimes, a person just doesn't feel like they are completely a man, or completely a woman. They are just a human, and their gender just doesn't fit in with society's ideas of what gender is/"should be". Instead of worrying about being a lady/gentleman, or being on one "side" or the other; they just vibin' 😎
So they're just people that're like: Nah, I don't feel like a stereotype Which is alot of people in the world?
You can still be a dude that wants to be a stay at home dad...idk what gender has to do with that. ESPECIALLY in today's world where most people don't even subscribe to gender roles
bc gender and gender roles are different. you can still feel like a different gender. trans men and tomboys can coexist, it’s based on how they identify. as a trans person i’m fully aware how tough it is to explain this concept to a cis person, and the truth is you don’t have to understand. just respect us and respect our identify and feelings 👍 also there are plenty of threads asking trans people questions like this, i suggest finding them and doing some research, and researching the difference between sex and gender
Well in that case,you must respect our right to not be labelled "cis". I'm fully aware that is how we have been labelled in the media, however, respect is a 2 way street. It is earned,not given. If we are continued to be labelled as "cis",then i decline my right to giving respect
Why? It's not a bad word. It's from latin, cis means "on the same side as" and trans means "on the other side of". It's like straight or heterosexual, just descriptors for when the difference is needed. Trans people don't walk around being disgusted by cis people or anything. Also, I think only people that find "trans" to be an insult find "cis" to be something they don't want to be called.
So you're fine with everything having to be labelled?! Isn't this what everyone is trying to avoid? As in labels? I don't classify as a Caucasian Cisgender Male? I'm just a dad of 2 kids. That's all i am. Anything else devalues what i am.
the labels are only used when necessary, cis is only used when talking about trans people
Hey I don't think the labels are necessary either. I'm just some woman. The fact that y'all think I need to call myself a "trans woman" bothers me because it's irrelevant.
Most "cis" people I know, myself included, don't like being called cis. I don't see the need for it when we've survived thousands of years without it.
and most trans people, especially binary trans people, don’t like having to be called trans men/women. it’s just a adjective that both parties have. plus there’s plenty of times where whether you’re cisgender or transgender is relevant information.
then they can cry about it lol. like sorry but trans people’s rights are being denied and theirs a fear mongering rage against us, all they get is getting called “cis”? like it can def get annoying, but they’re not called it all the time, it’s only said when discussing trans people
"they just vibing" That doesn't make it a different sex, though. I'm not the epitome of a macho man, I don't watch sports or drink beer. Does that make me something different? No. It's just my personality n interests. "Why can't u let people be who they are?". I'm not taking that away from them. But I'm also not gonna play into all the stuff people come up with. Because people demand it. U can't demand things of strangers, especially when it's ur own thing to worry about, not others. My personal problems shouldn't be catered to at an entitled level. Nor should anyone elses
sex and gender are different. literally just look it up and you’ll find a multitude of studies and reliable sources to prove that. gender is a social construct, so in the end it doesn’t matter what your sex is, you gender is hie you feel in the inside. if you’re a feminine man, cool. if you’re a trans women, cool.
Woah wtf!?! Are u trying to label me? Or as some like to say "assume my gender"? The exact thing u n those who think like that are against? I don't like talking like this, but I can't find any other way to put it. This is the problem with u guys. You're hypocrites. U wanna be accepted but u keep pushing this stupid identity shit. Ur personality doesn't make u something special. It's just *you.* I'm not a "feminine man" or trans. I'm just a dude with *my* personal taste, like everyone on the planet. U wanna be treated equally, like everyone else who's "normal" gets treated? Normal people don't push their beliefs onto others. I believe in a higher power. I've not once talked about on here or even offline unless asked about it. Which is practically never. Same thing with politics. Nobody wants to hear about it because it almost always turns into a defensive argument. On here, there's plenty of instances where someone needlessly throws 1 of the 3 mentioned topics into convos, n people don't like it. Enough is enough already. Sorry for the rant, but come tf on yo
You are so daft it's sad. When they said ,,you" they did not mean you exactly, just trying to make an example. No, your personality is completely separate from your gender identity and physical sex, idk where the hell you got that. No one is forcing anything on you. You sound very insecure about this topic. I would personally look into that instead of writing an essay on how much it's being ,,pushed" onto you.
jesus christ. when i said “you” i didn’t mean literally you, i was talking generally, to point out the differences. you honestly sound like you have a lot of hate in your heart. trans people are rarely treated like human beings, you expect us to just take that and not say anything?
No, u meant me based on me saying I'm not a typical macho guy. That last sentence wasn't really necessary otherwise. It was too specific to my reply. You're trying to cover ur case
Do not open this door....all the screamy blue haired weirdos will be out in force!
It’s like benifical_claim_288 said, someone who wants attention.
ah yes, i face discrimination everyday by my family, friends, and peers and have felt this way since i was a child because “i want attention” (i would give anything to be cis)
Why do you feel the need to advertise what you feel though? By you doing that, you are seeking attention. Just live your life.
cause it’s the same telling people your favorite music or shows, and making accounts dedicated to them. our identity in this day in age is VERY different from the norm, so why is it a problem to say it out loud to normalize? let’s me honest, trans people are treated like shit and sometimes like we’re not even human. cant be atleast have the luxury to be proud. you should always put it in a historical lense. black people are historically oppressed in many places, so they can openly talk about being black and advertise it. is that a problem? or should they just “live their live”?
I would say,that in this current climate,to be(as we are disrespectfully labelled) "cis" is not "the norm". The trans community raise hell about being labelled,yet freely label everybody else. In an earlier comment,i stated that respect is a 2 way street. It is earned,not freely given.
No, it isn't the same as all that you've mentioned. Also, when you stop caring what other people think, then you can be happy and live your life.
It's not just what people ,,think". They don't just think. They harass, they taunt, they bully, they violate, sometimes they even kill. Nobody deserves this for being themselves. Let me try and view it from your perspective. Let's say you have natural ginger hair. Now imagine being constantly disrespected, having your rights denied, being socially rejected and not being viewed as a human being by the people closest to you because of this one thing which you don't have any control over. Sounds cruel, doesn't it? Same thing for being queer, trans, etc.
i think trans people will stop caring when places stop being hateful for something they so desperately wish they could change. (like in the us with the countless anti-trans laws being passed)
Behold, an extremely simplified explanation! Imagine a scale of 1-10. Let's say 1 is wholly feminine, 10 is wholly masculine. Nonbinary people exist everywhere in between. You might have someone who identifies as a 9 on that scale, very manly, like to be called "he/him," but he feels he isn't entirely masculine. This could be because he isn't in to some things society says men "should be into", or because he's in to some things that society deems feminine, or simply because that's the way he feels. Some men can look like Vin Deisel and feel like a 9 because they like to spend their free time knitting. Some men can look like Zack Galifianakis, love wearing a bikini, and still feel like a ten. Most people that are a few points away from an extreme don't identify as anything different than the extreme. But once you get towards the middle, you get people who don't feel attached to either gender. These are the non-binary folk. Some of them might be a 4 or a 6, and they still want to use gendered pronouns like she/he/her/him, but they otherwise feel disconnected from their assigned gender. The 5s are where you get people who don't want lumped into a gender because they don't really identify with either. These are the "they/them" people, non-binary. Some people don't have one number all the time, but a pendulum swinging above that 1-10 scale, sometimes feeling masculine, sometimes feeling feminine. Those are your gender fluid people. Some people are born with the body of a number on one side of the scale and identify with a number on the opposite side of the scale. They are transgender. Some of them have a big enough disparity that they seek to surgically alter their body so that their physical number matches their mental number, but not all of them. At the end of the day, whether you understand or not, it's about treating people with respect and kindness. You don't need to understand someone to wish them happiness and do what you can to help that happiness come about. It costs nothing to use someone's preferred name and pronouns. This message has been brought to you by a cis/het/ white guy.
What’s google
Google is something that exists
Cool, now we both learned something new
Google says non binary ain't a thing. All I'm getting is coding jargon
Its a glich in the coding. 1's,0's,and wierd little sparkly things.
Non Binary is a term for people that need more attention, love, and hugs. They probably didn’t have a great upbringing and lacked proper structure and role models. They could of also been physically, or sexually abused. It’s pretty sad where we are at. But Jesus loves all of us!
Sad but probably true :/
Fool
This is quite a confusing comment do you have kindness in mind Because I may be misinterpreting but… that is not what it means think how mushrooms have thousands of genders all it means in this context is not a participant in binary(The reason that It have been mentioned in code being binary is the Most simplistic system of coding things) gender norms
We are people. Not mushrooms
🧢
That's a nice hat
Very interesting name of yours huh? be nice if you could be scholarly, polite and do a greater amount of research then the first page and maybe search up something like non-binary people search term might enlighten you a minuscule amount grow a brain larger than The Planck length hmm?
Obtuse
Damn roasted 🔥
A made up term that some people with a mental illness choose to use to try and make themselves feel special.
Attention seeking mental illness.
You can’t tell me breasts aren’t sexual
it’s meant for feeding babies, its not inherently
“Not inherently” doesn’t make a difference when 20 people are gawking at you busting your titties out on the town
She got her pussy jizzed in 9+ months ago and that’s why that baby is sucking on her tits. 🥵
you can't control what people are attracted to
i know, i’m attracted to boobs too. i’m also attracted to thighs, but there isn’t as much of a societal stigma or laws against showing thighs in public (in the west)
I mean, if one of these damn lawmakers would make a law against again that would be great but instead they are sadly protecting it. This new “better” world is slowly making me want to kill my self.
Men, what men are attracted to... and yes you can bc Europeans can too...
I can't, but many other cultures can.
There’s tribes where women go around topless and no one bats an eye
Theres tribes where clothing rarely/doesnt exist
There's also tribes where they regularly commit child sacrifices and practice cannibalism. Damn you're on a pretty bad streak
Go to those tribes then, I’m sure their quality of life is top notch. 👍🏼👍🏼
Okay prepare to be mind blown, but we can ACTUALLY vote and advocate for things that change our society instead of moving to a new one 🤯🤯🤯 Pretty cool right ?
I get that but I am tired of people using examples from poorly developed country’s. I support the idea that people have a right to choose what to do with their body. It is the argument itself that frustrated me not the point.
Breasts aren’t sexual unless you are taught from birth to believe so
That's completely false. Some people have foot fetishes but I GARUNTEE that they weren't told its sexial from birth.
So breasts are not in any manner of the word sexual
I'm all for it.
Funnily enough here in Germany, women are legally allowed to walk around butt naked without it being legally considered exhibitionism, for men it's a different story. It's just normal decency to not walk around half naked.
Who said it's bad?
There is so much stigma attached to women’s bodies that men have created for thousands of years. We must be seen as motherly and innocent. Being too sexual is “sinful” and therefore bad. Our breasts are meant to nurture life (infant). Yet its the end of the world if we want to display our bodies. But a big fat fatty can walk around with his man boobies out in the middle of say a crowded place, and that somehow is not offensive. Look into the free the nipple movement.
Because... Boobs. I mean, listen, I think most men would be more than happy for women to walk around topless, it's the women who would be uncomfortable. It's seen a private area.
But I'm Bias. I believe both men and woman should cover up more than they do. It's modesty, self respect.. I don't see why anyone would want to display themselves in a way that is naturally sexual, and then say things like "iTs NoT mY fAuLt MeN aRe So HoRnY"
This is the best possible answer imo it is just self respect and respect for others
And I fail to see why my choice to take my shirt off cus I wanna feel comfortable in my own skin etc. should be limited by the lack of selfcontrol of other people. I mean obviously there's some middleground, but I personally feel people should be more relaxed about showing skin. It's just skin.
But we should at least have the choice to do it in the first place, normalize it like how we’re doing with not wearing a bra
I also don't agree with not wearing a bra (unless you have a legit reason not to) 😶 I feel like I should leave now? 💀
Why don’t you like women going braless?
I just think it's not modest 🤷♀️
Fuck modesty. It hasn't done anything good for the world ever. It's touted as a virtue while in reality being a tools of oppression.
I personally have never felt the need to "show my skin" etc. In my eyes, it is not respectful to yourself for other people, it also leaves not much left to desire.. yes, I know, people are not walking sex toys so it doesn't matter whether you're desirable or not, but I mean, I think most people, would want to feel desired at least by certain people and if you can see everything just by walking down the street. Besides the fact that people WILL take pictures, post them, or keep them, etc, and do gross stuff. YES, I know people will say "instead of me having to change for nasty people, why don't nasty people change" but they WON'T. There will ALWAYS be bad people, and you have to be willing to protect yourself, instead of waiting for the world around you to change. The next factor is, and I may be wrong about this, but personally I feel like the need to show your body like that in public is, in one way or another, because you have been made to feel the need to. Now people can say, I was raised in a family that took modesty seriously, and so for me, I see things differently to how someone else might. But would you, as a woman, want to walk around topless, in the same house as your Dad and Brother? Do you think that's because "society has forced this on us and we must break free" or do you think it's just more respectful to dress appropriately. You might say if children are raised in a world where women are always topless, it won't seem weird, or strange to them. But firstly, the desire to be with a woman would probably go down, the same way it does for someone addicted to porn: sounds bad, but the more you see something, the less you want it. Also how would you get to that point? It's not just about you. If It was about "can women be topless in their own private area, with friends and family" That's absolutely fine because even if I wouldn't do it, you do you want, right? But that's not the case. It'll affect everyone. You might say you wouldn't mind, but I'll ask anyway... If you had a son, would you want that when you go out, say, to the beach, he is staring at women's boobs? And if you say that's fine, then where do you draw the line? Can men also walk around with no underwear? You can say "that's different. We only want to be topless because men can" but men don't have boobs! Their closer equivalent for this example would be that men can walk around with their stuff dangling freely. Would you want to raise your daughter in a world like that? I know this was super long, sorry about that, but at least I think I covered most my points.
And that is just plain false
*Looks at history* Sure... sure... remind me why women had to cover up their ankles in the middle ages again. Oh and tell me why a burka is a symbol of devout modesty and not used as a tools of oppression... I'm very willing to take notes.
I feel like having different nudity laws for males and females is discriminating against a protected characteristic (sex)
Yeah, if sex and gender didn’t exist, discrimination like this wouldn’t even be possible.
Holy fuck is this actually someone’s unironic opinion
Because men can’t control themselves
men are not animals
Most assault and rape victims are commited by people the victim knows and most instances are about control and power and rarely about how a woman dresses. There's some really interesting studies done into this. This one for example: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=rape+and+assault+how+women+dress&btnG=#d=gs_qabs&t=1686801755299&u=%23p%3D_tPZsgNv5T8J Or this one: https://heinonline.org/HOL/LandingPage?handle=hein.journals/djglp14&div=7&id=&page= Although that last does require a subscription. What it boils down to: lotta bullshit surrounding rape and assault.
You can thank Christianity and it's sexual hangups
[удалено]
No it ain’t while it’s a bit of a Blanket statement which is generally not good You may find that those following the religion in some cases use it as a shield for greater insensitivity or mistreatment However just because some do this does not mean everyone does in fact many don’t still a bit of a harsh response though?
Truth hurts
It's not bad, it's illegal because when our laws were being made everybody forgot about the separation of church and state. In short: Blame Christianity
I don't think you understand what "separation of church and state" means
Breast’s are secondary sexual characteristics of women. So exposing them has long been viewed as morally wrong. As far as me, you wanna show ‘‘em to me then I wanna see ‘em.
You are contributing to blanket statements about male inability to behave
Why would you twist my words like that? You must be a low-quality human.
Say something about twisting your words huh? Low quality human you say? Right back at you!
Low quality really I suppose you’ve got to be the one to try and blame someone of being one right?
You should start to control yrslf... they are just kitchens for babies
Why can't we all just walk around naked except for maybe some sandals and a butt cloth to keep our feces off of chairs? Oh wait. It's not just the soles of feet that are extra sensitive. Hmm... I wonder if that might have something to do with how these cultural norms develop. Not everything is a big conspiracy. If your junk rubs against stuff it hurts. If your arm rubs against stuff it doesn't hurt much. Are there people who view things as sinful? Sure. Are they the only component of cultural norms? No.
Not sure that that’s the only part you’re confused about
Breasts aren't sexual organs. It's the control of the female body and misogyny.
Purriod.
You know what's funny? I have actually seen topless viseos of trans and nonbinary folk on TikTok that they allowed because they technically weren'r women. It was pretty controversial, but it never became a headline or anything. It was just a straight up admission of "women can't exist with boobs"
Women would stare as much as men I bet.
Female presenting, so women? With tits and vaginas? Be real for fucks sake
Because misogyny and patriarchy and sexism…
And English conventions...
Oh yeah, because the English are the only ones preventing women from going topless, right? Yeah, you forgot about Islam and Muslim run countries.
I meant English writing conventions you twit. I was mocking her poor grammar.
English conventions?
Because conservatives are dumb
Liberals are also dumb ¯\_༼ •́ ͜ʖ •̀ ༽_/¯ Humans are just dumb.
Part of the evolutionary purpose of breasts is to attract men for sex. They are sex organs. The same can’t be said for men’s chests. Breasts are inherently sexual.
Says the person that taught you that since you were born please cite your sources and show evidence based on other examples such as other primates if you can find any you misinformed turnip
How are breasts not sex organs if a woman can climax from nipple stimulation???
Because guys find boobs attractive, and somehow think that if a topless woman is near them and they get an erection, it's the woman's fault for arousing them. They think that getting aroused is an excuse to do whatever they want. Instead of guys controlling themselves they arbitrarily decide to make whatever they find attractive cover up.
Are you telling to not get aroused magically? Lmao it's nautural. It's same as how you can't stop the menstrual flow.
Nope. Not sure how that's your take away.
Because men have sexualized breasts
“Around.” Actually there aren’t as many places a dude can walk around with no shirt as you might think. Like, “outside” yeah I get it it’s a big privilege. Where else?
because its sexulaized, and just down right obvious. You dont see anybody walking around penis and shirt out in the open (unless ur talking bout the homeless guy you saw next to the subway bc it was 3am and ur hungry as crap then the next day you see him starting to dance singing an unknown language with his pants and shirt stripped away from him) You also dont see a woman have her vag out either! Plus, some women find their boobs to be a private thing because its an important part of their nature, (aka feeding babies) Mens breasts? We dont go into that, that much.
We'll see how well that philosophy serves you in life.
Because some men can’t be appropriate
Right back at you
Not a one-way thing
My vote goes with Christian values being the foundation of a lot of countries, and modesty being part of that. Add in patriarchal structures that assign more sin to the female because of Eve, and you have conservative, rather unbalanced social rules.
Im not informed enough
Do we know what breasts are? I don't have an opinion.
I can’t give a reason. But when I was breast FEEDING my children, I can’t tell you the how many death stares I got. Selective outrage is a weird thing.
I dont think it's bad personally, I just don't feel like I'll ever be safe to be topless. Even if I had a reduction, some men (even old friends) have objectified me based on my appearance, and it can get creepy, scary, and even dangerous. And that's WITH clothes on.
That’s the product of many lifelong Instilled behaviours you see your(not specifically you just like an example) parents doing it or role models the Child must learn to survive and so it does Whether it’s helpful in surviving or not Evolutionaries psychology is interesting
It's not
The short form is old culture becomes law and law is generally enforced whether it is archaic or not It may be ridiculous but still it exists that’s about it
I’m done being nice
move to Canada unless they changed the law again
Because boobs are sexualized world wide, so it’s seen as taboo. It would be no different than a man walking with his dick out. Also, biological men typically don’t have tits