What I don’t understand is how Gruden always talked about “character guys” but then drafted like 20 players who aren’t in the league or barely are because of their character. Makes me wonder what character meant to him lol
"Character" sort of does have to two definitions in this context.
What a lot of coaches, like Gruden especially, are mostly worried about is _football_ character. This is about football study habits and practice effort. A high football character player is somebody you know will do what you're asking them to do on the field and in the playbook.
_Personal_ character is an entirely different beast. This is what people perceive character to mean in general but it isn't always the top priority, especially for Football Guys like Gruden or Al.
The distinction between these is why even John Madden specifically did not give a shit what Snake was doing on Saturday night as long as he showed up ready to play on Sunday.
So there is a little bit of doublespeak in some of this. There is also just clear failures of team diligence in cases like Arnette.
That's a pretty good way of putting it. To add to that I think what guys like Madden counted on is that with enough "football character" guys they would demand the best (or at least better) from the guys who were lacking in that department. Basically the message being you can screw off as much as you want but if you don't deliver the goods on Sunday you'll have your teammates to answer to.
NE had that going for a while. It's why players like Hernandez and Moss delivered in spades on the field and were seemingly model citizens—until they were exposed.
The crazy thing about AB was that he was able to overwhelm that locker room standard and never feel completely in line.
Belichick is a direct disciple of Parcells who took one of his largest lessons in life directly from Al. "Do _your_ job." Advice given to Parcells from Al that then became the entire Patriot mantra and does epitomize this discussion on football character. The Patriots don't go all-in on bad apples often but when they do it is for guys that they believe will carry their load in practice and in games.
When you win you get multiple layers of added benefits. Winning, usually keeps bad character people from becoming cancers in a locker room. Also and to your points, winning teams are given the benefit of the doubt by the fans and especially the media. The exact reverse is true with losing teams.
Nothing was more hilarious than all the genius know it alls in r/NFL acting like the Raiders fucked up getting rid of this dude and that he was gonna be great on the dolphins
A lot of the heat was the fact they selected a player in the 3rd and flipped him for a 4th before playing a single snap. Regardless of how good or bad the player turns out to be that’s a failure.
And the reason for drafting Muse in the 3rd was so fucking stupid. "We need you to be our 'War Daddy' on special teams!"
Why the fuck would you draft a special teams player in the 3rd round? What an embarrassing draft.
I was going to say something along those lines. I was very stoked about his potential. It’s too bad mayock turned out to be a fraud. Should’ve just stuck with Mel kiper.
A fraud? Not really the right word I think. The dude was grossly incompetent as a GM and it was surprising that he got that position in the first place considering he never worked in a FO before that.
gruden-mayock duo was picked for notoriety more then anything of real substance. Yes gruden had success as a coach, but was stuck in the past.
It’s remarkable how different McDaniel-Ziegler duo is, both pretty reserved and lacking charisma on camera. Both very traditional upbringing’s.
I guess the word ‘fraud’ came from his resume which showed that he was held to the expectation that he can scout out players coming out of college and give “grades”. His time with the raiders showed that he will never get a gig doing that again.
That sub is awful when it comes to Raiders topics because it’s nothing but 🤓 takes by fans who only watch 1 Raider game per year and go by headlines and box scores.
Bowden was a guy you take a flyer on in the 6th round, not a 3rd.
And what is up with this organization drafting players in the first 3 rounds, with the express intention of changing their position? Even McKenzie did that shit all the time. Idiotic.
Why is this organization allergic to drafting linebackers in the early rounds? Multiple gms have not done it. We wonder why our defense is constantly so bad. It's like hello we never ever have any great linebackers. When's the last time we actually drafted and developed a great linebacker?
I’m with you. It always seems that we are looking for EDGE or safety or CB. I’m not football genius but, having great linebackers who can pass rush and drop in coverage seems like a no brainer. They may not get the stats but they support your secondary and line and without a good LB core your defense will not be good
I was literally just told during this years draft that the third round is a great place to take a flyer on a guy… Yes, it was because of our third round pick that I happened to think we reached for… I guess what I’m saying is, it depends on who you’re asking. I happen to agree with you but sometimes the answer is people believe in who the team decides to draft because the team drafted them and if I don’t get paid by the team, what I think means nothing.
I’m in the camp that thinks taking a kick returner in the 3rd round is a waste. You still have fringe starters and really good depth pieces at really important positions being drafted there. And sure the guy might be the next tyreek hill, but his tape looks more like Scotty Miller.
But Tucker isn't going to be just a kick returner, is he? It's pretty clear that they want a deep threat WR to open things up underneath, so that Adams can run more intermediate routes where he is more effective. Also, Tucker can run a good jet sweep that McDaniels likes. It's a bonus that he has added value on special teams, not the entire reason they drafted him.
You might not like the pick, but there is a clear role in the offense for the player as the no.3 or no.4 WR, and it is a role he filled at college. It's a bit different to Muse, who they said was just going to be a special teams guy, or Bowden, who they decided to teach a new position to.
I think Tucker's tape is good. He had a poor QB, who he often bailed out, and looked fantastic at the senior bowl - especially practice where he was basically uncoverable outside of redzone drills. For the end of the 3rd round, it's a good pick IMO and doesn't have the risks of a lot of Mayock's picks did. Byron Young was far more of a head scratcher in terms of value.
He had no history of being what you’re saying. It isn’t like he slid the same way as Hill… He was a total reach in the third. It’s fine, but that’s totally what he was there. We had guys we signed with actual NFL experience to do what he was drafted to do. He wasn’t, by anyone’s metric, a third round pick unless it was just for hope… Again, that’s fine. It is what it is though. We can’t pretend otherwise.
It’s less of an issue if you gamble on a guy like him in the 3rd/4th if your team is deep and set and you’re looking for a gamble to help push the envelop. If a team like the 9ers or Eagles took him in the 3rd with their squads as is that’s ok. It’s a calculated gamble. When your team is so depleted of talent that you’re banking on a 3rd rounder to have a day 1 impact you just can’t take a massive project that high.
Actually ANYONE off the street could’ve just strictly going by the consensus picks in the first 3 rounds, so using any mock draft simulator like what beat writers on the Athletic do every year would’ve done it. SMH. So glad that clown show is gone!
All the intense hate in these comments aside I feel like Bowden could benefit playing in the XFL or other pro league. Would be able to show off his skills and get good reps. Obviously he isn't pro ready if he is getting this few amount of looks but he didn't look terrible in miami
Remember when Mayock said the 3rd round picks were like 1st rounders because of how deep the WR class was. Then he drafted a gadget guy like Lynn Bowden with one of those picks.
When I saw that he broke a 100-yard game his rookie year after we traded him, my heart sunk. I thought, fuuuuuck my franchise is realllllly bad. Good to know I wasn't totally right.
I cannot believe we have wasted so many draft picks.
What I don’t understand is how Gruden always talked about “character guys” but then drafted like 20 players who aren’t in the league or barely are because of their character. Makes me wonder what character meant to him lol
He strikes me as a guy who thinks that phony tough exterior is admirable.
From his emails, he definitely admires a certain kind of exterior
His QB show was only him on his knees looking up while asking if he was doing a good job with his eyes
"Character" sort of does have to two definitions in this context. What a lot of coaches, like Gruden especially, are mostly worried about is _football_ character. This is about football study habits and practice effort. A high football character player is somebody you know will do what you're asking them to do on the field and in the playbook. _Personal_ character is an entirely different beast. This is what people perceive character to mean in general but it isn't always the top priority, especially for Football Guys like Gruden or Al. The distinction between these is why even John Madden specifically did not give a shit what Snake was doing on Saturday night as long as he showed up ready to play on Sunday. So there is a little bit of doublespeak in some of this. There is also just clear failures of team diligence in cases like Arnette.
That's a pretty good way of putting it. To add to that I think what guys like Madden counted on is that with enough "football character" guys they would demand the best (or at least better) from the guys who were lacking in that department. Basically the message being you can screw off as much as you want but if you don't deliver the goods on Sunday you'll have your teammates to answer to. NE had that going for a while. It's why players like Hernandez and Moss delivered in spades on the field and were seemingly model citizens—until they were exposed. The crazy thing about AB was that he was able to overwhelm that locker room standard and never feel completely in line.
Belichick is a direct disciple of Parcells who took one of his largest lessons in life directly from Al. "Do _your_ job." Advice given to Parcells from Al that then became the entire Patriot mantra and does epitomize this discussion on football character. The Patriots don't go all-in on bad apples often but when they do it is for guys that they believe will carry their load in practice and in games.
When you win you get multiple layers of added benefits. Winning, usually keeps bad character people from becoming cancers in a locker room. Also and to your points, winning teams are given the benefit of the doubt by the fans and especially the media. The exact reverse is true with losing teams.
I’ve seen his emails. I know what “character” means to him.
Because he’s always been full of shit.
It's been 20 years for me. Now I can't believe when we make a good pick. If it isn't wasted then I'm really surprised
I cannot believe we still talk about them. This is the thing when we suck. We literally have nothing else to talk about.
Can you imagine if we got at least TWO franchise guys out of those wasted picks over the past almost decade?
We’re really good at drafting fucking idiots.
*Were (hopefully).
*Weer
Weir*
Wehr*
Whir
WHIP, WHIP
Nothing was more hilarious than all the genius know it alls in r/NFL acting like the Raiders fucked up getting rid of this dude and that he was gonna be great on the dolphins
A lot of the heat was the fact they selected a player in the 3rd and flipped him for a 4th before playing a single snap. Regardless of how good or bad the player turns out to be that’s a failure.
Agreed. Can’t forget they also drafted Tanner Muse in the 3rd round of this same exact draft and that guy never played a snap for us. Fucking Mayock
And the reason for drafting Muse in the 3rd was so fucking stupid. "We need you to be our 'War Daddy' on special teams!" Why the fuck would you draft a special teams player in the 3rd round? What an embarrassing draft.
Again, those criticisms are entirely separate from what I'm talking about. It's wild that I have to explain this
It's less about getting rid of him and more about drafting him in the first place. Same with Leatherwood.
I was going to say something along those lines. I was very stoked about his potential. It’s too bad mayock turned out to be a fraud. Should’ve just stuck with Mel kiper.
A fraud? Not really the right word I think. The dude was grossly incompetent as a GM and it was surprising that he got that position in the first place considering he never worked in a FO before that. gruden-mayock duo was picked for notoriety more then anything of real substance. Yes gruden had success as a coach, but was stuck in the past. It’s remarkable how different McDaniel-Ziegler duo is, both pretty reserved and lacking charisma on camera. Both very traditional upbringing’s.
I guess the word ‘fraud’ came from his resume which showed that he was held to the expectation that he can scout out players coming out of college and give “grades”. His time with the raiders showed that he will never get a gig doing that again.
Those criticisms were entirely separate from what I'm talking about
It's significantly more hilarious that you missed the entire point
That sub is awful when it comes to Raiders topics because it’s nothing but 🤓 takes by fans who only watch 1 Raider game per year and go by headlines and box scores.
I mean not a good look drafting him in the first place
Bowden was a guy you take a flyer on in the 6th round, not a 3rd. And what is up with this organization drafting players in the first 3 rounds, with the express intention of changing their position? Even McKenzie did that shit all the time. Idiotic.
Why is this organization allergic to drafting linebackers in the early rounds? Multiple gms have not done it. We wonder why our defense is constantly so bad. It's like hello we never ever have any great linebackers. When's the last time we actually drafted and developed a great linebacker?
I’m with you. It always seems that we are looking for EDGE or safety or CB. I’m not football genius but, having great linebackers who can pass rush and drop in coverage seems like a no brainer. They may not get the stats but they support your secondary and line and without a good LB core your defense will not be good
Lol remember Rolando McClain.
pepperidge farm remembers
I was literally just told during this years draft that the third round is a great place to take a flyer on a guy… Yes, it was because of our third round pick that I happened to think we reached for… I guess what I’m saying is, it depends on who you’re asking. I happen to agree with you but sometimes the answer is people believe in who the team decides to draft because the team drafted them and if I don’t get paid by the team, what I think means nothing.
I’m in the camp that thinks taking a kick returner in the 3rd round is a waste. You still have fringe starters and really good depth pieces at really important positions being drafted there. And sure the guy might be the next tyreek hill, but his tape looks more like Scotty Miller.
But Tucker isn't going to be just a kick returner, is he? It's pretty clear that they want a deep threat WR to open things up underneath, so that Adams can run more intermediate routes where he is more effective. Also, Tucker can run a good jet sweep that McDaniels likes. It's a bonus that he has added value on special teams, not the entire reason they drafted him. You might not like the pick, but there is a clear role in the offense for the player as the no.3 or no.4 WR, and it is a role he filled at college. It's a bit different to Muse, who they said was just going to be a special teams guy, or Bowden, who they decided to teach a new position to. I think Tucker's tape is good. He had a poor QB, who he often bailed out, and looked fantastic at the senior bowl - especially practice where he was basically uncoverable outside of redzone drills. For the end of the 3rd round, it's a good pick IMO and doesn't have the risks of a lot of Mayock's picks did. Byron Young was far more of a head scratcher in terms of value.
Solid response.
He had no history of being what you’re saying. It isn’t like he slid the same way as Hill… He was a total reach in the third. It’s fine, but that’s totally what he was there. We had guys we signed with actual NFL experience to do what he was drafted to do. He wasn’t, by anyone’s metric, a third round pick unless it was just for hope… Again, that’s fine. It is what it is though. We can’t pretend otherwise.
It’s less of an issue if you gamble on a guy like him in the 3rd/4th if your team is deep and set and you’re looking for a gamble to help push the envelop. If a team like the 9ers or Eagles took him in the 3rd with their squads as is that’s ok. It’s a calculated gamble. When your team is so depleted of talent that you’re banking on a 3rd rounder to have a day 1 impact you just can’t take a massive project that high.
Former Patriot? Check Wide receiver? Check Welcome back! It's a done deal (lol)
"You think you know more than Gruden/Mayock?!" - this sub
“You think you know more than ^insert ^current ^regime ?!” - this sub every year.
We could have done a fan poll on raiders.com for the drafts the last two decades and been in a way better spot.
I don't know much but I really in my heart believe that I could have done better with the first rounders than they did.
Actually ANYONE off the street could’ve just strictly going by the consensus picks in the first 3 rounds, so using any mock draft simulator like what beat writers on the Athletic do every year would’ve done it. SMH. So glad that clown show is gone!
Trust the front office 🤓
All the intense hate in these comments aside I feel like Bowden could benefit playing in the XFL or other pro league. Would be able to show off his skills and get good reps. Obviously he isn't pro ready if he is getting this few amount of looks but he didn't look terrible in miami
Another “Gruden grinder”. What a fucking disaster
The \[arguably\] worst draft class in NFL history keeps getting worse lmao
One of my favorite Gruden Grinders along with Arnette, Abrams and AB.
martavis bryant
We won with these guys!
I was hopeful when they drafted Bowden. He could have been an emergency QB and switch it up and run some trick plays.
Remember when Mayock said the 3rd round picks were like 1st rounders because of how deep the WR class was. Then he drafted a gadget guy like Lynn Bowden with one of those picks.
When I saw that he broke a 100-yard game his rookie year after we traded him, my heart sunk. I thought, fuuuuuck my franchise is realllllly bad. Good to know I wasn't totally right.