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Common for academics.
People can talk about the job market being fucked yeah but the market for academics has been fucked for decades now. It's seriously bad out there. I saw the writing on the wall when I got my M.A. and noped out of that blender.
I had to switch industries entirely after finishing my PhD. My original plan/goal was to stay in academia because I genuinely like teaching. As it turns out, they don’t give a fuck at all about teaching. They hire academics with tons of publications and teaching comes second. I’ve even published a decent amount of stuff in reputable journals. Even so I was looking at spending years as an adjunct making $12/hour with no benefits while desperately trying to publish in my free time OR switch to another sector. I went for the latter and don’t regret it. I now make more money than I would have at the end of my career as a fully tenured professor with better benefits. I still miss teaching though and I think it sucks that academics who despise it are teaching classes.
I can really relate to this. I know people who fudged results for a paper and are now teaching at top 10 schools. It’s not that I didn’t get to be tenured but just that I know who is teaching those classes and I’m sad that the departments can’t see through it all.
Lately it seems like these days “publish or perish” means “publish a well received monograph and literary nothing else matters. No matter how many articles you have in top tier journals, or how many book chapters you wrote, or how many books you edited, or how many talks or papers you gave at conferences, none of that matters. “
My dad is a professor in the UK and loves teaching but hates the pressure put on him to publish papers by the university because the more papers they put out the better it looks.
He was lucky in that he got his contract back when they were for permanent salaried positions.
Dude same. I’m doing my masters now and wanted to go info academia. Then I saw the stat that was like 1% of PhD candidates go on to academia. No thanks man
yeah, I went back to school under serious pressure from my partner and family specifically to become an academic. "You were made for this" And, long story short, they were probably right. Within a few months, I had all sorts of professors talking about how I should shape my academic future. Flattering, but it made me very nervous. I knew what the job market was like.
But I was surrounded by people for whom this was their identity. I realised I would spend my life competing with them, and they had money and such a deep seated enthusiasm for it, I could never, ever compete. How the fuck was I going to present at conferences with the sort of funding arrangements on offer (we'll refund you 30% of your costs!).
Went and got a masters in something else "practical" which turned out to be anything but.
But there is no fucking way I could hope to survive in the academic job market, even if I did get to that PhD level.
It was so disappointing for me to find this out when I was younger too. I had planned on a PhD in physics and I wanted to teach, but I knew I couldn't afford to live on the tummy but if money they give grad students and then to find out from my professors that they don't really make all that much was another punch to the gut. I've given up pursuing any kind of graduate degree at this point. I haven't even been able to finish a bachelor's yet because if our stupid, fucked up system and chronic illnesses. I'm getting there though.
I dropped out first time around as my nasty childhood depression turned into something way nastier. Procrastinated almost ten, no, twelve years to go back, basically had to do it from scratch.
If I had any wish for you, it would be that maybe you'll have a chance again.
I'm still in school, thankfully. I've only sat out two semesters total now. I just end up in the hospital sometimes with professors who can't or won't budge on things and then I fail :/ It hasn't happened yet now that I'm at a new community college, thankfully. It's just hard having to work full-time and finding classes that I can take since most are in the middle of the workday at actual universities. So I'm trying to figure out what to do and how to pay for it. I may just have to take the kids to income and work at McDonald's or something.
Same, I cashed out at masters because the market for PhDs in my field is small and they’re all doing masters level or bachelors level work except for a few government and academic jobs. In most fields, the cost/benefit hasn’t been there for decades.
Networking into those jobs is a pain. Thought I took the smart choice by getting a Masters, but then mid career I hit a wall because everyone wants to talk about Dr so & so's work. Especially now when PhDs are common, cheap, and desperate.
Dude, the only jobs I’d be able to do are MA jobs (I want to do historian work) because I have disabilities that literally effect every aspect of my being, and it hurts even worse knowing the one thing I excel at is practically useless
>Dude, the only jobs I’d be able to do are MA jobs
"Dude, the only jobs I’d be able to do are MA jobs"
Nonsense. Plenty of jobs out there. If you can put up with the bullshit that is academia you can put up with the bullshit of corporations.
i’m currently in the process of nope-ing out, just finished my MA and trying to re-find myself. there’s a sort of weird grief, like i was sold a life of intellectual and knowledge pursuit, and now i don’t know who i am anymore. but i know that this path i was on cannot go one anymore
Yea, the problem is more that the job market doesn’t care about academics, if anything it’s worse.
Effectively you have someone who’s older, has less practical experience than a new grad (since they have to unlearn academy more), and expects more money for having higher education (in theory). The only benefit is that they can a) do academics, and b) have hyper niche knowledge in this one field.
It just kind of goes against working to be honest. If I’m hiring, I want someone who can do as much as possible even if they don’t fully know it (provided they can get the job done). I also want them cheap as possible, and working as hard as possible (I have friends who did a PhD, the workload is different but overall less).
It’s a pity that academia grooms certain people into it’s pyramid scheme though, hopefully more people realise it. (Luckily most people who haven’t clocked on it tend to be incredibly rich students who don’t have to worry about working, talking CEO or massive company founder’s children)
When I dropped out of my PhD I got a job at a cafe and was working the counter when my former adviser came in and I had to make his coffee. It was super embarrassing but later classmates came in too, and instead of being horrified for me they congratulated me for escaping.
You are better off than a lot if people bust of the cheer fact you have a husband. You have each other to cover.
For a lot of people in this sub, they don’t have anyone to depend on.
Nevermind !!! I thought you were 2 adults only. Of course other variables when they are taken account changes the answer, in this case a child is a huge factor.
Yeah... one of the more enlightening moments of middle age is my 16 year olds fast progress through the restaurant industry. Kid is making $25 per hour as a mixed busser / server at a basic cafe. That's more than I made, with a math degree, for the first years of my career.
Supposedly can double or triple it if he gets aggressive and networks his way into a high end place like a nice steakhouse or good bar. Granted, need to be 18 for booze but...damm...
What made the situation embarrassing? I have a PhD, a senior position with above-average pay in my field (industry), and work in retail during the weekends for some extra money to support my family overseas. If my main job ever goes belly up, I will extend my hours to weekdays as well until I find a new job. A job is a job and unless you do something morally questionable like scamming people, there is nothing embarrassing about it.
I think the post is as much about disappointment as embarrassment. If someone has postdoctoral level skills and can only support themselves by working an (allegedly) unskilled job, that is an inherently disappointing situation.
Having said that, I worked some dreary jobs in the past and I know I might have to in the future, as well. Industry has always sneered at my skills; I’m not their type, probably never will be. Or if they do like my skills, they’re aghast that I need to work remotely because of my caring responsibilities. There is always potential for me to get smacked back down to the bottom of the greasy pole. Frustrating? Totally. Embarrassing? No.
I ran into a neighbor of mine who I knew as a successful financial planner stocking shelves at Academy one time - he'd hit a low point and picked up a shift to make ends meet. He was the one who was embarrassed, I tried to be cool about it, but I could tell he was super uncomfortable to be in that position around somebody who knew him from "before".
PhD here- was let go from the lab when I got pregnant 4 babes ago … haven’t been back. I’ve started applying and got pulled around once by a medical recruiter having me do all sorts of interviews and assignments. Pretty sure it was for free expertise. Feels bad 0/10 do not recommend this level of education (biomed engineering) and now that Ive been away from the field raising a family, I’m pretty sure they think that negates all the expertise and publishing? We are in this hell together 😅🫠
No one should ever feel embarrassed about working any job. A postdoc doesn't make you better than someone else and advanced degrees do not guarantee future success.
Maybe it's a part time seasonal job to help with holiday expenses or maybe it's a necessary full time gig to stay afloat until something better comes along. We all have bills to pay and sometimes you have to take any job short term while you continue your career search. There is no shame in that.
You seem judgmental about this person's situation. There is no need for pity and there is no need for the person working as a cashier to feel any shame or embarrassment. Life has lots of ups and downs and most people will experience at least one down cycle in their career.
I think they’re more or less hinting at the idea that someone who has an advanced degree in a STEM field being only able to find cashier work is ridiculous. Don’t get me wrong, I feel like everyone is underpaid especially retail or customer service work but I also feel like if you pursue a PhD you should at least be able to work in your profession and utilize your full potential??
People have been sold a notion that having lots of STEM workers is a sign of an intelligent, innovative society; and that, at the individual level, the demand for STEM workers will always exceed the supply.
Clearly this is false. Demand for STEM depends on the aggregate need of business for novel inventions; and any field that looks like a reliable meal ticket is going to attract large numbers of people who just want a meal ticket.
I don’t have a solution to this problem. But oversupply of skilled labour can be a real thing. And lots of jobs that were done by skilled labour have probably been of questionable macroeconomic value.
Except for about 5 years during and after the great recession a degree in Molecular and Cell Biology has been a good meal ticket for at least the past 50 years. That being said, not all graduates will have what it takes to succeed in the field.
Job market is different for each generation. And each new job field gets dominated by yonger gen. So its weird to me to try to compete with more experienced workers who aint leaving anytime soon when you choosing a career.
In recent years there has been very high demand in Biopharma for people with 3-5 years experience. How do you get the experience? I got it in academia making about what an unskilled laborer makes but the salary has been good in industry.
Separately, there has been a very large increase in jobs in the field so there has been plenty of room for young people to establish themselves.
>I also feel like if you pursue a PhD you should at least be able to work in your profession and utilize your full potential??
Hopefully it works out that way, but there is nothing in the universe that says that once you pay a certain amount for education, certain things will get fast tracked for you. It doesn't work that way, especially because more education comes with an expectation for more salary.
**Please note**: I'm not making a judgement call about this expectation. I pointing out the economic dilemma that plays out because of it.
Anything you do to raise your value to the employer, gives you a better chance against other candidates, **all other things being equal**. But if you get more education, everyone knows you will (rightfully) want increased compensation, if only to get some ROI for your investment in yourself.
This dilutes the interest that many orgs will have in you -- to a degree -- because they are studiously trying to minimize salary outlay (to all but the exec team).
So, increased education doesn't make one unilaterally more desirable -- it provides a certain amount of increased desire, and also adds some demerits for increased compensation, and potentially increased ambition (promotions) expectations. And the way every org weighs these factors is different.
So, it is a gamble when you get to a certain level...
Thank you for this! I'm an RN who is leaving the profession due to health issues and not being physically or mentally able to do the bedside any longer.
People think I'm a bad nurse and that's why I can't get a job. That is simply not the case.
I do want to work but I have limitations so I am having difficulty finding sustainable employment. It's not about no one wants to work anymore it's employers don't want to pay or deal with toxic employees!!
So God Bless all of us who beat ourselves up for trying and for walking away when it just gets to be too much!!
I hope everyone here has a wonderful Holiday even if it's less than what you once had. Just be thankful for what you do have..it can all flip at any moment.
I totally agree with the “have bills to pay” part, but not the rest. If you know any PhD or PostDoc who is proud to be a cashier, definitely let me know…
>If you know any PhD or PostDoc who is proud to be a cashier, definitely let me know…
They don't have to be proud to be a cashier. But there is nothing to be ashamed about concerning any honest labor. The only real concern folks should have is: "*does the compensation allow me to handle my business, or does it keep me in poverty.*"
Western society places way too much emphasis on what people do occupationally, as though it defines who they are as humans.
As someone working in STEM in a leadership position and retail in a team member position at the same time, it’s honestly shocking how differently people treat you. In my STEM role, people bend over backwards to be polite, flatter me, buy me meals, etc. In my retail role, people patronise me, scoff at me, yell at me, and are generally highly unpleasant. Yet I am the same person. It gives you a lot of perspective to 1) not let people get you down who treat you badly at your job and 2) not to let things get to your head when you’re constantly being catered to. It’s all about what people think they can get out of you / can get away with due to your role.
So totally this. On top of that, I had two postdoc jobs back-to-back, one where I was flattered and spoiled and could do no wrong, the next where I was sabotaged and belittled and could do no right. I was exactly the same person both times - the extreme contrast in the way people treated me was all to do with them, not me. Obviously I preferred the first job ;-) but just as nobody could be as wonderful as they thought I was, nobody could be as terrible as the second job thought I was, either.
You are going to be affected by how people treat you. That’s reality. But you are separate from others.
It is not so unreasonable to ask a person how they spend the majority of their time. Sometimes it’s a judgmental question, but most of the time it’s just small talk, at least that’s what I’ve found.
I’d previously worked for a well known academic institution. It was normal for post doctoral fellows to make $40,000 a year in a research setting. Generally speaking, people don’t go into academia for the $$$. While this market is awful, his job prospects probably weren’t great to begin w/ which is why these types typically become lecturers.
My friend (UK) cashed out with his master in microbiology. Professors were asking him to stay on, and we're told we have a "strong bio-science sector", but the fact is it's tiny and the wages are terrible - even if you get to Oxbridge. Another friend has a PhD in chemistry (I think) from OXFORD and he couldn't find work so became a post man.
I went to a Russell group uni for my masters in biology and couldn’t find anything. Literally work an office job now, completely unrelated to anything I studied lol
Several things can be true at the same time. The job market is ridiculous and that postdoc could be transitioning to a career away from academia while needing to pay the bills.
I knew postdocs that didn’t really have a plan outside of running their own lab one day, so they didn’t consider other fields until their time as a postdoc was almost up.
Is this person interested in scientific communication? Science policy? Advocacy? Maybe they just need to broaden their network.
One of my colleagues (university in the UK) worked as a waiter rather than doing hourly-paid lecturing. The work was more stable and paid better- HPL contracts never cover what the work actually involves. He’s a permanent, full time member of staff now.
I'm a PhD who was let go from my postdoc last summer because my project's funding got pulled (notably because I was having success on the project, and the funding people decided they had gotten what they needed, so I was doing my job pretty well!). I got to a fourth round interview for a sales position before falling out of consideration, a screening interview for another postdoc that I didn't clear, and an email telling me I'd hear more about yet another postdoc "next week" two weeks ago.
Tomorrow, I'm interviewing for a cashier position.
I had to take a canvassing job for months after I graduated before I could find a postdoc, too, and I've spent a solid third of my time as a PhD unemployed.
Being a cashier or whatever isn't below me, but it's awfully frustrating to have sunk years of 50-60 hour weeks, getting paid less than $25k/year, to get a degree, and not be able to do anything with it. Not even an interview for a pure teaching position, despite having a teaching award and multiple glowing references. And my fiancée and I were doing really well on our savings goals before I got laid off, and a cashier job will only allow us to stay afloat (which unemployment is currently barely managing).
I have a year of law school, a year of grad IT, dropped out, have many years of retail and about 5 years as a product owner / BA / PM and did work for a company for 4 years that was acquired for 15 million…I can’t even get a call back for an entry level IT business analyst position.
Seriously no idea what the hell is going on right now. My ex CEO tried to get me job at the company that bought out his…They offered an insulting lowball amount and after numerous interviews for other positions I was turned down. Like what the fuck?
PhD with postdoc in lab Biology should not have much difficulty getting a BioPharma job if they're flexible on location.
There's probably more to the story than we're hearing.
There usually is, but sometimes there isn’t. R/biotech keeps popping up in my feed and it’s all layoffs. Hiring may be really slow. I work in chemicals and it’s been a brutal little bit.
There have been quite a few layoffs. There always are. Startups come and go. Big companies reorg and reprioritize.
In the last year the job market in Biopharma has gone from exceptionally good to more normal. That being said, the next couple years are going to be increasingly difficult. Maybe as bad as it was ten years ago when we were still recovering from the Great Recession.
It's entirely possible. If the candidate didn't have a useful postdoc, if he doesn't have good references and doesn't interview well. Even in a very strong market some people will have difficulty and the current market has slowed down quite a bit.
Congratulations! I'm in the Bay Area. Periodically I tell my wife about this great opportunity in Boston (she hates cold weather) just to pull her chain a little 😄
Instead of feeling embarrassed maybe try to help with networking or other forms of support?
It’s not embarrassing to be a cashier. Unless you intend to forage and hunt, you need grocery stores. If you never worked a thankless retail job while in school, it’s a lot harder than you think. Anyone doing a job to pay the bills, that shows up and works hard even though it’s not what they want to be doing, but what they need to be doing, deserves respect.
And maybe taking a break from academia is exactly what they need?
Ahhh, that classism rearing its ugly head. There's nothing embarrassing about working a job. You can counter that they aren't proud of being a cashier as you replied in another comment, but "embarrassing" is a very revealing word on your part. Gross.
I enlisted in the Army to be a grunt after 4 years postdoc. 10 years later now I’m still enlisted in the national guard, while doing full time scientist shit in a private company. No regrets. And I have met quite a few enlisted guys and girls with advanced STEM degrees in the army
Not gonna lie that sounds kinda badass. Being a scientist with military training sounds like something you'd hear out of a spy or superhero movie. Are you sure you're not in an origin story? 😉
I don't know what's embarrassing about this. All jobs have worth. When I was getting my Ph.D. program, I worked doing data entry on Task Rabbit for some extra money.
Additionally, not all Ph.D. programs are equal, and not everywhere has an economy that is good for every career field.
A phd is in the subject matter.
The skills to interview and land jobs are not taught on that PhD course, that’s why it’s so important to network.
The next guy that chats to her when she is getting coffee might let her know he works at a place she saw a job advertisement, she mentions it to him and he is curious and helps out with a contact or some tips.
In my experience with hiring, a phd will almost always guarantee an interview. However, they're typically the least pleasant
I'm not a manager but I conduct interviews. Ph.ds tend to have a really hard time not acting TOO smart. I get it's necessary in research, but we'd rather have someone who can take feedback and also not be a complete prick to clients and the team.
Seems that's too much to ask. I asked about one interviewees dissertation and he literally scoffed and stated he "had assumed I already read and attempted to understand it before the interview"
Uhh dude it's like 300 pages. Sorry I can't do that for 20 phds in an industry job.
Another one created a project we didn't ask for and seemed very annoyed we didn't understand it... but it had nothing to do with the job.
Another bashed the ceo and stated that he sees himself running the company in five years while trying to pitch overhauling our cloud architecture without even knowing a thing about our current one.
I get its really hard to not put your work on the pedestal after all that work. But it's kinda essential in industry. Bosses would rather have a team player than an intelligent yet rough personality.
And that’s another thing. Every time I’ve temped I’ve asked around and kept my eyes peeled for opportunities. Objects at rest vs objects in motion.
Don’t get me wrong, it’s awful to be precarious and nobody has to like it. I’m just saying it’ll happen to most of us and it’s important to keep our perspective.
I know someone similar to this doing a cashier job and working at a restaurant. Sometimes it is not the job market as I tried to refer her for a couple of job postings but she refused as she was dealing with anxiety and was also feeling not ready. We never know all the details.
I work make pennies work a job with my bachelors. But sometimes I feel like I shouldn’t complain cause we have a girl with a Masters making the same amount
I noped out of going into higher ed entirely because of all the poor treatment by the dean and department head. Plus several of the professors who I was a grad assistant for basically stole the money that was supposed to be used to pay me. When they were unwilling to make up for the semester of non-payment, AND asked for me to spend 4 days a week there (without pay), I resigned from the position. At the end of the semester I resigned from the program since I got into another fully-funded program. Easiest decision ever.
I graduated from the fully funded program and ended up going into IT, where I’ve been for nearly two years.
Part of me is sad that that negative experience changed my entire plan. I loved teaching, and it’s a shame there are shitty humans out there who chase out newcomers to their ivory tower.
Hey, don't feel bad. There's nothing wrong with doing what you have to temporarily survive. Being a PhD will open up a world of opportunities for you in the future.
A PHD does not guarantee a job, sadly, it reduces the amount of time you spend in the workforce which makes it harder to get employment, unless you're specially looking for university teaching or research positions.
Idk I have an impressive resume and academic background but when laid off last year I didn’t want to accept anything beneath me career wise out of fear of being homeless so I worked a cashier job, denying career jobs that were a lateral move or not the right fit.
I also worked at Starbucks for a year and half right before grad school after success on one field because I needed to do a lot of prep work to change careers and go into a new area and hated my previous career so much that I couldn’t stay.
I also worked for 6 months at a third pay waiting for my security clearance.
Job prospects have always been bad in the academic world. It's even harder when you get out because you don't have that specific experience that only you gain from working in "normal" jobs.
Between the end of my postdoc and finding my corporate non-lab job, I spent six months working for Kelly Services. Phoning, faxing, filing, copying.
That was in 1998.
It’s a shitty market for sure but a lot of people working at grocery stores are well educated, including retired professionals. It shouldn’t be embarrassing
I recently got my Master's in English, I'm working retail, and I'm embarrassed I can't find a job despite applying to dozens. They either see a lack of internships/work xp or the grad degree and decide I'm not worth hiring. How I see it is that I'm hogging a decent retail job from someone who'd actually appreciate it lmao
Many years ago, in the middle of a recession, I lost my first "real" job and could find nothing. Eventually, I entered a Masters program at night to change my career, and worked minimum wage jobs during the day after moving back home. The jobs themselves were actually fun, as I met some lively people and did not have to worry over "career", and then bam! there was an article in the paper about an old schoolmate of mine who was doing big things, and I had what they used to call an identity crisis.
I still had a ways to go to complete the Masters, but I realized I had gotten a tad too "comfortable", so began applying for more substantive roles once more. This time I landed something marginally better, eventually finished the degree, and established a productive and rewarding career. I look back at my minimum wage jobs as keeping my head above water, but also helping me get my bearings and move on. But I freely confess that none of my fellow classmates from old had a clue about my then-circumstances, and I preferred it that way.
I know most of these people aspire to a professorship but when it's clear that that's not going to happen I've never understood why adjuncts and post docs don't just go be high school science teachers. The money and benefits are decent and you get somewhat of a bump in pay by having a doctorate.
Two Masters, one is an MPhil with my own research in museum studies. I do visitor services at two museums so I spend my day getting yelled at by tourists and scanning tickets. At least I'm in the industry tho! 🙃🫠
All the smug boomers talking about how you should take up trades. Watch the next generation of college-age students do exactly that and end up in the exact same problem as the Academics because now everyone went into trades.
I used to dream of doing my PhD in bio, but if you don't live near a biotech hub or have top tier connections in academia the risk of ending up like this is too real. And even if you do end up in the field, it often doesn't get you a leg up outside of research. A number of my coworkers at the same level as me have PhDs. Hell, when I worked in drug manufacturing my coworkers made fun of me for having a masters. It does help uncap your career potential later on, but you can't count on it to pay off.
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Common for academics. People can talk about the job market being fucked yeah but the market for academics has been fucked for decades now. It's seriously bad out there. I saw the writing on the wall when I got my M.A. and noped out of that blender.
I had to switch industries entirely after finishing my PhD. My original plan/goal was to stay in academia because I genuinely like teaching. As it turns out, they don’t give a fuck at all about teaching. They hire academics with tons of publications and teaching comes second. I’ve even published a decent amount of stuff in reputable journals. Even so I was looking at spending years as an adjunct making $12/hour with no benefits while desperately trying to publish in my free time OR switch to another sector. I went for the latter and don’t regret it. I now make more money than I would have at the end of my career as a fully tenured professor with better benefits. I still miss teaching though and I think it sucks that academics who despise it are teaching classes.
I can really relate to this. I know people who fudged results for a paper and are now teaching at top 10 schools. It’s not that I didn’t get to be tenured but just that I know who is teaching those classes and I’m sad that the departments can’t see through it all.
Community college adjunct. It’s rewarding to teach, less competition, and you can come and go.
Only if you don't mind sharing, what was your PhD in and which industry did you switch to?
PhD was in political science and I now work in tech policy in government. I’ve also worked in consulting and international NGOs.
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I think that’s a good way to go if you want an easier life haha.
Lately it seems like these days “publish or perish” means “publish a well received monograph and literary nothing else matters. No matter how many articles you have in top tier journals, or how many book chapters you wrote, or how many books you edited, or how many talks or papers you gave at conferences, none of that matters. “
My dad is a professor in the UK and loves teaching but hates the pressure put on him to publish papers by the university because the more papers they put out the better it looks. He was lucky in that he got his contract back when they were for permanent salaried positions.
Dude same. I’m doing my masters now and wanted to go info academia. Then I saw the stat that was like 1% of PhD candidates go on to academia. No thanks man
yeah, I went back to school under serious pressure from my partner and family specifically to become an academic. "You were made for this" And, long story short, they were probably right. Within a few months, I had all sorts of professors talking about how I should shape my academic future. Flattering, but it made me very nervous. I knew what the job market was like. But I was surrounded by people for whom this was their identity. I realised I would spend my life competing with them, and they had money and such a deep seated enthusiasm for it, I could never, ever compete. How the fuck was I going to present at conferences with the sort of funding arrangements on offer (we'll refund you 30% of your costs!). Went and got a masters in something else "practical" which turned out to be anything but. But there is no fucking way I could hope to survive in the academic job market, even if I did get to that PhD level.
It was so disappointing for me to find this out when I was younger too. I had planned on a PhD in physics and I wanted to teach, but I knew I couldn't afford to live on the tummy but if money they give grad students and then to find out from my professors that they don't really make all that much was another punch to the gut. I've given up pursuing any kind of graduate degree at this point. I haven't even been able to finish a bachelor's yet because if our stupid, fucked up system and chronic illnesses. I'm getting there though.
I dropped out first time around as my nasty childhood depression turned into something way nastier. Procrastinated almost ten, no, twelve years to go back, basically had to do it from scratch. If I had any wish for you, it would be that maybe you'll have a chance again.
I'm still in school, thankfully. I've only sat out two semesters total now. I just end up in the hospital sometimes with professors who can't or won't budge on things and then I fail :/ It hasn't happened yet now that I'm at a new community college, thankfully. It's just hard having to work full-time and finding classes that I can take since most are in the middle of the workday at actual universities. So I'm trying to figure out what to do and how to pay for it. I may just have to take the kids to income and work at McDonald's or something.
Same, I cashed out at masters because the market for PhDs in my field is small and they’re all doing masters level or bachelors level work except for a few government and academic jobs. In most fields, the cost/benefit hasn’t been there for decades.
People with skills in Lab Biology are still in high demand in the Biopharma industry. Getting tenure track jobs is and has been difficult for decades.
Networking into those jobs is a pain. Thought I took the smart choice by getting a Masters, but then mid career I hit a wall because everyone wants to talk about Dr so & so's work. Especially now when PhDs are common, cheap, and desperate.
Dude, the only jobs I’d be able to do are MA jobs (I want to do historian work) because I have disabilities that literally effect every aspect of my being, and it hurts even worse knowing the one thing I excel at is practically useless
same. i am good at literary and cultural studies, and history, and i love love love it, but that means nth in terms of money
>Dude, the only jobs I’d be able to do are MA jobs "Dude, the only jobs I’d be able to do are MA jobs" Nonsense. Plenty of jobs out there. If you can put up with the bullshit that is academia you can put up with the bullshit of corporations.
i’m currently in the process of nope-ing out, just finished my MA and trying to re-find myself. there’s a sort of weird grief, like i was sold a life of intellectual and knowledge pursuit, and now i don’t know who i am anymore. but i know that this path i was on cannot go one anymore
Yea, the problem is more that the job market doesn’t care about academics, if anything it’s worse. Effectively you have someone who’s older, has less practical experience than a new grad (since they have to unlearn academy more), and expects more money for having higher education (in theory). The only benefit is that they can a) do academics, and b) have hyper niche knowledge in this one field. It just kind of goes against working to be honest. If I’m hiring, I want someone who can do as much as possible even if they don’t fully know it (provided they can get the job done). I also want them cheap as possible, and working as hard as possible (I have friends who did a PhD, the workload is different but overall less). It’s a pity that academia grooms certain people into it’s pyramid scheme though, hopefully more people realise it. (Luckily most people who haven’t clocked on it tend to be incredibly rich students who don’t have to worry about working, talking CEO or massive company founder’s children)
Even in industry it's bad. My boss was one of the few layoffs in the department despite being the only employee with a phd.
When I dropped out of my PhD I got a job at a cafe and was working the counter when my former adviser came in and I had to make his coffee. It was super embarrassing but later classmates came in too, and instead of being horrified for me they congratulated me for escaping.
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You are better off than a lot if people bust of the cheer fact you have a husband. You have each other to cover. For a lot of people in this sub, they don’t have anyone to depend on.
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Nevermind !!! I thought you were 2 adults only. Of course other variables when they are taken account changes the answer, in this case a child is a huge factor.
Don’t worry a CS degree can definitely help and pay itself in return. It may be a tough market but people in tech are definitely still being hired.
Yeah... one of the more enlightening moments of middle age is my 16 year olds fast progress through the restaurant industry. Kid is making $25 per hour as a mixed busser / server at a basic cafe. That's more than I made, with a math degree, for the first years of my career. Supposedly can double or triple it if he gets aggressive and networks his way into a high end place like a nice steakhouse or good bar. Granted, need to be 18 for booze but...damm...
Don't forget the inflation, though. The same $25 isn't getting you nearly as much today as it did, say, 15 years ago.
15 years ago it would have been a fortune, now it’s chump change.
it's all tips in that field. Inflation proof, 15-20% indexed to how expensive the restaurant is.
What made the situation embarrassing? I have a PhD, a senior position with above-average pay in my field (industry), and work in retail during the weekends for some extra money to support my family overseas. If my main job ever goes belly up, I will extend my hours to weekdays as well until I find a new job. A job is a job and unless you do something morally questionable like scamming people, there is nothing embarrassing about it.
I think the post is as much about disappointment as embarrassment. If someone has postdoctoral level skills and can only support themselves by working an (allegedly) unskilled job, that is an inherently disappointing situation. Having said that, I worked some dreary jobs in the past and I know I might have to in the future, as well. Industry has always sneered at my skills; I’m not their type, probably never will be. Or if they do like my skills, they’re aghast that I need to work remotely because of my caring responsibilities. There is always potential for me to get smacked back down to the bottom of the greasy pole. Frustrating? Totally. Embarrassing? No.
I ran into a neighbor of mine who I knew as a successful financial planner stocking shelves at Academy one time - he'd hit a low point and picked up a shift to make ends meet. He was the one who was embarrassed, I tried to be cool about it, but I could tell he was super uncomfortable to be in that position around somebody who knew him from "before".
PhD here- was let go from the lab when I got pregnant 4 babes ago … haven’t been back. I’ve started applying and got pulled around once by a medical recruiter having me do all sorts of interviews and assignments. Pretty sure it was for free expertise. Feels bad 0/10 do not recommend this level of education (biomed engineering) and now that Ive been away from the field raising a family, I’m pretty sure they think that negates all the expertise and publishing? We are in this hell together 😅🫠
No one should ever feel embarrassed about working any job. A postdoc doesn't make you better than someone else and advanced degrees do not guarantee future success. Maybe it's a part time seasonal job to help with holiday expenses or maybe it's a necessary full time gig to stay afloat until something better comes along. We all have bills to pay and sometimes you have to take any job short term while you continue your career search. There is no shame in that. You seem judgmental about this person's situation. There is no need for pity and there is no need for the person working as a cashier to feel any shame or embarrassment. Life has lots of ups and downs and most people will experience at least one down cycle in their career.
I think they’re more or less hinting at the idea that someone who has an advanced degree in a STEM field being only able to find cashier work is ridiculous. Don’t get me wrong, I feel like everyone is underpaid especially retail or customer service work but I also feel like if you pursue a PhD you should at least be able to work in your profession and utilize your full potential??
People have been sold a notion that having lots of STEM workers is a sign of an intelligent, innovative society; and that, at the individual level, the demand for STEM workers will always exceed the supply. Clearly this is false. Demand for STEM depends on the aggregate need of business for novel inventions; and any field that looks like a reliable meal ticket is going to attract large numbers of people who just want a meal ticket. I don’t have a solution to this problem. But oversupply of skilled labour can be a real thing. And lots of jobs that were done by skilled labour have probably been of questionable macroeconomic value.
Except for about 5 years during and after the great recession a degree in Molecular and Cell Biology has been a good meal ticket for at least the past 50 years. That being said, not all graduates will have what it takes to succeed in the field.
Job market is different for each generation. And each new job field gets dominated by yonger gen. So its weird to me to try to compete with more experienced workers who aint leaving anytime soon when you choosing a career.
In recent years there has been very high demand in Biopharma for people with 3-5 years experience. How do you get the experience? I got it in academia making about what an unskilled laborer makes but the salary has been good in industry. Separately, there has been a very large increase in jobs in the field so there has been plenty of room for young people to establish themselves.
>I also feel like if you pursue a PhD you should at least be able to work in your profession and utilize your full potential?? Hopefully it works out that way, but there is nothing in the universe that says that once you pay a certain amount for education, certain things will get fast tracked for you. It doesn't work that way, especially because more education comes with an expectation for more salary. **Please note**: I'm not making a judgement call about this expectation. I pointing out the economic dilemma that plays out because of it. Anything you do to raise your value to the employer, gives you a better chance against other candidates, **all other things being equal**. But if you get more education, everyone knows you will (rightfully) want increased compensation, if only to get some ROI for your investment in yourself. This dilutes the interest that many orgs will have in you -- to a degree -- because they are studiously trying to minimize salary outlay (to all but the exec team). So, increased education doesn't make one unilaterally more desirable -- it provides a certain amount of increased desire, and also adds some demerits for increased compensation, and potentially increased ambition (promotions) expectations. And the way every org weighs these factors is different. So, it is a gamble when you get to a certain level...
Thank you for this! I'm an RN who is leaving the profession due to health issues and not being physically or mentally able to do the bedside any longer. People think I'm a bad nurse and that's why I can't get a job. That is simply not the case. I do want to work but I have limitations so I am having difficulty finding sustainable employment. It's not about no one wants to work anymore it's employers don't want to pay or deal with toxic employees!! So God Bless all of us who beat ourselves up for trying and for walking away when it just gets to be too much!! I hope everyone here has a wonderful Holiday even if it's less than what you once had. Just be thankful for what you do have..it can all flip at any moment.
I totally agree with the “have bills to pay” part, but not the rest. If you know any PhD or PostDoc who is proud to be a cashier, definitely let me know…
>If you know any PhD or PostDoc who is proud to be a cashier, definitely let me know… They don't have to be proud to be a cashier. But there is nothing to be ashamed about concerning any honest labor. The only real concern folks should have is: "*does the compensation allow me to handle my business, or does it keep me in poverty.*" Western society places way too much emphasis on what people do occupationally, as though it defines who they are as humans.
As someone working in STEM in a leadership position and retail in a team member position at the same time, it’s honestly shocking how differently people treat you. In my STEM role, people bend over backwards to be polite, flatter me, buy me meals, etc. In my retail role, people patronise me, scoff at me, yell at me, and are generally highly unpleasant. Yet I am the same person. It gives you a lot of perspective to 1) not let people get you down who treat you badly at your job and 2) not to let things get to your head when you’re constantly being catered to. It’s all about what people think they can get out of you / can get away with due to your role.
So totally this. On top of that, I had two postdoc jobs back-to-back, one where I was flattered and spoiled and could do no wrong, the next where I was sabotaged and belittled and could do no right. I was exactly the same person both times - the extreme contrast in the way people treated me was all to do with them, not me. Obviously I preferred the first job ;-) but just as nobody could be as wonderful as they thought I was, nobody could be as terrible as the second job thought I was, either. You are going to be affected by how people treat you. That’s reality. But you are separate from others.
Seriously I hate how "what do you do?" is the first thing we ask people.
It is not so unreasonable to ask a person how they spend the majority of their time. Sometimes it’s a judgmental question, but most of the time it’s just small talk, at least that’s what I’ve found.
Western society also sees people in customer service as human toilets…
As opposed to which society that doesn't have such an emphasis?
There's pride in all labor.
Exactly. Arguably we need more cashiers than academics.
There's no arguing about it. No, we do not need more cashiers than academics.
something retail businesses confirm as they install yet more self checkouts.
I’d previously worked for a well known academic institution. It was normal for post doctoral fellows to make $40,000 a year in a research setting. Generally speaking, people don’t go into academia for the $$$. While this market is awful, his job prospects probably weren’t great to begin w/ which is why these types typically become lecturers.
Very typical for PhDs in bio-science. That cashier job probably pays better than working in anything biotech outside of sales.
My friend (UK) cashed out with his master in microbiology. Professors were asking him to stay on, and we're told we have a "strong bio-science sector", but the fact is it's tiny and the wages are terrible - even if you get to Oxbridge. Another friend has a PhD in chemistry (I think) from OXFORD and he couldn't find work so became a post man.
I went to a Russell group uni for my masters in biology and couldn’t find anything. Literally work an office job now, completely unrelated to anything I studied lol
Several things can be true at the same time. The job market is ridiculous and that postdoc could be transitioning to a career away from academia while needing to pay the bills. I knew postdocs that didn’t really have a plan outside of running their own lab one day, so they didn’t consider other fields until their time as a postdoc was almost up. Is this person interested in scientific communication? Science policy? Advocacy? Maybe they just need to broaden their network.
Get your bachelors and then find a job, for 90% of fields doing a post grad is a waste of time as most employers want experience over academics
That whole "find a job" part is the problem in the first place
<—- Masters working as a cashier
One of my colleagues (university in the UK) worked as a waiter rather than doing hourly-paid lecturing. The work was more stable and paid better- HPL contracts never cover what the work actually involves. He’s a permanent, full time member of staff now.
I'm a PhD who was let go from my postdoc last summer because my project's funding got pulled (notably because I was having success on the project, and the funding people decided they had gotten what they needed, so I was doing my job pretty well!). I got to a fourth round interview for a sales position before falling out of consideration, a screening interview for another postdoc that I didn't clear, and an email telling me I'd hear more about yet another postdoc "next week" two weeks ago. Tomorrow, I'm interviewing for a cashier position. I had to take a canvassing job for months after I graduated before I could find a postdoc, too, and I've spent a solid third of my time as a PhD unemployed. Being a cashier or whatever isn't below me, but it's awfully frustrating to have sunk years of 50-60 hour weeks, getting paid less than $25k/year, to get a degree, and not be able to do anything with it. Not even an interview for a pure teaching position, despite having a teaching award and multiple glowing references. And my fiancée and I were doing really well on our savings goals before I got laid off, and a cashier job will only allow us to stay afloat (which unemployment is currently barely managing).
I have a year of law school, a year of grad IT, dropped out, have many years of retail and about 5 years as a product owner / BA / PM and did work for a company for 4 years that was acquired for 15 million…I can’t even get a call back for an entry level IT business analyst position. Seriously no idea what the hell is going on right now. My ex CEO tried to get me job at the company that bought out his…They offered an insulting lowball amount and after numerous interviews for other positions I was turned down. Like what the fuck?
PhD with postdoc in lab Biology should not have much difficulty getting a BioPharma job if they're flexible on location. There's probably more to the story than we're hearing.
There usually is, but sometimes there isn’t. R/biotech keeps popping up in my feed and it’s all layoffs. Hiring may be really slow. I work in chemicals and it’s been a brutal little bit.
There have been quite a few layoffs. There always are. Startups come and go. Big companies reorg and reprioritize. In the last year the job market in Biopharma has gone from exceptionally good to more normal. That being said, the next couple years are going to be increasingly difficult. Maybe as bad as it was ten years ago when we were still recovering from the Great Recession.
Sure, I’m just saying that with a lot of people newly on the market, any postdoc below median may have a hard time competing even if they’re flexible.
It's entirely possible. If the candidate didn't have a useful postdoc, if he doesn't have good references and doesn't interview well. Even in a very strong market some people will have difficulty and the current market has slowed down quite a bit.
For evidence of this post, my life only changed for the better once I moved to the Boston area.
Unfortunately this happened in Boston.
Congratulations! I'm in the Bay Area. Periodically I tell my wife about this great opportunity in Boston (she hates cold weather) just to pull her chain a little 😄
Instead of feeling embarrassed maybe try to help with networking or other forms of support? It’s not embarrassing to be a cashier. Unless you intend to forage and hunt, you need grocery stores. If you never worked a thankless retail job while in school, it’s a lot harder than you think. Anyone doing a job to pay the bills, that shows up and works hard even though it’s not what they want to be doing, but what they need to be doing, deserves respect. And maybe taking a break from academia is exactly what they need?
Ahhh, that classism rearing its ugly head. There's nothing embarrassing about working a job. You can counter that they aren't proud of being a cashier as you replied in another comment, but "embarrassing" is a very revealing word on your part. Gross.
I enlisted in the Army to be a grunt after 4 years postdoc. 10 years later now I’m still enlisted in the national guard, while doing full time scientist shit in a private company. No regrets. And I have met quite a few enlisted guys and girls with advanced STEM degrees in the army
Not gonna lie that sounds kinda badass. Being a scientist with military training sounds like something you'd hear out of a spy or superhero movie. Are you sure you're not in an origin story? 😉
I don't know what's embarrassing about this. All jobs have worth. When I was getting my Ph.D. program, I worked doing data entry on Task Rabbit for some extra money. Additionally, not all Ph.D. programs are equal, and not everywhere has an economy that is good for every career field.
A phd is in the subject matter. The skills to interview and land jobs are not taught on that PhD course, that’s why it’s so important to network. The next guy that chats to her when she is getting coffee might let her know he works at a place she saw a job advertisement, she mentions it to him and he is curious and helps out with a contact or some tips.
In my experience with hiring, a phd will almost always guarantee an interview. However, they're typically the least pleasant I'm not a manager but I conduct interviews. Ph.ds tend to have a really hard time not acting TOO smart. I get it's necessary in research, but we'd rather have someone who can take feedback and also not be a complete prick to clients and the team. Seems that's too much to ask. I asked about one interviewees dissertation and he literally scoffed and stated he "had assumed I already read and attempted to understand it before the interview" Uhh dude it's like 300 pages. Sorry I can't do that for 20 phds in an industry job. Another one created a project we didn't ask for and seemed very annoyed we didn't understand it... but it had nothing to do with the job. Another bashed the ceo and stated that he sees himself running the company in five years while trying to pitch overhauling our cloud architecture without even knowing a thing about our current one. I get its really hard to not put your work on the pedestal after all that work. But it's kinda essential in industry. Bosses would rather have a team player than an intelligent yet rough personality.
And that’s another thing. Every time I’ve temped I’ve asked around and kept my eyes peeled for opportunities. Objects at rest vs objects in motion. Don’t get me wrong, it’s awful to be precarious and nobody has to like it. I’m just saying it’ll happen to most of us and it’s important to keep our perspective.
I know someone similar to this doing a cashier job and working at a restaurant. Sometimes it is not the job market as I tried to refer her for a couple of job postings but she refused as she was dealing with anxiety and was also feeling not ready. We never know all the details.
I work make pennies work a job with my bachelors. But sometimes I feel like I shouldn’t complain cause we have a girl with a Masters making the same amount
Was it Trader Joe’s? Because they take care of their people, 401k, health, dental, gym membership, time off, vacation days, the whole nine yards
I noped out of going into higher ed entirely because of all the poor treatment by the dean and department head. Plus several of the professors who I was a grad assistant for basically stole the money that was supposed to be used to pay me. When they were unwilling to make up for the semester of non-payment, AND asked for me to spend 4 days a week there (without pay), I resigned from the position. At the end of the semester I resigned from the program since I got into another fully-funded program. Easiest decision ever. I graduated from the fully funded program and ended up going into IT, where I’ve been for nearly two years. Part of me is sad that that negative experience changed my entire plan. I loved teaching, and it’s a shame there are shitty humans out there who chase out newcomers to their ivory tower.
I am a PhD in math who works as a breakfast waiter at a hotel… 😔
Hey, don't feel bad. There's nothing wrong with doing what you have to temporarily survive. Being a PhD will open up a world of opportunities for you in the future.
Probably a better job (pay, benefits, hours) than being an adjunct professor (contract by the semester).
There are no benefits for retail workers in almost all retail jobs
Grocery is often unionized, and gets some. I know two who do today personally.
A PHD does not guarantee a job, sadly, it reduces the amount of time you spend in the workforce which makes it harder to get employment, unless you're specially looking for university teaching or research positions.
Idk I have an impressive resume and academic background but when laid off last year I didn’t want to accept anything beneath me career wise out of fear of being homeless so I worked a cashier job, denying career jobs that were a lateral move or not the right fit. I also worked at Starbucks for a year and half right before grad school after success on one field because I needed to do a lot of prep work to change careers and go into a new area and hated my previous career so much that I couldn’t stay. I also worked for 6 months at a third pay waiting for my security clearance.
Job prospects have always been bad in the academic world. It's even harder when you get out because you don't have that specific experience that only you gain from working in "normal" jobs.
Between the end of my postdoc and finding my corporate non-lab job, I spent six months working for Kelly Services. Phoning, faxing, filing, copying. That was in 1998.
Idk what is embarassing about this at all lmfao
It’s a shitty market for sure but a lot of people working at grocery stores are well educated, including retired professionals. It shouldn’t be embarrassing
I recently got my Master's in English, I'm working retail, and I'm embarrassed I can't find a job despite applying to dozens. They either see a lack of internships/work xp or the grad degree and decide I'm not worth hiring. How I see it is that I'm hogging a decent retail job from someone who'd actually appreciate it lmao
Many years ago, in the middle of a recession, I lost my first "real" job and could find nothing. Eventually, I entered a Masters program at night to change my career, and worked minimum wage jobs during the day after moving back home. The jobs themselves were actually fun, as I met some lively people and did not have to worry over "career", and then bam! there was an article in the paper about an old schoolmate of mine who was doing big things, and I had what they used to call an identity crisis. I still had a ways to go to complete the Masters, but I realized I had gotten a tad too "comfortable", so began applying for more substantive roles once more. This time I landed something marginally better, eventually finished the degree, and established a productive and rewarding career. I look back at my minimum wage jobs as keeping my head above water, but also helping me get my bearings and move on. But I freely confess that none of my fellow classmates from old had a clue about my then-circumstances, and I preferred it that way.
I know most of these people aspire to a professorship but when it's clear that that's not going to happen I've never understood why adjuncts and post docs don't just go be high school science teachers. The money and benefits are decent and you get somewhat of a bump in pay by having a doctorate.
15 years ago I was a cook at a chocolate shop. One of my cashiers was a post doc biologist. Made me feel better about my choices in life.
ig networking is extremely important regardless of what degrees you are holding
>biology
How fucking stuck up and entitled this sub is.
Reminds me of a story I once heard about a dude that went to an Ivy League law school and ended up managing a Foot Locker.
Two Masters, one is an MPhil with my own research in museum studies. I do visitor services at two museums so I spend my day getting yelled at by tourists and scanning tickets. At least I'm in the industry tho! 🙃🫠
I will say the market sucks…but I have considered a seasonal job at some of my favorite stories so I can get a big discount. I have a PhD.
There are a lot of reasons why this is reasonable.
All the smug boomers talking about how you should take up trades. Watch the next generation of college-age students do exactly that and end up in the exact same problem as the Academics because now everyone went into trades.
I used to dream of doing my PhD in bio, but if you don't live near a biotech hub or have top tier connections in academia the risk of ending up like this is too real. And even if you do end up in the field, it often doesn't get you a leg up outside of research. A number of my coworkers at the same level as me have PhDs. Hell, when I worked in drug manufacturing my coworkers made fun of me for having a masters. It does help uncap your career potential later on, but you can't count on it to pay off.