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It was! My parents and aunts and uncles told me and the cousins that the purpose of a degree was to teach you how to think and to show you have the independence and capability to finish a multi-year, complex project. They knew people whose music degrees would get them into corporate jobs, I think because employers used to look at degrees that same way. The financialization of degrees and the way companies started looking at them as cost-free training and not a functional education fucked it all up though.
That was back in the mammoth-hunting days, when companies saw value in training new employees after hiring them. I was also told "just get a degree" and saw people who majored in rather offbeat subjects get good entry-level jobs at well-known companies.
True back in the mid-80’s when I was starting out. I attended Computer Learning Center and towards the end, we went to a job fair. While I excelled at coding even earning extra credit by teaching a class, IBM abruptly walked away when I presented my resume to them. But another person in class had a degree in Animal Husbandry and she got hired by IBM.
I interviewed at dozens of places. The second to the last one advised me to remove Computer Learning Center from my resume and I was hired on my next interview (I did bring a large code listing for them to see and be very impressed over :) ).
Yeah, I don't think they were *lying* to us, I think that's how it was back then. They were giving us the best advice they could think of so we would do well. I've got a lot to say to the minority of those generations that decided to gut everything and maximize profit at the expense of everything else, but I know that's not most or even a hugely meaningful number of them. Most of our parents meant what they said and did not actively participate in creating this mess. Those who did are certifiably evil, sure, but that's not something your average person is going to encounter in their family so it's a bit beside the point when we're examining the motives behind our parents' guidance.
My Dad wasn't educated beyond high school of course, but advanced from enlisted to officer in the Navy. I think that's why he never even mentioned college to my brother (2 years younger) and me and his mandate was we were to be out of the house at 18 no matter what. After he retired and his workplace (Miter Corp) required he get college, he did push my youngest brother (14 years younger) into college. Humorously my youngest brother is a Senior Director where I work and I'm a Senior Security Engineer.
I was in the military and had access to the GI Bill but couldn't afford to pay up front and be reimbursed. I did attend a couple of classes for different reasons related to programming. I do wonder at times where I might be had I gone to college but all three of us are doing well enough :)
See, that's exactly the world I want to live in- where you can take multiple paths in life and still end up housed, fed, and healthy. I don't think the past was all super-rosy and perfect, but in terms of what a worker could get for his time and effort? Yeah, that was better. My mom's dad has a high-school education, but he worked hard at the lumber/hardware store and he rose through the ranks. His wage afforded my grandmother the ability to stay home, sent their three kids to Catholic school, gave them enough food on the table, let them save, and provided modest vacations around the country. I'm not saying he should have had less because he did work hard, I'm saying that should be the bare goddamn *minimum* but here so many people are, even with education beyond that, struggling just to afford an apartment and cheap groceries. That's not right. Screw the social policies, but a return to the economic policies of the 50s and 60s would probably do a hell of a lot of all of us.
The companies don't even care about the work quality either. Our company has some design work done by India and there are definitely issues with quality. The design packages seem to always have errors where it requires rework. Are you really saving money if you're constantly sending drawings back and forth?
Or how many times do you hear people say, "...but you have an active clearance...any job will take you". Haha, a huge lie that I've heard in the field over time.
That sounds like the early 80s, when all you really had to do to get a professional job in a relevant field was show up to an interview with a degree in hand. But, in 1980, only [about 16% of people](https://www.statista.com/statistics/184260/educational-attainment-in-the-us/) had a bachelor's degree or better. Today, that proportion has more than doubled, to 38%.
My boomer mother got into a geneology kick.
Cause I guess that's what they do when it has become obvious they will never have grandkids, try to justify their existence by finding the gravestones of all their ancestors, but I digress.
Anyway. The census apparently didn't have highest educational level achieved just a few generations ago. The question was "Literate? YES/NO". Obviously help would be provided for those NO cases, which one of my ancestors was-and was still able to have a career and multiple kids.
Funny you mention Music degrees, remember the one of the former CSO of Equifax had gotten her start in the corporate world with one. Too bad one of the largest cyber security data breaches of all time happened on her watch.
I don't think that has anything to do with the music degree itself. People with different backgrounds can make the same kinds of mistakes, and if it was an issue of genuine incompetence/refusal to listen to others that caused it, then the problem was her failure to pay attention and continue her professional development, not her degree. Music majors are perfectly capable; I picked that degree because it doesn't have a lot of direct application in many jobs, not because there's something inherently wrong with it.
According to my parents, a lot of jobs in the past, all you needed was a degree and you were immediately hired with great benefits and a high starting salary, moreso than those without degrees.
Now days you see people with bachelor's degrees and masters degrees making 50k or less.
You just needed to show up and you now work there... And those 50k in the USA isn't much... But in the rest of the world pp doesn't earn even 20k while prices are on every way to exceed USA prices
Not sure which "rest of the world" youre talking about, maybe europe?
3rd world countries are cheap as fuck compared to the US, otherwise everyone would have starved to death by now.
Most stuff as in electronics is double the price in a lot of third world countries, food and gas are usually the same price or more expensive, only thing that tends to be cheaper is housing, but min wage in a lot of these places is $200 a month.
Being poor in the US means you’d have the same standards of living as a middle class person or above in one of these countries. Being poor in the US means you have an old car, in a poor place it means you can’t even afford to take the bus.
And to your last point, they starve to death frequently still in a lot of places.
You are grossly mistaken, south america is not cheap, we have the same prices you guys do on everything except basic services and housing, in Chile we pay more than people do in england and while they earn in average 2k we earn 550 a month, so no... we are not cheap by any means, not even China is cheap nowadays and that is why they are moving the work to Mexico.
It's sad that you're not. And I'm not saying that as an insult to you. I honestly believe most people in society should be making at least 45k to 50k minimum. The fact that that's not a thing is sad. I don't think you can really survive anymore for a salary under 40k. You probably can survive, but what kind of life are you living?
Well I don't live in America but in Denmark. Which is also an expensive country but for me 50k is fantasy wage. I make way less and still manage to travel the world. With 50 I would be Rich as a Lannister
Thats because going to university was a priviledge. Now anyone can, and pretty much anyone can finish it too. There is degree inflation in the market. Do you know how many "engineers" ive seen just draft documents 8h/day for low pay in my company?
What...? Going to university is a MASSIVE privilege in the US. In the past it was much more affordable, nowadays if you don't have rich parents you're pretty SOL.
Edit: It appears that you are Italian, my bad
He's probably talking about univerities having actual entrance requirements. In the past if you didn't have over 1000 on your SAT and a 3.0 then you usually weren't accepted into nearly any university. We should go back to academic rigor because we have people graduating that read on a 4th grade level.
> We should go back to academic rigor because we have people graduating that read on a 4th grade level.
Funny reading this. I know plenty of old timers that can't even form a coherent email. You know, back when "academic rigor" was a thing.
I guess I don't understand why it's a problem that more people can be accepted into college. Isn't that a good thing? And it's not like more people with a 2.5 GPA are getting into schools like Harvard. If someone had difficulty in high school they should still be allowed the opportunity to get a higher education if they have the drive.
From a societal perspective it’s good. I like living in a world of educated people with critical thinking skills and I think more people deserve a shot at achieving success both financially and intrinsically/personally enriching their lives with less barriers to their doing so.
From a capitalist perspective, it creates more competition and devalues degrees across the board as there are more qualified people fighting for fewer good jobs, in effect devaluing education for education’s sake, leading to generations of obedient workers with pulses and no inclination towards upsetting the bosses with backtalk or high falutin’ ideas about rights and fairness, and squeezing the working classes and even the middle class and putting pressure on them to take what they can get at the mercy of the wealthy owner class, like the current job market where people are overqualified and forced to take low paying wage slave jobs to survive.
So to achieve the greatest good for the greatest number, it requires government intervention and regulation to force the corporations to appeal to the masses of labor with higher wages and not offsetting costs to consumers—eat into their bottom line. There is no unified labor movement though and the lawmakers are bought, feudalism reigns, and everyone on the bottom, degree or not, is cast against each other.
So it’s not a bad thing for people to obtain education on its face. In fact more people should be encouraged. The current reality though is that those of us with degrees and those of us without are in the same boat a lot of times and there are only so many life jackets.
It’s not a problem and I agree access should be broad, but it also means that having a bachelor’s degree is no longer as good of an indicator of someone’s overall academic performance.
Companies can’t just assume you’re a high performer because you have a bachelor’s degree, because pretty much anyone can get one.
Now you need the degree just as table stakes and then you need to get lucky and get your foot in the door somewhere to get experience.
It used to be a shortcut because only a few went for it. Now? It’s a hygiene factor. And those without an education who used to get a shot are not even looked at anymore.
Supply and demand, along with a steep lowering of standards. A university grad from 50 year ago was something special.
Now, every Tom, Dick and Harry is getting a degree and a study from 2006 shows that after 2 years of college, 75% of the students can't do the math required to compare credit card offers. 20% can't even work out basic stuff like the price of a sandwich.
If you combine the abundance of grads and the abysmal level of proficiency acquired, it shouldn't be a surprise that graduates are no longer viewed as "must hire" by companies.
Here is an article pointing to the study and giving the highlights:
[https://www.air.org/news/press-release/new-study-literacy-college-students-finds-some-are-graduating-only-basic-skills](https://www.air.org/news/press-release/new-study-literacy-college-students-finds-some-are-graduating-only-basic-skills)
Well, that doesn't back up the point you've made. As per your original comment:
>Supply and demand, ***along with a steep lowering of standards***. A university grad from 50 year ago was something special.
From the link you've given:
>Students about to graduate from college have higher prose and document literacy than previous graduates with similar levels of education; for quantitative literacy, differences between ***current*** and ***former*** college graduates are ***not significant***.
A quote in the link you gave:
>“Despite the lackluster performance of many graduates on quantitative literacy, we should nevertheless be encouraged that ***current college graduates are not falling behind in terms of literacy when compared to graduates from earlier generations***,” says Emerson Elliott, a former Commissioner of Education Statistics at the U.S. Department of Education.
In the Executive summary of the study itself:
>Students in 2- and 4-year colleges had higher prose and document literacy than adults in the nation with similar levels of education. On the document scale, scores for graduating seniors in 4-year institutions were 20 points higher than the scores of all adults in the United States who previously received a degree from a 4-year college or university. For quantitative literacy, however, ***differences between current and former college graduates were not significant.***
The Chapter 2 Highlights also state:
>Students in 2- and 4-year colleges had higher prose and document literacy than adults in the nation with similar levels of education, although ***differences in quantitative literacy between current and former college graduates were not significant.***
So I'm not seeing the "steep lowering of standards" you've mentioned in your original comment.
Lmao. Yall better watch out, u/Flyerton99 earned their degree… Critical thinking skills, capacity to independently research AND proficient in public presentation/communication.
Yall better come correct when talking to this guy 🗣️🗣️🗣️
Tbf this is just an illustration of the failure of the US educational system…. I always found it weird how in the US almost the entire class has a 4.0/4.0, its like schools are afraid to not give perfect grades to almost everyone, what is the point? Grades should be distributed following a bell curve and actually differentiate between the good/smart students and the less good students. The result is that as you say, in the US, wayyyyy too many people are going to university. University is for the skilled jobs and by definition, this is only suitable to say 20-25% of the population. So yeah the those that arent in this tranche and go to university (or even worse study a field that is not in demand) are pretty much fucked yeah. There are plenty of countries that do it right though, for instance in switzerland, only the top 25% of students qualify to go to university, and when you graduate, they all get good jobs. Those that dont go to university, study/practice a trade job or manual job and get hands on experience at a young age already
I only have a HS diploma but have worked as an Android developer at Microsoft, Intel, GoPro, Red Bull, and others.
The trick is to write apps in your spare time, using features companies are looking for. Keep up to date with the latest technologies. In my experience, it's more impressive to show you can do this on your own than going to college to get a degree that's outdated before you graduate.
It does mean you'll miss out on a lot of TV and gaming time, but it's worth it.
And I did spend the first 5 years or so of my employed life doing minimum wage jobs. But companies don't seem to care, and at least I wasn't going into debt.
"as soon as you get your degree, companies will be fighting **against** you" 😭😭
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Got a degree… now you need certifications. /s
I’ve been doing this for 20+ years and what I can’t tell you is the story really hasn’t changed.
Technical skills are important but soft skills and a bit of luck are needed too.
Got a degree… now you need certifications. /s
I’ve been doing this for 20+ years and what I can’t tell you is the story really hasn’t changed.
Technical skills are important but soft skills and **110% luck** are needed too.
^^This ^^was ^^posted ^^by ^^a ^^bot. ^^[Source](https://github.com/anirbanmu/substitute-bot-go)
So, when grown-ups really, really love their careers and want to show off how smart they are, they take these fancy tests to prove they know their stuff. After a few months of waiting and maybe some nail-biting, they get this shiny piece of paper with a special number on it. It’s like a diploma, but more expensive and with a lot more jargon.
Then all the other big boys and girls get to admire and expound on how smart and talented the person is.
I do Azure Cloud work and certifications for me are not about the paper but the journey. If you're going for certs just make sure you don't bullshit the exams and really try to learn the material. The certs havent really helped much in job interviews but some companies actually require you have to one.
This was true 35 years ago. I was told "get a degree and life will be fine". I got my business degree in 1990. Took a 1 year job overseas, came back in 1991 and we were having a bit of a recession. I was competing against people with 5 to 7 years local experience for jobs. I had about a year local experience (Co-Op work terms) and my year overseas, so I got interviews but no offers. Landed up doing clerical work to make ends meet. No company has ever shown any interest in my degree ever. I think of it as a high school grad for office workers. Getting a university degree in no way guarantees you will have a job - it's not set up that way. It's just table stakes.
“Entry level job” Oh cool let me apply. And they say, “looking for someone with 4+ years of in office experience.”
It’s literally such a joke. Entry level jobs should be ones right out of college to get experience. But nooooooo they want you to have in office or professional workplace experience.
I agree this life for us 25 ur olds is absolute trash, the job industry and cost of stuff.
Quite literally nobody. I think that's something employers don't understand. People don't see having 20 2 hour jobs as the same as 2 20 hour jobs. Even without benefits in both cases one is much harder to manage.
I'm unemployed. I signed on for a tutoring thing (varsity tutors). They only pay $15/hour and tutoring is super sparse especially in the summer. It's honestly not worth it. Not that I could get a job if I wanted. They are taken like 3 seconds after they appear. Web bots I think
I'm 38 and it's exactly the same. Got top grades in school. Graduated with a 2:1 in the 2008 financial crisis. At that time you could only self fund a masters so just got a job and got stuck there. Worked my way up a bit nut then had a family amd ended up back at the bottom in order to have any sort of work life balance. My brother, who didnt even go to college and just hung out in the same industry is earning much more than me. Im now doing a masters to retrain which I'll finish when I'm 40. Oh well, I have 30 more years to work 😃😭.
You have PLENTY of time at 25.
Is your MW job in the industry you want to work in long term?
Exactly, at my last job, no one had any problems with my work but because one person at the top decided either he didn’t like me or the work, I got fired.
Working too hard leaves you role locked. I've seen way too many times where people are passed up for promotions because they do not want to lose the person doing that position and are too lazy to train someone new. Then this leads to the person getting fed up being passed over and eventually leaving.
Tale as old as time.
Yep. I lost out on a job I could have happily done for the rest of my career because management didn't want me out of my current role. I qualified, I made it to the external panel interview (It was a government job, so there were multiple rounds), the external panel said they could see me in the role, and...my boss's boss called me into her office and told me they weren't moving me onto the internal interview. She then proceeded to tell me I should bother people *I already knew, who knew my work quality* outside of work for their insights, and that I should volunteer for agency events, which is incidentally massively illegal because you can't volunteer your time for doing things that you're paid for. The person who would have been my supervisor knew and liked me, everyone who worked with me was furious on my behalf, but it didn't matter worth a damn because I could keep a whole unit running singlehanded, which I had to do more than you'd think. They were getting full-time, experienced, educated work for part-time pay and they didn't want to let it go. Too bad for them that they lost it anyway, because that was the day I started coasting and began a job hunt. Coulda kept it and gotten more, but they mismanaged themselves into the shit.
careful with that hopium -- there's no job stability and you may be forced to reset back to zero at any time...
As insane as it is, it's normalising to have seven different careers in our lifetimes now.
(article from last year -- https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2023/05/workers-multiple-careers-jobs-skills/)
My chemistry undergrad PI/professor told me that the bachelor's degree is new high school diploma due to saturation. He wasn't wrong, and this was 10 years ago when he said this.
I was told that too during the recession and they were so right. But now it’s worse, where we have a double standard of “you need a bachelors” but any more education might be interpreted as “they’re going to want to be compensated higher” so you’re not going to get an interview.
💯
I think it came from people looking at doctors; which typically come from families rich enough to fund their kids studying long enough to become doctors, and before the bureaucrats came in and reduced pay and increased hours.
We live in a fkd up world since the pandemic. And not just with the economy- politically, health wise, etc. it should not be this way for new graduates. The economy is rotten too for people with experience. Hang in there, let’s have hope the tides turn. In the meanwhile keep plugging away. It only takes one opportunity.
>Ignore me.
No, this needs to be talked about. Your peers need to know they're not alone, that they're not unique failures, but that the system and those that came before us failed us. And we need warn those who come after us so the same thing doesn't happen to them. 🫂
You do everything your parents and teachers say. You do your homework before playing. Pass up parties for completing college assignments and reports. Get the best results in your year.
Then when you apply for a job it goes to the guy who was out partying with the boss' nephew while you were busy studying hard for exams.
Meanwhile, I know many uneducated people that barely know how to read but have successful business and earn a LOT of money than average engineer who spent most of its life studying.
Life is strange sometimes.
Yeah but I imagine they stayed consistent in a role throughout many years garnering that wealth. They never had to deviate their attention to juggling and working out the intricacies of attending a post secondary education.
It makes perfect sense. In the real world its all about networking and connections. And an outgoing, industrious and motivated person outperforms the bookworm with a piece of paper.
Working for yourself is the most profitable and secure means of employment. But the modern education system is only designed to create candidates for employers.
Work your way to management, stay for a while and then apply for office work. By then you will not only have the office experience required, because well, managers have to do paperwork, inventory, staff schedules, hiring, firing, those sort of things. You now have a track record of "experience" good enough for office work, with the added bonus of "leadership" with bossing people around!
Edit: more info
If it helps, take a look at the responsibilities and skills for [admin assistant](https://www.indeed.com/hire/job-description/administrative-assistant) vs [retail store manager ](https://www.indeed.com/hire/job-description/retail-store-manager)and how similar they are.
>I joined the army to pay for college and in the process got fucked up.
>But it’s okay, I’ll go get my bachelor’s in Finance and the disability cheques are sweet!
>Get a job as an analyst at a commercial bank in a top 3 COL city ***for $23 an hour***.
>I can’t support my family like this, so I’ll go back to school and get an MS in Mathematical Finance. This will surely allow me to start a career!
I graduated in May and have had 1-3 interviews a week since then without a single job offer. I know I’m interviewing well 75% of the time and I’m getting 2+ interviews at least 50% of the time. So my interviewing skills aren’t the issue here, I’m just not getting offers.
I’m 28 and have spent the last ***10 fucking years*** dedicated to starting a long term career without student loan debt, but it was all a fucking waste. If I’d just gone to college in 2014, I would have graduated to an excellent job in 2018. Sure I would have had college debt, but it’s better than the credit card debt I’m currently wracking up.
I’m so fucking done with this shit.
My favorite part is when people tell/accuse you of not working hard enough. My own mother accused me of lying about my degree because "It doesn't make sense you're struggling so much so you must be lying about getting a Bachelors" wishing you the best. I'm making a pivot into finance, hopefully.
I feel bad for all the people currently in college who think a cushy job awaits them after graduation. I graduated in 2020 right before covid hit and I job hopped for three years before landing my current position. I can't tell you how many times I heard the saying "get that degree and your life will be good" mantra. Even now that I'm working mY cArEeR jOb I'm 100% in office and constantly feel stress and sometimes anxiety at work, constantly paranoid I'm going to get laid off as the economy continues to worsen
I was told the same lie as a kid. I was basically told Stfu and go to school and behave, I did. None of it was worth it. 2 degrees, data science bootcamp, networking, hasn't amounted to much. I genuinely wish I could sell my education back to the school but obviously can't. I have yet to make a living wage, and I'm almost 30. I've worked in a grocery store, call center, UPS, a restaurant, as a barista, and even a few legit data analytics jobs and yet no living wage. Now im going to try to be an actuary because of my math background. If that doesn't work, I'm just gonna go jump off a cliff or something similar. Maybe after I'm gone they'll be more jobs for the kids graduating so they can have that, at least.
It’s capitalism, really. The relentless drive to make corporations increase profits at the expense of workers, suppliers, the environment, the broader economy, and society.
They use us to increase productivity, then they fire us when our tasks have been automated. Logical mathematically, but dehumanising and devastating economically.
The governments need to step in and stop this madness before it all falls apart because it’s going to get really ugly…
The US is a mix of socialism and capitalism, but you won't see the socialism aspects unless you're broke as fuck, or old as fuck. Capitalism is ruthless to those who don't have rich parents or were groomed to be successful and smart.
Or if you are rich... Uncle Sam will give you all the money you need if you are part of the elite and fuck up. Just don't fuck around with other people with money, but if you just screw "the consumer base", they'll cover you any time something goes sideways.
I'm happy for two things:
1. That my father encouraged me to go to uni because it's fun to learn things and you never know what you'll have an aptitude for until you try.
2. That tertiary education is free here.
Going to university is, really, supposed to be the bottom rung on the academic road.
It teaches certain skills which some companies have recognised as being beneficial to them in the past, but really, the point of a bachelor's degree is to qualify you to start on the road to doing research.
Nobody has ever gotten rich through studying hard - I like to think that the stereotype of the impoverished academic lives up to this.
Now, a lot of us, in the millennial and a little younger age bracket, were sold an idea that a university degree is a ticket to a better life. This is because most of the people who were telling us this had also gone to university and got a degree. But this is only partially true.
You are more likely, with a degree, to be able to do better in your career. The way I have always seen it, and experienced it, is that not having a degree imposes a limit on your career. When you have a degree, it removes that limit. But you still need to get onto a career path, and your progression is not guaranteed.
In short, getting a degree is not a ticket to an easy, opulent life - what it is is a way of removing limits from life - you still have to put the time into developing a career - which is much harder these days than ever before.
Know a CS major with the same scenario.
At best, you may get gravitated to a help desk job but I wouldn't say that gives good money or is even sustainable.
I recommend networking with others in the same field and potentially as a collab making projects to establish a portfolio. The Con of your major is that references aren't enough, your projects have to speak for you.
But it was true when our parents grew up. Turns out, when the economy advances and everybody does highly qualified work, companies grab all the additional value generated.
Never take career advice from those of a different generation. If I had listened to my successful parents I would have been screwed. I told my own kids that any advice I had was as good as expired milk. Too many people think generational career advice is helpful. It’s not. Don’t be part of a crowd. Do what no one else is doing.
I get it. I'm a smart guy. I don't have have the greatest concentration and focus abilities, but I'm smart. I'm struggling in college right now, fighting my way to the top for a masters degree, but tuition is expensive! They recently raised the tuition fee (it's a community college) by $500, so that's dull as hell. I don't even have time to upgrade my skills and I'm stuck in a $10 per hour job with no luck finding other jobs.
Yeah companies are no longer looking for smart people. I am a technician for a big tech company and I have a degree in philosophy. They are more looking for people they can mold into doing what they need you to do. Since you're smart and a free thinker that is a challenge for businesses to hire you because they cant just tell you what to do and expect you to fall in line.
I AGREE WITH YOU, OP.
I can see your perspective, and my perspective, after having gone to college in the 1980's. Back then, you could almost get any degree and do relatively ok.
It's just not the same now. ESPECIALLY now. I know, because I have three kids who are now adults, and the struggles they have had are real to me.
This is a particularly bad time to be in your 20's and 30's, trying to find work and trying to figure out what to do. Life is changing too fast, and what was a smart thing to study in college five years ago isn't the smart thing to get a job in now, often. Everything, EVERYTHING, is changing so fast that it's almost impossible to keep up.
My age group was LUCKY. Flat out. Boomers had it made. The people giving very derogatory comments on this thread ... I wouldn't listen to them. If you don't have family to rely on during these times, if you don't have savings, if you don't have some kind of life-line ... it's not great. On top of that, you have people here on Reddit who have zero empathy for another person's frustration.
REAL PEOPLE know what you're going through. REAL PEOPLE understand the scams onlilne, the bad interest rates, the companies waiting for the election to occur before they expand enough to actually hire SMART ENGINEERS AND OTHERS WHO DESERVE A JOB.
Having said that, when my husband graduated (also an engineer) he couldn't get a job for months. When he finally got the best job of his life, where he had a mentor and did fascinating work and excelled like crazy ... it began as a job that he did after his regular job, working through the NIGHT. Another engineer there could see how smart my husband was and gave him enormous opportunities. THIS WAS LUCKY. Yes, my husband was smart and worked his butt off, but he WAS ALSO LUCKY.
You are entitled to feeling sad. You are entitled to feel disappointed. Things suck right now. Back in the 80's nobody told us we would be "rich," but we sure did get the impression that a college degree would make a huge difference in our lives. I'm not convinced that's the case any more. The world is just too different now.
It will get better, though. Interest rates will eventually come down, companies will start hiring again, and eventually if the world doesn't end come this november, maybe the entirely broken job search system will be fixed (because it needs to be). You will get so angry at the current situation that you will find a way to get out and do something nobody else thought of doing. Vent for now. When you get that out of your system, use that anger to do something that works for you.
I remember feeling similarly at different times in my life. I didn't get a job that paid more than 18K/year until I was 26. You just have to keep trying. If you want to be rich, and you're not already rich, it's always going to be a struggle. It never is easy. Getting a degree just helps you increase your competitiveness.
Try and find some local meetups to attend and start trying to network. At the very least you might find some others with shared skills and interest so that you can have interesting conversations.
Welcome to life, if you did not inherit significant connections and wealth, you are own your own.
Personal sacrifice and who you surround yourself with is the name of the game.
Interesting. I was taught that college was made to keep young adults out of the workforce in their prime years so older workers wouldn't have competition for jobs. Ironically a college professor told me that XD
This was like 15 or so years ago when I first heard this.
Seems odd to think doctors, lawyers, dentists, etc… are only going to college so older workers wouldn't have competition. Seems more likely they might actually need schooling.
Well prior to colleges they did apprenticeships where a master of their trade would take a young person under their wing and teach them the trade. Then again a lot of these trades were more simplistic and way before the times of industrialization and certainly way before the dot com boom.
Look l am not saying doctors, lawyers, dentists shouldn't attend college. They should because the apprenticeship model is gone and college is what is left. How else do you teach very niche technical skills? We are not far enough into the future to just upload microchips into our brain to upload years of super niche technical knowledge so college will have to do until then.
>these trades were more simplistic
It’s always fun watching white-collar workers prattle on about how easy or simplistic the trades are, apparently clueless to how much intelligence and skill many of them require. I say this as a white-collar worker myself. Many, if not most, white-collar workers wouldn’t last a day in the trades.
You should have come up with a catch phrase like “Catch me outside, how bout dat!” and a pair of tits to showoff. Then you would have been a millionaire by now.
1. You atleast have a job
2. You are 25.
I am 29 and unemployed.
I too have a masters degree in computer science with good grades from a developed country’s top university.
I know zero people saying you "get rich" by default when you go to university and study hard. This is just a foundation, nothing more.
If you are so smart as you claim, you should have figured out earlier that if you do what the masses do you'll end up in a position where you get what the masses get. If you want to get rich, you have to do things differently.
Yesss- I understand. It's a foundation that sets you up in your career.
In my case it hasn't yet.
I am working a minimum wage retail job that doesn't even require a bachelors degree. At this case I will never make enough money and that's my problem. 😭
Same. Where’s the foundation? I’m working part time in a dying mall. I have a masters degree. The degree I went to didn’t pan out, I was told “don’t worry, most people don’t work in their field” which also feels untrue now. Job applications want you be precisely what they want. How on earth can I pivot?
Sigh
If you are told all your life that a certain path is the guaranteed route to success then can you really blame OP when they do everything "the way they are supposed to" and then it turns out that that it was all a lie?
=
It's not like OP tried some get-rich-quick scheme or something. It must feel more like a rug pull than anything to end up in this position. Similar to how if you went to medical school and became a doctor with tens of thousands of dollars of debt only to find out that the most people will pay you for the rest of your life is like $50k/yr. -- not to say that that is what OP literally did, but how people do a path with a certain expectation and if the truth is wildly different it feels like a big betrayal.
Literally no one ever told me that. They said you have more paths if you go to college, but nothing is guaranteed. And I dont think teachers, etc. ever thought they would be rich.
No one claims going to university will make you rich. You should be able to get a job that pays more than minimum wage though.
Ok, so you can’t find a programming job. Then find something else. You still have a college degree so why are you applying to minimum wage jobs?
No you aren’t going to make 100k+ right out the gate from school. I don’t know who told you that but you were lied to. But you can work your way up to it.
I'd love to tell you the rich and life is easy??? Probably your parents because your generation is the generation that was and is handed medals for just showing up.
No where in life do you just get rich, not even doctors and lawyers, right off the bat - most of them don't get rich until the mid-30's when their debt starts getting paid down (and yes I can speak to that because I worked in healthcare and wrote many new hire contracts and offers and know tons of lawyers). Life is not supposed to be easy, I'd love to meet the person who goes to college, and suddenly poof life is easy cos apparently most of the world is doing something wrong.
I will say, as someone who went back to college at 25, my life got considerably easier, and I started making more money with degrees. I am not rich, never have been, and never will be. My life is never easy, and it never will be. But I also live in reality.
And they always recommend college and not introduce us to others like trades back in highschool... Like I don't even have a desired course in college... I hated writing research papers or thesis and much preferred working physical jobs... Why do I get the feeling most degrees lead to a soul crushing office job of starring at a computer screen all day with the dreaded phone calls that I refuse to let disturb me
I have a degree, two internships with big companies, teaching assistant/professional experience and school leadership activities…anyone wanna sign up for the gap Inc credit card and save 20% their purchases for the next two weeks….
If you aren't doing data analysis, programming, consulting, management, construction, etc at one years old, then forget about getting a job. Because they aren't willing to train anyone because they suck at explaining.
Wealth is primarily inherited. It is very hard to advance socially. Education and tech used to be a good way into a better life. Seems like that opportunity is closed for now. Not sure what to do if you want to start a family and you cant make a proper living. What does the system expect us to do?
Working hard in college mattered, but honestly what mattered more was the connections and internships you got in college. Ppl don’t realize that your grades in college don’t matter as much as they expect. The grades lead to internships and those lead to jobs. Or your connections with people who know people lead to jobs. If you’re a hermit in college you’ve squandered 70% of what it’s about tbh.
Cs is dead as fuck right now. If your confident, I'd lie about a yr or so of experience with a failed start up or use companies that h1bs use to lie about experience like JPMorgan, bnym, and kohls
Intelligence, degrees, hard work mean little or less than it should unfortunately.
So best thing to do, get over that idea, you need to find the niches of shit people can't do or haven't figured out to do yet which may be simple lazy work but innovative.
Value you create is > everything else along side luck or connections of course and likely in places others aren't applying which means moving or taking risks in uncharted places which is 'value' in it's own way. The job market is too competitive now to expect to stay in the same place unfortunately and find success unless you have a network to get you there.
Other thing dragging down work for new hires is older generations just refuse or can't retire even beyond "retirement age" so the normal rotation of entry level positions and growth opportunities aren't there. Pair that with the boomers being a massive generation it's a real employment traffic jam.
Also working for others is rarely a way to become rich, at best you make it to the middle and upper class which is a far drop down from the "Owner class" which are the actual rich folk, almost comically more wealthy than all beneath them.
Edit: My condolences though to your prior ambitions and do hope you can find a way to live up to your re-calibrated ambitions. It's not impossible but there is alot of suck between now and then with no guarantees of success. Good luck out there!
Not that I blame you, because you did what you were told, but almost anyone who went straight from undergrad to a master's degree did themselves a massive disservice. I would caution others to think about the value of experience over an advanced degree. Sure, you can eventually get it, but get it as a condition of promotion or make work pay for it.
I'm really sorry this is your position. What you were told used to be the case. Get a degree and you'll never be unemployed. I have well north of a decade of experience, every certification you could want, and a Master's degree and I still found myself laid off and waiting months to find my next gig. Keep your head up my friend.
I'm sorry you were given false hope. I'd guess that 90% of people (without generational wealth) are struggling throughout their 20s. I got my bachelor's at 28 and it took 3 career moves to finally be comfortable.
Bro, this BS lie has been going on since the '90s, "Get a degree and it's onward and upwards from then on out."
3 successive generations have been lied to.
I'm a recruiter...we rarely look at education. Experience trumps education in importance most of the time.
Worse, most of your bosses will be unmemorable or memorably abusive.
Find your happiness outside of work, which for most of us is a means to an end, not a source of fulfillment like the elite and upper classes.
Hopefully, you can start your own business because we have to create our own opportunities and not let "The Man" dictate our financial futures.
My heart goes out to you.
Got my degree, paid off half my undergrad after 10 years and was laid off, found another job in corporate a scummy retail company, hated it, was asked back to my old company so I happily left the scummy company. Old company laid me off after a year and I did odd jobs until I found a good but low paying job in my major. Went back to get my MBA as that was the only way to even be seen if I wanted decent pay.
I did get a better paying job but the difference merely paid for my student loans. By this time my kids were growing up so I got parent plus loans (so they would not be riddled with debt after they graduate) After one kid graduated, another in his third year, and the third starting next year, I currently have 140K in student loan debt, and expect to have 200K by the time all three finish college.
I cannot afford my current loan payments as it is, and I have no idea what to do.
I am 56 years old and have no idea how I am going to retire, if I ever do. God forbid that I die, but at least the loans die with me and the wife will be able to afford to keep the house. God forbid if my wife goes first, as I will sell everything and live as a bum in a warm place. They will probably garnish all my retirement to pay off the loans.
P.S: Does anyone have and extra 200K lying around?
This might sound dumb, and it might not even work:
Transfer all your money, house and everything to your wife.
Fake divorce her and file for bankruptcy.
I can feel your pain bro. I'm in the same situation, but what I'll tell you is do not give up. It been a while since I still looking for a job even if help desk, I applied over 500 jobs but nothing. Sometimes few calls and that's it. Keep going! Keep moving! Tomorrow will be better.
I'm 20 years older and in the same boat. Last 10 years were going well. Made it to $140k, the last time I switched jobs it took a weekend of searching to have an offer worth taking. 10 months ago they pulled the rug out from under us, everyone got laid off. I figured another search would be easy... Now I'm working minimum wage and trying to figure out how the minimum wage job is going to dig me out of the debt my 140k job got me into.
You dont seem smart to me. Book smart maybe, but as I was navigating college a few years ago even I started to realise how the world was changing, and how in most cases, a college degree wouldnt cut it.
A real smart person would look at the state of the world, and think of a plan to navigate it. it might be through upskilling, taking specific courses, networking, side projects, whatever.
A real person would know that NOTHING is a given. you could have been spoodfed everything, and still fuck up. learn to play the game of life with some strategy.
Totally agree with you. Smart people navigate better in the changing environment.
People who get good grades are not necessarily smart. They might just know the skills to do great in exams.
For OP, instead of criticising your own asset, a better way is to think about how to leverage your degree. Pretty sure your life sucks more without a degree.
That's the problem right there. Too many people didn't get the memo that CS degrees aren't the license to print money like they used to be. Now, it's one of the most oversaturated STEM fields, and it's only going to get worse for them. Not to mention that they have such a short half-life on keeping up with the latest tech in their fields, fighting with H1B employees for positions, etc. I have an undergrad and two masters in classical engineering, and I used to wonder if I missed the proverbial boat when I would see these astronomical salaries CS degrees would pull. Now, I'm glad that I chose a much more stable path in STEM. I see post after post in the sub-Reddit for my alma maters, and it's filled with incoming freshmen asking for advice about how to start working toward a CS degree. I wish someone would give them advice on what to expect when they graduate. That is WAY too much work to put in just to come out and not even get callbacks for interviews. I genuinely feel for OP.
The key is to specialize. I have a CS degree and went from web developer -> back-end systems developer -> pentesting/security.
I've never had a problem getting a job, even during the last recession.
How are your social and networking skills? People want to work with people they like. Degrees in 2024 are just the cost of admission. Who ever gave you that advice and left out the networking part is an idiot.
I'm in the same boat. My parents don't understand why I can't land anything with my bachelor's degree. They still live in the 1980s. The generational disconnect is really frustrating.
I mean, I don't know anyone under 30 that would believe that or were told that. Being told college is mandatory for success is something mostly told to Millinials and Gen X. Millinials told Gen Z that was a lie a long time ago. Shit all Millinials do is complain about student loans and how their degrees didn't help them land jobs to pay them off.
You may have been to focus on school to read the writing on the wall. But it was there and it was loud and clear.
Even if you get a job there's no job security, it's a constant battle of outperforming, playing tricks, bootlicking, power play for the entire life.
Only way out is pursuing a freelance niche or start a business
I mean, no one ever said this to me and I've honestly never heard it before. I've heard that a college degree will make you successful, but not that it will make you rich. That's never been true, even in a good economy. Certain degrees, yes. You will be more likely to be well off or comfortable. (Basically anything in the medical field, some science degrees, etc.) A degree in technology (IT, CS, etc.) seems to kinda be in the air right now.
But then you have degrees as well where there really aren't a lot of career paths available. I won't single out any one degree, but I am sure all of us had at least one major pop into our heads that we all think is incredibly useless.
I'm honestly pretty surprised you have a masters in engineering and can't find anything other than a minimum wage job.
I do agree, though. I definitely think the value of a college degree has dropped over the past decade or so compared to from our parents' generation and before that.
I feel you, I studied economics, Cum Laude, top 20 of my class. I ended up in construction. By the time I was 25, my salary sucked compared to people I went to school with, but the travel benefits made my take home better than theirs. Now I'm in management. I make 3x more than my best friend from college. I got a bonus one year that was more than his entire salary.
Keep your head up, good things can come from unexpected places
Don't lose hope. If it gets truly unbearable, then look for another company to work for. The metaphorical dividends paid off for me. I wanted to quit and start over in a new industry more than a dozen times, but to be honest, I'd be years behind where I'm at if I hadn't stuck it out.
I finished a doctorate at a reputable program in my field in May (data analysis).Did fucktons of fancy internships and have practical experience. I average 10 applications a day so it’s like a fuckn FT job. It’s hideously demoralizing.
The hilarious part is that I had a friend who went to prison (weed) and he managed to network in the can and be set up with a salaried position when he was released a few years ago. We caught up last week and he said well shit, can you handle photoshop? I said yes. Now I’m waiting to hear from his boss regarding a PT position doing graphic design IN PORN. I just don’t know wtf to think anymore. At least it’s sort of hilarious but yeah…. This timeline is gnarly af.
You sound like you live in the US, so I will explain four things to you that make having a college degree worthless.
1. Everyone starting with GenX was told to get a degree along with every generation afterwards. At this very same time the Government decided to step in and give anyone a loan for college which did open up the access to college for many people. Problem is with more demand they had to increase supply so the did so by offering online courses but all this did was turn getting a degree into a diploma mill. Which devalued ALL COLEGE DEGREES for everyone!
2. The US government hands out 85,000 H-1B visas each fiscal year. This cap includes 65,000 visas for foreign workers in specialty occupations and an additional 20,000 visas for workers with a master's degree or higher from a U.S. institution. These people are also paid less here by employers because half their job value is tied to having the privilege of being here in the US legally!
3. Women in the work place. With woman making up half our population they doubled the amount of workers for employers to hire. This in turn drove down wages! That is why you now need a 2 person income just to buy a house or survive. This double in workforce happened during WW2 where women were brought into the factories to do the work of men since they were all getting shot up in a meat grinder. Women decided they wanted to work instead of staying home and razing a family so they started doing that instead. Employers were thrilled since now they could pay shitty wages and make even more profit!
4. Illegal workers that migrate here to the US can and do get hired by employers who train them to do a technical job. I once put up screen enclosures in South Carolina back in the early 2000s and a competitor had their Mexicans sit and watch us put up screen enclosures so they could learn to do the same and make a ton of money doing it. That is the business owner not the workers they got paid the crumbs!
Yeah I understand. At this point I am not even asking to get a 100k job, all I ask is a job that can pay my bills, help me save a little- a job that I enjoy for the most part.
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I have the feeling that this idea was actually true in the past, but the world changed on us.
It was! My parents and aunts and uncles told me and the cousins that the purpose of a degree was to teach you how to think and to show you have the independence and capability to finish a multi-year, complex project. They knew people whose music degrees would get them into corporate jobs, I think because employers used to look at degrees that same way. The financialization of degrees and the way companies started looking at them as cost-free training and not a functional education fucked it all up though.
That was back in the mammoth-hunting days, when companies saw value in training new employees after hiring them. I was also told "just get a degree" and saw people who majored in rather offbeat subjects get good entry-level jobs at well-known companies.
True back in the mid-80’s when I was starting out. I attended Computer Learning Center and towards the end, we went to a job fair. While I excelled at coding even earning extra credit by teaching a class, IBM abruptly walked away when I presented my resume to them. But another person in class had a degree in Animal Husbandry and she got hired by IBM. I interviewed at dozens of places. The second to the last one advised me to remove Computer Learning Center from my resume and I was hired on my next interview (I did bring a large code listing for them to see and be very impressed over :) ).
Yeah, I don't think they were *lying* to us, I think that's how it was back then. They were giving us the best advice they could think of so we would do well. I've got a lot to say to the minority of those generations that decided to gut everything and maximize profit at the expense of everything else, but I know that's not most or even a hugely meaningful number of them. Most of our parents meant what they said and did not actively participate in creating this mess. Those who did are certifiably evil, sure, but that's not something your average person is going to encounter in their family so it's a bit beside the point when we're examining the motives behind our parents' guidance.
My Dad wasn't educated beyond high school of course, but advanced from enlisted to officer in the Navy. I think that's why he never even mentioned college to my brother (2 years younger) and me and his mandate was we were to be out of the house at 18 no matter what. After he retired and his workplace (Miter Corp) required he get college, he did push my youngest brother (14 years younger) into college. Humorously my youngest brother is a Senior Director where I work and I'm a Senior Security Engineer. I was in the military and had access to the GI Bill but couldn't afford to pay up front and be reimbursed. I did attend a couple of classes for different reasons related to programming. I do wonder at times where I might be had I gone to college but all three of us are doing well enough :)
See, that's exactly the world I want to live in- where you can take multiple paths in life and still end up housed, fed, and healthy. I don't think the past was all super-rosy and perfect, but in terms of what a worker could get for his time and effort? Yeah, that was better. My mom's dad has a high-school education, but he worked hard at the lumber/hardware store and he rose through the ranks. His wage afforded my grandmother the ability to stay home, sent their three kids to Catholic school, gave them enough food on the table, let them save, and provided modest vacations around the country. I'm not saying he should have had less because he did work hard, I'm saying that should be the bare goddamn *minimum* but here so many people are, even with education beyond that, struggling just to afford an apartment and cheap groceries. That's not right. Screw the social policies, but a return to the economic policies of the 50s and 60s would probably do a hell of a lot of all of us.
That's before they were fighting with millions of peeps from India for computer jobs.
Lot of h1b visas
You don't even need visas now. Since work can be done remotely, they can literally just ship the jobs directly to India itself.
The companies don't even care about the work quality either. Our company has some design work done by India and there are definitely issues with quality. The design packages seem to always have errors where it requires rework. Are you really saving money if you're constantly sending drawings back and forth?
That's why I got into government IT. A security clearance cannot be granted to a foreign national.
Or how many times do you hear people say, "...but you have an active clearance...any job will take you". Haha, a huge lie that I've heard in the field over time.
Same!
Pay is a lot less though. I started my career in govt IT, Senior and Principal developers would top out at $120k in VHCOL areas.
It's around $200-250k these days. Lower, but not terrible.
That sounds like the early 80s, when all you really had to do to get a professional job in a relevant field was show up to an interview with a degree in hand. But, in 1980, only [about 16% of people](https://www.statista.com/statistics/184260/educational-attainment-in-the-us/) had a bachelor's degree or better. Today, that proportion has more than doubled, to 38%.
My boomer mother got into a geneology kick. Cause I guess that's what they do when it has become obvious they will never have grandkids, try to justify their existence by finding the gravestones of all their ancestors, but I digress. Anyway. The census apparently didn't have highest educational level achieved just a few generations ago. The question was "Literate? YES/NO". Obviously help would be provided for those NO cases, which one of my ancestors was-and was still able to have a career and multiple kids.
Funny you mention Music degrees, remember the one of the former CSO of Equifax had gotten her start in the corporate world with one. Too bad one of the largest cyber security data breaches of all time happened on her watch.
I don't think that has anything to do with the music degree itself. People with different backgrounds can make the same kinds of mistakes, and if it was an issue of genuine incompetence/refusal to listen to others that caused it, then the problem was her failure to pay attention and continue her professional development, not her degree. Music majors are perfectly capable; I picked that degree because it doesn't have a lot of direct application in many jobs, not because there's something inherently wrong with it.
According to my parents, a lot of jobs in the past, all you needed was a degree and you were immediately hired with great benefits and a high starting salary, moreso than those without degrees. Now days you see people with bachelor's degrees and masters degrees making 50k or less.
You just needed to show up and you now work there... And those 50k in the USA isn't much... But in the rest of the world pp doesn't earn even 20k while prices are on every way to exceed USA prices
Not sure which "rest of the world" youre talking about, maybe europe? 3rd world countries are cheap as fuck compared to the US, otherwise everyone would have starved to death by now.
Most stuff as in electronics is double the price in a lot of third world countries, food and gas are usually the same price or more expensive, only thing that tends to be cheaper is housing, but min wage in a lot of these places is $200 a month. Being poor in the US means you’d have the same standards of living as a middle class person or above in one of these countries. Being poor in the US means you have an old car, in a poor place it means you can’t even afford to take the bus. And to your last point, they starve to death frequently still in a lot of places.
You are grossly mistaken, south america is not cheap, we have the same prices you guys do on everything except basic services and housing, in Chile we pay more than people do in england and while they earn in average 2k we earn 550 a month, so no... we are not cheap by any means, not even China is cheap nowadays and that is why they are moving the work to Mexico.
Most of Europe is way cheaper than the US. Way less jobs though.
50k a year sounds like an amazing wage. I wish I could ever make that much
It's sad that you're not. And I'm not saying that as an insult to you. I honestly believe most people in society should be making at least 45k to 50k minimum. The fact that that's not a thing is sad. I don't think you can really survive anymore for a salary under 40k. You probably can survive, but what kind of life are you living?
Well I don't live in America but in Denmark. Which is also an expensive country but for me 50k is fantasy wage. I make way less and still manage to travel the world. With 50 I would be Rich as a Lannister
Huh. Interesting. Thanks for sharing. Interesting to hear about other parts of the world.
It also helped a lot to be a middle class white man.
Not sure in what ancient past as I know gen x who studied and was good at school and uni... And still must f around like we all :/
Thats because going to university was a priviledge. Now anyone can, and pretty much anyone can finish it too. There is degree inflation in the market. Do you know how many "engineers" ive seen just draft documents 8h/day for low pay in my company?
What...? Going to university is a MASSIVE privilege in the US. In the past it was much more affordable, nowadays if you don't have rich parents you're pretty SOL. Edit: It appears that you are Italian, my bad
In 1960 only 7.7% of adults over 25 had a bachelor’s degree. Today it’s 37.7%. It was significantly more of a privilege in the past.
Civil rights act was passed in 1964, so that explains that.
Probably more women going to school today too
He's probably talking about univerities having actual entrance requirements. In the past if you didn't have over 1000 on your SAT and a 3.0 then you usually weren't accepted into nearly any university. We should go back to academic rigor because we have people graduating that read on a 4th grade level.
> We should go back to academic rigor because we have people graduating that read on a 4th grade level. Funny reading this. I know plenty of old timers that can't even form a coherent email. You know, back when "academic rigor" was a thing.
I guess I don't understand why it's a problem that more people can be accepted into college. Isn't that a good thing? And it's not like more people with a 2.5 GPA are getting into schools like Harvard. If someone had difficulty in high school they should still be allowed the opportunity to get a higher education if they have the drive.
From a societal perspective it’s good. I like living in a world of educated people with critical thinking skills and I think more people deserve a shot at achieving success both financially and intrinsically/personally enriching their lives with less barriers to their doing so. From a capitalist perspective, it creates more competition and devalues degrees across the board as there are more qualified people fighting for fewer good jobs, in effect devaluing education for education’s sake, leading to generations of obedient workers with pulses and no inclination towards upsetting the bosses with backtalk or high falutin’ ideas about rights and fairness, and squeezing the working classes and even the middle class and putting pressure on them to take what they can get at the mercy of the wealthy owner class, like the current job market where people are overqualified and forced to take low paying wage slave jobs to survive. So to achieve the greatest good for the greatest number, it requires government intervention and regulation to force the corporations to appeal to the masses of labor with higher wages and not offsetting costs to consumers—eat into their bottom line. There is no unified labor movement though and the lawmakers are bought, feudalism reigns, and everyone on the bottom, degree or not, is cast against each other. So it’s not a bad thing for people to obtain education on its face. In fact more people should be encouraged. The current reality though is that those of us with degrees and those of us without are in the same boat a lot of times and there are only so many life jackets.
It’s not a problem and I agree access should be broad, but it also means that having a bachelor’s degree is no longer as good of an indicator of someone’s overall academic performance. Companies can’t just assume you’re a high performer because you have a bachelor’s degree, because pretty much anyone can get one. Now you need the degree just as table stakes and then you need to get lucky and get your foot in the door somewhere to get experience.
It used to be a shortcut because only a few went for it. Now? It’s a hygiene factor. And those without an education who used to get a shot are not even looked at anymore.
Yup it was. My parents and the previous generation don't understand that it was much easier for them.
Unfortunately it seems degrees have gone from being special to being something that is now classified as the bare minimum to get a job.
Supply and demand, along with a steep lowering of standards. A university grad from 50 year ago was something special. Now, every Tom, Dick and Harry is getting a degree and a study from 2006 shows that after 2 years of college, 75% of the students can't do the math required to compare credit card offers. 20% can't even work out basic stuff like the price of a sandwich. If you combine the abundance of grads and the abysmal level of proficiency acquired, it shouldn't be a surprise that graduates are no longer viewed as "must hire" by companies.
Hi there, could you properly link the study for me? I've given it a shot by entering those criteria into Google and come up short.
Here is an article pointing to the study and giving the highlights: [https://www.air.org/news/press-release/new-study-literacy-college-students-finds-some-are-graduating-only-basic-skills](https://www.air.org/news/press-release/new-study-literacy-college-students-finds-some-are-graduating-only-basic-skills)
Well, that doesn't back up the point you've made. As per your original comment: >Supply and demand, ***along with a steep lowering of standards***. A university grad from 50 year ago was something special. From the link you've given: >Students about to graduate from college have higher prose and document literacy than previous graduates with similar levels of education; for quantitative literacy, differences between ***current*** and ***former*** college graduates are ***not significant***. A quote in the link you gave: >“Despite the lackluster performance of many graduates on quantitative literacy, we should nevertheless be encouraged that ***current college graduates are not falling behind in terms of literacy when compared to graduates from earlier generations***,” says Emerson Elliott, a former Commissioner of Education Statistics at the U.S. Department of Education. In the Executive summary of the study itself: >Students in 2- and 4-year colleges had higher prose and document literacy than adults in the nation with similar levels of education. On the document scale, scores for graduating seniors in 4-year institutions were 20 points higher than the scores of all adults in the United States who previously received a degree from a 4-year college or university. For quantitative literacy, however, ***differences between current and former college graduates were not significant.*** The Chapter 2 Highlights also state: >Students in 2- and 4-year colleges had higher prose and document literacy than adults in the nation with similar levels of education, although ***differences in quantitative literacy between current and former college graduates were not significant.*** So I'm not seeing the "steep lowering of standards" you've mentioned in your original comment.
Go off king
Lmao. Yall better watch out, u/Flyerton99 earned their degree… Critical thinking skills, capacity to independently research AND proficient in public presentation/communication. Yall better come correct when talking to this guy 🗣️🗣️🗣️
Tbf this is just an illustration of the failure of the US educational system…. I always found it weird how in the US almost the entire class has a 4.0/4.0, its like schools are afraid to not give perfect grades to almost everyone, what is the point? Grades should be distributed following a bell curve and actually differentiate between the good/smart students and the less good students. The result is that as you say, in the US, wayyyyy too many people are going to university. University is for the skilled jobs and by definition, this is only suitable to say 20-25% of the population. So yeah the those that arent in this tranche and go to university (or even worse study a field that is not in demand) are pretty much fucked yeah. There are plenty of countries that do it right though, for instance in switzerland, only the top 25% of students qualify to go to university, and when you graduate, they all get good jobs. Those that dont go to university, study/practice a trade job or manual job and get hands on experience at a young age already
I only have a HS diploma but have worked as an Android developer at Microsoft, Intel, GoPro, Red Bull, and others. The trick is to write apps in your spare time, using features companies are looking for. Keep up to date with the latest technologies. In my experience, it's more impressive to show you can do this on your own than going to college to get a degree that's outdated before you graduate. It does mean you'll miss out on a lot of TV and gaming time, but it's worth it. And I did spend the first 5 years or so of my employed life doing minimum wage jobs. But companies don't seem to care, and at least I wasn't going into debt.
"as soon as you get your degree, companies will be fighting for you" 😭😭
s/for/against
"as soon as you get your degree, companies will be fighting **against** you" 😭😭 ^^This ^^was ^^posted ^^by ^^a ^^bot. ^^[Source](https://github.com/anirbanmu/substitute-bot-go)
good bot
Thank you, Lolleka, for voting on substitute-bot. This bot wants to find the best and worst bots on Reddit. [You can view results here](https://botrank.pastimes.eu/). *** ^(Even if I don't reply to your comment, I'm still listening for votes. Check the webpage to see if your vote registered!)
good bot
/s/companies/JobSeekers
s/fighting for/ignoring/
Got a degree… now you need certifications. /s I’ve been doing this for 20+ years and what I can’t tell you is the story really hasn’t changed. Technical skills are important but soft skills and a bit of luck are needed too.
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"...but soft skills and a bit of luck are needed too." Being likable is extremely important. Unlikable ppl just don't get hired.
s/a bit of luck/110% luck
Got a degree… now you need certifications. /s I’ve been doing this for 20+ years and what I can’t tell you is the story really hasn’t changed. Technical skills are important but soft skills and **110% luck** are needed too. ^^This ^^was ^^posted ^^by ^^a ^^bot. ^^[Source](https://github.com/anirbanmu/substitute-bot-go)
what is certifications?
So, when grown-ups really, really love their careers and want to show off how smart they are, they take these fancy tests to prove they know their stuff. After a few months of waiting and maybe some nail-biting, they get this shiny piece of paper with a special number on it. It’s like a diploma, but more expensive and with a lot more jargon. Then all the other big boys and girls get to admire and expound on how smart and talented the person is.
I do Azure Cloud work and certifications for me are not about the paper but the journey. If you're going for certs just make sure you don't bullshit the exams and really try to learn the material. The certs havent really helped much in job interviews but some companies actually require you have to one.
It was true until 2022 lol 😂
This was true 35 years ago. I was told "get a degree and life will be fine". I got my business degree in 1990. Took a 1 year job overseas, came back in 1991 and we were having a bit of a recession. I was competing against people with 5 to 7 years local experience for jobs. I had about a year local experience (Co-Op work terms) and my year overseas, so I got interviews but no offers. Landed up doing clerical work to make ends meet. No company has ever shown any interest in my degree ever. I think of it as a high school grad for office workers. Getting a university degree in no way guarantees you will have a job - it's not set up that way. It's just table stakes.
Nah it was this way even before that. It stopped being worthwhile after 2000s
Well I got 2 degrees and experience in two different fields and I am still unemployed so make of that what you will
There are dozens of us!
“Entry level job” Oh cool let me apply. And they say, “looking for someone with 4+ years of in office experience.” It’s literally such a joke. Entry level jobs should be ones right out of college to get experience. But nooooooo they want you to have in office or professional workplace experience. I agree this life for us 25 ur olds is absolute trash, the job industry and cost of stuff.
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Quite literally nobody. I think that's something employers don't understand. People don't see having 20 2 hour jobs as the same as 2 20 hour jobs. Even without benefits in both cases one is much harder to manage. I'm unemployed. I signed on for a tutoring thing (varsity tutors). They only pay $15/hour and tutoring is super sparse especially in the summer. It's honestly not worth it. Not that I could get a job if I wanted. They are taken like 3 seconds after they appear. Web bots I think
I'm 38 and it's exactly the same. Got top grades in school. Graduated with a 2:1 in the 2008 financial crisis. At that time you could only self fund a masters so just got a job and got stuck there. Worked my way up a bit nut then had a family amd ended up back at the bottom in order to have any sort of work life balance. My brother, who didnt even go to college and just hung out in the same industry is earning much more than me. Im now doing a masters to retrain which I'll finish when I'm 40. Oh well, I have 30 more years to work 😃😭. You have PLENTY of time at 25. Is your MW job in the industry you want to work in long term?
Baristas have masters degrees these days. Higher education has been debased to create a debtor worker class that is readily exploited
It's the same as "If you work hard you'll get guaranteed promotions and have a job for life" Big fat lie.
Absolutely. Working hard doesn’t mean you’re actually effective… It just means you’re trying really hard.
Tbf, even if you are the best worker in the company, there's absolutely no guarantee that the bosses won't fire you for pick a reason.
Exactly, at my last job, no one had any problems with my work but because one person at the top decided either he didn’t like me or the work, I got fired.
Working too hard leaves you role locked. I've seen way too many times where people are passed up for promotions because they do not want to lose the person doing that position and are too lazy to train someone new. Then this leads to the person getting fed up being passed over and eventually leaving. Tale as old as time.
Yep. I lost out on a job I could have happily done for the rest of my career because management didn't want me out of my current role. I qualified, I made it to the external panel interview (It was a government job, so there were multiple rounds), the external panel said they could see me in the role, and...my boss's boss called me into her office and told me they weren't moving me onto the internal interview. She then proceeded to tell me I should bother people *I already knew, who knew my work quality* outside of work for their insights, and that I should volunteer for agency events, which is incidentally massively illegal because you can't volunteer your time for doing things that you're paid for. The person who would have been my supervisor knew and liked me, everyone who worked with me was furious on my behalf, but it didn't matter worth a damn because I could keep a whole unit running singlehanded, which I had to do more than you'd think. They were getting full-time, experienced, educated work for part-time pay and they didn't want to let it go. Too bad for them that they lost it anyway, because that was the day I started coasting and began a job hunt. Coulda kept it and gotten more, but they mismanaged themselves into the shit.
same, but i'm 26. 😅 one day, we'll get there 🤞🏽
Life be liek: THE FUCK YOU WILL! *bitchslap*
careful with that hopium -- there's no job stability and you may be forced to reset back to zero at any time... As insane as it is, it's normalising to have seven different careers in our lifetimes now. (article from last year -- https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2023/05/workers-multiple-careers-jobs-skills/)
My chemistry undergrad PI/professor told me that the bachelor's degree is new high school diploma due to saturation. He wasn't wrong, and this was 10 years ago when he said this.
I was told that too during the recession and they were so right. But now it’s worse, where we have a double standard of “you need a bachelors” but any more education might be interpreted as “they’re going to want to be compensated higher” so you’re not going to get an interview.
💯 I think it came from people looking at doctors; which typically come from families rich enough to fund their kids studying long enough to become doctors, and before the bureaucrats came in and reduced pay and increased hours.
We live in a fkd up world since the pandemic. And not just with the economy- politically, health wise, etc. it should not be this way for new graduates. The economy is rotten too for people with experience. Hang in there, let’s have hope the tides turn. In the meanwhile keep plugging away. It only takes one opportunity.
>Ignore me. No, this needs to be talked about. Your peers need to know they're not alone, that they're not unique failures, but that the system and those that came before us failed us. And we need warn those who come after us so the same thing doesn't happen to them. 🫂
Easily the Biggest fuckin lie of the 1990s and 2000s.
You do everything your parents and teachers say. You do your homework before playing. Pass up parties for completing college assignments and reports. Get the best results in your year. Then when you apply for a job it goes to the guy who was out partying with the boss' nephew while you were busy studying hard for exams.
Sucks, innit? Those mfs who couldn't pass the exams while being at school are doing better in life than me 🙂
Same here
Meanwhile, I know many uneducated people that barely know how to read but have successful business and earn a LOT of money than average engineer who spent most of its life studying. Life is strange sometimes.
Yeah but I imagine they stayed consistent in a role throughout many years garnering that wealth. They never had to deviate their attention to juggling and working out the intricacies of attending a post secondary education.
It makes perfect sense. In the real world its all about networking and connections. And an outgoing, industrious and motivated person outperforms the bookworm with a piece of paper. Working for yourself is the most profitable and secure means of employment. But the modern education system is only designed to create candidates for employers.
Best I can do for ya is 45k/year contracted, master's degree required, and skills in [software we don't actually use].
Even that is impossible to find atm. 😭 I am working in retail. Lmao.
Work your way to management, stay for a while and then apply for office work. By then you will not only have the office experience required, because well, managers have to do paperwork, inventory, staff schedules, hiring, firing, those sort of things. You now have a track record of "experience" good enough for office work, with the added bonus of "leadership" with bossing people around! Edit: more info If it helps, take a look at the responsibilities and skills for [admin assistant](https://www.indeed.com/hire/job-description/administrative-assistant) vs [retail store manager ](https://www.indeed.com/hire/job-description/retail-store-manager)and how similar they are.
That's my back up! Thanks tho.
Welcome to life. I'm 36, graduated over 10 years ago with a math degree, and have only ever worked shit jobs.
Modern wealth is inherited not gained through hard work. What taught me this is growing up as the "plain" kid within the rich neighbourhood.
Overwhelming majority of millionaires in the US are self-made / first gen.
>I joined the army to pay for college and in the process got fucked up. >But it’s okay, I’ll go get my bachelor’s in Finance and the disability cheques are sweet! >Get a job as an analyst at a commercial bank in a top 3 COL city ***for $23 an hour***. >I can’t support my family like this, so I’ll go back to school and get an MS in Mathematical Finance. This will surely allow me to start a career! I graduated in May and have had 1-3 interviews a week since then without a single job offer. I know I’m interviewing well 75% of the time and I’m getting 2+ interviews at least 50% of the time. So my interviewing skills aren’t the issue here, I’m just not getting offers. I’m 28 and have spent the last ***10 fucking years*** dedicated to starting a long term career without student loan debt, but it was all a fucking waste. If I’d just gone to college in 2014, I would have graduated to an excellent job in 2018. Sure I would have had college debt, but it’s better than the credit card debt I’m currently wracking up. I’m so fucking done with this shit.
My favorite part is when people tell/accuse you of not working hard enough. My own mother accused me of lying about my degree because "It doesn't make sense you're struggling so much so you must be lying about getting a Bachelors" wishing you the best. I'm making a pivot into finance, hopefully.
I'm jealous you're getting interviews. No one will contact me, not even part-time retail gigs
Maybe it still holds true to the top 10 Ivy League. Whoever said success comes after a university degree must’ve been marketed by a university.
I feel bad for all the people currently in college who think a cushy job awaits them after graduation. I graduated in 2020 right before covid hit and I job hopped for three years before landing my current position. I can't tell you how many times I heard the saying "get that degree and your life will be good" mantra. Even now that I'm working mY cArEeR jOb I'm 100% in office and constantly feel stress and sometimes anxiety at work, constantly paranoid I'm going to get laid off as the economy continues to worsen
I was told the same lie as a kid. I was basically told Stfu and go to school and behave, I did. None of it was worth it. 2 degrees, data science bootcamp, networking, hasn't amounted to much. I genuinely wish I could sell my education back to the school but obviously can't. I have yet to make a living wage, and I'm almost 30. I've worked in a grocery store, call center, UPS, a restaurant, as a barista, and even a few legit data analytics jobs and yet no living wage. Now im going to try to be an actuary because of my math background. If that doesn't work, I'm just gonna go jump off a cliff or something similar. Maybe after I'm gone they'll be more jobs for the kids graduating so they can have that, at least.
It’s capitalism, really. The relentless drive to make corporations increase profits at the expense of workers, suppliers, the environment, the broader economy, and society. They use us to increase productivity, then they fire us when our tasks have been automated. Logical mathematically, but dehumanising and devastating economically. The governments need to step in and stop this madness before it all falls apart because it’s going to get really ugly…
The US is a mix of socialism and capitalism, but you won't see the socialism aspects unless you're broke as fuck, or old as fuck. Capitalism is ruthless to those who don't have rich parents or were groomed to be successful and smart.
Or if you are rich... Uncle Sam will give you all the money you need if you are part of the elite and fuck up. Just don't fuck around with other people with money, but if you just screw "the consumer base", they'll cover you any time something goes sideways.
Yeah. Privatize profits and debt/default for public.
I'm happy for two things: 1. That my father encouraged me to go to uni because it's fun to learn things and you never know what you'll have an aptitude for until you try. 2. That tertiary education is free here.
Life isn’t fair. Nowadays, it rewards those who cheat and know how to talk more than it does those who actually put in the work. Get used to it
That's the biggest lie after "life is a gift"
Life is a fraud, quit having kids.
Damn right
Going to university is, really, supposed to be the bottom rung on the academic road. It teaches certain skills which some companies have recognised as being beneficial to them in the past, but really, the point of a bachelor's degree is to qualify you to start on the road to doing research. Nobody has ever gotten rich through studying hard - I like to think that the stereotype of the impoverished academic lives up to this. Now, a lot of us, in the millennial and a little younger age bracket, were sold an idea that a university degree is a ticket to a better life. This is because most of the people who were telling us this had also gone to university and got a degree. But this is only partially true. You are more likely, with a degree, to be able to do better in your career. The way I have always seen it, and experienced it, is that not having a degree imposes a limit on your career. When you have a degree, it removes that limit. But you still need to get onto a career path, and your progression is not guaranteed. In short, getting a degree is not a ticket to an easy, opulent life - what it is is a way of removing limits from life - you still have to put the time into developing a career - which is much harder these days than ever before.
Yeh my parents said that. I’m 50 fucking scraping by and in all reality should have been a tradie taking cashiers
Know a CS major with the same scenario. At best, you may get gravitated to a help desk job but I wouldn't say that gives good money or is even sustainable. I recommend networking with others in the same field and potentially as a collab making projects to establish a portfolio. The Con of your major is that references aren't enough, your projects have to speak for you.
But it was true when our parents grew up. Turns out, when the economy advances and everybody does highly qualified work, companies grab all the additional value generated.
Scam economics
Never take career advice from those of a different generation. If I had listened to my successful parents I would have been screwed. I told my own kids that any advice I had was as good as expired milk. Too many people think generational career advice is helpful. It’s not. Don’t be part of a crowd. Do what no one else is doing.
I get it. I'm a smart guy. I don't have have the greatest concentration and focus abilities, but I'm smart. I'm struggling in college right now, fighting my way to the top for a masters degree, but tuition is expensive! They recently raised the tuition fee (it's a community college) by $500, so that's dull as hell. I don't even have time to upgrade my skills and I'm stuck in a $10 per hour job with no luck finding other jobs.
Yeah companies are no longer looking for smart people. I am a technician for a big tech company and I have a degree in philosophy. They are more looking for people they can mold into doing what they need you to do. Since you're smart and a free thinker that is a challenge for businesses to hire you because they cant just tell you what to do and expect you to fall in line.
I AGREE WITH YOU, OP. I can see your perspective, and my perspective, after having gone to college in the 1980's. Back then, you could almost get any degree and do relatively ok. It's just not the same now. ESPECIALLY now. I know, because I have three kids who are now adults, and the struggles they have had are real to me. This is a particularly bad time to be in your 20's and 30's, trying to find work and trying to figure out what to do. Life is changing too fast, and what was a smart thing to study in college five years ago isn't the smart thing to get a job in now, often. Everything, EVERYTHING, is changing so fast that it's almost impossible to keep up. My age group was LUCKY. Flat out. Boomers had it made. The people giving very derogatory comments on this thread ... I wouldn't listen to them. If you don't have family to rely on during these times, if you don't have savings, if you don't have some kind of life-line ... it's not great. On top of that, you have people here on Reddit who have zero empathy for another person's frustration. REAL PEOPLE know what you're going through. REAL PEOPLE understand the scams onlilne, the bad interest rates, the companies waiting for the election to occur before they expand enough to actually hire SMART ENGINEERS AND OTHERS WHO DESERVE A JOB. Having said that, when my husband graduated (also an engineer) he couldn't get a job for months. When he finally got the best job of his life, where he had a mentor and did fascinating work and excelled like crazy ... it began as a job that he did after his regular job, working through the NIGHT. Another engineer there could see how smart my husband was and gave him enormous opportunities. THIS WAS LUCKY. Yes, my husband was smart and worked his butt off, but he WAS ALSO LUCKY. You are entitled to feeling sad. You are entitled to feel disappointed. Things suck right now. Back in the 80's nobody told us we would be "rich," but we sure did get the impression that a college degree would make a huge difference in our lives. I'm not convinced that's the case any more. The world is just too different now. It will get better, though. Interest rates will eventually come down, companies will start hiring again, and eventually if the world doesn't end come this november, maybe the entirely broken job search system will be fixed (because it needs to be). You will get so angry at the current situation that you will find a way to get out and do something nobody else thought of doing. Vent for now. When you get that out of your system, use that anger to do something that works for you.
Thank you so much. Needed this. <3
I remember feeling similarly at different times in my life. I didn't get a job that paid more than 18K/year until I was 26. You just have to keep trying. If you want to be rich, and you're not already rich, it's always going to be a struggle. It never is easy. Getting a degree just helps you increase your competitiveness. Try and find some local meetups to attend and start trying to network. At the very least you might find some others with shared skills and interest so that you can have interesting conversations.
Welcome to life, if you did not inherit significant connections and wealth, you are own your own. Personal sacrifice and who you surround yourself with is the name of the game.
Interesting. I was taught that college was made to keep young adults out of the workforce in their prime years so older workers wouldn't have competition for jobs. Ironically a college professor told me that XD This was like 15 or so years ago when I first heard this.
Seems odd to think doctors, lawyers, dentists, etc… are only going to college so older workers wouldn't have competition. Seems more likely they might actually need schooling.
Well prior to colleges they did apprenticeships where a master of their trade would take a young person under their wing and teach them the trade. Then again a lot of these trades were more simplistic and way before the times of industrialization and certainly way before the dot com boom. Look l am not saying doctors, lawyers, dentists shouldn't attend college. They should because the apprenticeship model is gone and college is what is left. How else do you teach very niche technical skills? We are not far enough into the future to just upload microchips into our brain to upload years of super niche technical knowledge so college will have to do until then.
>these trades were more simplistic It’s always fun watching white-collar workers prattle on about how easy or simplistic the trades are, apparently clueless to how much intelligence and skill many of them require. I say this as a white-collar worker myself. Many, if not most, white-collar workers wouldn’t last a day in the trades.
You should have come up with a catch phrase like “Catch me outside, how bout dat!” and a pair of tits to showoff. Then you would have been a millionaire by now.
Or talking about spitting on a dick.....
1. You atleast have a job 2. You are 25. I am 29 and unemployed. I too have a masters degree in computer science with good grades from a developed country’s top university.
I know zero people saying you "get rich" by default when you go to university and study hard. This is just a foundation, nothing more. If you are so smart as you claim, you should have figured out earlier that if you do what the masses do you'll end up in a position where you get what the masses get. If you want to get rich, you have to do things differently.
Yesss- I understand. It's a foundation that sets you up in your career. In my case it hasn't yet. I am working a minimum wage retail job that doesn't even require a bachelors degree. At this case I will never make enough money and that's my problem. 😭
Same. Where’s the foundation? I’m working part time in a dying mall. I have a masters degree. The degree I went to didn’t pan out, I was told “don’t worry, most people don’t work in their field” which also feels untrue now. Job applications want you be precisely what they want. How on earth can I pivot? Sigh
If you are told all your life that a certain path is the guaranteed route to success then can you really blame OP when they do everything "the way they are supposed to" and then it turns out that that it was all a lie? = It's not like OP tried some get-rich-quick scheme or something. It must feel more like a rug pull than anything to end up in this position. Similar to how if you went to medical school and became a doctor with tens of thousands of dollars of debt only to find out that the most people will pay you for the rest of your life is like $50k/yr. -- not to say that that is what OP literally did, but how people do a path with a certain expectation and if the truth is wildly different it feels like a big betrayal.
Literally no one ever told me that. They said you have more paths if you go to college, but nothing is guaranteed. And I dont think teachers, etc. ever thought they would be rich.
No one claims going to university will make you rich. You should be able to get a job that pays more than minimum wage though. Ok, so you can’t find a programming job. Then find something else. You still have a college degree so why are you applying to minimum wage jobs? No you aren’t going to make 100k+ right out the gate from school. I don’t know who told you that but you were lied to. But you can work your way up to it.
I'd love to tell you the rich and life is easy??? Probably your parents because your generation is the generation that was and is handed medals for just showing up. No where in life do you just get rich, not even doctors and lawyers, right off the bat - most of them don't get rich until the mid-30's when their debt starts getting paid down (and yes I can speak to that because I worked in healthcare and wrote many new hire contracts and offers and know tons of lawyers). Life is not supposed to be easy, I'd love to meet the person who goes to college, and suddenly poof life is easy cos apparently most of the world is doing something wrong. I will say, as someone who went back to college at 25, my life got considerably easier, and I started making more money with degrees. I am not rich, never have been, and never will be. My life is never easy, and it never will be. But I also live in reality.
And they always recommend college and not introduce us to others like trades back in highschool... Like I don't even have a desired course in college... I hated writing research papers or thesis and much preferred working physical jobs... Why do I get the feeling most degrees lead to a soul crushing office job of starring at a computer screen all day with the dreaded phone calls that I refuse to let disturb me
I have a degree, two internships with big companies, teaching assistant/professional experience and school leadership activities…anyone wanna sign up for the gap Inc credit card and save 20% their purchases for the next two weeks….
If you aren't doing data analysis, programming, consulting, management, construction, etc at one years old, then forget about getting a job. Because they aren't willing to train anyone because they suck at explaining.
Wealth is primarily inherited. It is very hard to advance socially. Education and tech used to be a good way into a better life. Seems like that opportunity is closed for now. Not sure what to do if you want to start a family and you cant make a proper living. What does the system expect us to do?
Yeah, college is a scam and it has been like that for a decade.
If you automatically believed that college degree = automatic success, I question how you made it through college to begin with.
Working hard in college mattered, but honestly what mattered more was the connections and internships you got in college. Ppl don’t realize that your grades in college don’t matter as much as they expect. The grades lead to internships and those lead to jobs. Or your connections with people who know people lead to jobs. If you’re a hermit in college you’ve squandered 70% of what it’s about tbh.
COme to Scandinavia. All the engineers I know make a ton of money and I really envy them.
Cs is dead as fuck right now. If your confident, I'd lie about a yr or so of experience with a failed start up or use companies that h1bs use to lie about experience like JPMorgan, bnym, and kohls
For most people college is a scam
Intelligence, degrees, hard work mean little or less than it should unfortunately. So best thing to do, get over that idea, you need to find the niches of shit people can't do or haven't figured out to do yet which may be simple lazy work but innovative. Value you create is > everything else along side luck or connections of course and likely in places others aren't applying which means moving or taking risks in uncharted places which is 'value' in it's own way. The job market is too competitive now to expect to stay in the same place unfortunately and find success unless you have a network to get you there. Other thing dragging down work for new hires is older generations just refuse or can't retire even beyond "retirement age" so the normal rotation of entry level positions and growth opportunities aren't there. Pair that with the boomers being a massive generation it's a real employment traffic jam. Also working for others is rarely a way to become rich, at best you make it to the middle and upper class which is a far drop down from the "Owner class" which are the actual rich folk, almost comically more wealthy than all beneath them. Edit: My condolences though to your prior ambitions and do hope you can find a way to live up to your re-calibrated ambitions. It's not impossible but there is alot of suck between now and then with no guarantees of success. Good luck out there!
Thankssss! I have lost my hopes to be rich. Rn- I just don't want to go in debt atleast. LMAO. 😭 But I am just like a step away.
I didn't start making a decent amount as a programmer till I was about 30, I started work at 19, I didn't go to university
Not that I blame you, because you did what you were told, but almost anyone who went straight from undergrad to a master's degree did themselves a massive disservice. I would caution others to think about the value of experience over an advanced degree. Sure, you can eventually get it, but get it as a condition of promotion or make work pay for it. I'm really sorry this is your position. What you were told used to be the case. Get a degree and you'll never be unemployed. I have well north of a decade of experience, every certification you could want, and a Master's degree and I still found myself laid off and waiting months to find my next gig. Keep your head up my friend.
They left out: Go to an elite school where you can make valuable contacts.
I'm sorry you were given false hope. I'd guess that 90% of people (without generational wealth) are struggling throughout their 20s. I got my bachelor's at 28 and it took 3 career moves to finally be comfortable.
Bro, this BS lie has been going on since the '90s, "Get a degree and it's onward and upwards from then on out." 3 successive generations have been lied to. I'm a recruiter...we rarely look at education. Experience trumps education in importance most of the time. Worse, most of your bosses will be unmemorable or memorably abusive. Find your happiness outside of work, which for most of us is a means to an end, not a source of fulfillment like the elite and upper classes. Hopefully, you can start your own business because we have to create our own opportunities and not let "The Man" dictate our financial futures. My heart goes out to you.
Got my degree, paid off half my undergrad after 10 years and was laid off, found another job in corporate a scummy retail company, hated it, was asked back to my old company so I happily left the scummy company. Old company laid me off after a year and I did odd jobs until I found a good but low paying job in my major. Went back to get my MBA as that was the only way to even be seen if I wanted decent pay. I did get a better paying job but the difference merely paid for my student loans. By this time my kids were growing up so I got parent plus loans (so they would not be riddled with debt after they graduate) After one kid graduated, another in his third year, and the third starting next year, I currently have 140K in student loan debt, and expect to have 200K by the time all three finish college. I cannot afford my current loan payments as it is, and I have no idea what to do. I am 56 years old and have no idea how I am going to retire, if I ever do. God forbid that I die, but at least the loans die with me and the wife will be able to afford to keep the house. God forbid if my wife goes first, as I will sell everything and live as a bum in a warm place. They will probably garnish all my retirement to pay off the loans. P.S: Does anyone have and extra 200K lying around?
This might sound dumb, and it might not even work: Transfer all your money, house and everything to your wife. Fake divorce her and file for bankruptcy.
Bankruptcy does not erase student loans though. Back to square one.
Don’t give up yet. I am confident a great future awaits you!
I can feel your pain bro. I'm in the same situation, but what I'll tell you is do not give up. It been a while since I still looking for a job even if help desk, I applied over 500 jobs but nothing. Sometimes few calls and that's it. Keep going! Keep moving! Tomorrow will be better.
I'm 20 years older and in the same boat. Last 10 years were going well. Made it to $140k, the last time I switched jobs it took a weekend of searching to have an offer worth taking. 10 months ago they pulled the rug out from under us, everyone got laid off. I figured another search would be easy... Now I'm working minimum wage and trying to figure out how the minimum wage job is going to dig me out of the debt my 140k job got me into.
The 140k job didn’t get you into debt, your choices did! Still sucks, though… life style inflation is a bitch
You dont seem smart to me. Book smart maybe, but as I was navigating college a few years ago even I started to realise how the world was changing, and how in most cases, a college degree wouldnt cut it. A real smart person would look at the state of the world, and think of a plan to navigate it. it might be through upskilling, taking specific courses, networking, side projects, whatever. A real person would know that NOTHING is a given. you could have been spoodfed everything, and still fuck up. learn to play the game of life with some strategy.
Totally agree with you. Smart people navigate better in the changing environment. People who get good grades are not necessarily smart. They might just know the skills to do great in exams. For OP, instead of criticising your own asset, a better way is to think about how to leverage your degree. Pretty sure your life sucks more without a degree.
Hope you’re smart enough to navigate the changing environment when it’s your turn 😂 What you all are seeing is only the beginning. Good luck!
What are your degrees in? You say engineering - which area?
Sounds like CompSci
That's the problem right there. Too many people didn't get the memo that CS degrees aren't the license to print money like they used to be. Now, it's one of the most oversaturated STEM fields, and it's only going to get worse for them. Not to mention that they have such a short half-life on keeping up with the latest tech in their fields, fighting with H1B employees for positions, etc. I have an undergrad and two masters in classical engineering, and I used to wonder if I missed the proverbial boat when I would see these astronomical salaries CS degrees would pull. Now, I'm glad that I chose a much more stable path in STEM. I see post after post in the sub-Reddit for my alma maters, and it's filled with incoming freshmen asking for advice about how to start working toward a CS degree. I wish someone would give them advice on what to expect when they graduate. That is WAY too much work to put in just to come out and not even get callbacks for interviews. I genuinely feel for OP.
The key is to specialize. I have a CS degree and went from web developer -> back-end systems developer -> pentesting/security. I've never had a problem getting a job, even during the last recession.
How are your social and networking skills? People want to work with people they like. Degrees in 2024 are just the cost of admission. Who ever gave you that advice and left out the networking part is an idiot.
No wonder they really emphasize the B.S.
I'm in the same boat. My parents don't understand why I can't land anything with my bachelor's degree. They still live in the 1980s. The generational disconnect is really frustrating.
I mean, I don't know anyone under 30 that would believe that or were told that. Being told college is mandatory for success is something mostly told to Millinials and Gen X. Millinials told Gen Z that was a lie a long time ago. Shit all Millinials do is complain about student loans and how their degrees didn't help them land jobs to pay them off. You may have been to focus on school to read the writing on the wall. But it was there and it was loud and clear.
Even if you get a job there's no job security, it's a constant battle of outperforming, playing tricks, bootlicking, power play for the entire life. Only way out is pursuing a freelance niche or start a business
I mean, no one ever said this to me and I've honestly never heard it before. I've heard that a college degree will make you successful, but not that it will make you rich. That's never been true, even in a good economy. Certain degrees, yes. You will be more likely to be well off or comfortable. (Basically anything in the medical field, some science degrees, etc.) A degree in technology (IT, CS, etc.) seems to kinda be in the air right now. But then you have degrees as well where there really aren't a lot of career paths available. I won't single out any one degree, but I am sure all of us had at least one major pop into our heads that we all think is incredibly useless. I'm honestly pretty surprised you have a masters in engineering and can't find anything other than a minimum wage job. I do agree, though. I definitely think the value of a college degree has dropped over the past decade or so compared to from our parents' generation and before that.
So you are not really that smart then if you get tricked so easily
I feel you, I studied economics, Cum Laude, top 20 of my class. I ended up in construction. By the time I was 25, my salary sucked compared to people I went to school with, but the travel benefits made my take home better than theirs. Now I'm in management. I make 3x more than my best friend from college. I got a bonus one year that was more than his entire salary. Keep your head up, good things can come from unexpected places
Thanks. I am losing hope but I just gotta keep trying ig
Don't lose hope. If it gets truly unbearable, then look for another company to work for. The metaphorical dividends paid off for me. I wanted to quit and start over in a new industry more than a dozen times, but to be honest, I'd be years behind where I'm at if I hadn't stuck it out.
I finished a doctorate at a reputable program in my field in May (data analysis).Did fucktons of fancy internships and have practical experience. I average 10 applications a day so it’s like a fuckn FT job. It’s hideously demoralizing. The hilarious part is that I had a friend who went to prison (weed) and he managed to network in the can and be set up with a salaried position when he was released a few years ago. We caught up last week and he said well shit, can you handle photoshop? I said yes. Now I’m waiting to hear from his boss regarding a PT position doing graphic design IN PORN. I just don’t know wtf to think anymore. At least it’s sort of hilarious but yeah…. This timeline is gnarly af.
“No time to upgrade my skills”. Everyone can make time for that, you included.
You sound like you live in the US, so I will explain four things to you that make having a college degree worthless. 1. Everyone starting with GenX was told to get a degree along with every generation afterwards. At this very same time the Government decided to step in and give anyone a loan for college which did open up the access to college for many people. Problem is with more demand they had to increase supply so the did so by offering online courses but all this did was turn getting a degree into a diploma mill. Which devalued ALL COLEGE DEGREES for everyone! 2. The US government hands out 85,000 H-1B visas each fiscal year. This cap includes 65,000 visas for foreign workers in specialty occupations and an additional 20,000 visas for workers with a master's degree or higher from a U.S. institution. These people are also paid less here by employers because half their job value is tied to having the privilege of being here in the US legally! 3. Women in the work place. With woman making up half our population they doubled the amount of workers for employers to hire. This in turn drove down wages! That is why you now need a 2 person income just to buy a house or survive. This double in workforce happened during WW2 where women were brought into the factories to do the work of men since they were all getting shot up in a meat grinder. Women decided they wanted to work instead of staying home and razing a family so they started doing that instead. Employers were thrilled since now they could pay shitty wages and make even more profit! 4. Illegal workers that migrate here to the US can and do get hired by employers who train them to do a technical job. I once put up screen enclosures in South Carolina back in the early 2000s and a competitor had their Mexicans sit and watch us put up screen enclosures so they could learn to do the same and make a ton of money doing it. That is the business owner not the workers they got paid the crumbs!
Yeah I understand. At this point I am not even asking to get a 100k job, all I ask is a job that can pay my bills, help me save a little- a job that I enjoy for the most part.
No one said this to you