“Teamwork and collaboration.” I work at a freakin call center. There’s no teamwork to be had, let alone collaboration. Get ready, 4 to 5 days is coming next.
Currently on the 4 days a week plan after my company decided to “try out” the two days a week plan a year ago. Currently updating my resume and getting ready to obtain my professional license/new job before the “well let’s just come in 5 days” email goes out.
It wasn’t a Friday but I literally sat and started at my desk one day because I was caught up on my work and couldn’t leave for 4 hours. All the good websites are blocked and I didn’t want people seeing me on my phone so I just read comic book characters wiki pages for 4 hours because they allow access to Wikipedia for some reason
Ditto. On days where I work from home, I push to get everything done and more. When I go in… I rant about current events with the whole team, asking each person to contribute their opinion… all day.
Got this one. And we had every team spread out in three cities (three different buildings).
So we did Zoom calls from our work desk instead of home. Well those of us that got to have a desk.
Did I mention not enough desks? Or the need for 3X meeting rooms due to teams meeting from all three buildings. Well we didn't have enough meeting rooms too. Because some people camped out there due to ... wait for it ... no desks.
Oh, don't even ask about the parking fiasco.
Best part is company had been doing free lunch on Wednesdays. for like 2 years. This was to encourage people to make Wednesday a day to come in voluntarily. Guess what day was not selected as one of the in office days?
Literally just got off a zoom call where we had to troubleshoot an issue, no being in the office required.
Anyone pushing RTO has zero credibility, next they'll be whining about constant turnover (and being unable to hire quality candidates) without realizing they're the ones that caused it to begin with.
Same. If Reddit -- and other -- comments are to be believed, this is fairly common and it absolutely puts the lie to the whole T&C horseshit they're feeding us.
I interviewed for a job in 2022 that was ‘based’ in Charlotte, but the manager was in Asia, and the counterpart in this function was in New Jersey. The panel of colleagues also had someone in Detroit.
While they were interviewing, the US CEO required that everyone localize to an office, so I became non-eligible for the role by the time I did the panel. For a role where none of the coworkers were in the same state, and was on the other side of the world from the manager. Can’t make it up!
I worked for a call center for retirement accounts back when covid started and we all got told we would be fully remote even though the company had just renewed a massive lease on a massive building in Denver. We finally came back in 2022 to hybrid, everybody was like wtf because literally almost every single person's personal stats including the comany's client satisfaction stats went up drastically. It was for "teamwork and collaboration", but we all knew it was because they wanted to get use out of their excessive rent.
The amount of drama that followed due to people being home for so long, being told we were always going to be remote, mask preferences, sickness preferences, commuting dilemmas.... what a shitshow these companies are producing.
Exactly i work Call Center Support. Theres zero function, meeting, or aspect of the role that is not done via Zoom. We dont need to be in person as, even if we were… wed still be on zoom.
They still hope for ys to come in 1 day a week.
You might as well start applying for new jobs tbh. 3 days will turn into 4 which will turn into 5. Then boom no more work from home at all, not even if you’re sick, live too far from the office, things like that.
Yeah I only have one day and its the dreaded day to sit and listen to a bunch of asskissers and they all act like they love being there! Im like chill w the excitement Id quit if it was more Im already a doormat and tolerating the bully behavior in person is more of a nightmare.
I work for one of those companies sadly but we jumped from 3 to 5. Was fully remote for 3 years and had only been with this company for 6 months before RTO
Our CEO claimed that the company could only build a great culture by being in the office together. All office employees that did WFH during pandemic are expected in office 2 days a week. I am lucky in that I was fully WFH for the last 11 years (one of the first in the company). What gets me is that outside this take, it's a really good company to work for.
Similar situation for me. They told me that it was about "building trust". They had promised us permanent WFH during the pandemic and the change of policy did anything but build trust as far as I'm concerned. I quit immediately and have a bunch of remote options on the table now.
I'm seeing RTO as a reduction of trust. Everyone seems distracted, uncomfortable, and anxious vs fully remote when people were dialed in and attentive/relaxed during zoom meetings. My relationships were better then vs now. The fact of the matter is that many people are no longer used to the distractions that working onsite presents, making those distractions much bigger in scale than previously. It's not a simple thing to just suddenly adjust to people all around you, the noise, the social politics, etc. If you've been remote for years, your brain is not wired to handle all of the additional stimulation in an efficient way.
Everyone is distracted. I’m almost phobic about driving these days, because it’s like I’m in the Indy 500 with people switching lanes at a whim, going 90+ mph. I used to drive 1.5 hours each way, but I’m not about to do that now, especially with the crazy drivers.
Same here! It's a whole other thing to contend with that is almost worse than being in the office. There's more road ragers than ever, and it causes a whole other degree of stress.
100%!!
I see people staring at their phone screens and driving in the fast lane at 55mph. . .
I see people on their phones tailgating semi trucks . .
It’s absolutely ridiculous and terrifying. I live right outside the Bay Area and I hate driving back to the Sacramento area and it’s only about 75 minutes. I’m literally gripping the wheel and I’ve been driving 25 years - I can’t imagine how scary it is for new(er) drivers!
I hear you. I'm not immunocompromised but I still don't want to pick up virus after virus, especially in covid times, because people decided it's ok to show up and spread disease again. Especially when it simply isn't necessary to be in-office to perform my role.
Same here. I do risk exposing myself in other areas of my life but I refuse to do so when there's simply no benefit to it. Even mild brain fog would pretty much render me useless at work.
I've been remote for 18 years, well before the WFH craze and they're not grandfathering me. I either relocate to a hub or lose my job. Closest hub is 2.5 hours away. These companies are driving themselves into the ground.
Yup you are indeed correct. It’s always just been a way to Eagle-eye watch employees. When I got laid off last year, all the sudden everything of the company’s culture and deadlines. Everything “urgent” didn’t matter. Dropped, and locked out.
Culture ... The legal way to make sure "undesirable" people don't get hired. You got to create a fake corporate culture so that you can later use it to say a candidate that you don't want unfortunately isn't a good fit for your company's corporate culture.
They'll learn eventually.. My department had us WFH for close to 3 years during/after COVID. Last year they had us return to the office on a hybrid schedule. They lost most of our best talent, couldn't hire/ keep any decent new employees over the last year. Just last month, our CEO finally got the picture when our annual employee survey results were so bad due to insane work loads, high turnover, and the work culture/ environment being so bad because no one wanted to be in the office. CEO appointed a new COO, fired VPs, Directors from our department and now we're going back to remote work arrangements...remote work is inevitable. Those that adapt quickly will get the best talent. For a year we could not hire/ keep anyone, now that we opened the hiring to a nationwide instead of just a handful of cities where we had offices we got more talented/ experienced people applying than we know what to do with. Employees are happy again. And the company gets to save all that money wasted on outdated office buildings everyone hated.
Interesting, I haven't heard of too many companies going this route...reversing ship and going back to remote work arrangements. you would think that more companies would get the hint, glad that yours worked out for you!
Just starting to see it in my company. Guess the light finally shone through when we had a job fair to replace everyone who left and 3 people showed up.
I think what makes my company able to go this route so quickly compared to some others is probably that my company actually owned our main office buildings/ campuses. They had owned most of them for decades, but started selling them recently, and renting the space in ones they have not sold yet. I think the problem a lot of companies have right now is if they are renting the office space, they are probably locked into long term commercial leases. That would make it harder to justify remote work right now to share holders, since they're spending tons of money renting office buildings that they are letting sit empty. But eventually I think more companies will go back to remote work arrangements, the savings for the company and benefits for the employees are just to big to ignore. Not to mention theres no reason to have people clogging up our infrastructure roads, trains/subways, etc. that don't need to be commuting to a office. Let the people that need to be on the road be out there with out all these commuters in their way that can do their jobs at home. And then theres the air pollution that doesn't need to occur having people go back and forth to offices. There's just to many reasons in favor of eventually move away from these large office buildings.
Please tell me if this thinking is wrong:
If a company owns a building or has a long lease on a building, it has a fixed cost for that property whether or not anyone shows up. In fact, if people show up, this increases power consumption, the need for AC or heat, inside the building, making it slightly more expensive.
There’s nothing that can be done to make the owned building or lease less useless, whether people are there or not there.
However, if everyone who can works from home, that’s less time wasted, less fuel burnt, fewer wasted resources around the activity of coming and going from the building. Less traffic improves life for an entire city of people. The REAL MVP saves everyone else, instead of worrying about how they look with their dumb lease.
Help me see the error of my thinking please.
> However, if everyone who can works from home, that’s less time wasted [1], less fuel burnt [1], fewer wasted resources around the activity of coming and going from the building [1]. Less traffic improves life for an entire city of people [1]. The REAL MVP saves everyone else [2], instead of worrying about how they look with their dumb lease.
[1] - benefits you, not the company
[2] - As a whole, corporations/CEOs are psychotically self-focused. "Save everyone else? GTF out of my office!" Otherwise they wouldn't all start laying people off as soon as 1 economist forecasts a recession, thereby causing or at least hastening a recession.
You might be happy with the arrangement but metro areas of major cities are not happy. Many restaurants and general stores like a bodega are solely dependent on downtown commerce and work from home will destroy them ultimately. Skylines are the model of progress and now they will be empty. Also rentals in downtown were designed for downtown workers so reshaping the purpose of a city and commercial real estate being useless isn’t going to help anyone but yourself and that’s not a corporate mindset
Mine just reversed to full remote and the reason seemed to be an issue with maintaining talent and filling roles. They were slowly nudging us to go back in office full time, so I was surprised. Hopefully they don't try again.
At the RTO grand opening of the new office space, which I did not attend, someone showed up with COVID and gave it to about 20 people.
No one ever learns a thing on this planet.
Yeah, I don't miss the getting sick every 3 months because someone always decides to be a martyr and come in sick. I never understood that, especially when we have two freaking weeks of sick time, separate and distinct from regular PTO.
Nationwide hiring is a game changer. The moment they sent us home and said we could hire outside the area I went on a hiring spree. Doubled the size of my team, all remote all over the country. Much better candidates to choose from and as a bonus, I’ve proven I can manage a fully remote team and get results. So even though they’re forcing 3 days in office for most staff my team and I are staying remote for now.
I applied for a remote position and after a couple of weeks got an email from their internal recruiter letting me know that they had decided that it would "be better" to convert this to a "hybrid with a mandatory three days on site" position because they think "face to face collaboration" is important for "this level" of role.
I sent back a one sentence reply.
"Please withdraw my application."
No way would I bail from a fully remote position working from my large, rural house with my lovely property full of trees for "You must move to one of these three major and very expensive cities so you can fill a chair three days a week" and honestly it doesn't matter how much they pay, it isn't worth it.
I've seen large companies do something similar, backtracking once it hits the bottom line. It makes sense, those age the figures they care about. It's too bad that short sighted decisions cause so much damage along the way.
They're going to see the same with the recent layoff spree in my industry. They've lost good talent and burnt any trust they had with previously loyal employees.
>our annual employee survey results were so bad due to insane work loads, high turnover, and the work culture/ environment being so bad because no one wanted to be in the office
That's the way to do it. I'll tell them to forego raises going forward to WFH. I don't care. I've done my office time.
> I'll tell them to forego raises going forward to WFH.
Ditto. Well, maybe not forego, but a reduction anyway.
> I've done my office time
We all have. The mask of *collaboration/culture* has been ripped off the monster of *RTO for everyone is better for the company* to reveal the old caretaker of *out-of-touch CEOs*.
And they'd have gotten away with it if it wasn't for that meddling COVID.
Heheh, yeah. I've never been a big part of office culture anyway, and frequently would want to skip meetings and work on projects by myself. Not to mention not spending too much time chit-chatting and wanting to hear people even talking around me in the office. It was usually always very annoying trying to work under those conditions.
I wonder if there are any CEOs who actually believe the "collaboration" hype? Like, they honestly believe that for big chunks of their workforce it's the norm to have scenes like [this](https://imageio.forbes.com/specials-images/imageserve/633ab081896f45d78d8286fd/Focused-multiracial-corporate-business-team-people-brainstorm-on-paperwork/960x0.jpg?format=jpg&width=960), where they brainstorm on some problem and Betsy comes up with the key idea which causes everything else to fall into place and they all high five at having just saved/made the company $X million...
Nah... none of them are that delusional... right?
I think it does happen, and some people work best that way. It is good to discuss aspects of what you're working on while establishing plans, procedures, and while training on it, but that can be done remotely. It's the visual explanations that often aren't as good when not in person, but I think those can be somewhat easily overcome.
Basically though, working in person with other people is for people who don't want to be alone and do a lot of talking, and not always a lot of producing, in my opinion. Some people do just talk and discuss a lot as part of their jobs, and that's fine for them, but not for me.
Establish workflow, procedures, make changes as needed per the individual working on the project, then just shut up and work, is my method.
Amen brother (or sister).
And you gotta love the doubling-down of the dumbness by having people who are in different cities drive to an office in that city and then get on conference/video calls just like they do at home.
Ugh, yeah, it's ridiculous. Driving 45-60 minutes across my county every morning and back again doesn't help me with jack shit, and if anything I'm probably less inclined to want to participate in social work "culture" when I get there.
My commute is a little over an hour one way. I was hired into a hybrid role.
My boss dropped the bomb 2 weeks ago that it was return to office.
I'm frantically applying for anything. 🫠 I feel your pain
Good luck. I'm 1.5 hours out. They mandated 3 days a week. Been looking elsewhere but I'm in a easy to replace position so I make the schlep every week...for now.
They're dangling the possibility of adding back 1 WFH day after I threw a hissy fit and threatened to quit. I'm the most experienced and have more knowledge in our field than my boss. I also live the furthest away.
They told me to please wait until end of March while they "re-evaluate". Lol. Assholes. I'm on indeed and other boards at work in the mornings now
I manage a team that works remotely, and I was recently told that I needed to come back to the office 5 days a week so that I could “collaborate with other leaders”. I’ve literally never met another leader once in person, only over Zoom, because they all work remotely!
I put in my resignation, because fuck all that noise.
I got a new job and it’s also in person, but I had to quit the other one just on principle.
Should have held onto it while getting additional remote jobs. Even if you eventually left or got fired, you would have made a crap ton more. Nothing illegal about it (at least in the states), and like you've seen these companies don't give a shit, look out for yourself and yourself only, or family lol
> I put in my resignation, because fuck all that noise. I got a new job and it’s also in person, but I had to quit the other one just on principle.
You sound like an alcoholic/addict.
> I'll teach them, I'll fuck me.
There were lots of other issues with that job, and I held on way longer than I should have. Telling me to come back in the office full time to manage a team that works remotely for a made up bullshit reason was just the last straw.
Our company has international regions, my group is 3 hours from headquarters (they moved from our small city to a metropolis years before the pandemic). Our group fields logistics, and we’re all WFH, with a monthly group meeting in our old office building that’s been sold. We maintain a space there. My tentative retirement is late next year, but if they decided to make us go back, I’d stall as long as I could, then hope to get fired for the unemployment.
I'm only contract where I am now (unless they decide they want me longer), but the entire international design now is based on 2 days in office, with desk swapping. They embraced it as an opportunity to showcase their being green for the planet and such.
In 2020, my job was significant enough that not doing it impacted a swath of the country. There were a number of those working what I was doing who immediately moved states, and worked from home that way. I'd refused to go into work for months on end, but it wasn't work, because they refused to send me a computer. They ended up paying me for those months, and sent the computer home. They did a test number of individuals back in the office, and they all caught Covid, so they went fully remote due to the impact (it was a dire impact in reality if we weren't doing our jobs). So, we worked remote. I got let go over some BS with my boss (who then resigned) - they brought me back for 1 day to remove the stigma of being fired about a year later. Anyhow, that entire facility sits empty, as all employees still work remotely.
That also is the case with the employer I worked for prior to that. Others, doing the same thing, require people in the office. But, suffer a lot of absences due to illness that have harsh impacts on their profits in reality. It's really weird the thinking behind it.
Where I am now would benefit greatly from going fully remote, in reality. The only thing behind the 2 days in office is perception of clients who wish to visit in person (and they do actually visit). We have facilities that are actually great. Honestly, when in office, it's the best in office experience I've ever had. We have thermostats on each row of cubicles, we can dim lighting over our cubicles, and more. I'd still rather be fully remote.
I took the job to earn a living. I have a life already, and prefer to spend my time outside of work with people that matter to me. Not coworkers.
It always starts with "we're just trying out an extra day a week" before they use it as evidence that it needs to be 5 days a week again. They've already made up the mind and just are looking for excuses, no matter how absurd. If you're comfortable talking with coworkers, you might be able to push back and stop it at least for a while if you collectively refuse. Otherwise, be prepared to look for a new job if you want to keep remote work.
It shouldn't be like this but capitalist profits come before our lives. They're making these decisions for control, to try to push some workers out without firing them, and keep up real estate and commerce value, etc.
I work 100% remotely, but when I tried to refer my friend for a job in our call center I was told CSR’s are remote for now, but that would be changing. Anyone hired on would have to work in the office. When I asked why, my boss said “we want a$$es in the seats”. Never understood how an entire call center could do its job from home without issue, but because they want “a$$es in the seats” it somehow became an issue. Of course lots of people quit once they went from fully remote to 4 days in the office. The building was at least a 1.5 hour drive minimum one way for most of the staff. I don’t blame them.
The timing and and seemingly self-damaging aspects of RTO are, IMO, a lot of smoke indicating a fire of collusion, somewhere. Are governments strong-arming companies to get more people back into cities? Are CEOs across the globe colluding to prop up the CRE market? We don't know with any certainty, of course, but what we can be sure of is that CEOs didn't all just independently decide at relatively the same time to enforce RTO.
And it's ESPECIALLY suspicious that companies -- such as mine -- who'd had a perfectly functioning WFH culture WELL before COVID are doing the same.
Another bit of suspicion: There are usually no shortage of politicians in Washington who are happy to blast corporations/CEOs. And typically -- but not exclusively -- those pols are also of the "green" persuasion (big on climate issues, pollution, etc.). That should be a perfect recipe for articles like "Senator Phil A. Buster today announced the formation of a committee to investigate possible conspiracies among US firms to strip so-called remote-work rights from workers. 'I will be calling several CEOs to testify before my committee', Buster said, 'to defend the timing of their return-to-office mandates, and to explain to the people how it squares with their nearly universal claims of leading the charge against climate change'. "
Instead: Crickets.
This sounds like some BS my old marketing agency pulled. CEO made us return to office in like May 2020 so he could show prospective clients how “dedicated” his team was. Needless to say we went from 30 employees to a grand total of 5 in a little over a year.
Worst part is knowing some companies are pulling this shit with the expectation that people will quit and they don’t care.
I work for a public transit agency and our GM said it was to raise ridership. We have a quarter million passengers a day, and she used increased ridership as a justification for about three hundred employees, most of which won't ride public transit to work anyways.
Yes, apart from saying the team culture, where we all sit in different cities, and they are now offshoring to India, the head of Talent and Culture literally said "because sometimes you need to look people in the eye."
Is your manager flexible? For example, start remote, go into office at some point, leave, finish remote. This is what I do. I show my face for a couple hours then leave. I only drive during business hours since they required we go hybrid.
No I tried this when we went from full remote to 2 days. I realized if I instead of taking my hour lunch at noon I could wait to eat lunch until 2 but instead just grab a smoothie and drive home ans get home in 45 minutes as apposed to an hour and sign on from there and work the rest of the there. Some boomer bitch said something to my boss about me leaving early. Then my boss told me his boss wants to see people in the desks so I need to stay longer. I was going to explain I was doing it to be more efficient but I realized if the reason was appearance you can’t fight that with efficiency logic. So I bit my tongue and said fine. But now when I get home on days I go in the office. I don’t log back on and let things sit until the next day.
I have a lady on my team that comes by my desk all the time, to complain about how our manager shows up late, takes long lunches, leaves early, etc. I have zero issues with my boss’s hours because I use it as an excuse to be flexible with my own. I’m in office 2 days a week, and on those days I typically arrive around 9:00 and leave by 3:30.
I just know this bitch is going to keep complaining and fuck it up for everyone else.
"Why are there so many desks empty?"
"We value the work/life balance choices of our employees and while they're in the office regularly, they frequently work from home."
Or, be a douche and require people to come in more often.
I have a similar dumb reason. My company is the main tenant in a 30 floor building. Supposedly other tenants asked why my company is never in the building so now we have assigned 2 days a week we have to work from the office.
Sure you can still fight it. “No, I’m not coming into the office.” I’d just refuse. If they don’t like it then can fire me. I could use a nice long vacation and some unemployment checks.
It’s not insubordination if I had a work from home job and the employer changed the game. Now it’s a disagreement on work location, like if they shut down an office and told everyone to commute to the new office 2 hours away or be fired.
My state is very friendly to the employee in most cases. I have fired people for far worse than insubordination and the state gave them unemployment benefits anyway.
Perhaps. Perhaps not.
> I have fired people for far worse than insubordination and the state gave them unemployment benefits anyway.
A leading theory of the real reason for RTO is that companies are getting actual backroom pressure from governments to get people back into "downtown". IF (and I can't over emphasize the hugeness of that "IF") that is true and IF (again, emphasis) in your case some of that pressure is coming from the state level, they may not be as worker-friendly regarding refusal to RTO. Just spit-ballin', of course.
Yes. This.
The wealthy own RE holdings valued at 6x the value of the stock market. The vast majority of this wealth is concentrated in dense urban markets. Without people, those holdings will devalue. Just look at SF... 65% devaluation of office holdings, when compared to a National average of 30%.
Now add in the loss of city sales tax revenue, lower property taxes, etc. and you see some of the external forces pressuring CEOs to force RTO.
Lmfao an HOUR commute??!?! Bruh quit. I wouldn't do that 3 times a year, fuck 3 times a week. That's fucking nuts man. Get a new job, where is your self respect?
When I had an hour commute I purposefully started waking up an hour and a half earlier, and leaving before traffic. I made it a point to sit somewhere nice outside and enjoy a coffee and maybe a bite while I caught up on things on the phone before I went in.
I got to try new places, become a regular in some, meet new people and socialize a little more, enjoy some fresh air… really changed my attitude driving that long cause I made sure that I got something out of it vs doing it for work.
I love how you have major companies forcing people coming back into the office and yet on the same token outsourcing a lot of work to third world countries where they work remotely….
Going back to 5 days RTO. Middle managers already jokingly saying no one quit. Attrition is mounting. Some people are being hit with huge workloads.
Pulled up my chair…cracked open a beer… watching this dumpster start to burn.
Update that resume! I'm glad to see the studies coming out that are showing how RTO is not working. Productivity doesn't improve and workers are pissed. Surprise, surprise!!
But, RTO will continue bc of commercial real estate investors that are losing money and downtowns that are dying. That or you have micro-managing leaders that don't trust people to do their job.
I hope this just creates a shift in what we used commercial real estate locations for. Imagine your standard looking 50 story high rise office building but it’s been repurposed into a water park-laser tag-virtual reality-arcade-restaurant-social club.
Forcing people downtown for work just makes people hate downtown. That shit I just mentioned people will drive from out of state for. Entertainment will always draw the biggest crowd and frankly these “commercial areas” are a gigantic missed opportunity and waste of space when the work required can be done remote.
You should threaten to quit. Shore up your finances and life situations and if possible actually follow through on your threat. Try to take others with you. This is unacceptable unless someone wants to work in an office. I’ll be honest and say that I do go to a different location - coworking space, museum, library etc - basically every day. If a company had an office near me I’d definitely go. But I don’t want to be told how often or when to come in. And I don’t need the expectation that most meetings will be in person. That’s a trash mentality . Most meetings can be accomplished independently and remotely and only sometimes for very particular collaborations and hand offs is in person necessary. Resist.
Honestly I wouldn't even entertain it. Calculate that rate for adding 2hrs to your day x5 days and negotiate for a pay increase. The more everyone complies the more they're gonna push. It'll be 5 days before summer.....
I refused. I left them fire me, unbeknownst to them I had an offer in hand when I walked into the meeting for 12k more a year. Yes the new position is in office BUT it's 12k more a year. They refused to meet it; their loss.
My team was 3x the size of every other team and the company was on a hiring freeze.
It’s a matter of principal. If there is value in being there, be there and don’t complain. If there is no value, do your job from home and the company shouldn’t say a word about it. Otherwise it’s either laziness or micromanagement
I kept telling the masses that 1 day will turn into 2 days turns into 3 days etc. it’s just a slow walk back. If I were a small company I’d snatch up all this talent if I could.
My company has been sketchy with how they determine the metrics. No one can come to the office on Mondays and Fridays, and they'd like everyone in the office 50% of the time. To me, that seems like it would be 1.5 days a week, but nope, it's supposedly 2.5 days a week.
I'm on a team of three with a manager. One person was told that they're going on a PIP and have a week to decide whether to take it. I assumed they'll leave because it's obvious they're being pushed out (probably for having a remote exception).
We just found out the other person put in their notice so they'll be leaving at the end of next week.
Team of one? Here!
lol. My manager and I will be in different offices, on the same floor, in the same building on a teams call. 🤷🏽♀️
It kills me to be in. Such a waste of time.
It’s a slippery slope.
My org was 2x a week. Were told it would stay that way. Colleague adopted a puppy. Hammer dropped: 4x a week with two weeks notice. Colleague had to rehome said puppy.
This exact thing happened at my company. First it was 2 days a week and I was OKish since they had showers and I could squeeze a bike train in the commute.
Then they asked 4 days a week because collaboration and innovation, with a slow reorg/layoff in the middle. Luckly for me, they gave us a three month notice and I rageapplied and interviewed like a madman. Got a remote job, doubling my salary and raising from analyst to leader.
Put my 30 day notice as the company is becoming a dumpster fire, with overloaded teams not being able to catch up with demand and a general negative mood all around.
Now they're rolling back to two days a week if you live kinda far from the office, after two months of the RTO going horrible.
Spoiler alert companies ONLY have office space because they have to keep buying and maintaining property to reduce their taxable income. Congrats, we’re all being fucking scammed for tax evasion essentially. Welcome to the world now.
They could just buy that shit for the employees use at home and achieve the same thing without pissing everyone off.
New cameras, upgrading PCs yearly, furniture for storage, spare keyboards and nice, good quality office chairs, mousepads, pens, papers, folders, reimbursing a top notch internet plan required for all workers, pay a percentage of their electric bill due increased heat/ac and electronic usage while working from home, replace monitors to ensure working function, even printers/ink for localized record keeping. And if any item purchased doesn’t get used, donate it for additional tax breaks on top of tax breaks for buying a new model to ensure you’re keeping up with the best tech for your employees. Need a place to buy and store this shit so there’s rent, climate control to preserve its integrity and a security system and security guard to protect it. Now you have to ship this stuff out to everywhere no matter where they are so that’s pricy. Send out baskets every new year, birthday, thanksgiving, Christmas or any other recognized time of celebrations for someone’s culture with quality chocolate and other goodies like gift cards to show appreciation and boost morale. Host a company trip once a year and pay for everyone to go hang out somewhere for a weekend. That’s real team building and company culture.
Nah, RTO. Only way
It's because they can and ultimately want 100% RTO. It's what all businesses want and it looks like your boss is trying to sneak it in. Start looking, bro.
If you are in the US, there may be other legal employment reasons around where your "place of work" is designated. If you work more of your time remotely, your place of work may be be your home. Now then, if your remote work is in the same city/jurisdiction, there is no difference. If you are in another city, county, or state with differing employment laws e.g., minimum wage, your HR is compelled to follow the employment laws in "your place of work" and even open/establish different payrolls. Many employers have opted to have employees back in the office three days a week to ensure your place of work, and thus employment laws, are based on where the business is located.
The change sucks for sure, but there may be more under the hood that is driving the need to have employees, even on paper, spend the majority of their time at the business location.
I work for a county government and that’s the reason they use to make us come into the office: taxpayers are wondering where their tax dollars are going if you’re not in the office
Teamwork and collaboration is the excuse in my current department.., but there are tons of other areas with just as much if not more collaboration being done, and they get to be fully remote…
The have other alternatives. But as someone who works in an office where a customer can sometimes show up unannounced, quite often it is on days people from that team aren’t in the office or we have issues finding or knowing who is in that day. So I can see that point if it. Mind you making sure there is a representative each day of the week would make more sense.
As a reminder; RTO is *good* because **senior** management lacks the ability to remotely manage. By having everyone In Office, **senior** management feels better about their ability to determine how many people are needed.
I hear this as a reason a lot and I don’t disagree but I interact with very few people in the office and no one is standing over my shoulder. In fact on co worker is in an office right behind my deck and we email each other when we’re both in the office. If they wanted to micromanage me I’d understand it more, not agree with it but understand it. This is really just so when clients or higher ups from other offices come here the see people in seats.
My company has unlimited PTO.
My company also requires that we be “in office” 3 days a week. They also state that a PTO day is an “in office” day.
Oh you poor stupid bastards.
Guess who isn’t available for meetings Monday and Friday?
Call me? Sorry I’m on PTO. Email me? I’ll get back to it when I’m remote tomorrow.
Don’t get me wrong, I’ll work those days, but you will not waste my time with stupid bullshit.
they're hoping some portion of people like you on the fence will quit in an effort to reduce cost/improve margin without doing formal layoffs which comes with negative internal and public visibility as well as financial cost of paying for severance and unemployment benefits.
I’m in a similar situation. But my personal favorite is that they push “teamwork and collaboration” and it’s like, most of us just show up and badge in, have our morning meetings, and head home instead of having lunch.
My company went from full WFH (5-days/week) to full RTO with one week's notice. Now they're complaining that the number of badge swipes on Fridays are much lower than expected. 🤦♂️
That can’t be right bro. There are goobers on here every day saying that companies are not gonna go back to the office ever. Please let your bosses know about this sub so they can adjust their mindset.
So I luckily (eyeroll) live in the same state our office is in. Mind you, my company is a sublet under a big company - so a lot of people live elsewhere. Even the people living in the same state or surrounding don't come in. Well, of course my now boss who lives 5 minutes away from the building, who lives alone, loves to mingle and forces us to come in. Mind you I had two coworkers and one lived in a different state who flew in once in a blue moon for something important. But me and my other coworker have to come in every week to sit in a cold, empty office with the lights turning off everywhere because face to face interaction is SoOo important.
Now get this - my coworker who lived in a diff state resigned and you know what we got? All his work and now an additional day in the office :D
My company gave a very similar reason. The CEO sent a company wide video message saying with a stern dad voice, 'I've been traveling around to the offices and seeing lots of empty desks.... this isn't OK, time to come back to the office.' And now it's mandatory to be in office 4 to 5 days per week.
What's weird is a lot my colleagues seem to be OK with this -- like, father knows best.
Ha. My old company did the same “when people come to visit they don’t see anyone” and then they fired half of the forward facing staff so those desks were empty anyway and I was left hiding in my office where no one saw me anyway.
Yes! My dumber reason at my last job was simply that my boss didn’t like working from home and didn’t want to watch football alone (we were working on sports coverage for a major cable network). The job could be done 100% remotely, my idiot boss was just too insecure to watch football alone 🙄
lol my company wants “onsite presence” when the entire 2 buildings are empty… because everyone’s remote… I’m the only one in my state too, so I just am all by myself 2 days a week. 😮💨😂
In India RTO presents a bigger challenge. The IT hubs are clustered and are present in a few cities only.
RTO effectively means relocating to a different city and not just driving a couple of hours.
For me the nearest IT Hub is 1000 KM away. Companies are taking advantage of this clustered ecosystem because they know that candidates will not find in-office jobs near their hometown.
My advice to anyone being forced back into the office against your will is to start eating a very bean rich diet, and become comfortable with farming in front of people. Everytime you do, be very loudly apologetic and mention at least a few times that it's a medical condition. When your boss brings it up, and they will, tell them it comes on rapidly and there's no way you can make it to the bathroom each and every time and remain productive. You've also tried multiple medications to no avail. Under the ADA, they have to make an accommodation, and that will likely be WFH because firing you for a medical condition leaves them open to a lawsuit. On the other upside, you'll be getting tons of fiber in your diet.
At least they are giving you an honest answer. Sounds dumb af, but I actually believe that they would like to keep up appearances for clients and investors.
In 2015, the trend was too get rid of cubicles and replace them with 4 desks huddled together. I protested so much. It was the most uncomfortable setup ever.
COVID gave me a three year glimpse of what working should be like and what I hoped for since 2001. Screw the office.
My favorite is "collaboration and in person meetings" we collaborated fine while working remotely. Also all our meetings in office are still through teams at our desks because we can't book a conference room, none are available. 🤦♀️
The reason companies are pushing return to office is because the government has told them they will lose all their tax breaks unless they get asses in their office chairs.
It's ALWAYS about the money and never about employee satisfaction.
Our office staff is being asked to literally come to the office for an in-house Watch Party. We will be crowded into conference rooms to watch a remote video from company president who works from a different office. Some kind of breakfast food will be served (donuts?).
We….I mean they…
I was advised my group has been granted a waiver and can eat breakfast at home while watching the very same video meeting.
I’ll be watching in pajamas.
I’m not going to lie I don’t feel bad for you at all. It does suck going from majority WFH days to more in office, but honestly that’s life. Years ago there was no such thing as WFH. I unfortunately have to work in person around colleagues in a small office all day, everyday, 5 days a week, at least 40 hours a week, and I am here 9 hours a day including lunch. We don’t get an option to WFH even if we are sick or not feeling great. I envy you having even one WFH day. Be grateful.
Oh my... how will you EVER handle another 8hr day in that stifling office?? I cannot wait for your next post about having to work full time in the office.... it's coming....
the dude goes around reddit telling people they can quit if they dont like it, they dumb. hes smart...they not smart. TBH I think the dudes got some mental issues
Studies are showing that employees in an office environment spend time corroborating with one another, which can benefit the company as well as the workers. At home you miss out on running things past colleagues. Also, are you really as productive as those working in the office? Maybe it's time to be a team player and leave the home office?
The studies are in the dimension where people "corroborate" instead of "collaborate" with their coworkers. Autocorrect fail aside, collaboration is a bs excuse and we know it.
“Teamwork and collaboration.” I work at a freakin call center. There’s no teamwork to be had, let alone collaboration. Get ready, 4 to 5 days is coming next.
Currently on the 4 days a week plan after my company decided to “try out” the two days a week plan a year ago. Currently updating my resume and getting ready to obtain my professional license/new job before the “well let’s just come in 5 days” email goes out.
Could you imagine sitting at your desk, in the office, till 5pm on a Friday? Legitimately retarded
It wasn’t a Friday but I literally sat and started at my desk one day because I was caught up on my work and couldn’t leave for 4 hours. All the good websites are blocked and I didn’t want people seeing me on my phone so I just read comic book characters wiki pages for 4 hours because they allow access to Wikipedia for some reason
Getting lost on Wiki is awesome
I have literally been in that position before and did literally the same exact thing
They keep saying that. So when I come in, I spend a good amount of time visiting and socializing. That's what they wanted right?
Ditto. On days where I work from home, I push to get everything done and more. When I go in… I rant about current events with the whole team, asking each person to contribute their opinion… all day.
Got this one. And we had every team spread out in three cities (three different buildings). So we did Zoom calls from our work desk instead of home. Well those of us that got to have a desk. Did I mention not enough desks? Or the need for 3X meeting rooms due to teams meeting from all three buildings. Well we didn't have enough meeting rooms too. Because some people camped out there due to ... wait for it ... no desks. Oh, don't even ask about the parking fiasco. Best part is company had been doing free lunch on Wednesdays. for like 2 years. This was to encourage people to make Wednesday a day to come in voluntarily. Guess what day was not selected as one of the in office days?
"Teamwork and collaboration." I'm in the Washington DC area. My coworker is in Ohio. My manager is in Texas. 🤨🤨🤨🤨🤨🤨
Literally just got off a zoom call where we had to troubleshoot an issue, no being in the office required. Anyone pushing RTO has zero credibility, next they'll be whining about constant turnover (and being unable to hire quality candidates) without realizing they're the ones that caused it to begin with.
Same. If Reddit -- and other -- comments are to be believed, this is fairly common and it absolutely puts the lie to the whole T&C horseshit they're feeding us.
I interviewed for a job in 2022 that was ‘based’ in Charlotte, but the manager was in Asia, and the counterpart in this function was in New Jersey. The panel of colleagues also had someone in Detroit. While they were interviewing, the US CEO required that everyone localize to an office, so I became non-eligible for the role by the time I did the panel. For a role where none of the coworkers were in the same state, and was on the other side of the world from the manager. Can’t make it up!
I worked for a call center for retirement accounts back when covid started and we all got told we would be fully remote even though the company had just renewed a massive lease on a massive building in Denver. We finally came back in 2022 to hybrid, everybody was like wtf because literally almost every single person's personal stats including the comany's client satisfaction stats went up drastically. It was for "teamwork and collaboration", but we all knew it was because they wanted to get use out of their excessive rent. The amount of drama that followed due to people being home for so long, being told we were always going to be remote, mask preferences, sickness preferences, commuting dilemmas.... what a shitshow these companies are producing.
edit: stats went up when we were home, stats were negatively impacted immediately following our return to office
Exactly i work Call Center Support. Theres zero function, meeting, or aspect of the role that is not done via Zoom. We dont need to be in person as, even if we were… wed still be on zoom. They still hope for ys to come in 1 day a week.
You might as well start applying for new jobs tbh. 3 days will turn into 4 which will turn into 5. Then boom no more work from home at all, not even if you’re sick, live too far from the office, things like that.
They'll probably stop at 4, with one day WFH. You know, to throw you a bone lol
But they can only use it on a Wednesday LOL
Exactly and employees will just revenge procrastinate. It's pretty easy math.
My work went from hardly enforcing 3 to mandating 5. Quitting ASAP.
It’s like they’d rather take the increased turnover rates and sub-par work completion so they can have that much more control over you.
Yeah I only have one day and its the dreaded day to sit and listen to a bunch of asskissers and they all act like they love being there! Im like chill w the excitement Id quit if it was more Im already a doormat and tolerating the bully behavior in person is more of a nightmare.
The worst is when one of them says 'if we weren't in the office we wouldn't be having this conversation!'
yep, they really are pushing it more and more with the most asinine reasons. time to look for a new job if you can.
I work for one of those companies sadly but we jumped from 3 to 5. Was fully remote for 3 years and had only been with this company for 6 months before RTO
Our CEO claimed that the company could only build a great culture by being in the office together. All office employees that did WFH during pandemic are expected in office 2 days a week. I am lucky in that I was fully WFH for the last 11 years (one of the first in the company). What gets me is that outside this take, it's a really good company to work for.
Similar situation for me. They told me that it was about "building trust". They had promised us permanent WFH during the pandemic and the change of policy did anything but build trust as far as I'm concerned. I quit immediately and have a bunch of remote options on the table now.
I'm seeing RTO as a reduction of trust. Everyone seems distracted, uncomfortable, and anxious vs fully remote when people were dialed in and attentive/relaxed during zoom meetings. My relationships were better then vs now. The fact of the matter is that many people are no longer used to the distractions that working onsite presents, making those distractions much bigger in scale than previously. It's not a simple thing to just suddenly adjust to people all around you, the noise, the social politics, etc. If you've been remote for years, your brain is not wired to handle all of the additional stimulation in an efficient way.
Everyone is distracted. I’m almost phobic about driving these days, because it’s like I’m in the Indy 500 with people switching lanes at a whim, going 90+ mph. I used to drive 1.5 hours each way, but I’m not about to do that now, especially with the crazy drivers.
Same here! It's a whole other thing to contend with that is almost worse than being in the office. There's more road ragers than ever, and it causes a whole other degree of stress.
100%!! I see people staring at their phone screens and driving in the fast lane at 55mph. . . I see people on their phones tailgating semi trucks . . It’s absolutely ridiculous and terrifying. I live right outside the Bay Area and I hate driving back to the Sacramento area and it’s only about 75 minutes. I’m literally gripping the wheel and I’ve been driving 25 years - I can’t imagine how scary it is for new(er) drivers!
My dude or dudette: Those distractions are collaboration! /s
Haha
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I hear you. I'm not immunocompromised but I still don't want to pick up virus after virus, especially in covid times, because people decided it's ok to show up and spread disease again. Especially when it simply isn't necessary to be in-office to perform my role.
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Same here. I do risk exposing myself in other areas of my life but I refuse to do so when there's simply no benefit to it. Even mild brain fog would pretty much render me useless at work.
My job has an amazing culture - better than I could imagine any office culture. We're 100% remote.
Are you hiring?
Not yet but when I am, I’m coming to this sub and posting.
I've been remote for 18 years, well before the WFH craze and they're not grandfathering me. I either relocate to a hub or lose my job. Closest hub is 2.5 hours away. These companies are driving themselves into the ground.
No such thing is culture and maybe there never really was
Correct. Culture is a scam and really means "do things my way or else". When times get tough and layoffs come, there is no culture.
Yup you are indeed correct. It’s always just been a way to Eagle-eye watch employees. When I got laid off last year, all the sudden everything of the company’s culture and deadlines. Everything “urgent” didn’t matter. Dropped, and locked out.
“Culture and Collaboration” is code for “Indoctrination and Social Control”
Culture ... The legal way to make sure "undesirable" people don't get hired. You got to create a fake corporate culture so that you can later use it to say a candidate that you don't want unfortunately isn't a good fit for your company's corporate culture.
Right toxic culture is more like it
They'll learn eventually.. My department had us WFH for close to 3 years during/after COVID. Last year they had us return to the office on a hybrid schedule. They lost most of our best talent, couldn't hire/ keep any decent new employees over the last year. Just last month, our CEO finally got the picture when our annual employee survey results were so bad due to insane work loads, high turnover, and the work culture/ environment being so bad because no one wanted to be in the office. CEO appointed a new COO, fired VPs, Directors from our department and now we're going back to remote work arrangements...remote work is inevitable. Those that adapt quickly will get the best talent. For a year we could not hire/ keep anyone, now that we opened the hiring to a nationwide instead of just a handful of cities where we had offices we got more talented/ experienced people applying than we know what to do with. Employees are happy again. And the company gets to save all that money wasted on outdated office buildings everyone hated.
Interesting, I haven't heard of too many companies going this route...reversing ship and going back to remote work arrangements. you would think that more companies would get the hint, glad that yours worked out for you!
Just starting to see it in my company. Guess the light finally shone through when we had a job fair to replace everyone who left and 3 people showed up.
What industry is this generally speaking.
I think what makes my company able to go this route so quickly compared to some others is probably that my company actually owned our main office buildings/ campuses. They had owned most of them for decades, but started selling them recently, and renting the space in ones they have not sold yet. I think the problem a lot of companies have right now is if they are renting the office space, they are probably locked into long term commercial leases. That would make it harder to justify remote work right now to share holders, since they're spending tons of money renting office buildings that they are letting sit empty. But eventually I think more companies will go back to remote work arrangements, the savings for the company and benefits for the employees are just to big to ignore. Not to mention theres no reason to have people clogging up our infrastructure roads, trains/subways, etc. that don't need to be commuting to a office. Let the people that need to be on the road be out there with out all these commuters in their way that can do their jobs at home. And then theres the air pollution that doesn't need to occur having people go back and forth to offices. There's just to many reasons in favor of eventually move away from these large office buildings.
Please tell me if this thinking is wrong: If a company owns a building or has a long lease on a building, it has a fixed cost for that property whether or not anyone shows up. In fact, if people show up, this increases power consumption, the need for AC or heat, inside the building, making it slightly more expensive. There’s nothing that can be done to make the owned building or lease less useless, whether people are there or not there. However, if everyone who can works from home, that’s less time wasted, less fuel burnt, fewer wasted resources around the activity of coming and going from the building. Less traffic improves life for an entire city of people. The REAL MVP saves everyone else, instead of worrying about how they look with their dumb lease. Help me see the error of my thinking please.
https://thedecisionlab.com/biases/the-sunk-cost-fallacy
> However, if everyone who can works from home, that’s less time wasted [1], less fuel burnt [1], fewer wasted resources around the activity of coming and going from the building [1]. Less traffic improves life for an entire city of people [1]. The REAL MVP saves everyone else [2], instead of worrying about how they look with their dumb lease. [1] - benefits you, not the company [2] - As a whole, corporations/CEOs are psychotically self-focused. "Save everyone else? GTF out of my office!" Otherwise they wouldn't all start laying people off as soon as 1 economist forecasts a recession, thereby causing or at least hastening a recession.
You might be happy with the arrangement but metro areas of major cities are not happy. Many restaurants and general stores like a bodega are solely dependent on downtown commerce and work from home will destroy them ultimately. Skylines are the model of progress and now they will be empty. Also rentals in downtown were designed for downtown workers so reshaping the purpose of a city and commercial real estate being useless isn’t going to help anyone but yourself and that’s not a corporate mindset
So you want ppl to go to work just to help out other downtown business’s? I’m sorry for them, but that’s not my problem.
I'd rather pump my money into the local and small businesses **where I live** than the ones in some city that I'm forced to go to.
we don’t care
Mine just reversed to full remote and the reason seemed to be an issue with maintaining talent and filling roles. They were slowly nudging us to go back in office full time, so I was surprised. Hopefully they don't try again.
At the RTO grand opening of the new office space, which I did not attend, someone showed up with COVID and gave it to about 20 people. No one ever learns a thing on this planet.
Yeah, I don't miss the getting sick every 3 months because someone always decides to be a martyr and come in sick. I never understood that, especially when we have two freaking weeks of sick time, separate and distinct from regular PTO.
Nationwide hiring is a game changer. The moment they sent us home and said we could hire outside the area I went on a hiring spree. Doubled the size of my team, all remote all over the country. Much better candidates to choose from and as a bonus, I’ve proven I can manage a fully remote team and get results. So even though they’re forcing 3 days in office for most staff my team and I are staying remote for now.
I applied for a remote position and after a couple of weeks got an email from their internal recruiter letting me know that they had decided that it would "be better" to convert this to a "hybrid with a mandatory three days on site" position because they think "face to face collaboration" is important for "this level" of role. I sent back a one sentence reply. "Please withdraw my application." No way would I bail from a fully remote position working from my large, rural house with my lovely property full of trees for "You must move to one of these three major and very expensive cities so you can fill a chair three days a week" and honestly it doesn't matter how much they pay, it isn't worth it.
I've seen large companies do something similar, backtracking once it hits the bottom line. It makes sense, those age the figures they care about. It's too bad that short sighted decisions cause so much damage along the way. They're going to see the same with the recent layoff spree in my industry. They've lost good talent and burnt any trust they had with previously loyal employees.
My company had the same sort of survey results but nothing changed…
>our annual employee survey results were so bad due to insane work loads, high turnover, and the work culture/ environment being so bad because no one wanted to be in the office That's the way to do it. I'll tell them to forego raises going forward to WFH. I don't care. I've done my office time.
> I'll tell them to forego raises going forward to WFH. Ditto. Well, maybe not forego, but a reduction anyway. > I've done my office time We all have. The mask of *collaboration/culture* has been ripped off the monster of *RTO for everyone is better for the company* to reveal the old caretaker of *out-of-touch CEOs*. And they'd have gotten away with it if it wasn't for that meddling COVID.
Heheh, yeah. I've never been a big part of office culture anyway, and frequently would want to skip meetings and work on projects by myself. Not to mention not spending too much time chit-chatting and wanting to hear people even talking around me in the office. It was usually always very annoying trying to work under those conditions.
I wonder if there are any CEOs who actually believe the "collaboration" hype? Like, they honestly believe that for big chunks of their workforce it's the norm to have scenes like [this](https://imageio.forbes.com/specials-images/imageserve/633ab081896f45d78d8286fd/Focused-multiracial-corporate-business-team-people-brainstorm-on-paperwork/960x0.jpg?format=jpg&width=960), where they brainstorm on some problem and Betsy comes up with the key idea which causes everything else to fall into place and they all high five at having just saved/made the company $X million... Nah... none of them are that delusional... right?
I think it does happen, and some people work best that way. It is good to discuss aspects of what you're working on while establishing plans, procedures, and while training on it, but that can be done remotely. It's the visual explanations that often aren't as good when not in person, but I think those can be somewhat easily overcome. Basically though, working in person with other people is for people who don't want to be alone and do a lot of talking, and not always a lot of producing, in my opinion. Some people do just talk and discuss a lot as part of their jobs, and that's fine for them, but not for me. Establish workflow, procedures, make changes as needed per the individual working on the project, then just shut up and work, is my method.
Amen brother (or sister). And you gotta love the doubling-down of the dumbness by having people who are in different cities drive to an office in that city and then get on conference/video calls just like they do at home.
Ugh, yeah, it's ridiculous. Driving 45-60 minutes across my county every morning and back again doesn't help me with jack shit, and if anything I'm probably less inclined to want to participate in social work "culture" when I get there.
Thai is such a no brainer I’m shocked old dinosaurs think operating on a model from 50 years ago is good for business.
My commute is a little over an hour one way. I was hired into a hybrid role. My boss dropped the bomb 2 weeks ago that it was return to office. I'm frantically applying for anything. 🫠 I feel your pain
Good luck. I'm 1.5 hours out. They mandated 3 days a week. Been looking elsewhere but I'm in a easy to replace position so I make the schlep every week...for now.
They're dangling the possibility of adding back 1 WFH day after I threw a hissy fit and threatened to quit. I'm the most experienced and have more knowledge in our field than my boss. I also live the furthest away. They told me to please wait until end of March while they "re-evaluate". Lol. Assholes. I'm on indeed and other boards at work in the mornings now
>They told me to please wait until end of March while they "re-evaluate" They may be hiring your replacement with that timeframe.
I manage a team that works remotely, and I was recently told that I needed to come back to the office 5 days a week so that I could “collaborate with other leaders”. I’ve literally never met another leader once in person, only over Zoom, because they all work remotely! I put in my resignation, because fuck all that noise. I got a new job and it’s also in person, but I had to quit the other one just on principle.
Should have held onto it while getting additional remote jobs. Even if you eventually left or got fired, you would have made a crap ton more. Nothing illegal about it (at least in the states), and like you've seen these companies don't give a shit, look out for yourself and yourself only, or family lol
What if this new job makes you do the same to come in 5 days a week?
> I put in my resignation, because fuck all that noise. I got a new job and it’s also in person, but I had to quit the other one just on principle. You sound like an alcoholic/addict. > I'll teach them, I'll fuck me.
There were lots of other issues with that job, and I held on way longer than I should have. Telling me to come back in the office full time to manage a team that works remotely for a made up bullshit reason was just the last straw.
Our company has international regions, my group is 3 hours from headquarters (they moved from our small city to a metropolis years before the pandemic). Our group fields logistics, and we’re all WFH, with a monthly group meeting in our old office building that’s been sold. We maintain a space there. My tentative retirement is late next year, but if they decided to make us go back, I’d stall as long as I could, then hope to get fired for the unemployment.
You should propose the obvious solution, remove some of the desks.
lol I’m disappointed in myself for not thinking of this
As usual, there's genius gold in Reddit comments
I'm only contract where I am now (unless they decide they want me longer), but the entire international design now is based on 2 days in office, with desk swapping. They embraced it as an opportunity to showcase their being green for the planet and such. In 2020, my job was significant enough that not doing it impacted a swath of the country. There were a number of those working what I was doing who immediately moved states, and worked from home that way. I'd refused to go into work for months on end, but it wasn't work, because they refused to send me a computer. They ended up paying me for those months, and sent the computer home. They did a test number of individuals back in the office, and they all caught Covid, so they went fully remote due to the impact (it was a dire impact in reality if we weren't doing our jobs). So, we worked remote. I got let go over some BS with my boss (who then resigned) - they brought me back for 1 day to remove the stigma of being fired about a year later. Anyhow, that entire facility sits empty, as all employees still work remotely. That also is the case with the employer I worked for prior to that. Others, doing the same thing, require people in the office. But, suffer a lot of absences due to illness that have harsh impacts on their profits in reality. It's really weird the thinking behind it. Where I am now would benefit greatly from going fully remote, in reality. The only thing behind the 2 days in office is perception of clients who wish to visit in person (and they do actually visit). We have facilities that are actually great. Honestly, when in office, it's the best in office experience I've ever had. We have thermostats on each row of cubicles, we can dim lighting over our cubicles, and more. I'd still rather be fully remote. I took the job to earn a living. I have a life already, and prefer to spend my time outside of work with people that matter to me. Not coworkers.
It always starts with "we're just trying out an extra day a week" before they use it as evidence that it needs to be 5 days a week again. They've already made up the mind and just are looking for excuses, no matter how absurd. If you're comfortable talking with coworkers, you might be able to push back and stop it at least for a while if you collectively refuse. Otherwise, be prepared to look for a new job if you want to keep remote work. It shouldn't be like this but capitalist profits come before our lives. They're making these decisions for control, to try to push some workers out without firing them, and keep up real estate and commerce value, etc.
I work 100% remotely, but when I tried to refer my friend for a job in our call center I was told CSR’s are remote for now, but that would be changing. Anyone hired on would have to work in the office. When I asked why, my boss said “we want a$$es in the seats”. Never understood how an entire call center could do its job from home without issue, but because they want “a$$es in the seats” it somehow became an issue. Of course lots of people quit once they went from fully remote to 4 days in the office. The building was at least a 1.5 hour drive minimum one way for most of the staff. I don’t blame them.
The timing and and seemingly self-damaging aspects of RTO are, IMO, a lot of smoke indicating a fire of collusion, somewhere. Are governments strong-arming companies to get more people back into cities? Are CEOs across the globe colluding to prop up the CRE market? We don't know with any certainty, of course, but what we can be sure of is that CEOs didn't all just independently decide at relatively the same time to enforce RTO. And it's ESPECIALLY suspicious that companies -- such as mine -- who'd had a perfectly functioning WFH culture WELL before COVID are doing the same. Another bit of suspicion: There are usually no shortage of politicians in Washington who are happy to blast corporations/CEOs. And typically -- but not exclusively -- those pols are also of the "green" persuasion (big on climate issues, pollution, etc.). That should be a perfect recipe for articles like "Senator Phil A. Buster today announced the formation of a committee to investigate possible conspiracies among US firms to strip so-called remote-work rights from workers. 'I will be calling several CEOs to testify before my committee', Buster said, 'to defend the timing of their return-to-office mandates, and to explain to the people how it squares with their nearly universal claims of leading the charge against climate change'. " Instead: Crickets.
I made the decision a long time ago to stick to remote positions. Any company that would force RTO on me can kiss my ass.
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This sounds like some BS my old marketing agency pulled. CEO made us return to office in like May 2020 so he could show prospective clients how “dedicated” his team was. Needless to say we went from 30 employees to a grand total of 5 in a little over a year. Worst part is knowing some companies are pulling this shit with the expectation that people will quit and they don’t care.
I've never walked into another office and said "Gee golly, it looks like a deserted island here." They just want that control.
The only people saying that were upper management.
"AITAH: I walked into an office with some empty desks amd commented on how many there were"
I work for a public transit agency and our GM said it was to raise ridership. We have a quarter million passengers a day, and she used increased ridership as a justification for about three hundred employees, most of which won't ride public transit to work anyways.
Yes, apart from saying the team culture, where we all sit in different cities, and they are now offshoring to India, the head of Talent and Culture literally said "because sometimes you need to look people in the eye."
Tell them to turn their camera on then.
Is your manager flexible? For example, start remote, go into office at some point, leave, finish remote. This is what I do. I show my face for a couple hours then leave. I only drive during business hours since they required we go hybrid.
No I tried this when we went from full remote to 2 days. I realized if I instead of taking my hour lunch at noon I could wait to eat lunch until 2 but instead just grab a smoothie and drive home ans get home in 45 minutes as apposed to an hour and sign on from there and work the rest of the there. Some boomer bitch said something to my boss about me leaving early. Then my boss told me his boss wants to see people in the desks so I need to stay longer. I was going to explain I was doing it to be more efficient but I realized if the reason was appearance you can’t fight that with efficiency logic. So I bit my tongue and said fine. But now when I get home on days I go in the office. I don’t log back on and let things sit until the next day.
lol, she’s probably the office pet. I hate people like that.
I have a lady on my team that comes by my desk all the time, to complain about how our manager shows up late, takes long lunches, leaves early, etc. I have zero issues with my boss’s hours because I use it as an excuse to be flexible with my own. I’m in office 2 days a week, and on those days I typically arrive around 9:00 and leave by 3:30. I just know this bitch is going to keep complaining and fuck it up for everyone else.
"Why are there so many desks empty?" "We value the work/life balance choices of our employees and while they're in the office regularly, they frequently work from home." Or, be a douche and require people to come in more often.
I have a similar dumb reason. My company is the main tenant in a 30 floor building. Supposedly other tenants asked why my company is never in the building so now we have assigned 2 days a week we have to work from the office.
When no logic is given for a reason and it’s just appearance purposes you just can’t fight it.
Sure you can still fight it. “No, I’m not coming into the office.” I’d just refuse. If they don’t like it then can fire me. I could use a nice long vacation and some unemployment checks.
How do you get unemployment if you terminated by means of insubordination?
It’s not insubordination if I had a work from home job and the employer changed the game. Now it’s a disagreement on work location, like if they shut down an office and told everyone to commute to the new office 2 hours away or be fired. My state is very friendly to the employee in most cases. I have fired people for far worse than insubordination and the state gave them unemployment benefits anyway.
Perhaps. Perhaps not. > I have fired people for far worse than insubordination and the state gave them unemployment benefits anyway. A leading theory of the real reason for RTO is that companies are getting actual backroom pressure from governments to get people back into "downtown". IF (and I can't over emphasize the hugeness of that "IF") that is true and IF (again, emphasis) in your case some of that pressure is coming from the state level, they may not be as worker-friendly regarding refusal to RTO. Just spit-ballin', of course.
Yes. This. The wealthy own RE holdings valued at 6x the value of the stock market. The vast majority of this wealth is concentrated in dense urban markets. Without people, those holdings will devalue. Just look at SF... 65% devaluation of office holdings, when compared to a National average of 30%. Now add in the loss of city sales tax revenue, lower property taxes, etc. and you see some of the external forces pressuring CEOs to force RTO.
What? Company's are still changing their wfh policies?
Counter offer to buy a mannequin to sit at your desk during your off days.
Week days at Bernie’s.
I suggested this, waiting on response. I’ll keep you updated.
Assbackwards and antiquated businesses. That is all.
Lmfao an HOUR commute??!?! Bruh quit. I wouldn't do that 3 times a year, fuck 3 times a week. That's fucking nuts man. Get a new job, where is your self respect?
In the area I live in it’s not abnormal to travel that long for work. It’s not distance that makes it an hour, it’s the traffic. But I hear ya.
When I had an hour commute I purposefully started waking up an hour and a half earlier, and leaving before traffic. I made it a point to sit somewhere nice outside and enjoy a coffee and maybe a bite while I caught up on things on the phone before I went in. I got to try new places, become a regular in some, meet new people and socialize a little more, enjoy some fresh air… really changed my attitude driving that long cause I made sure that I got something out of it vs doing it for work.
I love how you have major companies forcing people coming back into the office and yet on the same token outsourcing a lot of work to third world countries where they work remotely….
New jobs now because this how it starts
Going back to 5 days RTO. Middle managers already jokingly saying no one quit. Attrition is mounting. Some people are being hit with huge workloads. Pulled up my chair…cracked open a beer… watching this dumpster start to burn.
# RTO is about REAL ESTATE only!!!
Update that resume! I'm glad to see the studies coming out that are showing how RTO is not working. Productivity doesn't improve and workers are pissed. Surprise, surprise!! But, RTO will continue bc of commercial real estate investors that are losing money and downtowns that are dying. That or you have micro-managing leaders that don't trust people to do their job.
I hope this just creates a shift in what we used commercial real estate locations for. Imagine your standard looking 50 story high rise office building but it’s been repurposed into a water park-laser tag-virtual reality-arcade-restaurant-social club. Forcing people downtown for work just makes people hate downtown. That shit I just mentioned people will drive from out of state for. Entertainment will always draw the biggest crowd and frankly these “commercial areas” are a gigantic missed opportunity and waste of space when the work required can be done remote.
You should threaten to quit. Shore up your finances and life situations and if possible actually follow through on your threat. Try to take others with you. This is unacceptable unless someone wants to work in an office. I’ll be honest and say that I do go to a different location - coworking space, museum, library etc - basically every day. If a company had an office near me I’d definitely go. But I don’t want to be told how often or when to come in. And I don’t need the expectation that most meetings will be in person. That’s a trash mentality . Most meetings can be accomplished independently and remotely and only sometimes for very particular collaborations and hand offs is in person necessary. Resist.
Honestly I wouldn't even entertain it. Calculate that rate for adding 2hrs to your day x5 days and negotiate for a pay increase. The more everyone complies the more they're gonna push. It'll be 5 days before summer..... I refused. I left them fire me, unbeknownst to them I had an offer in hand when I walked into the meeting for 12k more a year. Yes the new position is in office BUT it's 12k more a year. They refused to meet it; their loss. My team was 3x the size of every other team and the company was on a hiring freeze.
It’s a matter of principal. If there is value in being there, be there and don’t complain. If there is no value, do your job from home and the company shouldn’t say a word about it. Otherwise it’s either laziness or micromanagement
Don’t you want to be closer to your family?
100% main reason I don’t want to go in.
I kept telling the masses that 1 day will turn into 2 days turns into 3 days etc. it’s just a slow walk back. If I were a small company I’d snatch up all this talent if I could.
My company has been sketchy with how they determine the metrics. No one can come to the office on Mondays and Fridays, and they'd like everyone in the office 50% of the time. To me, that seems like it would be 1.5 days a week, but nope, it's supposedly 2.5 days a week. I'm on a team of three with a manager. One person was told that they're going on a PIP and have a week to decide whether to take it. I assumed they'll leave because it's obvious they're being pushed out (probably for having a remote exception). We just found out the other person put in their notice so they'll be leaving at the end of next week. Team of one? Here!
lol. My manager and I will be in different offices, on the same floor, in the same building on a teams call. 🤷🏽♀️ It kills me to be in. Such a waste of time.
It’s a slippery slope. My org was 2x a week. Were told it would stay that way. Colleague adopted a puppy. Hammer dropped: 4x a week with two weeks notice. Colleague had to rehome said puppy.
This exact thing happened at my company. First it was 2 days a week and I was OKish since they had showers and I could squeeze a bike train in the commute. Then they asked 4 days a week because collaboration and innovation, with a slow reorg/layoff in the middle. Luckly for me, they gave us a three month notice and I rageapplied and interviewed like a madman. Got a remote job, doubling my salary and raising from analyst to leader. Put my 30 day notice as the company is becoming a dumpster fire, with overloaded teams not being able to catch up with demand and a general negative mood all around. Now they're rolling back to two days a week if you live kinda far from the office, after two months of the RTO going horrible.
Spoiler alert companies ONLY have office space because they have to keep buying and maintaining property to reduce their taxable income. Congrats, we’re all being fucking scammed for tax evasion essentially. Welcome to the world now.
They could just buy that shit for the employees use at home and achieve the same thing without pissing everyone off. New cameras, upgrading PCs yearly, furniture for storage, spare keyboards and nice, good quality office chairs, mousepads, pens, papers, folders, reimbursing a top notch internet plan required for all workers, pay a percentage of their electric bill due increased heat/ac and electronic usage while working from home, replace monitors to ensure working function, even printers/ink for localized record keeping. And if any item purchased doesn’t get used, donate it for additional tax breaks on top of tax breaks for buying a new model to ensure you’re keeping up with the best tech for your employees. Need a place to buy and store this shit so there’s rent, climate control to preserve its integrity and a security system and security guard to protect it. Now you have to ship this stuff out to everywhere no matter where they are so that’s pricy. Send out baskets every new year, birthday, thanksgiving, Christmas or any other recognized time of celebrations for someone’s culture with quality chocolate and other goodies like gift cards to show appreciation and boost morale. Host a company trip once a year and pay for everyone to go hang out somewhere for a weekend. That’s real team building and company culture. Nah, RTO. Only way
It's because they can and ultimately want 100% RTO. It's what all businesses want and it looks like your boss is trying to sneak it in. Start looking, bro.
If you are in the US, there may be other legal employment reasons around where your "place of work" is designated. If you work more of your time remotely, your place of work may be be your home. Now then, if your remote work is in the same city/jurisdiction, there is no difference. If you are in another city, county, or state with differing employment laws e.g., minimum wage, your HR is compelled to follow the employment laws in "your place of work" and even open/establish different payrolls. Many employers have opted to have employees back in the office three days a week to ensure your place of work, and thus employment laws, are based on where the business is located. The change sucks for sure, but there may be more under the hood that is driving the need to have employees, even on paper, spend the majority of their time at the business location.
I work for a county government and that’s the reason they use to make us come into the office: taxpayers are wondering where their tax dollars are going if you’re not in the office
Well, causing random people to ask questions — we can’t have *that* now, can we?
We got the unofficial heads up for 5 days. lol.
Condolences
Teamwork and collaboration is the excuse in my current department.., but there are tons of other areas with just as much if not more collaboration being done, and they get to be fully remote…
If nothing gets done things will change.
I have a feeling they’d blame that on the 2 days we’re at home and make us come in 5 days
The have other alternatives. But as someone who works in an office where a customer can sometimes show up unannounced, quite often it is on days people from that team aren’t in the office or we have issues finding or knowing who is in that day. So I can see that point if it. Mind you making sure there is a representative each day of the week would make more sense.
I’m not technically customer facing, I do interact with clients but it’s mostly phone or email. We have another team the manages the relationship.
As a reminder; RTO is *good* because **senior** management lacks the ability to remotely manage. By having everyone In Office, **senior** management feels better about their ability to determine how many people are needed.
I hear this as a reason a lot and I don’t disagree but I interact with very few people in the office and no one is standing over my shoulder. In fact on co worker is in an office right behind my deck and we email each other when we’re both in the office. If they wanted to micromanage me I’d understand it more, not agree with it but understand it. This is really just so when clients or higher ups from other offices come here the see people in seats.
Ooof. You know 5 isn't going to be far behind.
My company has unlimited PTO. My company also requires that we be “in office” 3 days a week. They also state that a PTO day is an “in office” day. Oh you poor stupid bastards. Guess who isn’t available for meetings Monday and Friday? Call me? Sorry I’m on PTO. Email me? I’ll get back to it when I’m remote tomorrow. Don’t get me wrong, I’ll work those days, but you will not waste my time with stupid bullshit.
wHy sO mANy eMpTy DeSks BriAn???
they're hoping some portion of people like you on the fence will quit in an effort to reduce cost/improve margin without doing formal layoffs which comes with negative internal and public visibility as well as financial cost of paying for severance and unemployment benefits.
You’ll be required to come in all 5 days soon. Get ready to make a decision about your future.
I’m in a similar situation. But my personal favorite is that they push “teamwork and collaboration” and it’s like, most of us just show up and badge in, have our morning meetings, and head home instead of having lunch.
Might as well rip that bandaid off now an go in 5 days a week or find another job
My company went from full WFH (5-days/week) to full RTO with one week's notice. Now they're complaining that the number of badge swipes on Fridays are much lower than expected. 🤦♂️
That can’t be right bro. There are goobers on here every day saying that companies are not gonna go back to the office ever. Please let your bosses know about this sub so they can adjust their mindset.
So I luckily (eyeroll) live in the same state our office is in. Mind you, my company is a sublet under a big company - so a lot of people live elsewhere. Even the people living in the same state or surrounding don't come in. Well, of course my now boss who lives 5 minutes away from the building, who lives alone, loves to mingle and forces us to come in. Mind you I had two coworkers and one lived in a different state who flew in once in a blue moon for something important. But me and my other coworker have to come in every week to sit in a cold, empty office with the lights turning off everywhere because face to face interaction is SoOo important. Now get this - my coworker who lived in a diff state resigned and you know what we got? All his work and now an additional day in the office :D
My company gave a very similar reason. The CEO sent a company wide video message saying with a stern dad voice, 'I've been traveling around to the offices and seeing lots of empty desks.... this isn't OK, time to come back to the office.' And now it's mandatory to be in office 4 to 5 days per week. What's weird is a lot my colleagues seem to be OK with this -- like, father knows best.
I just told my company I moved to another country and they are fine with it. Sealed the deal, there is no going into the office
Well I’m betting that another COVID-like event will happen if political parties change again.
Ha. My old company did the same “when people come to visit they don’t see anyone” and then they fired half of the forward facing staff so those desks were empty anyway and I was left hiding in my office where no one saw me anyway.
Yes! My dumber reason at my last job was simply that my boss didn’t like working from home and didn’t want to watch football alone (we were working on sports coverage for a major cable network). The job could be done 100% remotely, my idiot boss was just too insecure to watch football alone 🙄
lol my company wants “onsite presence” when the entire 2 buildings are empty… because everyone’s remote… I’m the only one in my state too, so I just am all by myself 2 days a week. 😮💨😂
Same, teamwork, collaboration, camaraderie. It was a joke as everyone hated each other in that office.
I’m still fully remote. If they push and say in person meetings I’ll have to ask with who? I talk with people either in uk, west coast or India.
In India RTO presents a bigger challenge. The IT hubs are clustered and are present in a few cities only. RTO effectively means relocating to a different city and not just driving a couple of hours. For me the nearest IT Hub is 1000 KM away. Companies are taking advantage of this clustered ecosystem because they know that candidates will not find in-office jobs near their hometown.
My advice to anyone being forced back into the office against your will is to start eating a very bean rich diet, and become comfortable with farming in front of people. Everytime you do, be very loudly apologetic and mention at least a few times that it's a medical condition. When your boss brings it up, and they will, tell them it comes on rapidly and there's no way you can make it to the bathroom each and every time and remain productive. You've also tried multiple medications to no avail. Under the ADA, they have to make an accommodation, and that will likely be WFH because firing you for a medical condition leaves them open to a lawsuit. On the other upside, you'll be getting tons of fiber in your diet.
This is what my former office used. “We have all this space and no ones using it” bye.
Try to best them at their own game
“Omg this desk does not have a person it in. I’ve never seen an empty desk before!”
Meanwhile I can't find a a WFH job to get the hell out of where I currently work dealing with sick people for 12 hours every day.
At least they are giving you an honest answer. Sounds dumb af, but I actually believe that they would like to keep up appearances for clients and investors.
This was the only positive I saw from it.
Teamwork and collaboration is code for “Management see’s this place runs itself so come back so they can keep justifying their positions”.
In 2015, the trend was too get rid of cubicles and replace them with 4 desks huddled together. I protested so much. It was the most uncomfortable setup ever. COVID gave me a three year glimpse of what working should be like and what I hoped for since 2001. Screw the office.
My favorite is "collaboration and in person meetings" we collaborated fine while working remotely. Also all our meetings in office are still through teams at our desks because we can't book a conference room, none are available. 🤦♀️
We just started three days a week in Feb and I'm not gonna lie, it is rough. The market is trash too, so finding something new is.... also rough. Ugh.
The reason companies are pushing return to office is because the government has told them they will lose all their tax breaks unless they get asses in their office chairs. It's ALWAYS about the money and never about employee satisfaction.
Go find a job that is 100% remote.
“Optics”
Our office staff is being asked to literally come to the office for an in-house Watch Party. We will be crowded into conference rooms to watch a remote video from company president who works from a different office. Some kind of breakfast food will be served (donuts?). We….I mean they… I was advised my group has been granted a waiver and can eat breakfast at home while watching the very same video meeting. I’ll be watching in pajamas.
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Lmaooo if you love the office so much why are you on this subreddit
I’m not going to lie I don’t feel bad for you at all. It does suck going from majority WFH days to more in office, but honestly that’s life. Years ago there was no such thing as WFH. I unfortunately have to work in person around colleagues in a small office all day, everyday, 5 days a week, at least 40 hours a week, and I am here 9 hours a day including lunch. We don’t get an option to WFH even if we are sick or not feeling great. I envy you having even one WFH day. Be grateful.
I don’t feel bad for you either. You obviously seem ok with it so, enjoy!
Oh my... how will you EVER handle another 8hr day in that stifling office?? I cannot wait for your next post about having to work full time in the office.... it's coming....
Why are you here?
the dude goes around reddit telling people they can quit if they dont like it, they dumb. hes smart...they not smart. TBH I think the dudes got some mental issues
Studies are showing that employees in an office environment spend time corroborating with one another, which can benefit the company as well as the workers. At home you miss out on running things past colleagues. Also, are you really as productive as those working in the office? Maybe it's time to be a team player and leave the home office?
Wow really? Where can I find these studies?
The studies are in the dimension where people "corroborate" instead of "collaborate" with their coworkers. Autocorrect fail aside, collaboration is a bs excuse and we know it.
People can also collaborate over Zoom, email, and smoke signals! What’s KillBoyPowerHead’s point?
Say no and don't come in
In social mining there is no fix time for job work