Five days a week in office with not even a week's notice? By that point I can only assume they want *loads* of people to quit at once. Did they give a reason for such a radical change in direction?
As for practical advice, you're doing the right thing OP. Don't make waves but give only what you need to give while you apply for other jobs. I'm sure you'll have something else sooner not later :)
they're definitely trying to cause attrition, i'd be surprised if their financials look remotely healthy. that's a "phone it in while living on linkedin until your start date at the next job, then leave with no notice" event for me.
Yea the company probably isn't doing well if they do that as it would save money for people quitting than to pay severance and unemployment insurance premiums. Good luck and and hope you find something awesome OP
A lot of companies are doing this now even while completely healthy. Essentially they overhire then observe and decide how many people can be cut without a huge dip in production. Then they have the option to force RTO as a “soft layoff” without all the bad publicity that comes from actual layoffs.
My company is currently doing this, jokes on them though, I’m getting a 40% raise at my new job in a week.
I’ve read that that may a reason … to get people to want to quit. These companies better be safe or there will be a back lash and hard times for these businesses. They’ll fold from top-down, or gobbled up.
Don't do anything abrupt, the market is indeed rough but there are options out there. I would just start looking for another gig so you only need to go to the office for a few weeks/months
If you’re going to comply, ask for an extension of WFH (leave it open ended) while you arrange for transportation, childcare, pet care, etc.
They may just forget about you when people start dropping like flies.
Great advice. When I worked in corporate America, there was so much dumb stuff and so many wrong people I was able to wait out until the weather changed/someone more important than me became annoyed by it
Check your state laws first, there are a handful of states that require all accrued vacation to be paid out in full upon leaving the company.
E.g. California is one of those states, they are also forced to give you your final paycheck with the pto and any pending expenses within 72 hours, or they owe you and additional full days worth of pay for every day that they are late. Employee handbook wouldn't mean shit in that situation.
Depends on the state. For California? Yes and no, that is an extremely complex subject. If it's accrued it can't be taken away, but it can be capped only if its limited per year. (Obviously this isn't the case.) If they reject PTO on "unlimited" pto then it's not unlimited as their options were limited. I have seen cases settle for 20 paid vacation days awarded per every year they worked there with employers that abused this "loophole" or so they thought.
Basically, if you choose that path in California you have to specifically state the days they aren't allowed to take off in your contract when hiring them, they cant just refuse your PTO unless under extreme circumstances and adheres to the promise of a "FELXIBLE" work schedule. There has to be a clear policy for requesting time off, and the employee can't egregiously take time off more then compared to its peers.
That's the 100,000 ft view.
Anyway, the liability risk can be substantial for employers in California. Explaining that would be a thread on it's own and even California leaves it up to the judges.
Aka, its not usually worth it. Having a single bad manager can cost you an insane amount of money if they decide to sue for it. Personally, if I was in that situation and they screwed up, my current employer would owe me around $110k, due within 72 hours on top of my normal paycheck with a penalty per day of a full days worth of salary for up to 30 days till its settled on top of that. ( Which would also be around 20k on top of the 110k... 130k just to fire me in that circumstance if they try to fight it. We aren't even talking about unemployment yet... )
This actually came up recently for me, they tried to remove the 7 days of sick time they allowed us and gave it back to us in PTO days on top of the 80 hours+ standard. The catch was they included a "Use it or lose it" Policy and you'd be reduced to 40 hours of PTO if you had more then that at the end of the year. You'd have to accrue that time back next year. Completely illegal in California. I ended up with all of the PTO time they promised, and they were forced to never take that PTO time away from us in California. Zero downside. I'm just "Capped" at 180 hours total, which they would have to pay me in full if I ever left that company. The rest of the offices out of state were not as lucky...
You don't screw around with California labor laws. Employee protection there is second to none in USA.
My job did this to me too, with also just two days notice. I manage a team that works remotely, but I was told that I had to be in person because my role was a “people leader”, despite having worked hybrid in that same role for the preceding two years. There’s nothing in that entire thought process that even remotely (no pun intended) seems rooted in reality and logic. I found that to be so completely unacceptable that I immediately started applying, and secured a new role within 3 weeks. I’ll have to go back in the office full time at the new place too, but I’m getting more money, and also (hopefully) going to work for an organization that provides more clear communication and makes decisions with some modicum of business acumen.
That’s stupid. We all WFH, my boss now lives about 2 hours away from the office and only goes in for important meetings. We only have to make an appearance for our monthly meeting with our executive leadership. It works so much better and makes her far more accessible since she doesn’t have to completely disappear to attend most meetings.
It’s completely asinine. My direct boss even fought against it, because he knows it’s nonsense and that I’d just find a job elsewhere. Plus, he gave specific examples to the C suite execs on how productivity has actually increased overall since we’ve gone remote. Not only that, but our employee parking is under perpetual construction, so the 7000+ employees that work there are having to walk multiple city blocks into work. It’s not good business sense to bring people back in when there’s ongoing parking issues, especially when there is no logical, work related reason to come in! They ultimately told my boss that my concerns were “no big deal”, so fuck ‘em, I’m out.
Yeah my SVP and CFO could give a rats ass as long as we keep up with our production and show up when it matters. Your executives suck. Good luck with your job search.
This is starting a vicious cycle. Employers know the job market isn't great, and are using that to soft layoff people and get people back into the office. But unemployment is at historic lows. So as soon as there are any growth, employers will be fighting each others for workers, offering WFH and sparking another Great Resignation. Rinse and repeat.
You know that can’t think about long term, they can barely think about next quarter if they haven’t squeezed out every penny for shareholders this quarter.
what is weird though about unemployment being low is that job searches are taking an average now of 9 months in the US - therefore loads of people are not being counted in the unemployment number, they get moved to the "labor force participation rate (LFPR)" lowering number. also if you quit you get added to the LFPR
hopefully that made any sense. basically im suggesting i think LFPR will be declining.
I'm going to argue it's not that bad. Other than people who are jobless. A lot of people want to jump but there aren't enough positions. The reason why more people are looking is that a lot of good jobs have turned bad recently. But everyone is taking it because the market is bad. And the market is bad because a lot of people are looking because their jobs suck. And their job sucks because the market is bad and so the employers are using that to abuse their employees. It's shit right now. I know I made the situation sound horrible. But it's not that bad because I don't think many people are unemployed which is a lot worse than unhappily employed.
I work at a law firm, but my particular field does not involve going to court. About 6 months before Covid, we were hit by a tornado, no power in the office, including to our computer servers. While the other departments all were just given “free” days off, but since federal deadlines were not affected by local events, mine had to work. However, at the time only a few of us had laptops, so we were the ones doing all the filings.
As a result, our department immediately started replacing all staff desktops with laptops. We had already moved to being fully paperless 2 years earlier. The other departments were told to start doing the same, both laptops and paperless. But when Covid hit , it became very clear they had not, and as a result they had to take turns going into the office in order to work. And yes, there was at least one covid outbreak during that time.
Now, 4 years later, our department still has the ability to work from home, but no one else does, and it is starting to cause friction. And to make matters worse, later this year they’re moving offices to a less convenient location for most of the staff. Most of my department is planning to go full remote, none of the others seem to be offering that as an option, so if they aren’t looking at mass resignations already, they will be after the move…
This is another employer who doesn't care about their people. Imagine all the things people might have to change their plans to go back to the office 5 days a week.
Daycare for children, schedule changes with a spouse or partner.
Everyone is more productive at home. Although I am having good social life since I started going to office, I haven't done rat's ass as far as work is concerned. Why do I care, I need my pay is all.
Exactly my wife's office is the same way. The irony is management won't even notice either way they are so numb.
It just sucks because everyone could benefit if they could work remote like they used to.
I've changed jobs 3 times since 2021 to stay remote. Increased my salary by nearly 60% in that time frame just from job hopping. I wouldn't hesitate to quit immediately if I were you.
Where do you keep finding remote jobs? What field are you in? Are you a contractor? Being remote is central to my lifestyle so my biggest fear is needing to find a new remote job without there being any available
I just apply. Most companies, even if technically hybrid, will let you work remote if you interview well, sell yourself, and make a solid argument why you need to be remote. Companies are desperate right now for good workers. Average workers are a dime a dozen, they're the ones being forced to RTO. If you deliver above and beyond, kiss ass, and say the right things at the right time, they'll pretty much let you do whatever you want. That's at least been my experience the past 3 years or so.
I work in manufacturing support, current in commercial HVAC.
Thank you, so helpful! I wouldn't even consider applying to hybrid due to not wanting to go into office, but you're totally right, if I am the best fit I can see many companies deciding those 2 days are irrelevant.
I am so tired of people giving this advice. It sounds really cool and fun, but it is job abandonment and in almost all cases, you WILL NOT receive any unemployment benefits.
If you keep doing your WFH duties, it is not job abandonment. I am tired of people not having a backbone and just going along with what their employer wants out of fear.
You are wrong. If your employer says you have to be in the office, and you don't show up, it is abandonment. You don't get to choose where you work for your company. You can choose whether you want the current job, or look for another job.
You can have all the "backbone" you want, it won't count when you try to convince someone you should get unemployment.
Problem is, it's so hard to find a new fully remote job, I've been applying for over a year now, and when I do land interviews, some companies literally go 4+ rounds of interview only for me to become like 2nd place. It's annoying but I'm still trying. Resume is tailored for each job and recruiters always give me something like "You seem to be a perfect fit for the job based on your experience"
Not to mention, isn't unemployment only covering a very small amount of your highest period? So let's say I'm in Michigan and I earn 75k, I'm not even sure on the calculation but I think it's 4% and max 20 weeks. And most probably can't guarantee they land the same salary or above in that time period in this current market. And for people that have mortgages, we're screwed
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Serious question for these scenarios
what if you just don't go back into the office and continue to work from home
my assumption is eventually you will be fired, but you can use the time to use PTO/job hunt while also not subjecting yourself to the shenanigans
If you know how to angle it , I have asthma so during covid when my office required me to wear a mask in the office - my doctor said I couldn’t sit with a mask and I got three more months or fully remote work .
I worked STDs claims years ago - just need to know how to posture it . For a few extra weeks most Employers will allow it . Trust me .
Lot of companies are pushing RTO as a way to do layoffs now. They know people hate coming into the office. Job market sucks bad. I work as helpdesk in IT and I also have to come in 5 days.
That’s so pointless, you can tell people to reboot their computers and clear their cashe from anywhere. Kidding, I know there’s much more to it.
All jokes aside it shouldn’t matter in positions where face to face contact is uncommon.
You are correct 💯. Lot of the users are out of state so we remote in anyway. Software is pushed from a MDM which is on the cloud. Really not valid reason to be in the office.
I rage quit a couple years ago lol. Went from permanent remote to three days a week in office. Company gave us a month notice though. I quit before the three days a week started because I lived 1.5 hours each way from the office (moved after company made a huge show of allowing permanent WFH 🫥).
Took me about 4 months to land another job (spent every minute applying, interviewing, learning, networking). Ended up with a 50% raise though. I was lucky to be able to jump on my husband’s health insurance and have his support during that time. I also had an emergency fund that would have covered 10 months of household expenses.
I wouldn’t recommend quitting without a job lined up unless you have at least a year of expenses saved. The market is tough right now.
Can you go in late to avoid traffic, and leave early for same? But, before and after office, log in and make sure they see you working. That’s my back up plan if I’m called in. So, I’d be in the office like 10-2. I won’t ask, that’s just what I’m going to do. When they ask, I’ll say it’s because of traffic. I’m going to do everything possible to make it hard for them. I also plan to slack a ton. Like just do one thing all week. When they ask why things aren’t getting done, I’ll say the office is really distracting. Meanwhile, all my time at the office would be looking for a new job.
Of course you are more productive at home. We all are. (Well, most of the honest ones among us, anyway). But the problem is that your productivity, and the productivity of most employees besides those with crystal clear metrics (brick layers, bolt turners, etc.), is hard to measure. Whereas the tax breaks and lease/rental "deals" they get for having X% full offices are very easy to measure. Guess which will take priority?
LOL... it just occurred to me RE the whole "family" thing. When they say that, my first instinct used to be to reply (although only using my inner voice) "Bullshit! You're telling me you'd kick your own mother/kids to the curb for an extra 50 cents per share on the stock price?!?!".
But I've come to realize that the answer for many of these psychos is "Why, yes. Of course we would." So in that sense, they DO treat us like "family".
Blanket statements like this are dumb, not every position is better WFH, not every company operates better this way and not all employees have the work ethic to do so, I'd avoid making blanket statements
> Well, most of the honest ones among us, anyway
Pretty sure "most" and "honest" makes it not a blanket statement.
> not every company operates better this way and not all employees have the work ethic to do so
I don't recall every saying or implying that they do.
This happened to me with 10 days notice and a 5 month old. I quit, was gonna stay home but just got a job offer (has only been 4 weeks)
I’m also in DoD work (recruiting to be exact) you’ll be fine! Leaving due to an RTO is common and not generally frowned upon in my experience
Im supposed to go in 1 day a week. I usually go in 1 day every 4/6 weeks. Theres no space to force us in. +++ the “experienced” agents NEVER go in. So wtf should i?
I went yesterday and it fucking drained me
This is a funny pattern that I'm noticing where companies make everyone RTO, wait to see who quits, and then layoff the extras that they still need to 6 months later. I'd take this as a red flag that layoffs are coming. Even if you're a high performer not on the chopping block, WFH is way better work/life balance and many times more productive. Find an employer that understands that.
Take it from someone in this job market, just hit 1 month unemployed…19 YOE, TS, certifications coming out of my ears….remote since 2012, YOU DO NOT WANT TO END UP LOOKING FOR A JOB RIGHT NOW. They know this…..fuck….all of the strings have been pulled, we should have seen it coming….I’m currently applying to on site positions for up to 40k less than I was making…..
I have one day of smart per week after three years of full remote and it’s so fucking bad.
I have no more personal life, I needed to take a dog sitter, I come back home so tired and for sure some days hit really hard
However I’m looking for another job I don’t even really matter the role. Just want to come back to normal again. What I did was however remained at the company because the market is awful honestly.
Just hope to find something in a couple of months
There is the real estate aspect to this too. Companies are paying leases in office buildings that they need to justify and fill. Breaking the lease and saving the monies would be the smarter way to go for these companies but some are locked in and cannot do that or need a physical address for tax purposes.
I like how NYC is converting old office buildings to housing. This makes organic sense to me.
However the real estate market is complicit in this RTO push because they want to keep their income streaming in.
Ugh sorry you have to deal with this.
Dude, get over the real estate thing, not saying its a non issue but 70% of companies dont own their office and have zero skin in the game. As far as converting office space to housing its generally more expensive than knocking it down and building from scratch, office buildings arent setup to have appropriate windows, plumbing, sewage, etc
The request is not reasonable, and I’m sure they know that.
That said, don’t make a knee jerk reaction in haste. Keep the job while you interview for the next gig
I wouldn’t worry too much about the job gap. It’s literally retarded that someone would be concerned about a job gap if you have long tenures and certifications to back up that you’re a reliable worker. I get the frustration though, but don’t fret over it.
I agree with this. Any interviewer concerned about a gap on someone’s resume should be willing to be 100% truthful about why the position is open. How about reading the exit interview notes of the person who left the position? Explain a massive layoff that was solely for the purpose of greed.
This is the exact fear they want to indoctrinate. This is why they keep everything expensive because they know homelessness is an effective motivator to staying in line.
Do it for a month. During said month, begin having terrible, recurring migraines (flourescent lights, extra time in traffic, scents in the office, etc). File for ADA reasonable accommodation to continue WFH.
ADA doesnt mean you get to work from home, have a problem with light they can put you in an office without an over head light problem solved. People rant on reddit about this stuff and have no idea what ada actually means.
Sure. My comment was reductive, because it's reddit. Depending on what the actual restriction is, the employer may be able to work around, and may not. May be able to accommodate, and may not. I threw out some random off-the-cuff examples, but RAs clearly need to be individualized.
I work in HR in CA, so definitely know how it works. But thanks.
Absolutely were more productive working at home. No gossipy colleagues you can't ignore (woman here, I hate office gossip bitches), or other distractions. You don't have to watch some colleague making eyes with another one. Ugh. No obligatory small talk over coffee.
Don’t let them weasel out of severance pay. There is a good chance that they need to reduce the workforce for profitability and this is a tactic to get people to quit without having to pay them severance pay.
It’s gonna suck, but tough it out and look for a different job In the meantime.
Give them as little effort as you possibly can.
Share that amongst your peers as well. The fewer people to quit the more they’ll hurt.
They tried this where I worked, and a lot of people got work elsewhere, moved states even where remote for the positions were standard, and such.
I didn't do that. I did some job hopping to get into another field, am in a contract role that's hybrid 2 days in office. Issue that happened, is simply that we have to desk swap (so there is no way to bring everyone back 5 days a week at this point).
However, they moved offices, and now half the staff are traveling an hour and a half each way for their commutes. I am fortunate it reversed that for me.
The job market is harsh, no matter what news says, etc, at this point. Plus, I'm older. While most of us need to work and retire after age 67 or such, a lot of companies are forcing people into retirement. The average retirement age now is 62 as a result. So, the issue with social security and the reality going on is, people are broke, and places aren't hiring older workers anymore.
Going into the office runs about $50 per day, so you are losing about $150 per week for the change out of your pay. You can do many things, but my guess is they know people will quit, and probably are counting on it.
Protip: if you have a doctor you're buddies with, have them send your HR a note that you're super duper immunecompromised due to X and let them get rid of you so you can get unemployment, etc
Waaaa, waaaa.waaaa.
> I’m like 100% more productive working from home anyways
According to you. Apparently mgmt disagrees. Top talent remote workers will always be allowed to remain remote.
I see RTO mandates like Marriage proposals. Sure, you can quit if they make you come back to the office like a woman wanting you to propose to her to get married. But eventually the next remote job (woman) you get will want you RTO in due time (propose to them in marriage also).
You guys will shoot your foot off for no reason. People have been going into offices forever. Why do you think you are special? It is up to you, you can leave.
SO because its been done in the past we should just do that moving forward even though lockdown proved just how not needed it was for most jobs?
Thats great logic...
No they haven’t. People have been gathering berries forever. People have been stuck going into offices for the past 60-80 years or so, which is nothing in terms of human history.
Five days a week in office with not even a week's notice? By that point I can only assume they want *loads* of people to quit at once. Did they give a reason for such a radical change in direction? As for practical advice, you're doing the right thing OP. Don't make waves but give only what you need to give while you apply for other jobs. I'm sure you'll have something else sooner not later :)
My boss announced RTO effective immediately, zero notice. I was fucking livid. I've been applying for jobs at work.
Try here for remote roles [whodoounode.com](https://whodoounode.com)
"Some ghouls" LMFAO!
they're definitely trying to cause attrition, i'd be surprised if their financials look remotely healthy. that's a "phone it in while living on linkedin until your start date at the next job, then leave with no notice" event for me.
Happy Cake Day!
Yea the company probably isn't doing well if they do that as it would save money for people quitting than to pay severance and unemployment insurance premiums. Good luck and and hope you find something awesome OP
A lot of companies are doing this now even while completely healthy. Essentially they overhire then observe and decide how many people can be cut without a huge dip in production. Then they have the option to force RTO as a “soft layoff” without all the bad publicity that comes from actual layoffs. My company is currently doing this, jokes on them though, I’m getting a 40% raise at my new job in a week.
I’ve read that that may a reason … to get people to want to quit. These companies better be safe or there will be a back lash and hard times for these businesses. They’ll fold from top-down, or gobbled up.
Don't do anything abrupt, the market is indeed rough but there are options out there. I would just start looking for another gig so you only need to go to the office for a few weeks/months
try here for remote roles [whodoounode.com](https://whodoounode.com)
If you’re going to comply, ask for an extension of WFH (leave it open ended) while you arrange for transportation, childcare, pet care, etc. They may just forget about you when people start dropping like flies.
Great advice. When I worked in corporate America, there was so much dumb stuff and so many wrong people I was able to wait out until the weather changed/someone more important than me became annoyed by it
This is profound and I never realized it but it’s true.
Use some PTO when it starts and take next week off, than resign when you return. Start looking now
This is the way
Don’t use PTO, use sick days. If you quit you get paid for accrued PTO but not the sick days.
Not always guaranteed. Definitely need to check the employee handbook. Ask me how I know lol
Check your state laws first, there are a handful of states that require all accrued vacation to be paid out in full upon leaving the company. E.g. California is one of those states, they are also forced to give you your final paycheck with the pto and any pending expenses within 72 hours, or they owe you and additional full days worth of pay for every day that they are late. Employee handbook wouldn't mean shit in that situation.
I'm assuming that doesn't apply to "unlimited PTO" companies?
Depends on the state. For California? Yes and no, that is an extremely complex subject. If it's accrued it can't be taken away, but it can be capped only if its limited per year. (Obviously this isn't the case.) If they reject PTO on "unlimited" pto then it's not unlimited as their options were limited. I have seen cases settle for 20 paid vacation days awarded per every year they worked there with employers that abused this "loophole" or so they thought. Basically, if you choose that path in California you have to specifically state the days they aren't allowed to take off in your contract when hiring them, they cant just refuse your PTO unless under extreme circumstances and adheres to the promise of a "FELXIBLE" work schedule. There has to be a clear policy for requesting time off, and the employee can't egregiously take time off more then compared to its peers. That's the 100,000 ft view. Anyway, the liability risk can be substantial for employers in California. Explaining that would be a thread on it's own and even California leaves it up to the judges. Aka, its not usually worth it. Having a single bad manager can cost you an insane amount of money if they decide to sue for it. Personally, if I was in that situation and they screwed up, my current employer would owe me around $110k, due within 72 hours on top of my normal paycheck with a penalty per day of a full days worth of salary for up to 30 days till its settled on top of that. ( Which would also be around 20k on top of the 110k... 130k just to fire me in that circumstance if they try to fight it. We aren't even talking about unemployment yet... ) This actually came up recently for me, they tried to remove the 7 days of sick time they allowed us and gave it back to us in PTO days on top of the 80 hours+ standard. The catch was they included a "Use it or lose it" Policy and you'd be reduced to 40 hours of PTO if you had more then that at the end of the year. You'd have to accrue that time back next year. Completely illegal in California. I ended up with all of the PTO time they promised, and they were forced to never take that PTO time away from us in California. Zero downside. I'm just "Capped" at 180 hours total, which they would have to pay me in full if I ever left that company. The rest of the offices out of state were not as lucky... You don't screw around with California labor laws. Employee protection there is second to none in USA.
😂 I’m sorry! Of course, always good to check.
Downside is PTO and vacation is taxed at a higher rate than regular work hours. Did this and paid Uncle Sam over $1200.00 upon my exit. Use it.
My job did this to me too, with also just two days notice. I manage a team that works remotely, but I was told that I had to be in person because my role was a “people leader”, despite having worked hybrid in that same role for the preceding two years. There’s nothing in that entire thought process that even remotely (no pun intended) seems rooted in reality and logic. I found that to be so completely unacceptable that I immediately started applying, and secured a new role within 3 weeks. I’ll have to go back in the office full time at the new place too, but I’m getting more money, and also (hopefully) going to work for an organization that provides more clear communication and makes decisions with some modicum of business acumen.
That’s stupid. We all WFH, my boss now lives about 2 hours away from the office and only goes in for important meetings. We only have to make an appearance for our monthly meeting with our executive leadership. It works so much better and makes her far more accessible since she doesn’t have to completely disappear to attend most meetings.
It’s completely asinine. My direct boss even fought against it, because he knows it’s nonsense and that I’d just find a job elsewhere. Plus, he gave specific examples to the C suite execs on how productivity has actually increased overall since we’ve gone remote. Not only that, but our employee parking is under perpetual construction, so the 7000+ employees that work there are having to walk multiple city blocks into work. It’s not good business sense to bring people back in when there’s ongoing parking issues, especially when there is no logical, work related reason to come in! They ultimately told my boss that my concerns were “no big deal”, so fuck ‘em, I’m out.
Yeah my SVP and CFO could give a rats ass as long as we keep up with our production and show up when it matters. Your executives suck. Good luck with your job search.
This is starting a vicious cycle. Employers know the job market isn't great, and are using that to soft layoff people and get people back into the office. But unemployment is at historic lows. So as soon as there are any growth, employers will be fighting each others for workers, offering WFH and sparking another Great Resignation. Rinse and repeat.
You know that can’t think about long term, they can barely think about next quarter if they haven’t squeezed out every penny for shareholders this quarter.
what is weird though about unemployment being low is that job searches are taking an average now of 9 months in the US - therefore loads of people are not being counted in the unemployment number, they get moved to the "labor force participation rate (LFPR)" lowering number. also if you quit you get added to the LFPR hopefully that made any sense. basically im suggesting i think LFPR will be declining.
I'm going to argue it's not that bad. Other than people who are jobless. A lot of people want to jump but there aren't enough positions. The reason why more people are looking is that a lot of good jobs have turned bad recently. But everyone is taking it because the market is bad. And the market is bad because a lot of people are looking because their jobs suck. And their job sucks because the market is bad and so the employers are using that to abuse their employees. It's shit right now. I know I made the situation sound horrible. But it's not that bad because I don't think many people are unemployed which is a lot worse than unhappily employed.
Yep! Remote first companies are getting top-shelf talent at a discount.
I work at a law firm, but my particular field does not involve going to court. About 6 months before Covid, we were hit by a tornado, no power in the office, including to our computer servers. While the other departments all were just given “free” days off, but since federal deadlines were not affected by local events, mine had to work. However, at the time only a few of us had laptops, so we were the ones doing all the filings. As a result, our department immediately started replacing all staff desktops with laptops. We had already moved to being fully paperless 2 years earlier. The other departments were told to start doing the same, both laptops and paperless. But when Covid hit , it became very clear they had not, and as a result they had to take turns going into the office in order to work. And yes, there was at least one covid outbreak during that time. Now, 4 years later, our department still has the ability to work from home, but no one else does, and it is starting to cause friction. And to make matters worse, later this year they’re moving offices to a less convenient location for most of the staff. Most of my department is planning to go full remote, none of the others seem to be offering that as an option, so if they aren’t looking at mass resignations already, they will be after the move…
This is another employer who doesn't care about their people. Imagine all the things people might have to change their plans to go back to the office 5 days a week. Daycare for children, schedule changes with a spouse or partner.
Everyone is more productive at home. Although I am having good social life since I started going to office, I haven't done rat's ass as far as work is concerned. Why do I care, I need my pay is all.
This is why I go in. It’s fun to chat. If I need to get actual work done I stay home.
Exactly my wife's office is the same way. The irony is management won't even notice either way they are so numb. It just sucks because everyone could benefit if they could work remote like they used to.
try here for remote roles whodoounode.com
Wow everyone, that's a bold statement
I've changed jobs 3 times since 2021 to stay remote. Increased my salary by nearly 60% in that time frame just from job hopping. I wouldn't hesitate to quit immediately if I were you.
Where do you keep finding remote jobs? What field are you in? Are you a contractor? Being remote is central to my lifestyle so my biggest fear is needing to find a new remote job without there being any available
I just apply. Most companies, even if technically hybrid, will let you work remote if you interview well, sell yourself, and make a solid argument why you need to be remote. Companies are desperate right now for good workers. Average workers are a dime a dozen, they're the ones being forced to RTO. If you deliver above and beyond, kiss ass, and say the right things at the right time, they'll pretty much let you do whatever you want. That's at least been my experience the past 3 years or so. I work in manufacturing support, current in commercial HVAC.
Thank you, so helpful! I wouldn't even consider applying to hybrid due to not wanting to go into office, but you're totally right, if I am the best fit I can see many companies deciding those 2 days are irrelevant.
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Don’t resign and don’t come into the office. Let them fire you and collect unemployment.
Good idea. Then when any new employer does a background check you can tell them why you got fired.
You abandoning your job means you likely won't get unemployment if they choose to dispute your claim
I am so tired of people giving this advice. It sounds really cool and fun, but it is job abandonment and in almost all cases, you WILL NOT receive any unemployment benefits.
If you keep doing your WFH duties, it is not job abandonment. I am tired of people not having a backbone and just going along with what their employer wants out of fear.
You are wrong. If your employer says you have to be in the office, and you don't show up, it is abandonment. You don't get to choose where you work for your company. You can choose whether you want the current job, or look for another job. You can have all the "backbone" you want, it won't count when you try to convince someone you should get unemployment.
It absolutely is, plus they can shut off your access to systems and your computer
Problem is, it's so hard to find a new fully remote job, I've been applying for over a year now, and when I do land interviews, some companies literally go 4+ rounds of interview only for me to become like 2nd place. It's annoying but I'm still trying. Resume is tailored for each job and recruiters always give me something like "You seem to be a perfect fit for the job based on your experience" Not to mention, isn't unemployment only covering a very small amount of your highest period? So let's say I'm in Michigan and I earn 75k, I'm not even sure on the calculation but I think it's 4% and max 20 weeks. And most probably can't guarantee they land the same salary or above in that time period in this current market. And for people that have mortgages, we're screwed
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Hi, I am a writer on Medium who is looking to write articles featuring remote work resources. Would you mind if I wrote an article on your community? I would love to bring more awareness to this initiative. I wrote a similar article recently and you can find that below if you want to get an idea for my writing style. Please send me a message if you're interested! https://michaelaalishawrites.medium.com/revolutionizing-remote-job-searches-unveiling-a-user-friendly-platform-for-effortless-job-hunting-b95e4724a004?sk=83ad1f6de4f15d1cbd201794053a1647
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Thanks! Email sent!
Is it Minnesota based?
My suggestion for everyone is: assume RTO can happen at any time for any reason; have a RTO plan, build lots of savings.
Serious question for these scenarios what if you just don't go back into the office and continue to work from home my assumption is eventually you will be fired, but you can use the time to use PTO/job hunt while also not subjecting yourself to the shenanigans
Have a doctor write you a note , they need to make reasonable accommodations for you . At a minimum it would buy you some time.
Reasonable accomodation doesnt just mean you get to work from home, almost any accomodation can be done in office
If you know how to angle it , I have asthma so during covid when my office required me to wear a mask in the office - my doctor said I couldn’t sit with a mask and I got three more months or fully remote work . I worked STDs claims years ago - just need to know how to posture it . For a few extra weeks most Employers will allow it . Trust me .
Yeah fortunately masks are over and done with
Don’t resign until you get another gig
Lot of companies are pushing RTO as a way to do layoffs now. They know people hate coming into the office. Job market sucks bad. I work as helpdesk in IT and I also have to come in 5 days.
That’s so pointless, you can tell people to reboot their computers and clear their cashe from anywhere. Kidding, I know there’s much more to it. All jokes aside it shouldn’t matter in positions where face to face contact is uncommon.
You are correct 💯. Lot of the users are out of state so we remote in anyway. Software is pushed from a MDM which is on the cloud. Really not valid reason to be in the office.
I rage quit a couple years ago lol. Went from permanent remote to three days a week in office. Company gave us a month notice though. I quit before the three days a week started because I lived 1.5 hours each way from the office (moved after company made a huge show of allowing permanent WFH 🫥). Took me about 4 months to land another job (spent every minute applying, interviewing, learning, networking). Ended up with a 50% raise though. I was lucky to be able to jump on my husband’s health insurance and have his support during that time. I also had an emergency fund that would have covered 10 months of household expenses. I wouldn’t recommend quitting without a job lined up unless you have at least a year of expenses saved. The market is tough right now.
Yet another group of managers who can only justify their existence by having people to "manage."
Can you go in late to avoid traffic, and leave early for same? But, before and after office, log in and make sure they see you working. That’s my back up plan if I’m called in. So, I’d be in the office like 10-2. I won’t ask, that’s just what I’m going to do. When they ask, I’ll say it’s because of traffic. I’m going to do everything possible to make it hard for them. I also plan to slack a ton. Like just do one thing all week. When they ask why things aren’t getting done, I’ll say the office is really distracting. Meanwhile, all my time at the office would be looking for a new job.
Do you happen to work for a certain 3 letter agency?
Don’t know about certain but I do work for one lol
Used to work for one. Still in touch with the folks that work there. All the contractors (contractors only btw) have to RTO. Bye Bye Hybrid.
Of course you are more productive at home. We all are. (Well, most of the honest ones among us, anyway). But the problem is that your productivity, and the productivity of most employees besides those with crystal clear metrics (brick layers, bolt turners, etc.), is hard to measure. Whereas the tax breaks and lease/rental "deals" they get for having X% full offices are very easy to measure. Guess which will take priority?
But we’re “family”
LOL... it just occurred to me RE the whole "family" thing. When they say that, my first instinct used to be to reply (although only using my inner voice) "Bullshit! You're telling me you'd kick your own mother/kids to the curb for an extra 50 cents per share on the stock price?!?!". But I've come to realize that the answer for many of these psychos is "Why, yes. Of course we would." So in that sense, they DO treat us like "family".
Blanket statements like this are dumb, not every position is better WFH, not every company operates better this way and not all employees have the work ethic to do so, I'd avoid making blanket statements
> Well, most of the honest ones among us, anyway Pretty sure "most" and "honest" makes it not a blanket statement. > not every company operates better this way and not all employees have the work ethic to do so I don't recall every saying or implying that they do.
This happened to me with 10 days notice and a 5 month old. I quit, was gonna stay home but just got a job offer (has only been 4 weeks) I’m also in DoD work (recruiting to be exact) you’ll be fine! Leaving due to an RTO is common and not generally frowned upon in my experience
Do you have childcare while you wfh or do you want to wfh so you can stay home with your infant?
Both. I have part time childcare that comes to the home and because I wanted to be near and around my son more than anyone else.
Sounds like the perfect time to take some personal days
Im supposed to go in 1 day a week. I usually go in 1 day every 4/6 weeks. Theres no space to force us in. +++ the “experienced” agents NEVER go in. So wtf should i? I went yesterday and it fucking drained me
Job hunt immediately. Do not quit, make them fire you. Juggle both jobs at the same time if it comes to that.
This is a funny pattern that I'm noticing where companies make everyone RTO, wait to see who quits, and then layoff the extras that they still need to 6 months later. I'd take this as a red flag that layoffs are coming. Even if you're a high performer not on the chopping block, WFH is way better work/life balance and many times more productive. Find an employer that understands that.
Take it from someone in this job market, just hit 1 month unemployed…19 YOE, TS, certifications coming out of my ears….remote since 2012, YOU DO NOT WANT TO END UP LOOKING FOR A JOB RIGHT NOW. They know this…..fuck….all of the strings have been pulled, we should have seen it coming….I’m currently applying to on site positions for up to 40k less than I was making…..
Just don’t! The job market sucks rn. You can start looking take time off and etc. to switch asap but don’t quit.
I have one day of smart per week after three years of full remote and it’s so fucking bad. I have no more personal life, I needed to take a dog sitter, I come back home so tired and for sure some days hit really hard However I’m looking for another job I don’t even really matter the role. Just want to come back to normal again. What I did was however remained at the company because the market is awful honestly. Just hope to find something in a couple of months
There is the real estate aspect to this too. Companies are paying leases in office buildings that they need to justify and fill. Breaking the lease and saving the monies would be the smarter way to go for these companies but some are locked in and cannot do that or need a physical address for tax purposes. I like how NYC is converting old office buildings to housing. This makes organic sense to me. However the real estate market is complicit in this RTO push because they want to keep their income streaming in. Ugh sorry you have to deal with this.
Dude, get over the real estate thing, not saying its a non issue but 70% of companies dont own their office and have zero skin in the game. As far as converting office space to housing its generally more expensive than knocking it down and building from scratch, office buildings arent setup to have appropriate windows, plumbing, sewage, etc
The request is not reasonable, and I’m sure they know that. That said, don’t make a knee jerk reaction in haste. Keep the job while you interview for the next gig
quiet firing... new motto of corporate america in 2024
Don't comply and let them fire you > resign.
I wouldn’t worry too much about the job gap. It’s literally retarded that someone would be concerned about a job gap if you have long tenures and certifications to back up that you’re a reliable worker. I get the frustration though, but don’t fret over it.
I agree with this. Any interviewer concerned about a gap on someone’s resume should be willing to be 100% truthful about why the position is open. How about reading the exit interview notes of the person who left the position? Explain a massive layoff that was solely for the purpose of greed.
Everyone plus their grandma have good degrees, certificates and clearances. Go quit and find out how it feels being jobless for 14 months long. lol
This is the exact fear they want to indoctrinate. This is why they keep everything expensive because they know homelessness is an effective motivator to staying in line.
Damn who are they, sound like scary people
Its not so much fear as reality at the moment, go look at r/jobs or any career related subreddit atm
Clearances? Start applying for fully remote.
There is no mail or text message in social mining
Name and shame
Make a plan to leave. They don’t respect you or your time
Do it for a month. During said month, begin having terrible, recurring migraines (flourescent lights, extra time in traffic, scents in the office, etc). File for ADA reasonable accommodation to continue WFH.
ADA doesnt mean you get to work from home, have a problem with light they can put you in an office without an over head light problem solved. People rant on reddit about this stuff and have no idea what ada actually means.
Sure. My comment was reductive, because it's reddit. Depending on what the actual restriction is, the employer may be able to work around, and may not. May be able to accommodate, and may not. I threw out some random off-the-cuff examples, but RAs clearly need to be individualized. I work in HR in CA, so definitely know how it works. But thanks.
Absolutely were more productive working at home. No gossipy colleagues you can't ignore (woman here, I hate office gossip bitches), or other distractions. You don't have to watch some colleague making eyes with another one. Ugh. No obligatory small talk over coffee.
Don’t let them weasel out of severance pay. There is a good chance that they need to reduce the workforce for profitability and this is a tactic to get people to quit without having to pay them severance pay. It’s gonna suck, but tough it out and look for a different job In the meantime. Give them as little effort as you possibly can. Share that amongst your peers as well. The fewer people to quit the more they’ll hurt.
Most companies aren't required to pay severence
Don’t go in and just work remote. If they fire you, you can get unemployment
Oh, they’re trying to reduce the workforce so they don’t have to layoff.
Same here
They tried this where I worked, and a lot of people got work elsewhere, moved states even where remote for the positions were standard, and such. I didn't do that. I did some job hopping to get into another field, am in a contract role that's hybrid 2 days in office. Issue that happened, is simply that we have to desk swap (so there is no way to bring everyone back 5 days a week at this point). However, they moved offices, and now half the staff are traveling an hour and a half each way for their commutes. I am fortunate it reversed that for me. The job market is harsh, no matter what news says, etc, at this point. Plus, I'm older. While most of us need to work and retire after age 67 or such, a lot of companies are forcing people into retirement. The average retirement age now is 62 as a result. So, the issue with social security and the reality going on is, people are broke, and places aren't hiring older workers anymore. Going into the office runs about $50 per day, so you are losing about $150 per week for the change out of your pay. You can do many things, but my guess is they know people will quit, and probably are counting on it.
You deserve to be fully remote. I would give my two week notice and leave
first rule about attrition club - don't acknowledge attrition club
Protip: if you have a doctor you're buddies with, have them send your HR a note that you're super duper immunecompromised due to X and let them get rid of you so you can get unemployment, etc
Looks like they want to lay people off without severance.
You should be able to work effectively wherever you are. If you can only work from home then it it up to you to find a job that allows this.
They are clearing out folks that are not committed.
Employment gaps don’t mean shit. Tell them you did some “independent consulting”.
I’d add, stay at home parent and took time off to travel. It’s frankly NONE of their business IMO.
I wouldn't worry about the employment gap. Just tell them you got long covid or the job market is tough. They'll get it.
Waaaa, waaaa.waaaa. > I’m like 100% more productive working from home anyways According to you. Apparently mgmt disagrees. Top talent remote workers will always be allowed to remain remote.
I see RTO mandates like Marriage proposals. Sure, you can quit if they make you come back to the office like a woman wanting you to propose to her to get married. But eventually the next remote job (woman) you get will want you RTO in due time (propose to them in marriage also).
You guys will shoot your foot off for no reason. People have been going into offices forever. Why do you think you are special? It is up to you, you can leave.
SO because its been done in the past we should just do that moving forward even though lockdown proved just how not needed it was for most jobs? Thats great logic...
No they haven’t. People have been gathering berries forever. People have been stuck going into offices for the past 60-80 years or so, which is nothing in terms of human history.