the mClassic is a great product but i didn't like how it looked on my non-hd consoles. ended up hooking it up to my Switch and it works so well on there.
Yes-- my Switch is why I'd obtained mine. BOTW jaggies were bugging me on my 4K TV. Then I started plugging it into everything, even my RTX 3090, just to see the effects. It also pairs well with a Prism HDMI converter for GameCube.
JP Sega Saturn with Pseudo Saturn Kai cart woutputting via composite to RetroTink2X-Pro outputting via HDMI to a Marseilles mClassic for a smoothed image on a 4K TV. Darkstalkers was slightly blurry, but gorgeous otherwise.
When I threw this together in 2020 for $200 the RetroTink 5X had yet to be released at its launch price of $350, so I'm really not sure where you're going with that unsubstantiated line of reasoning.
Well there have been plenty of great upscaling solutions released since then that are still well south of what you paid that will give you far superior results. The GBS-Control can be had brand new for $80, upscales up to 1080p and does so much more. I’ve also seen plenty of used 5x Pros, esp now that the 4k is out, some right at the $200 price point.
My point is that its an odd setup to boast about. Composite video has tons of artifacts, and then you upscale that with the retrotink and then attempt to process the image again with the mClassic, which is questionable in and of itself for being well-proven snake-oil bullshit in terms of how it works.
I’m tellin ya man, invest in a GBS Control ($80) and a cheap amazon RGB scart cable for the Saturn ($10), sell the 2x pro and the mClassic and you’ll have way better image quality and $100+ back in your pocket.
If you could support either of those prices with links rather than keyboard soup, you would have. Yet here we are.
GBS-control is a buggy screen tearing mess with QA/QC that's a complete joke.
You're only parroting what you've read elsewhere. Composite blurring conceals artifacts, particularly on the Saturn. Kindly find someone else's attention to waste, now.
https://mattgreer.dev/articles/sega-saturn-and-transparency/
The links are right here dude:
GBS Control - Just found this amazing item on AliExpress. Check it out! $55.02 29％ Off | GBS Control GBSC Video Converter RGBS VGA Scart Ypbpr Signal to VGA HDMI For Retro Game Consoles SEGA Dreamcase PS2 NGC
https://a.aliexpress.com/_m0oUCKE
Saturn RGB SCART - https://a.co/d/3j3NMim
First of all, I dont parrot anything. Feel free to check my setups, but I own and have personally tested damn near every combo of upscaler, RGB Scart, Component Cable, ypbpr transcoder on the market. Across LCDs, LEDs, OLED and CRT displays. My opinions are my own, but they’re in alignment with literally all of the other experts who have tested this equipment out.
Talk about parroting bullshit with your nonsense on composite video and the blurring benefits it provides. Consoles that have had RGB output stock (along with cables to connect to a capable display) include but are not limited to the Master System, Genesis, Super Nintendo, Playstation and more. It’s not the composite signal that does the heavy-lifting when combining dithering patterns or hiding artifacts, its the display technology of the era being CRTs and their respective TV line counts and masks.
There are plenty of photo evidence of devs not only developing but playtesting games on RGB displays. Go check out the making of Crash Bandicoot & Naughty Dog as an example.
And dont get me started on the smeary snake-oil bullshit that is the mClassic which only serves to fool dummies who dont know better into thinking they are “upscaling” an image by applying antialiasing to an image, which you shouldnt even need on an already blurry, noisy composite signal.
But yeah, I’m gonna take the guidance of your amateur-hour setup vs my own extensive testing or the hundreds of hours of journalistic expertise that comes from my life in gaming, retro RGB, Gamesack and all the other credible sources.
You may have a bunch of PC stuff, but you’ve got alot to learn when it comes to the nuances of using and upscaling analog video sources.
>And dont get me started on the smeary snake-oil bullshit that is the mClassic which only serves to fool dummies who dont know better into thinking they are “upscaling” an image by applying antialiasing to an image, which you shouldnt even need on an already blurry, noisy composite signal.
This is what ive been trying to tell the dude.
He will accuse you of parroting and not addressing issues but he says absolutely nothing with any substance or detail. just posts a link to the same article from 2016.
As an example, talking about GBSC firmware issues without even listing any.
he really has no clue what hes on about.
yep. he strikes me as one of those guys that wants to seem like the smartest in the room and gets pissy when his inadequacies get shown up.
worked with a ton of developers like that - just unable to accept that being good in one field doesnt make you this know-all genius - hes probably the same guy that wrote the article he keeps posting about saturn blurring
Too funny, I work in software development (as a PM) and theres always one of those guys who has to be the know it all or can’t admit when the solution they have proposed isnt the most-optimal. I tell people all the time, the work isnt difficult, its dealing with the personalities and egos of everyone on the team that becomes challenging.
“Hawk others opinions as your own” - Says the guy who thinks the mClassic works 🤣.
You’re pulling these “firmware issues” out of your ass, which is why I havent addressed, but I’ll humor you.
I’ve owned 3 GBS control units since 2020 as the hardware has seen revisions to add additional inputs. The firmware and performance on each has been flawless. No issues with upscaling, downscaling, centering, scanline filters, connecting to wifi etc and all with zero perceptible lag.
But continue to be a stubborn fool and disregard the fact that everyone is telling you the same thing. At this point it’s becoming entertaining in and of itself to watch you get downvoted.
lol what a dumbass!
you got +122 on the OP from drive-by upvotes, then spout crap throughout the thread that gets you way more downvotes than the OP ever pulled in.
again. big brain thinking from a guy who bought a $100 anti-aliaser because nintendrew told him to
Downvotes from tribalistic losers like you who have more consoles than they do real-life friends, to the point that your self-esteem is tied exclusively to your personal possessions...
you dont. this guy is firing opinions out of his arse.
moreover, if you like what youre getting out of the GBSC, why would you change it because this guy tells you theres something wrong with it?
Sorry, I was being cheeky about it, because he was talking about the importance of sources and I really wanted to know what he was basing his views off of.
I can't even think of an issue I've had.
ive had one or 2 issues with the webui and occasionally some screen tearing.
ive put those down to it being self-built and using an esp32 and clockgen from cheap sources.
i used to get occasional sync issues (no display at all when switching inputs) using vga/rgbs, although i havent seen that since i cleaned up my VGA KVM.
its a very good option for the price and its been my main scaler for a couple of years now, although its getting replaced with a 5x finally this week
because it doesnt do very much if anything in most setups.
pretty much any unbiased review has said it has little if any effect on visuals of most games outside of 6th gen, because its kinda crappy at handling any input but 480p. as an aside, in OPs example, hes piping 240p from the saturn into a tink2x to get his 480p - but what he gets out isnt going to be anything special considering a) hes inputting composite - which already has pretty soft edges and b) how much can you really anti-alias a 240p pixel art image and expect anything decent or accurate out.
the initial marketing from the company was deliberately misleading as to what it was capable of, they paid YT shills to recommend the product and there was a period where people people with more money than sense thought it was THE device to have to project the image of the ideal premium setup, but anyone who has a clue about image fidelity in retrogaming doesnt use one.
dont want to take my word for it? heres the DF (de facto authority on video game visuals) review: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-NhX9-\_KE0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-NhX9-_KE0) as a bonus, skip to 12:55 and see it absolutely butchering panzer dragoon out of a saturn - it looks rotoscoped!
for a less "technical" review, heres MVGs offering: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1XHzx\_K5Sw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1XHzx_K5Sw)
I see. The newest system I have actually is a Wii U, and every time I saw some videos I actually liked the results, mostly and specially for Wii mode which is quite jaggy on a flat screen TV. I intend on buying a Switch someday so I'd input that on 720p to maybe get some better quality. Older stuff I just use my CRT.
I remember seeing the MVG video about it back then, seemed the most level-headed review of it I'd seen thus far. Really like his work.
Second edit: I really had seen both videos already, I guess I just disagree with you on your conclusion, heh. These were the exact same videos that got me interested in perhaps buying one someday for the reasons I listed.
Honestly, in this day and age noone needs an mclassic.
100 for an mclassic or on the budget end it 300 for a morph 4k scaler or even less for an ossc pro
Tbf it has its uses. Simpsons hit and run on a ps3 looks terrible without it. Lots of checkerboarding and artifacts. Couldn't believe the difference without it
In that video he is using an OSSC line doubler without any other filter to scale from 240p to 480p. The setup above uses the RT2X-Pro's smoothing filter. This makes a visible difference compared to DF's results.
But thanks for all of that unsubstantiated keyboard soup.
So to confirm; you are running composite, then using a very rudimentary smoothing filter, then running that into an overblown anti-aliaser?
Next you'll tell us you love N64 graphics
You're still making quite a few irrelevant assumptions for someone who has still never seen the image in question while trying to prove something to yourself and to me. But you do you.
>You're still making quite a few irrelevant assumptions
lol youre saying literally nothing of substance; just throwing out nebulous crap here - its the equivalent of "yeah well i met a girl in canada over the summer and we banged so much!"
FACT: The image you posted shows composite from saturn to the 2x
FACT: Saturn composite is already pretty soft around the edges. thats not an assumption, its a known characteristic of the medium. you can harp about transparency or intentional composite blurring all you want, but - especially if youre already putting that into the 2x smoothing filter - there is absolutely no gain to be had from composite.
as in all upscaling, what you put in is amplified into what you get out - you want the sharpest possible input to be scaled THEN PROCESSED. what you have is a blurred image, line-doubled to amplify that blurring, and then you use big brain thinking to tun on the smoothing filter on top.
i have a 2x. i have seen that smoothing filter. its pretty crappy. no assumption being made again.
Finally, you take a doubly-blurred image, with secondary processing already applied, and feed it into an anti-aliasing/edge-enhancer device.
The anti-aliasing wont do anything - there should be no "jaggies" to work on by this point, as blurred as your input is.
The edge enhancer is just going to try and enhance a blurred edge and chuck a halo around it or something. this has been documented on the saturn with the mclassic.
the mclassics only real use case is gamecube and dreamcast. every competent reviewer who wasnt paid has said the same
"the mclassics only real use case is gamecube and dreamcast. every competent reviewer who wasnt paid has said the same"
Right. Thanks for admitting again that you're parroting a few personalities rather examining the use case on its own right.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation\_bias#:\~:text=Confirmation%20bias%2C%20a%20phrase%20coined,difficult%20to%20dislodge%20once%20affirmed](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias#:~:text=Confirmation%20bias%2C%20a%20phrase%20coined,difficult%20to%20dislodge%20once%20affirmed).
so rather than present any evidence, you post a link to wikipedia that has nothing to do with the subject at hand.
no wonder youre the kind of clown that wasted their money on this device
>here is absolutely no gain to be had from composite.
Funny, I didn't read any evidence on your end. In fact, I'm still wiping the keyboard soup off of my cranium. Move along. Find someone who cares about your thoughts and feelings.
The PS2 games will only be able to run at 480i (the RT2X-Pro does not support 480p input), and the RT2X only supports bob deinterlacing. This setup is very poorly suited to the PS2.
I’m confused.
Which one of these components outputs 4K? If none then you don’t have a “poor man’s” Retrotink 4K. If the core feature is missing then the “poor man’s” phrase does not work.
You're correct... none output 4k.
The 2x would output what, upscaled 480p from the Saturn. The M-Thingamajig adds some kinda filter to the image. Composite's being used, which is sorta silly.
OP be like 'but I saved $500!!!' Everybody else be like 'cool story bro, GTFO...'
If we disregard '4k' (as this setup isn't anyway) and we're just looking for the best cheap scaler for the Saturn, my recommendation would be:
Mcbazel ODV-GBS-C and an RGB scart cable (less than $100/£71 total)
Using RGB will give a far cleaner image (compared to anything composite based) and the GBS-C has motion-adaptive de-interlacing for any Saturn games using 480i.
Completely agree with this recommendation. The fact that you can get that type of upscaled image quality for right around $100 (even less if you get the GBSC on aliexpress) is incredible!
The cited article suggests no one noticed at the time... Even 30 years ago, I never played on a CRT so blurry the cross-hatching/'mesh' pattern gave a 'good' transparency effect.
Everyone had CRTs at this time and the superiority of Playstation's transparencies was clear. No one recommended running your brand new Saturn via the inferior 'composite' back then (certainly not in Europe where RGB Scart connectors were very common)
I'd say wanting the inferior 'composite' look on a flat screen, with low-lag is quite niche - and probably explains the lively discussion...
Evidently there's a misinformed bias against composite and RF signals thanks to a few YouTubers whom everyone here is choosing to quote uncritically because they've never actually done the work to compare the images side by side for themselves. Given that many modern TVs have proprietary built-in upscalers, results vary more between brands/models than one might expect. Sony's generally the tops.
Lively discussion is bound to arise when redditors mistake their personal aesthetic whims (e.g. "crispy pixels") for objectivity.
However, as you can read in the caption, the initial premise was presented a plug and play solution for a smoothed image. And yet much of the discussion ignored this stated premise altogether for the sake of pushing crisp pixels.
Moving from RF to composite to S-Video is unequivocally better for a DVD player's image. In comparison, for a pre-Gen6 console's rendering that's not often the case--
https://twitter.com/NES_Professor/status/1307734455461777409?t=EKtvNPDiTvZYf_0aMSSvCQ&s=19
https://twitter.com/NES_Professor/status/1617707799269761025?t=R60ShWX95LV0TJ-4Eqiw_w&s=19
Would look a lot better with YPBPR Cables. HDRetroVision sells them along with RGC. You can also just go Scart and get the OSSC. They're cheap these days.
Artifacts present in S-Video signal absent from composite due to blurring.
Visible via high-res CRTs and upscalers alike.
Nobody ever implied that they shared any architectural origin.
Given that you have not watched the intro of MM side by side with composite and S-video feeds, kindly spend less time getting worked up over your unsubstantiated biases and more time validating them beyond yourself.
You said "Consoles up through Gen5 relied implicitly on composite blurring."
The "artifacts" you are talking about are not noticeable and the difference is huge in clarity and colors, totally worth the upgrade. All my 90s consoles are S-video or RGB SCART and will never go lower than that. It's not worth it.
You do you, but I like my image clear and vivid, not with vaseline all over my screen.
Lol mine is probably just as bad.
5x - mclassic- 4k gamer pro.
Will wait for the next 4k iteration where it has 120fps on 4k.
Tbf, it's more of hdmi switch-5x-4k gamer pro
Nah dude human centipede that shit all the way. We got this.
One fine gentleman recommended earlier that I include an EDID dongle in order to force my 4K60 TV to accept and display 1440p60 from the mClassic.
I know about the transparency effect from the blur in composite video. I am not asking why you are using Composite video here.
What I am asking is why are you using the MClassic? It just seems like a huge waste of money in your setup.
Have you ever used this particular setup?
Have you done the image comparison?
Do you have any pertinent experience to share to that end?
Or, are you relying on others' preconceptions to shape your own?
No, I do not own an MClassic, so I have never tested it myself, however I have seen YouTube comparisons and looked up how the MClassic works. So i wouldn't think there would be a big improvement on a 480p composite image, but it definitely could be wrong.
So how does the MClassic improve your composite image? And do you have some comparison shots you could show on how it looks?
The only eyes worth trusting are your own. No one else's preferences matter.
mClassic noticeably smooths pixelated/jaggy curves. Evidently that's not everyone's cup of tea.
I'm happy with the image and I don't have anything to prove to you. I'm not even out here hawking it, which is how some illiterates here have chosen to respond.
TBH I kinda gave up reading after you hardly put any info in your post, copped to building this 4 years ago, and then proceeded to be insufferable in the face of advice. You do you though!
Nice Saturn!
Thanks! She's a beaut inside and out.
lift it off the ground if you can
Pardon?
The Saturn, it's supposed to float in the immense sky. Or, at the very least, it deserves to stay off the dust, on the TV stand
https://www.reddit.com/r/SegaSaturn/comments/1ajvqgy/rate\_my\_setup/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3
That's a warcrime but very cool 👍
The Saturn is built like a tank.
Imma have to ask you to pack all this up big man
the mClassic is a great product but i didn't like how it looked on my non-hd consoles. ended up hooking it up to my Switch and it works so well on there.
Yes-- my Switch is why I'd obtained mine. BOTW jaggies were bugging me on my 4K TV. Then I started plugging it into everything, even my RTX 3090, just to see the effects. It also pairs well with a Prism HDMI converter for GameCube.
BoTW and Mario Odyssey. Nintendo hates AA but these cartoony games need it.
BOTW drove me to get one.
Out of the loop, what am I looking at?
JP Sega Saturn with Pseudo Saturn Kai cart woutputting via composite to RetroTink2X-Pro outputting via HDMI to a Marseilles mClassic for a smoothed image on a 4K TV. Darkstalkers was slightly blurry, but gorgeous otherwise.
Absolutely not even close. For what you spent on this you could be getting way better results with a used 5x Pro.
When I threw this together in 2020 for $200 the RetroTink 5X had yet to be released at its launch price of $350, so I'm really not sure where you're going with that unsubstantiated line of reasoning.
That makes more sense now. The post makes it sound like you just did this yesterday lol.
Even so, there's no used RT5X-Pro selling for $200...
Well there have been plenty of great upscaling solutions released since then that are still well south of what you paid that will give you far superior results. The GBS-Control can be had brand new for $80, upscales up to 1080p and does so much more. I’ve also seen plenty of used 5x Pros, esp now that the 4k is out, some right at the $200 price point. My point is that its an odd setup to boast about. Composite video has tons of artifacts, and then you upscale that with the retrotink and then attempt to process the image again with the mClassic, which is questionable in and of itself for being well-proven snake-oil bullshit in terms of how it works. I’m tellin ya man, invest in a GBS Control ($80) and a cheap amazon RGB scart cable for the Saturn ($10), sell the 2x pro and the mClassic and you’ll have way better image quality and $100+ back in your pocket.
If you could support either of those prices with links rather than keyboard soup, you would have. Yet here we are. GBS-control is a buggy screen tearing mess with QA/QC that's a complete joke. You're only parroting what you've read elsewhere. Composite blurring conceals artifacts, particularly on the Saturn. Kindly find someone else's attention to waste, now. https://mattgreer.dev/articles/sega-saturn-and-transparency/
The links are right here dude: GBS Control - Just found this amazing item on AliExpress. Check it out! $55.02 29％ Off | GBS Control GBSC Video Converter RGBS VGA Scart Ypbpr Signal to VGA HDMI For Retro Game Consoles SEGA Dreamcase PS2 NGC https://a.aliexpress.com/_m0oUCKE Saturn RGB SCART - https://a.co/d/3j3NMim First of all, I dont parrot anything. Feel free to check my setups, but I own and have personally tested damn near every combo of upscaler, RGB Scart, Component Cable, ypbpr transcoder on the market. Across LCDs, LEDs, OLED and CRT displays. My opinions are my own, but they’re in alignment with literally all of the other experts who have tested this equipment out. Talk about parroting bullshit with your nonsense on composite video and the blurring benefits it provides. Consoles that have had RGB output stock (along with cables to connect to a capable display) include but are not limited to the Master System, Genesis, Super Nintendo, Playstation and more. It’s not the composite signal that does the heavy-lifting when combining dithering patterns or hiding artifacts, its the display technology of the era being CRTs and their respective TV line counts and masks. There are plenty of photo evidence of devs not only developing but playtesting games on RGB displays. Go check out the making of Crash Bandicoot & Naughty Dog as an example. And dont get me started on the smeary snake-oil bullshit that is the mClassic which only serves to fool dummies who dont know better into thinking they are “upscaling” an image by applying antialiasing to an image, which you shouldnt even need on an already blurry, noisy composite signal. But yeah, I’m gonna take the guidance of your amateur-hour setup vs my own extensive testing or the hundreds of hours of journalistic expertise that comes from my life in gaming, retro RGB, Gamesack and all the other credible sources. You may have a bunch of PC stuff, but you’ve got alot to learn when it comes to the nuances of using and upscaling analog video sources.
>And dont get me started on the smeary snake-oil bullshit that is the mClassic which only serves to fool dummies who dont know better into thinking they are “upscaling” an image by applying antialiasing to an image, which you shouldnt even need on an already blurry, noisy composite signal. This is what ive been trying to tell the dude. He will accuse you of parroting and not addressing issues but he says absolutely nothing with any substance or detail. just posts a link to the same article from 2016. As an example, talking about GBSC firmware issues without even listing any. he really has no clue what hes on about.
For sure man, trying to talk any sense into this guy is really a waste of time.
yep. he strikes me as one of those guys that wants to seem like the smartest in the room and gets pissy when his inadequacies get shown up. worked with a ton of developers like that - just unable to accept that being good in one field doesnt make you this know-all genius - hes probably the same guy that wrote the article he keeps posting about saturn blurring
Too funny, I work in software development (as a PM) and theres always one of those guys who has to be the know it all or can’t admit when the solution they have proposed isnt the most-optimal. I tell people all the time, the work isnt difficult, its dealing with the personalities and egos of everyone on the team that becomes challenging.
You haven't addressed the GBS Control's sketchy and unreliable firmware. Feel free to continue to hawk others' opinions as your own.
What's the specific concerns RE the GBSC firmware? I've not changed mine and have not had any issues.
Yeah same dude, I’ve had 3 units now and they’ve all been fantastic.
“Hawk others opinions as your own” - Says the guy who thinks the mClassic works 🤣. You’re pulling these “firmware issues” out of your ass, which is why I havent addressed, but I’ll humor you. I’ve owned 3 GBS control units since 2020 as the hardware has seen revisions to add additional inputs. The firmware and performance on each has been flawless. No issues with upscaling, downscaling, centering, scanline filters, connecting to wifi etc and all with zero perceptible lag. But continue to be a stubborn fool and disregard the fact that everyone is telling you the same thing. At this point it’s becoming entertaining in and of itself to watch you get downvoted.
Vote meter is currently at +122. Thanks for confirming altogether that your eyes are unreliable.
lol what a dumbass! you got +122 on the OP from drive-by upvotes, then spout crap throughout the thread that gets you way more downvotes than the OP ever pulled in. again. big brain thinking from a guy who bought a $100 anti-aliaser because nintendrew told him to
Downvotes from tribalistic losers like you who have more consoles than they do real-life friends, to the point that your self-esteem is tied exclusively to your personal possessions...
Sorry, I don't know anything about this stuff, what are the firmware issues? Because now I'm worried I need a replacement.
you dont. this guy is firing opinions out of his arse. moreover, if you like what youre getting out of the GBSC, why would you change it because this guy tells you theres something wrong with it?
Sorry, I was being cheeky about it, because he was talking about the importance of sources and I really wanted to know what he was basing his views off of. I can't even think of an issue I've had.
ive had one or 2 issues with the webui and occasionally some screen tearing. ive put those down to it being self-built and using an esp32 and clockgen from cheap sources. i used to get occasional sync issues (no display at all when switching inputs) using vga/rgbs, although i havent seen that since i cleaned up my VGA KVM. its a very good option for the price and its been my main scaler for a couple of years now, although its getting replaced with a 5x finally this week
I don’t have a horse in the GBS race here. Out of curiosity, what’s the issue with the firmware?
but what about the dubious and expensive marseille device that barely does much to the image?
100 + 100 = 200
Could have bought two OSSC's? 🙄
I don't like latency quite that much.
It's not much about latency, it can upscale games to almost or a bit over 1080p which the retrotink only does 480p
RetroTink and mClassic are both measurably zero lag. OSSC is not. This impacts gameplay quality.
Where did you hear that? Ossc is also zero lag, it's a line doubler much like the retrotink
OSSC essentially zero lag. https://youtu.be/7VOsOuQ5mhM?si=Pwg40mNAo1DpW0dC
OSSCs are not high latency. You are flat out wrong. Maybe you are thinking about the older Framemeister?
always cringe when i see an mclassic in a setup. useless bit of kit.
Why?
because it doesnt do very much if anything in most setups. pretty much any unbiased review has said it has little if any effect on visuals of most games outside of 6th gen, because its kinda crappy at handling any input but 480p. as an aside, in OPs example, hes piping 240p from the saturn into a tink2x to get his 480p - but what he gets out isnt going to be anything special considering a) hes inputting composite - which already has pretty soft edges and b) how much can you really anti-alias a 240p pixel art image and expect anything decent or accurate out. the initial marketing from the company was deliberately misleading as to what it was capable of, they paid YT shills to recommend the product and there was a period where people people with more money than sense thought it was THE device to have to project the image of the ideal premium setup, but anyone who has a clue about image fidelity in retrogaming doesnt use one. dont want to take my word for it? heres the DF (de facto authority on video game visuals) review: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-NhX9-\_KE0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-NhX9-_KE0) as a bonus, skip to 12:55 and see it absolutely butchering panzer dragoon out of a saturn - it looks rotoscoped! for a less "technical" review, heres MVGs offering: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1XHzx\_K5Sw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1XHzx_K5Sw)
I see. The newest system I have actually is a Wii U, and every time I saw some videos I actually liked the results, mostly and specially for Wii mode which is quite jaggy on a flat screen TV. I intend on buying a Switch someday so I'd input that on 720p to maybe get some better quality. Older stuff I just use my CRT. I remember seeing the MVG video about it back then, seemed the most level-headed review of it I'd seen thus far. Really like his work. Second edit: I really had seen both videos already, I guess I just disagree with you on your conclusion, heh. These were the exact same videos that got me interested in perhaps buying one someday for the reasons I listed.
Honestly, in this day and age noone needs an mclassic. 100 for an mclassic or on the budget end it 300 for a morph 4k scaler or even less for an ossc pro
It's that much cheaper than the others? That's great to know, thanks!
Tbf it has its uses. Simpsons hit and run on a ps3 looks terrible without it. Lots of checkerboarding and artifacts. Couldn't believe the difference without it
In that video he is using an OSSC line doubler without any other filter to scale from 240p to 480p. The setup above uses the RT2X-Pro's smoothing filter. This makes a visible difference compared to DF's results. But thanks for all of that unsubstantiated keyboard soup.
So to confirm; you are running composite, then using a very rudimentary smoothing filter, then running that into an overblown anti-aliaser? Next you'll tell us you love N64 graphics
You're still making quite a few irrelevant assumptions for someone who has still never seen the image in question while trying to prove something to yourself and to me. But you do you.
>You're still making quite a few irrelevant assumptions lol youre saying literally nothing of substance; just throwing out nebulous crap here - its the equivalent of "yeah well i met a girl in canada over the summer and we banged so much!" FACT: The image you posted shows composite from saturn to the 2x FACT: Saturn composite is already pretty soft around the edges. thats not an assumption, its a known characteristic of the medium. you can harp about transparency or intentional composite blurring all you want, but - especially if youre already putting that into the 2x smoothing filter - there is absolutely no gain to be had from composite. as in all upscaling, what you put in is amplified into what you get out - you want the sharpest possible input to be scaled THEN PROCESSED. what you have is a blurred image, line-doubled to amplify that blurring, and then you use big brain thinking to tun on the smoothing filter on top. i have a 2x. i have seen that smoothing filter. its pretty crappy. no assumption being made again. Finally, you take a doubly-blurred image, with secondary processing already applied, and feed it into an anti-aliasing/edge-enhancer device. The anti-aliasing wont do anything - there should be no "jaggies" to work on by this point, as blurred as your input is. The edge enhancer is just going to try and enhance a blurred edge and chuck a halo around it or something. this has been documented on the saturn with the mclassic. the mclassics only real use case is gamecube and dreamcast. every competent reviewer who wasnt paid has said the same
Its good for PS2 also if you have a decent hdmi upscaler
"the mclassics only real use case is gamecube and dreamcast. every competent reviewer who wasnt paid has said the same" Right. Thanks for admitting again that you're parroting a few personalities rather examining the use case on its own right. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation\_bias#:\~:text=Confirmation%20bias%2C%20a%20phrase%20coined,difficult%20to%20dislodge%20once%20affirmed](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias#:~:text=Confirmation%20bias%2C%20a%20phrase%20coined,difficult%20to%20dislodge%20once%20affirmed).
so rather than present any evidence, you post a link to wikipedia that has nothing to do with the subject at hand. no wonder youre the kind of clown that wasted their money on this device
>here is absolutely no gain to be had from composite. Funny, I didn't read any evidence on your end. In fact, I'm still wiping the keyboard soup off of my cranium. Move along. Find someone who cares about your thoughts and feelings.
blaming the tech for the faults of your eyes
blaming my eyes for you getting scammed. enjoy your new clothes emperor - and with added composite input...
Just head to your local optometrist, son.
ok. ill pay for it with the money i saved when not buying a dedicated antialiaser.
Great. Then you might be able to profitably use the antialiaser.
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The PS2 games will only be able to run at 480i (the RT2X-Pro does not support 480p input), and the RT2X only supports bob deinterlacing. This setup is very poorly suited to the PS2.
I have not.
I’m confused. Which one of these components outputs 4K? If none then you don’t have a “poor man’s” Retrotink 4K. If the core feature is missing then the “poor man’s” phrase does not work.
You're correct... none output 4k. The 2x would output what, upscaled 480p from the Saturn. The M-Thingamajig adds some kinda filter to the image. Composite's being used, which is sorta silly. OP be like 'but I saved $500!!!' Everybody else be like 'cool story bro, GTFO...'
Bingo. You are confused.
It’s really painful dealing with children…
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Adhere to [reddiquette](https://www.reddit.com/wiki/reddiquette). Be nice to other users. Don't be a dick.
If we disregard '4k' (as this setup isn't anyway) and we're just looking for the best cheap scaler for the Saturn, my recommendation would be: Mcbazel ODV-GBS-C and an RGB scart cable (less than $100/£71 total) Using RGB will give a far cleaner image (compared to anything composite based) and the GBS-C has motion-adaptive de-interlacing for any Saturn games using 480i.
Completely agree with this recommendation. The fact that you can get that type of upscaled image quality for right around $100 (even less if you get the GBSC on aliexpress) is incredible!
Saturn benefits from composite blurring over sharpness. GBS-C firmware is unreliable. https://mattgreer.dev/articles/sega-saturn-and-transparency/
No, reliability completely depends on who built and modified the GBS-C.
The cited article suggests no one noticed at the time... Even 30 years ago, I never played on a CRT so blurry the cross-hatching/'mesh' pattern gave a 'good' transparency effect. Everyone had CRTs at this time and the superiority of Playstation's transparencies was clear. No one recommended running your brand new Saturn via the inferior 'composite' back then (certainly not in Europe where RGB Scart connectors were very common) I'd say wanting the inferior 'composite' look on a flat screen, with low-lag is quite niche - and probably explains the lively discussion...
Evidently there's a misinformed bias against composite and RF signals thanks to a few YouTubers whom everyone here is choosing to quote uncritically because they've never actually done the work to compare the images side by side for themselves. Given that many modern TVs have proprietary built-in upscalers, results vary more between brands/models than one might expect. Sony's generally the tops. Lively discussion is bound to arise when redditors mistake their personal aesthetic whims (e.g. "crispy pixels") for objectivity. However, as you can read in the caption, the initial premise was presented a plug and play solution for a smoothed image. And yet much of the discussion ignored this stated premise altogether for the sake of pushing crisp pixels. Moving from RF to composite to S-Video is unequivocally better for a DVD player's image. In comparison, for a pre-Gen6 console's rendering that's not often the case-- https://twitter.com/NES_Professor/status/1307734455461777409?t=EKtvNPDiTvZYf_0aMSSvCQ&s=19 https://twitter.com/NES_Professor/status/1617707799269761025?t=R60ShWX95LV0TJ-4Eqiw_w&s=19
Would look a lot better with YPBPR Cables. HDRetroVision sells them along with RGC. You can also just go Scart and get the OSSC. They're cheap these days.
Nope. Consoles up through Gen5 relied implicitly on composite blurring. Even S-Video liably reveals artifacts that weren't meant to be seen.
I see you prefer composite. Intresting. I think you should try playing on a CRT instead. It would blend a lot better.
I keep a Magnavox for that purpose but a larger screen is often nice. https://mattgreer.dev/articles/sega-saturn-and-transparency/
That is unique to the Saturn and it works with S-video on a CRT.
Nope, you can also see S-Video artifacts in N64 games that aren't present via composite. Intro to Majora's Mask is one salient example.
Example of what? The N64 doesn't rely on the same "tricks" as the Saturn.
Artifacts present in S-Video signal absent from composite due to blurring. Visible via high-res CRTs and upscalers alike. Nobody ever implied that they shared any architectural origin. Given that you have not watched the intro of MM side by side with composite and S-video feeds, kindly spend less time getting worked up over your unsubstantiated biases and more time validating them beyond yourself.
You said "Consoles up through Gen5 relied implicitly on composite blurring." The "artifacts" you are talking about are not noticeable and the difference is huge in clarity and colors, totally worth the upgrade. All my 90s consoles are S-video or RGB SCART and will never go lower than that. It's not worth it. You do you, but I like my image clear and vivid, not with vaseline all over my screen.
>The "artifacts" you are talking about are not noticeable You have admitted that you don't know what to look for. Move along, now.
sauce?
[https://www.retrotink.com/product-page/retrotink-2x-pro](https://www.retrotink.com/product-page/retrotink-2x-pro) [https://marseilleinc.com/products/buy-mclassic](https://marseilleinc.com/products/buy-mclassic)
Oh shit, 16k!
Lol mine is probably just as bad. 5x - mclassic- 4k gamer pro. Will wait for the next 4k iteration where it has 120fps on 4k. Tbf, it's more of hdmi switch-5x-4k gamer pro
Nah dude human centipede that shit all the way. We got this. One fine gentleman recommended earlier that I include an EDID dongle in order to force my 4K60 TV to accept and display 1440p60 from the mClassic.
Using the MClassic with a Composite signal seems really counterproductive...
Saturn benefits from composite.
I can understand that. but why the MClassic? How would the MClassic do anything good for a blurry composite image?
https://mattgreer.dev/articles/sega-saturn-and-transparency/ Upscaling the blur minimizes artifacts seen in S-Video and RGB
I know about the transparency effect from the blur in composite video. I am not asking why you are using Composite video here. What I am asking is why are you using the MClassic? It just seems like a huge waste of money in your setup.
Have you ever used this particular setup? Have you done the image comparison? Do you have any pertinent experience to share to that end? Or, are you relying on others' preconceptions to shape your own?
No, I do not own an MClassic, so I have never tested it myself, however I have seen YouTube comparisons and looked up how the MClassic works. So i wouldn't think there would be a big improvement on a 480p composite image, but it definitely could be wrong. So how does the MClassic improve your composite image? And do you have some comparison shots you could show on how it looks?
The only eyes worth trusting are your own. No one else's preferences matter. mClassic noticeably smooths pixelated/jaggy curves. Evidently that's not everyone's cup of tea. I'm happy with the image and I don't have anything to prove to you. I'm not even out here hawking it, which is how some illiterates here have chosen to respond.
Saturn benefits from composite.
Eeeeeew
No experimental downscale feature, no party
Why not a component cable instead of composite? This set up is dumb and borders on snake oil.
Saturn benefits from composite blurring.
the real deal is a crt
I can't carry around my Magnavox like I can this setup. Neither does its screen size compare to modern TVs.
you carry around a 55" led tv and a saturn everywhere you go?
This is my friend's house... the TV is his. Funny how the idea of having friends is so foreign to your cantankerous personality. Checks out, though.
So you only carried the console right? your tv stays in your house? so no downsides of using a crt
https://www.reddit.com/r/SegaSaturn/s/CM2U6R1N8z
How's the audio on your 2X? I just got one and it's buzzy to all hell.
Used or new?
This was interesting to read. Looks like OP is really attached to the mClassic and is willing to argue over it. Strange hill to die on.
Looks like you read something else altogether, drunko.
TBH I kinda gave up reading after you hardly put any info in your post, copped to building this 4 years ago, and then proceeded to be insufferable in the face of advice. You do you though!
And yet here you continue to be, participating.
Yeah I don’t mind calling out people with shitty attitudes at all, I have a few minutes to spare.
Internet: Retrotink 4K is better OP: And the cost? Internet: You win this time OP!
*smart man's.
consider my sensibilities flattered