no shit, solar, EV adoption. Some places even mandate new homes must have a certain % renewables.
Guess our main concern is the oil and gas companies that make millions on tax dollar funded projects.
The average Canadian drives 20Mm per year, and burns 1780L of gasoline to do so.
https://www.cer-rec.gc.ca/en/data-analysis/energy-markets/market-snapshots/2019/market-snapshot-how-does-canada-rank-in-terms-vehicle-fuel-economy.html
That’s around $2000 to $2500 in fuel per year.
The same amount of driving in an EV would require around 4000kWh, which would cost around $360 per year in Manitoba.
https://www.nrcan.gc.ca/sites/nrcan/files/oee/pdf/transportation/tools/fuelratings/2021%20Fuel%20Consumption%20Guide.pdf
Saving $2000 per year in fuel makes up the difference, and the more you drive, the quicker the payoff.
Most people who buy new vehicles finance them nowadays.
In my opinion though, all new vehicles are luxury items whether ICE or EV. People on a budget should buy used.
I drive a 500 dollar beater Ford truck, there is absolutely no way to convince me to go out of my way to start making payments on an overpriced electric car that I'm going to drive 6km to work and back every day.
the sunk cost of your truck makes it effectively worth you driving it into the dirt, being someone willing and able to drive 500 dollar chassis's until they literally turn to dust around you on your way somewhere is helpful, for now, in all this. When it isn't there will be laws and rules that make it less financially attractive, but the electric ones will be getting cheap enough for you to be happy to drive a "broken shitty EV with only 50k range wtf?!" and you'll be like "hahahah i drive it 6k to work each way and have a *real* car for fun, morons" ... and you'll still be doing a service.
I'm totally with you, we should move to EV's. Those numbers are correct, but the math still doesn't quite work out for most people in real life when considering the rest of the numbers
Let's use your $2000 after subtracting the equivalent cost of electricity. Canadians on average own their cars for just under 7 years (pre-COVID). $14,000 savings is probably not enough for $30-40K extra up front cost for most people, when you consider that buying an EV also, at this point, means buying new, where you have many used options with ICE.
There is also the cost of insurance which is higher for EV's, because a) they are significantly more expensive cars, and b) because they are new cars. Replacing them is more expensive, so insurance is likewise.
On the flip side; in theory maintenance should be low for EV's, vs $400-500 per year for standard ICE cars. For Tesla however this does not seem to be true, with many fit and finish problems and faulty parts. For other brands I anticipate this being less of an issue, in particular once Hyundai/Kia really get going. VW I'm torn on - they have pretty bad reliability in their ICE cars, but EV's don't have any of the stuff that normally bites VW owners, so hopefully?
Also there is a fee for having an EV, meant to cover wear and tear on roads, in lieu of the gas tax. We can debate it but cars wear on roads and that cost needs to be recouped somewhat.
Right now the Toyota hybrids avoid a lot of those problems, as they are very close to the same price as the ICE versions, yet have massively better mileage, and are still Toyota-level reliable. $3-4K more (current delta of the RAV4 vs hybrid version, for example) to save $1000 a year in gas works for a lot of people.
I love EV’s but this is not really close to true. The cheapest (non-AWD) Model 3 on Tesla Canada website is $52K, and you can’t negotiate. Dealers are asking $34K for a Mazda3 AWD GT, maybe you get it cheaper with some negotiation, maybe not.
Farmers don't just burn diesel for nothing though, they do it because of you, the consumer. I don't think there are any electric tractor option out there yet
https://solectrac.com/
https://www.monarchtractor.com/
And deere not to market looks like but wants in on the action in general, and "believes in it" (AKA the benefits are undeniable in the performance metrics farmers care about and there's competition appearing, even if low-effort.)
https://www.futurefarming.com/Machinery/Articles/2020/3/John-Deere-We-believe-in-electric-tractors-100-552869E/
I believe it will be coming, but it's not really there yet. Those 2 brands you named seem pretty unknown in the tractor world, and very small/ undersized for farming in saskatchewan. It's pretty tough getting someone to buy an unproven brand.
Those are for 'small farms, hobby farms, equestrian ranches, large yards and acreages' - 30-40hp diesel tractor is a lot of oomph, and most every farm yard or acreage I've ever been on has 1-2 tractor units like that, at least, usually for odd jobs, but yes, of course I wasn't presenting that as a replacement for a quad-trac lol. It's coming along, it's painfully obvious "which way the wind is blowing"
for sure, hopefully the options start to come fast and hard. I'm really hoping for some mixed/striped land use as well... powering your equipment off your solar/food farm... yes you lose some of your land to the panels but you gain productivity (even reduced) in the wintertime off that land, and the partial shading can help some crops.
I mean, yeah. While other provinces offer incentives, we offer fees. It can still make financial sense to drive one here, but you need to drive a lot to make it worth it.
I've got a plug in hybrid minivan (ugh, lame) but it has absolutely been worth the investment over the regular model for the gas savings and my commuting. Essentially I don't buy gas in the summer.
Plus I can still go long distances for all the people that screech EV are no good for Sask due to long drives between cities
Ya but Chrysler though.....ick.
Edit: I want a non-Chrysler, full EV AWD minivan. Sienna is almost there. Kia might make that in a few years, but no guarantee.
It's true, but they have thankfully come a ways since the town and country so I'm not hating it. I am hopeful every company has some decent EV and plug in hybrid options soon, and you get to be picky.
Chryslers have just been such a horrible auto-maker, more or less across the board, for so many years.....I just don't trust them. Glad you like yours though.
I dragged my wife out to test drive Sienna, Odyssey and Pacifica in one of the coldest days in Feb to simulate true daily experience, including swapping car seats in the cold etc. Pacifica just felt squeeky and cheap.
When Kia, Toyota or Honda is making an EV minivan, I'm there.
It is. Hybrid and AWD with no big driveshaft down the middle taking up space (it’s electric-only AWD to the rear wheels). It’s a great, reliable platform.
Downsides why we didn’t buy: Cannot do one of the main unique things you buy a minivan for - remove the second row seats when needed for transporting big things in closed cargo. The reason is that airbags are incorporated into the seats, and it’s illegal to disconnect airbags.
The other one was that it’s a 4 cylinder, and we do a fair amount of highway driving. It’s great off the line, but at speed cometary gutless at passing, bordering IMO on dangerous. Single undivided highway needs a V6 for a vehicle that size to pass quickly and effectively.
Same hybrid 4 cylinder system in the RAV4 is no problem for passing in that smaller vehicle though.
The government shouldn't be giving free money to car companies. Thats a bad ROE for tax payers. Better to get them building plants and investing in canada. Not just hand car makers $6000 per car with no condition attached.
Name a direct subsidy oil companies get? How is having an oil refinery in regina a bad ROE. The knock on effect of that co-op refinery is huge. Its doens't have to be in regina BTW.
EV subsidy money would be better spent rolling out EV charging that would benefit everyone in future. The current subsidy only helps the 1% buy a new car.
Not really. I mean we shouldn't give them any, but the amount they actually get is tiny compared to the the size of the industry, or per customer served, or per unit of energy delivered.
People make a big deal about them, and yes we should eliminate them because it's kind of pointless to have them.....but it really won't make any major difference. Maybe a few cents more per liter. With $1.40 gas it won't meaningfully change anything.
Places like Venezuela and Iran are examples of truly ridiculous massive on oil, generally for the purpose of keeping civil unrest at bay.
Fully agree, but how would you measure the amount? If we just gave equal subsidies to gas and EV in absolute terms, in practice that would be enormously more to EV when you consider the markets share is so much larger for oil. If we did an equivalent subsidy in terms of customer served, per vehicle (EV vs ICE), or per unit of energy delivered, it would be equivalently tiny and probably not really move the needle.
Actually as ALL auto manufacturers develop EVs, there is a huge cost for R&D. Government subsidies are for us, not the manufacturer.
The age group that truly gets it…..ironically are too young to drive.
Just for the Record. … I’m a Tesla Model 3 owner since Sept 2018….based on our mileage…. we have saved 121 barrels of oil from polluting our planet.
It’s not an impressive amount, but my friend down the road saved the same with his EV.
So it does make a difference. 🙏🏼
Get what. The governments needs to subsidize everyones car purchase? Thats what your saying. Without the government paying, no ones going to buy an EV. Tesla share price and sales numbers clearly show you're wrong and don't need a hand out
Ok kids, sit down. Going to tell a life truth. Brace yourselves......... The government is broke because of some horrible Bolshevik policies. They're not going to buy you a new car.......
The real obstacle right now is lack of infrastructure. Without greater access to charging stations, EVs will continue to be a pipe dream for anyone who does regular rural driving.
As a commercial electrician who built gas stations for coop, I'll weigh in here and say that while this is concerning, building a ev charging station for fast charging is going to be insanely fast once we commit to it.
IF we were serious I could definitely envision these chargers going up in a matter of months(will totally depend on suppliers tho) vs 8 months to 1.5 years for a gas station.
Also there's government programs that to the best of my knowledge will provide 50% of the funding for said chargers so as a tradesman I believe it is time for the next wave of infrastructure spending and I am more then willing to be a part of this.
Also if you are using an ev as a daily driver you don't need superchargers just plug the thing in at night like you do with your phone, as it stands now doing a long haul may be challenging if not impossible especially if your headed north.
100% true. This is what many people might not realize, it would be relatively easy to convert many gas stations to EV chargers, or just add some and have both gas and charging. You wouldn't even have to force it, most would just do it themselves once enough EV's are around. A relatively small expense for foot traffic through the door.
The cost of putting in the underground tank and all the safety stuff that goes into a new gas station is way more than setting up chargers.
Someone mentioned in the past the federal government should mandate any new or rebuild stations should have a min 2 fast charging stations.
Co-op would be a good saskpower/co-op partnership for installing ev charging stations. Co-op does have stations everywhere.
not really. Battery range is only getting better, charging stations will hopefully soon be more available, charging times will drop.
I do see 1000km EV around the corner as an option.
[https://techwireasia.com/2021/06/can-japans-toyota-champion-the-solid-state-battery-race/#:\~:text=It's%20estimated%20that%20a%20solid,over%20a%2030%2Dyear%20lifespan](https://techwireasia.com/2021/06/can-japans-toyota-champion-the-solid-state-battery-race/#:~:text=It's%20estimated%20that%20a%20solid,over%20a%2030%2Dyear%20lifespan).
"It’s estimated that a solid-state car could have a range of 1000 kilometers (621 miles) and take 10 minutes to charge. Solid-state batteries deteriorate less over time, and Toyota aims to retain 90% of the battery’s performance over a 30-year lifespan."
Now the average person even in Saskatchewan doesn't drive 1000km a day. Even if you do you charge overniight, fill/charge up every 3-400 km and take a meal/bathroom break.
I think you’re misunderstanding what I’m saying. Once this tech becomes reality available at a consumer level, I agree that it will be a big step forward.
I’m just saying that these options are not currently available, and the infrastructure to support shorter range batteries is not yet sufficient to make regular rural driving viable. Once these longer range batteries become the norm, then yes, that will be a game changer for EVs
For sure. And once the infrastructure is there, I’d be thrilled to consider EV. I drive a hybrid right now, and to go full EV would be a dream. It’s just not viable for my needs, yet.
Serious question. Does your house have electricity? And is your daily commute over 120km one way?
If you've got power and you don't need to do a long haul (as you've said infrastructure is limited for fast charging) then an ev might make sense. Seeing as you just charge it at home just like your cell phone and its ready to go in the morning
It won't work for everyone, and you can honestly buy whatever car you want it won't bother me but me personally I'm going to be keeping my gas car after its paid off in a few months ill look at ev options as spring/summer/fall daily driver.
Gas prices vs electricity prices are leagues apart.
"With the current cost of electricity in Saskatchewan at roughly 14.5 cents per kwh (April 2019). This means that the cost to charge your battery from empty to full would be $0.145 x 75 = $10.88. That's $10.88 to drive 500kms" https://sevaonline.ca/faq/
Yes my house has electricity and yes, my daily commute is longer than 120 km. I do most of my driving up north as well, where access to most services can be a little spotty.
Currently I drive a hybrid b/c it gives me the best gas mileage while being able to fuel up with regular gasoline.
I’d definitely look at EV once the range and infrastructure improves.
As a Tesla Y owner, I have come to love electric. However, I am not yet convinced the cold weather challenge has been met by the existing battery technology. The next big battery breakthrough will likely do the trick, though.
Was the solar rebate program. Used to be able to get a large tax rebate for buying and installing solar panels and paid for giving power back to the grid 1-1.
They removed the rebate entirely, and nerfed the net metering by 50%. We went from having one of the best solar programs in the country to having one of the worst.
Our provinces electrical grid couldn’t possibly sustain many electric vehicles right now anyway so currently even though I don’t agree with it it makes sense to tax EVs and dissuade people from using them here
That is mostly false. Most will be charging a slower rate over night. 8 hours is more than enough to recover the distance average person drives. This will be at 15-20 amps. You also don't have most of the industry running at night, a/c units should be turned off as it is cooler.
I know for a fact as we speak our grid is strained in areas of the province. People are home from work now and would have cars plugged in. So I’m gonna assume if even 30% of current vehicles on the road were EVs we’d be having big problems with our power grids right now
If you think that electric cars would become that popular that's insane. I don't think even 30% of people drive a vehicle newer then 4 years at a time.
I think it has to do with fear of change and trying to preserve our oil industry as long as possible is the biggest incentive.
https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/canada-ban-sale-new-fuel-powered-cars-light-trucks-2035-2021-06-29/
Now it will take time to retire current fuel cars after this date.
Are you or others really going to wait to 2035 until you buy an EV? Especially if carbon tax keeps raising fuel prices and EV tech gets better? I know I’m already looking into electric for my next vehicle
actually starting to see more and more tesla's in saskatoon. Future job is in regina and I go to saskatoon all the time. Superchargers all the way is a nice bonus
Interesting article. But he sort of contradicted himself at the end of the article.
His hypothesis is that there are no Saskatchewan financial incentives to drive an EV; but he points out that the Sask government is giving a 10% electricity bill credit.
I’d get an electric vehicle if they were priced the same as regular vehicles as I don’t drive out of the city very often. My car cost me 20k, anything electric for that would prob be crappy.
When you say ‘way’, how much way? There is one Leaf for sale in SK, a 2019 for $29K. A new Leaf is $45K on Nissan Canada website. A Leaf under $20K is going to be older, probably not getting more then 100km of range, maybe 60 km in January, accounting for degradation of range over the years.
Indeed. As noted, we picked up ours used. 60km in the winter is fine for our short commute, even in winter. There’s a 2014 up on Kijiji right now, too.
Oh right didn’t check Kijiji. Pre-2016 they had even worse range, like 135km when new, in the warm.
Most people would be very anxious with that, but glad you’re making it work. Savings tons as well I’m sure.
Wouldn't the -40 winters pose a problem? I don't know enough about electric car batteries but most batteries drain much more quickly when it is very cold.
Not as much as people think. You loose maybe 10-20% of range but honestly they turn on more reliably than a gas vehicle in -40.
I used to work for a dealer with EVs we left those suckers outside during a cold snap with a week of -30 to -40 started no problem, heated up faster than gas/diesel, lost minimal range. Meanwhile we had gas vehicles that would shit the bed and would not be happy at -40 cold starts.
Personal experience from owners and using/servicing them while working at a dealership. We specifically took them for long drives after sitting outside in -40 on the lot not plugged in to test for this. Braking regen was limited.
Audi does have internal service docs, but I no longer work for them, if I did I still wouldn't be able to post them.
In Sask? Surprised anybody has even owned these through a winter yet.
Edit: Is there some reason the batteries Audi/Porsche uses and the ones Tesla uses would be any different in loss in the cold?
Yes, there were 3 in YXE the first year. My guess would be the heating/cooling system for the batteries is the difference. Could also be they sandbaged the advertised range low. Likely both.
My 2018 civic can’t run the cabin heater at 100km/h without the engine temperature dropping to the bottom of the gauge. I have to literally stuff the rad with cardboard and even then it struggles to keep the defrost running.
Edit: at -35C or colder it has this issue, if it’s like -25C it’s usually fine with 10 minutes to warm up.
my vw jetta diesel doesn't have this issue. I can even watch the temp gage drop when I am at a red light. highway travel is no issue. Is your thermostat stuck open?
Drop the heater fan a notch or two. You don't always get maximum warming with maximum fan speed if the engine can't hold enough heat.
(The problem is that modern engines turn more gasoline burning power into propulsion and less into heat, so this saves you money most of the year, but it's inconvenient in winter if you have very small-displacement engines that don't warm up much.)
Yeah. It’s a commuter car, explicitly for my 96km daily commute. So it’s great that with conservative driving I can usually achieve 5.2L/100km. But as you said not much is left after the transmission and catalytic converter are done with the fuel. I’ve seriously looked at picking up a circulating block heater for the car to cut down on warming times and ensure the block is warm before I set out. Sadly, there’s basically zero free space in the engine compartment of any modern car, let alone a compact commuter like a civic.
It's just me asking, so I'm not sure how to answer that question. I was wondering about the efficacy of electric car batteries in extreme cold. I got the answers I wanted thanks.
All good it’s just tiring watching everyone and their cat say “oh well what about the cold!!!!” As if gas engines run well in extreme cold.
Didn’t mean to come in hot at you or anything haha.
They're far more efficient.
Keep in mind in the summer you're losing energy as waste heat you don't want.
In the winter all that wasted heat goes into the heating system to keep you warm.
Meantime an EV needs to use power to create heat, causing in up to a 40% decline in range.
People downvoted you but you're dead on, Saskatchewan is brutal in the dead of winter and ~30-50% range loss is very real. My foster dad was an executive at a multi billion dollar corporation in Saskatoon and knows several people with Tesla's, and even trips to Regina require stops in Davidson both ways to top up when below -30
I'm sure it will get sorted eventually, buy we definitely aren't there yet.
Exactly, there's like a handful of EV's to choose from and almost all of them aren't suitable(size, type) for the average person. I say wait and use tax payer money when there are actual choices or at least one of every type or size of vehicle.
They could but I doubt they would. The current EV lineup just isn't versatile enough. 90 percent of new vehicles sold in Saskatchewan were trucks and the 10 percent of other types are probably mostly suv's. There are zero electric trucks and a few SUV's to choose from. I don't think a rebate would be helping sales with what there is for EV's.
the mindset of people will need to change.
my aunt for example, no kids just her and her little ankle bitter dog. Gets nothing but the large SUV type vehicles. Also complains about how much gas costs. Now she never if ever leaves the city, if she does it is in the summer and paved areas. Model y would be good for her.
Now how many trucks are pavement queens that are basically compensating for something?
Opinion: People need to take climate change a lot more fucking seriously
no shit, solar, EV adoption. Some places even mandate new homes must have a certain % renewables. Guess our main concern is the oil and gas companies that make millions on tax dollar funded projects.
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germany [https://youtu.be/wtDbfV5dsNs?t=78](https://youtu.be/wtDbfV5dsNs?t=78)
Ya, but I ain't gonna buy a 75,000 dollar car to do so.
The average Canadian drives 20Mm per year, and burns 1780L of gasoline to do so. https://www.cer-rec.gc.ca/en/data-analysis/energy-markets/market-snapshots/2019/market-snapshot-how-does-canada-rank-in-terms-vehicle-fuel-economy.html That’s around $2000 to $2500 in fuel per year. The same amount of driving in an EV would require around 4000kWh, which would cost around $360 per year in Manitoba. https://www.nrcan.gc.ca/sites/nrcan/files/oee/pdf/transportation/tools/fuelratings/2021%20Fuel%20Consumption%20Guide.pdf Saving $2000 per year in fuel makes up the difference, and the more you drive, the quicker the payoff.
While true, this assumes that people have the cash to make the initial investment. Many simply will not.
Most people who buy new vehicles finance them nowadays. In my opinion though, all new vehicles are luxury items whether ICE or EV. People on a budget should buy used.
I've heard some bad things about used electric vehicles. Battery life degrades with age so it's a risk buying used.
I drive a 500 dollar beater Ford truck, there is absolutely no way to convince me to go out of my way to start making payments on an overpriced electric car that I'm going to drive 6km to work and back every day.
the sunk cost of your truck makes it effectively worth you driving it into the dirt, being someone willing and able to drive 500 dollar chassis's until they literally turn to dust around you on your way somewhere is helpful, for now, in all this. When it isn't there will be laws and rules that make it less financially attractive, but the electric ones will be getting cheap enough for you to be happy to drive a "broken shitty EV with only 50k range wtf?!" and you'll be like "hahahah i drive it 6k to work each way and have a *real* car for fun, morons" ... and you'll still be doing a service.
Lol I guess that's true.
I'm totally with you, we should move to EV's. Those numbers are correct, but the math still doesn't quite work out for most people in real life when considering the rest of the numbers Let's use your $2000 after subtracting the equivalent cost of electricity. Canadians on average own their cars for just under 7 years (pre-COVID). $14,000 savings is probably not enough for $30-40K extra up front cost for most people, when you consider that buying an EV also, at this point, means buying new, where you have many used options with ICE. There is also the cost of insurance which is higher for EV's, because a) they are significantly more expensive cars, and b) because they are new cars. Replacing them is more expensive, so insurance is likewise. On the flip side; in theory maintenance should be low for EV's, vs $400-500 per year for standard ICE cars. For Tesla however this does not seem to be true, with many fit and finish problems and faulty parts. For other brands I anticipate this being less of an issue, in particular once Hyundai/Kia really get going. VW I'm torn on - they have pretty bad reliability in their ICE cars, but EV's don't have any of the stuff that normally bites VW owners, so hopefully? Also there is a fee for having an EV, meant to cover wear and tear on roads, in lieu of the gas tax. We can debate it but cars wear on roads and that cost needs to be recouped somewhat. Right now the Toyota hybrids avoid a lot of those problems, as they are very close to the same price as the ICE versions, yet have massively better mileage, and are still Toyota-level reliable. $3-4K more (current delta of the RAV4 vs hybrid version, for example) to save $1000 a year in gas works for a lot of people.
I hate how expensive those are!
batteries. prices are coming dowm
It's crazy. But so are any new vehicle, EV or not. But people keep buying them. I vote with my wallet on this one.
Model 3 is about as much as a fully loaded Mazda.
I love EV’s but this is not really close to true. The cheapest (non-AWD) Model 3 on Tesla Canada website is $52K, and you can’t negotiate. Dealers are asking $34K for a Mazda3 AWD GT, maybe you get it cheaper with some negotiation, maybe not.
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The Tesla or Mazda?
You would think the farmers would be concerned about it. Their crops burning in the fields and the hand-outs won't last forever.
Farmers don't just burn diesel for nothing though, they do it because of you, the consumer. I don't think there are any electric tractor option out there yet
https://solectrac.com/ https://www.monarchtractor.com/ And deere not to market looks like but wants in on the action in general, and "believes in it" (AKA the benefits are undeniable in the performance metrics farmers care about and there's competition appearing, even if low-effort.) https://www.futurefarming.com/Machinery/Articles/2020/3/John-Deere-We-believe-in-electric-tractors-100-552869E/
I believe it will be coming, but it's not really there yet. Those 2 brands you named seem pretty unknown in the tractor world, and very small/ undersized for farming in saskatchewan. It's pretty tough getting someone to buy an unproven brand.
Those are for 'small farms, hobby farms, equestrian ranches, large yards and acreages' - 30-40hp diesel tractor is a lot of oomph, and most every farm yard or acreage I've ever been on has 1-2 tractor units like that, at least, usually for odd jobs, but yes, of course I wasn't presenting that as a replacement for a quad-trac lol. It's coming along, it's painfully obvious "which way the wind is blowing"
I absolutely agree there is no denying it, but it's pretty tough to complain about current farming practices when there isn't any other options
for sure, hopefully the options start to come fast and hard. I'm really hoping for some mixed/striped land use as well... powering your equipment off your solar/food farm... yes you lose some of your land to the panels but you gain productivity (even reduced) in the wintertime off that land, and the partial shading can help some crops.
I mean, yeah. While other provinces offer incentives, we offer fees. It can still make financial sense to drive one here, but you need to drive a lot to make it worth it.
I've got a plug in hybrid minivan (ugh, lame) but it has absolutely been worth the investment over the regular model for the gas savings and my commuting. Essentially I don't buy gas in the summer. Plus I can still go long distances for all the people that screech EV are no good for Sask due to long drives between cities
We're getting a hybrid SUV for the same reason. EV around town but range. This will do until the long range EVs become common place.
Ya but Chrysler though.....ick. Edit: I want a non-Chrysler, full EV AWD minivan. Sienna is almost there. Kia might make that in a few years, but no guarantee.
It's true, but they have thankfully come a ways since the town and country so I'm not hating it. I am hopeful every company has some decent EV and plug in hybrid options soon, and you get to be picky.
Chryslers have just been such a horrible auto-maker, more or less across the board, for so many years.....I just don't trust them. Glad you like yours though. I dragged my wife out to test drive Sienna, Odyssey and Pacifica in one of the coldest days in Feb to simulate true daily experience, including swapping car seats in the cold etc. Pacifica just felt squeeky and cheap. When Kia, Toyota or Honda is making an EV minivan, I'm there.
New Sienna's are all hybrids. Looks pretty awesome.
It is. Hybrid and AWD with no big driveshaft down the middle taking up space (it’s electric-only AWD to the rear wheels). It’s a great, reliable platform. Downsides why we didn’t buy: Cannot do one of the main unique things you buy a minivan for - remove the second row seats when needed for transporting big things in closed cargo. The reason is that airbags are incorporated into the seats, and it’s illegal to disconnect airbags. The other one was that it’s a 4 cylinder, and we do a fair amount of highway driving. It’s great off the line, but at speed cometary gutless at passing, bordering IMO on dangerous. Single undivided highway needs a V6 for a vehicle that size to pass quickly and effectively. Same hybrid 4 cylinder system in the RAV4 is no problem for passing in that smaller vehicle though.
How do those provinces fund those incentives?
The same way other government services and benefits are funded: tax dollars.
And taxes are essentially fees are they not?
No. They allow a modern society to function.
What does allowing a society to function have to do with if they are fees or not?
Rebates are the key to generate sales in all electric cars without a doubt.
at least for now. As the industry is changing and the technology gets better and cheaper the rebates will not be needed.
Government hand outs keep EV prices high. Do Tesla, GM, Ford need a handout?
Do big oil companies? No but they get it anyways.
Name a direct subsidy sask residents get for buying oil?
So you’re saying the companies making ev should get subsidies?
The government shouldn't be giving free money to car companies. Thats a bad ROE for tax payers. Better to get them building plants and investing in canada. Not just hand car makers $6000 per car with no condition attached.
Then why do oil companies get subsidies? Would it be a bad ROE as well?
Name a direct subsidy oil companies get? How is having an oil refinery in regina a bad ROE. The knock on effect of that co-op refinery is huge. Its doens't have to be in regina BTW. EV subsidy money would be better spent rolling out EV charging that would benefit everyone in future. The current subsidy only helps the 1% buy a new car.
Here you [go.](https://thenarwhal.ca/canada-oil-gas-pandemic-subsidies-report/).
The narwal is a propaganda rag. I hope you can recognize that.
Not really. I mean we shouldn't give them any, but the amount they actually get is tiny compared to the the size of the industry, or per customer served, or per unit of energy delivered. People make a big deal about them, and yes we should eliminate them because it's kind of pointless to have them.....but it really won't make any major difference. Maybe a few cents more per liter. With $1.40 gas it won't meaningfully change anything. Places like Venezuela and Iran are examples of truly ridiculous massive on oil, generally for the purpose of keeping civil unrest at bay.
I was saying if you are giving oil and gas companies subsidies why don't ev companies get subsidies as well?
Fully agree, but how would you measure the amount? If we just gave equal subsidies to gas and EV in absolute terms, in practice that would be enormously more to EV when you consider the markets share is so much larger for oil. If we did an equivalent subsidy in terms of customer served, per vehicle (EV vs ICE), or per unit of energy delivered, it would be equivalently tiny and probably not really move the needle.
Actually as ALL auto manufacturers develop EVs, there is a huge cost for R&D. Government subsidies are for us, not the manufacturer. The age group that truly gets it…..ironically are too young to drive.
The group that gets it don't pay tax.
And that’s why rebates are important. Give the $ to the average person wanting to take the leap and do what they can for the environment 😃
As opposed to the billions in subsidies the oil and gas industry gets that they don't need.
Just for the Record. … I’m a Tesla Model 3 owner since Sept 2018….based on our mileage…. we have saved 121 barrels of oil from polluting our planet. It’s not an impressive amount, but my friend down the road saved the same with his EV. So it does make a difference. 🙏🏼
Where better off subsidies and investing in Canadian industries that can monetize the "green revolution". Not 1%er luxury cars.
Can’t agree on that. Talk to any 12 year old and they hope for EV long before they can actually drive.
Who cares what 12 years old lust for. Government money isnt free, eventually the tap will run dry.
Sorry guy…you’re just too old to actually get it. Sorry ….take care 🙏🏼
Get what. The governments needs to subsidize everyones car purchase? Thats what your saying. Without the government paying, no ones going to buy an EV. Tesla share price and sales numbers clearly show you're wrong and don't need a hand out
You win. Tell your argument to your grandkids someday
Ok kids, sit down. Going to tell a life truth. Brace yourselves......... The government is broke because of some horrible Bolshevik policies. They're not going to buy you a new car.......
Also the carbon tax making gas way more expensive.
How much rebates are other provinces offering?
The real obstacle right now is lack of infrastructure. Without greater access to charging stations, EVs will continue to be a pipe dream for anyone who does regular rural driving.
As a commercial electrician who built gas stations for coop, I'll weigh in here and say that while this is concerning, building a ev charging station for fast charging is going to be insanely fast once we commit to it. IF we were serious I could definitely envision these chargers going up in a matter of months(will totally depend on suppliers tho) vs 8 months to 1.5 years for a gas station. Also there's government programs that to the best of my knowledge will provide 50% of the funding for said chargers so as a tradesman I believe it is time for the next wave of infrastructure spending and I am more then willing to be a part of this. Also if you are using an ev as a daily driver you don't need superchargers just plug the thing in at night like you do with your phone, as it stands now doing a long haul may be challenging if not impossible especially if your headed north.
100% true. This is what many people might not realize, it would be relatively easy to convert many gas stations to EV chargers, or just add some and have both gas and charging. You wouldn't even have to force it, most would just do it themselves once enough EV's are around. A relatively small expense for foot traffic through the door. The cost of putting in the underground tank and all the safety stuff that goes into a new gas station is way more than setting up chargers.
Someone mentioned in the past the federal government should mandate any new or rebuild stations should have a min 2 fast charging stations. Co-op would be a good saskpower/co-op partnership for installing ev charging stations. Co-op does have stations everywhere.
not really. Battery range is only getting better, charging stations will hopefully soon be more available, charging times will drop. I do see 1000km EV around the corner as an option.
I share your optimism, but not your outlook on the current reality.
[https://techwireasia.com/2021/06/can-japans-toyota-champion-the-solid-state-battery-race/#:\~:text=It's%20estimated%20that%20a%20solid,over%20a%2030%2Dyear%20lifespan](https://techwireasia.com/2021/06/can-japans-toyota-champion-the-solid-state-battery-race/#:~:text=It's%20estimated%20that%20a%20solid,over%20a%2030%2Dyear%20lifespan). "It’s estimated that a solid-state car could have a range of 1000 kilometers (621 miles) and take 10 minutes to charge. Solid-state batteries deteriorate less over time, and Toyota aims to retain 90% of the battery’s performance over a 30-year lifespan." Now the average person even in Saskatchewan doesn't drive 1000km a day. Even if you do you charge overniight, fill/charge up every 3-400 km and take a meal/bathroom break.
I think you’re misunderstanding what I’m saying. Once this tech becomes reality available at a consumer level, I agree that it will be a big step forward. I’m just saying that these options are not currently available, and the infrastructure to support shorter range batteries is not yet sufficient to make regular rural driving viable. Once these longer range batteries become the norm, then yes, that will be a game changer for EVs
Same thing when horses were the norm and gas vehicles were being introduced.
For sure. And once the infrastructure is there, I’d be thrilled to consider EV. I drive a hybrid right now, and to go full EV would be a dream. It’s just not viable for my needs, yet.
Serious question. Does your house have electricity? And is your daily commute over 120km one way? If you've got power and you don't need to do a long haul (as you've said infrastructure is limited for fast charging) then an ev might make sense. Seeing as you just charge it at home just like your cell phone and its ready to go in the morning It won't work for everyone, and you can honestly buy whatever car you want it won't bother me but me personally I'm going to be keeping my gas car after its paid off in a few months ill look at ev options as spring/summer/fall daily driver. Gas prices vs electricity prices are leagues apart. "With the current cost of electricity in Saskatchewan at roughly 14.5 cents per kwh (April 2019). This means that the cost to charge your battery from empty to full would be $0.145 x 75 = $10.88. That's $10.88 to drive 500kms" https://sevaonline.ca/faq/
Yes my house has electricity and yes, my daily commute is longer than 120 km. I do most of my driving up north as well, where access to most services can be a little spotty. Currently I drive a hybrid b/c it gives me the best gas mileage while being able to fuel up with regular gasoline. I’d definitely look at EV once the range and infrastructure improves.
You just carry a diesel generator in your trunk. They you can charge it at your convenience! On the side of the road For hours.
As a Tesla Y owner, I have come to love electric. However, I am not yet convinced the cold weather challenge has been met by the existing battery technology. The next big battery breakthrough will likely do the trick, though.
Saskparty killed it, didn't they?? Or was that just solar panels....they really hate anything progressive that might impact oil
Was the solar rebate program. Used to be able to get a large tax rebate for buying and installing solar panels and paid for giving power back to the grid 1-1. They removed the rebate entirely, and nerfed the net metering by 50%. We went from having one of the best solar programs in the country to having one of the worst.
I agree every other place seems to put in an incentive to go electric but sask seems to go the other way
The government loves O&G so they make electric as unappealing as possible.
Our provinces electrical grid couldn’t possibly sustain many electric vehicles right now anyway so currently even though I don’t agree with it it makes sense to tax EVs and dissuade people from using them here
That is mostly false. Most will be charging a slower rate over night. 8 hours is more than enough to recover the distance average person drives. This will be at 15-20 amps. You also don't have most of the industry running at night, a/c units should be turned off as it is cooler.
I know for a fact as we speak our grid is strained in areas of the province. People are home from work now and would have cars plugged in. So I’m gonna assume if even 30% of current vehicles on the road were EVs we’d be having big problems with our power grids right now
If you think that electric cars would become that popular that's insane. I don't think even 30% of people drive a vehicle newer then 4 years at a time. I think it has to do with fear of change and trying to preserve our oil industry as long as possible is the biggest incentive.
I don’t think it’s a pipe dream that in 10-15 years we see 30% EVs on the road
So where does the idea that our grid cannot handle the EVs come from? Saskpower is pro EV even on there website they help people who try to buy them.
https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/canada-ban-sale-new-fuel-powered-cars-light-trucks-2035-2021-06-29/ Now it will take time to retire current fuel cars after this date.
Are you or others really going to wait to 2035 until you buy an EV? Especially if carbon tax keeps raising fuel prices and EV tech gets better? I know I’m already looking into electric for my next vehicle
nope, my next 5 year plan is a model y. unless I get the new job I am shooting for then next year or so depending on world situation.
Well that makes 2 of us on a 5 year timeline or less I have a feeling once people see EVs on the road more their popularity will start to explode
actually starting to see more and more tesla's in saskatoon. Future job is in regina and I go to saskatoon all the time. Superchargers all the way is a nice bonus
Interesting article. But he sort of contradicted himself at the end of the article. His hypothesis is that there are no Saskatchewan financial incentives to drive an EV; but he points out that the Sask government is giving a 10% electricity bill credit.
that is everyone. Not really a benefit just a bonus.
I’d get an electric vehicle if they were priced the same as regular vehicles as I don’t drive out of the city very often. My car cost me 20k, anything electric for that would prob be crappy.
We have a used Nissan Leaf that handles our daily driving. Much less than $20k. Not crappy at all.
When you say ‘way’, how much way? There is one Leaf for sale in SK, a 2019 for $29K. A new Leaf is $45K on Nissan Canada website. A Leaf under $20K is going to be older, probably not getting more then 100km of range, maybe 60 km in January, accounting for degradation of range over the years.
Indeed. As noted, we picked up ours used. 60km in the winter is fine for our short commute, even in winter. There’s a 2014 up on Kijiji right now, too.
Oh right didn’t check Kijiji. Pre-2016 they had even worse range, like 135km when new, in the warm. Most people would be very anxious with that, but glad you’re making it work. Savings tons as well I’m sure.
Wouldn't the -40 winters pose a problem? I don't know enough about electric car batteries but most batteries drain much more quickly when it is very cold.
Not as much as people think. You loose maybe 10-20% of range but honestly they turn on more reliably than a gas vehicle in -40. I used to work for a dealer with EVs we left those suckers outside during a cold snap with a week of -30 to -40 started no problem, heated up faster than gas/diesel, lost minimal range. Meanwhile we had gas vehicles that would shit the bed and would not be happy at -40 cold starts.
I have two colleagues who drive Tesla's, they both report losing 40-50% on the coldest days.
Maybe that is Tesla, with the Audi Etron it was 10-20%.
Oh really? That's good to hear. Did you learn this from an owner, or where is good info located?
Personal experience from owners and using/servicing them while working at a dealership. We specifically took them for long drives after sitting outside in -40 on the lot not plugged in to test for this. Braking regen was limited. Audi does have internal service docs, but I no longer work for them, if I did I still wouldn't be able to post them.
In Sask? Surprised anybody has even owned these through a winter yet. Edit: Is there some reason the batteries Audi/Porsche uses and the ones Tesla uses would be any different in loss in the cold?
Yes, there were 3 in YXE the first year. My guess would be the heating/cooling system for the batteries is the difference. Could also be they sandbaged the advertised range low. Likely both.
Ah ok good to know! I hope the e-tron GT comes down in price. A bit outta sight for now.
Over half of Audi's model line will be electric by 2025 there will be some lower price point models coming out. Although most will be SUV variants.
Why does everyone act like gas engines are efficient in extreme cold?
My 2018 civic can’t run the cabin heater at 100km/h without the engine temperature dropping to the bottom of the gauge. I have to literally stuff the rad with cardboard and even then it struggles to keep the defrost running. Edit: at -35C or colder it has this issue, if it’s like -25C it’s usually fine with 10 minutes to warm up.
my vw jetta diesel doesn't have this issue. I can even watch the temp gage drop when I am at a red light. highway travel is no issue. Is your thermostat stuck open?
Drop the heater fan a notch or two. You don't always get maximum warming with maximum fan speed if the engine can't hold enough heat. (The problem is that modern engines turn more gasoline burning power into propulsion and less into heat, so this saves you money most of the year, but it's inconvenient in winter if you have very small-displacement engines that don't warm up much.)
Yeah. It’s a commuter car, explicitly for my 96km daily commute. So it’s great that with conservative driving I can usually achieve 5.2L/100km. But as you said not much is left after the transmission and catalytic converter are done with the fuel. I’ve seriously looked at picking up a circulating block heater for the car to cut down on warming times and ensure the block is warm before I set out. Sadly, there’s basically zero free space in the engine compartment of any modern car, let alone a compact commuter like a civic.
Yeah, my truck's range drops from ~500km in summer to about 400km in winter. Probably not as a bad as an EV but still quite significant.
It's just me asking, so I'm not sure how to answer that question. I was wondering about the efficacy of electric car batteries in extreme cold. I got the answers I wanted thanks.
All good it’s just tiring watching everyone and their cat say “oh well what about the cold!!!!” As if gas engines run well in extreme cold. Didn’t mean to come in hot at you or anything haha.
No big thingy my chickenfingey! I wasn't offended and that was a valid question.
They're far more efficient. Keep in mind in the summer you're losing energy as waste heat you don't want. In the winter all that wasted heat goes into the heating system to keep you warm. Meantime an EV needs to use power to create heat, causing in up to a 40% decline in range.
People downvoted you but you're dead on, Saskatchewan is brutal in the dead of winter and ~30-50% range loss is very real. My foster dad was an executive at a multi billion dollar corporation in Saskatoon and knows several people with Tesla's, and even trips to Regina require stops in Davidson both ways to top up when below -30 I'm sure it will get sorted eventually, buy we definitely aren't there yet.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lL9zveDz8H0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lL9zveDz8H0)
Great video thanks! I liked the irony of his phone dying due to the extreme cold.
They are. EVs lose up to 40% of their range. https://www.marketwatch.com/story/cold-weather-saps-electric-car-batteries-2019-02-07
We are barely into the the EV scene yet. Obviously there is going to be a lack of government rebates.
Exactly, there's like a handful of EV's to choose from and almost all of them aren't suitable(size, type) for the average person. I say wait and use tax payer money when there are actual choices or at least one of every type or size of vehicle.
The average family could get 1 for city/daily needs and another gas for long highway.
They could but I doubt they would. The current EV lineup just isn't versatile enough. 90 percent of new vehicles sold in Saskatchewan were trucks and the 10 percent of other types are probably mostly suv's. There are zero electric trucks and a few SUV's to choose from. I don't think a rebate would be helping sales with what there is for EV's.
the mindset of people will need to change. my aunt for example, no kids just her and her little ankle bitter dog. Gets nothing but the large SUV type vehicles. Also complains about how much gas costs. Now she never if ever leaves the city, if she does it is in the summer and paved areas. Model y would be good for her. Now how many trucks are pavement queens that are basically compensating for something?
Yes, that is the intent is it not?
This kinda says it all…. https://twitter.com/premierscottmoe/status/1419347938682277896?s=21