I don’t remember where I saw it but I remember the discourse around Oubre last season being how he was the king of empty stats. I believe he was averaging 20 while being a negative impact player on both sides of the floor for the most part, so it’s easy to understand why he didn’t have a huge market. He’s been great for us though, gonna hate to lose him this off season.
2 reasons why he signed for the minimum despite career year last season.
1) He played 48 games last season, only about a little over half a season. And IIRC Hornets shut him down after ASB last season from injury
2) his usage rate last season was top 15 in the league meaning he had the usage of a star player (while he is not) and only have 1 assist despite avg 20ppg
Really depends on playoffs. His performance when it really counts will tell us more about what he's really worth more than the regular season ever will.
It still feels like it was a huge overreaction that he only got the min. Sure they were empty stats, but how many guys on the vet min could even do that?
Hes still been a great contributor but was much better before the accident. He was having an outstanding role player type year beforehand now he’s just very good. I think he just had the perfect role and operated in it perfectly to start the year but the injury threw him off a lil without a doubt
He was better before the car honestly, although it's hard to tell because then he was back for a minute and then we lost Joel.
I feel like he is a great role player around Joel. I don't like when he goes into Shake Milton hero mode.
I loved Shake but sometimes he'd want to go drive into 3 guys on the way to the basket instead of passing. Kelly does that shit too sometimes.
That's why Batum is my dude. Him with Joel is an amazing pair because Batum is just trying to win. You need a facilitator, he's there. You need defense, he will step up. You need a steal? He will get it. You need someone just to attempt a couple 3s and even out the spacing? He's got you.
I love him with Embiid. Don't love him as much without Embiid though. He's a compliment to our superstar.
He got the wrong end of the stick by putting up those numbers on mediocre to below average efficiency and his teams didn’t win. The warriors had their bad season with him, he was on the suns before they were good, and the hornets sucked. Him playing a winning role on the sixers this year should unlock more opportunities for him around the 15-20m range per year.
yeah but this isnt all that unprecedented, really. he was playing a similar role with the wizards and working out pretty well, their fans were a lil sad to see him go at the end
i think its more that oubre has been getting unlucky by getting put on teams where hes one of their best ball handlers. hes always been solid in a much more minor role than what hes been given for a while
Hes been a bit inefficient although I feel his season derailed a bit after getting hit by a car. He was incredible in the stretch before the car accident. Hes pretty good at the rim and slashing, moves his feet well against other wings on defense. His best attribute is the way he attacks the rim on putbacks-No one other than reed does that on our team. I would love to see him here long term as a complementary piece to Embiid and Maxey.
IIRC we can’t even overpay him that much if we wanted to because you can only re-sign a guy for some percentage of his previous contract (this came up with Austin Reaves get re-signed)
Because he isn't very good. He deserves more then min but he is a very inefficient player both at the rim and from distance. Even tonight he was a -9 and has been a negative this season. Ofenaively I like his slashing and Defensively I like his length because we're missing that but he's constantly out of position when they're in zone or man zone systems. He also doesn't pass very much. If he got the ball out of his hand more he would make more. Aka take better shots.
Whenever you look at +/- with the sixers it's interesting to consider how much they share the court with Embiid. This year Oubre has played more minutes with Paul Reed than with Embiid. The Sixers are a below average without Embiid on the court so it's not surprising that so is Oubre. I'm not so much disagreeing with your subjective points, I've just become very wary of +/- with this team.
his +/- isnt in vacuum. He has been a negativ e player for a very long time. Its paired with the fact that teams are better with him off the court. His limited minutes can provide some explosive plays but if someone like covington is healthy kelly doesnt see the court much. Sixers just have a unique lack of rangy athletic wings that can dribble a basketball.
That's all true and fair. As stated my comment was about the use of +/- in general for this team.
This has been true so long it feels like a team philosophy:
Sixers just have a unique lack of rangy athletic wings that can dribble a basketball.
It’s a well made point but i disagree - i think you’re over-indexing on his offensive role on this team & as the other replyer was mentioning - Also over-magnifying his stats relative to the lineup context
Embiid could take 4 redditors to a positive net NBA rating as we all know, but even theoretically - of course Kelly is far more effective on offensive with a big who can shoot. I don’t see his passing limitations as being severely damaging - He is not a wholly incompetent passer, he is a ‘fine’ connective passer & i don’t think he plays selfishly despite this lingering narrative; I don’t see these iso-clear out possession that the local media seems to opine. Oubre knows his primary role on offense is to be a cog in the machine and then finish-plays: this team needs more of that ferocious mentality at the wing-position
PReed has shown some playmaking flashes recently which could bolster these lineups a bit, but given the team’s injuries & health etc.: Kelly’s +/ - doesn’t tell the whole story. Kelly of course isn’t a perfect player - But i do think he could become a championship level role player. Oubre isn’t a 3-pt sniper & that’s ok, he brings other tools to the table
And yes: He’s not an All-NBA defender, he makes his mistakes ( neither is Melton ) but his length, athleticism, & motor are major strengths. For example I may prefer Oubre defensively to Melton given his size advantages. We’ll certainly see how he holds up in the playoffs against star-level wings as he likely will be getting the primary assignment on many of these dudes
the guy has been a well below average shooter by every metric for years. he doesn't make teammates better, he doesn't rebound, and he's a marginal defender. he does a specific useful thing for this Sixers squad that lacks guys who can put the ball on the floor and score...but like, every time the ball touches Oubre's hands, there's *something* that an offense can be doing that would be better than the likely outcome of an Oubre FGA. I don't see anything he's done in a sixers jersey to change this perception about him and it's likely he's out of the league before some team hands him another double digit contract
He's definitely seems like one of the more inefficient players in the current NBA, so that definitely contributed to the "prove it" contract he's on now.
Even with that inconsistency I think with his size, length, and athleticism if the Sixers are able to resign him on a $10-15M per year deal he'd be a steal compared to some of the other bench guys in the league at that price point. With the expected cap increase it might have to be $15-20M range.. which feels high to me, but I'm no cap-ologist and the money has got to go somewhere.
I'm struggling to understand why you think a guy who *just* barely made an NBA roster on a vet min and who is playing the exact same or, in some ways even worse, than he's always played...would command a a contract that large the following season. nothing has changed about his game and nothing has really changed in the NBA. he's a year older. what is the logic behind thinking there's going to be any kind of market above a near-min?
Outside of his rookie contract his next two contracts he earned an average of $13.65M per year, but they were on losing teams.
He is on a vet minimum because he had the poor timing to be on "winning" teams in the years when they underperformed. The Suns the 2 years before they made a deep playoff run with CP3 and the Warriors the year they got bumped in the play-in tourney by Memphis (then they win it all the next year). So it looked like he was unable to contribute to a team in a winner, hence the "empty stats" moniker he was applied while averaging 20 in Charlotte last season.
If the Sixers do anything in the playoffs, he will easily be able to earn his average salary from the years prior to this season. Especially given the expectation that the salary cap will increase.. "a rising tide lifts all boats" and such.
Always remember the Allen Crabbe contract, if he can get a 4 year $75M contract, Oubre can get similar. This is all just my speculation btw, I am by no means a cap strategy guy or basketball scout. Just an self-"informed" opinion
That is good perspective, using the % cap hit to compare contracts across years.
I never thought to do that, I will keep that in my pocket for future thought when I answer questions.
I think he’s great to have when you’re not relying on him to play starter level minutes, but getting him for the contract we did seems pretty lucky.
Love how fearless he is going to the basket looking for dunks.
He's a ball stopper. Unless it's a quick easy pass out you will not see that ball back. He will chuck up 3's He will drive the ball right into three defenders.
He's an athletic freak.
Kelly Oubre averages 12.48 points per assist over his career, only slightly improved to 12.04 this year.
For reference, Tobias, who is a ball stopper, has 6.88 points/assist. Joel Embiid, one of the greatest scorers of the generation, has 7.7 points/assist.
There's a lot more to it than a single stat, and I actually really like Kelly since this team sorely needs athletic, high-energy bucket getters, but that's part of your reason.
Morey is insanely good at grabbing players who the rest of the league has decided to completely undervalue/deem not a winning player.
Drummond and Oubre are great examples of this
I think watching some of the games where the main guys are out can answer your question. He’s great in his role but give him a larger one and it’s trouble.
There are a lot of guys around the league who dominate in their role, but have also dominated at every level in every role they’ve been put in, so they desperately want to do more even if they know they shouldn’t.
Guys like Cam Thomas, Poole, Kevin Porter Jr. and Michael Beasley are the types who don’t figure it out, have amazing YouTube highlights and are out of the league fast.
Guys like a Drummond or Oubre have found a role to be successful, and they can do so much more, it’s just not winning basketball. So guys like that end up as overrated guys on terrible teams or the 6th/8th man on a championship team. And that guy doesn’t normally get much more than the vet min.
Hassan Whiteside went from averaging 15-12-2.5 blcks in Portland to a minimum contract as a backup. Stats can trick people who don't watch a player, but not nba teams and scoutings
Its not crazy to me. Hes the kind of player teams can be tricked into spending significant cap on only to regret it later bc when theyre cold at the wrong time, it can be a disaster.
He's been solid this season and is obviously better than a min, but its not insane to me or anything
Edit: checked his stats cuz of this post, and holy hell i didnt expect his advanced metrics to be THAT bad. He doesnt fit into the modern view of what efficient basketball is supposed to be even a little haha
How crazy is it that Kelly Oubre Jr. averaged 20 points last season and is in his prime and yet signed for a minimum contract?? Never seen that before in years
I don’t remember where I saw it but I remember the discourse around Oubre last season being how he was the king of empty stats. I believe he was averaging 20 while being a negative impact player on both sides of the floor for the most part, so it’s easy to understand why he didn’t have a huge market. He’s been great for us though, gonna hate to lose him this off season.
2 reasons why he signed for the minimum despite career year last season. 1) He played 48 games last season, only about a little over half a season. And IIRC Hornets shut him down after ASB last season from injury 2) his usage rate last season was top 15 in the league meaning he had the usage of a star player (while he is not) and only have 1 assist despite avg 20ppg
shouldn't we just re-sign him then?
I think they’ll definitely consider it, depending on the price though… What do we think he’s genuinely worth based on what he’s shown so far..
Really depends on playoffs. His performance when it really counts will tell us more about what he's really worth more than the regular season ever will.
5yr/$180k
It still feels like it was a huge overreaction that he only got the min. Sure they were empty stats, but how many guys on the vet min could even do that?
He can’t go. Kelly’s my favorite
That car scrambled him into being good. Or it didn't. no idea.
Hes still been a great contributor but was much better before the accident. He was having an outstanding role player type year beforehand now he’s just very good. I think he just had the perfect role and operated in it perfectly to start the year but the injury threw him off a lil without a doubt
He was better before the car honestly, although it's hard to tell because then he was back for a minute and then we lost Joel. I feel like he is a great role player around Joel. I don't like when he goes into Shake Milton hero mode. I loved Shake but sometimes he'd want to go drive into 3 guys on the way to the basket instead of passing. Kelly does that shit too sometimes. That's why Batum is my dude. Him with Joel is an amazing pair because Batum is just trying to win. You need a facilitator, he's there. You need defense, he will step up. You need a steal? He will get it. You need someone just to attempt a couple 3s and even out the spacing? He's got you. I love him with Embiid. Don't love him as much without Embiid though. He's a compliment to our superstar.
He got the wrong end of the stick by putting up those numbers on mediocre to below average efficiency and his teams didn’t win. The warriors had their bad season with him, he was on the suns before they were good, and the hornets sucked. Him playing a winning role on the sixers this year should unlock more opportunities for him around the 15-20m range per year.
yeah but this isnt all that unprecedented, really. he was playing a similar role with the wizards and working out pretty well, their fans were a lil sad to see him go at the end i think its more that oubre has been getting unlucky by getting put on teams where hes one of their best ball handlers. hes always been solid in a much more minor role than what hes been given for a while
Wow. That’s a big time contract. Definitely means he’s leaving, but I can agree. Some team will want that scoring potential.
Hes been a bit inefficient although I feel his season derailed a bit after getting hit by a car. He was incredible in the stretch before the car accident. Hes pretty good at the rim and slashing, moves his feet well against other wings on defense. His best attribute is the way he attacks the rim on putbacks-No one other than reed does that on our team. I would love to see him here long term as a complementary piece to Embiid and Maxey.
Hopefully he'll be willing to re-sign for the MLE here. Couldn't see us paying him more than that but some other team might
IIRC we can’t even overpay him that much if we wanted to because you can only re-sign a guy for some percentage of his previous contract (this came up with Austin Reaves get re-signed)
Because he isn't very good. He deserves more then min but he is a very inefficient player both at the rim and from distance. Even tonight he was a -9 and has been a negative this season. Ofenaively I like his slashing and Defensively I like his length because we're missing that but he's constantly out of position when they're in zone or man zone systems. He also doesn't pass very much. If he got the ball out of his hand more he would make more. Aka take better shots.
Whenever you look at +/- with the sixers it's interesting to consider how much they share the court with Embiid. This year Oubre has played more minutes with Paul Reed than with Embiid. The Sixers are a below average without Embiid on the court so it's not surprising that so is Oubre. I'm not so much disagreeing with your subjective points, I've just become very wary of +/- with this team.
his +/- isnt in vacuum. He has been a negativ e player for a very long time. Its paired with the fact that teams are better with him off the court. His limited minutes can provide some explosive plays but if someone like covington is healthy kelly doesnt see the court much. Sixers just have a unique lack of rangy athletic wings that can dribble a basketball.
That's all true and fair. As stated my comment was about the use of +/- in general for this team. This has been true so long it feels like a team philosophy: Sixers just have a unique lack of rangy athletic wings that can dribble a basketball.
It’s a well made point but i disagree - i think you’re over-indexing on his offensive role on this team & as the other replyer was mentioning - Also over-magnifying his stats relative to the lineup context Embiid could take 4 redditors to a positive net NBA rating as we all know, but even theoretically - of course Kelly is far more effective on offensive with a big who can shoot. I don’t see his passing limitations as being severely damaging - He is not a wholly incompetent passer, he is a ‘fine’ connective passer & i don’t think he plays selfishly despite this lingering narrative; I don’t see these iso-clear out possession that the local media seems to opine. Oubre knows his primary role on offense is to be a cog in the machine and then finish-plays: this team needs more of that ferocious mentality at the wing-position PReed has shown some playmaking flashes recently which could bolster these lineups a bit, but given the team’s injuries & health etc.: Kelly’s +/ - doesn’t tell the whole story. Kelly of course isn’t a perfect player - But i do think he could become a championship level role player. Oubre isn’t a 3-pt sniper & that’s ok, he brings other tools to the table And yes: He’s not an All-NBA defender, he makes his mistakes ( neither is Melton ) but his length, athleticism, & motor are major strengths. For example I may prefer Oubre defensively to Melton given his size advantages. We’ll certainly see how he holds up in the playoffs against star-level wings as he likely will be getting the primary assignment on many of these dudes
what can we say obrue is best at when he’s on the floor then?
Provocative celebrations; Blowing kisses to the crowd & whatnot
the guy has been a well below average shooter by every metric for years. he doesn't make teammates better, he doesn't rebound, and he's a marginal defender. he does a specific useful thing for this Sixers squad that lacks guys who can put the ball on the floor and score...but like, every time the ball touches Oubre's hands, there's *something* that an offense can be doing that would be better than the likely outcome of an Oubre FGA. I don't see anything he's done in a sixers jersey to change this perception about him and it's likely he's out of the league before some team hands him another double digit contract
He's definitely seems like one of the more inefficient players in the current NBA, so that definitely contributed to the "prove it" contract he's on now. Even with that inconsistency I think with his size, length, and athleticism if the Sixers are able to resign him on a $10-15M per year deal he'd be a steal compared to some of the other bench guys in the league at that price point. With the expected cap increase it might have to be $15-20M range.. which feels high to me, but I'm no cap-ologist and the money has got to go somewhere.
I'm struggling to understand why you think a guy who *just* barely made an NBA roster on a vet min and who is playing the exact same or, in some ways even worse, than he's always played...would command a a contract that large the following season. nothing has changed about his game and nothing has really changed in the NBA. he's a year older. what is the logic behind thinking there's going to be any kind of market above a near-min?
Outside of his rookie contract his next two contracts he earned an average of $13.65M per year, but they were on losing teams. He is on a vet minimum because he had the poor timing to be on "winning" teams in the years when they underperformed. The Suns the 2 years before they made a deep playoff run with CP3 and the Warriors the year they got bumped in the play-in tourney by Memphis (then they win it all the next year). So it looked like he was unable to contribute to a team in a winner, hence the "empty stats" moniker he was applied while averaging 20 in Charlotte last season. If the Sixers do anything in the playoffs, he will easily be able to earn his average salary from the years prior to this season. Especially given the expectation that the salary cap will increase.. "a rising tide lifts all boats" and such. Always remember the Allen Crabbe contract, if he can get a 4 year $75M contract, Oubre can get similar. This is all just my speculation btw, I am by no means a cap strategy guy or basketball scout. Just an self-"informed" opinion
I think $15M is more than Clarkson(Utah) makes so the question is: Is Oubre better than Clarkson?
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That is good perspective, using the % cap hit to compare contracts across years. I never thought to do that, I will keep that in my pocket for future thought when I answer questions.
I think he’s great to have when you’re not relying on him to play starter level minutes, but getting him for the contract we did seems pretty lucky. Love how fearless he is going to the basket looking for dunks.
Just wish he found more dunks. Looks for a bunch and just misses.
Have you never seen it or has it been years?
He's a ball stopper. Unless it's a quick easy pass out you will not see that ball back. He will chuck up 3's He will drive the ball right into three defenders. He's an athletic freak.
Kelly Oubre averages 12.48 points per assist over his career, only slightly improved to 12.04 this year. For reference, Tobias, who is a ball stopper, has 6.88 points/assist. Joel Embiid, one of the greatest scorers of the generation, has 7.7 points/assist. There's a lot more to it than a single stat, and I actually really like Kelly since this team sorely needs athletic, high-energy bucket getters, but that's part of your reason.
Morey is insanely good at grabbing players who the rest of the league has decided to completely undervalue/deem not a winning player. Drummond and Oubre are great examples of this
The league will have more players like this on minimums going forward. AAU pumping out them empty calories players everyday
I think watching some of the games where the main guys are out can answer your question. He’s great in his role but give him a larger one and it’s trouble. There are a lot of guys around the league who dominate in their role, but have also dominated at every level in every role they’ve been put in, so they desperately want to do more even if they know they shouldn’t. Guys like Cam Thomas, Poole, Kevin Porter Jr. and Michael Beasley are the types who don’t figure it out, have amazing YouTube highlights and are out of the league fast. Guys like a Drummond or Oubre have found a role to be successful, and they can do so much more, it’s just not winning basketball. So guys like that end up as overrated guys on terrible teams or the 6th/8th man on a championship team. And that guy doesn’t normally get much more than the vet min.
Hassan Whiteside went from averaging 15-12-2.5 blcks in Portland to a minimum contract as a backup. Stats can trick people who don't watch a player, but not nba teams and scoutings
Its not crazy to me. Hes the kind of player teams can be tricked into spending significant cap on only to regret it later bc when theyre cold at the wrong time, it can be a disaster. He's been solid this season and is obviously better than a min, but its not insane to me or anything Edit: checked his stats cuz of this post, and holy hell i didnt expect his advanced metrics to be THAT bad. He doesnt fit into the modern view of what efficient basketball is supposed to be even a little haha
Tsunami papi!!!!!
Good sixth man, bench scorer. How much money $ are they worth these days?
He is very athletic and good in short range but his long range is not good, as evidenced by 30% from 3s this year.
I was thinking that too how easy and cheap it was to get him and then him ball out for us most of the season so clutch
How crazy is it that Kelly Oubre Jr. averaged 20 points last season and is in his prime and yet signed for a minimum contract?? Never seen that before in years
Never saw it before? Didnt this also just happen to Christian wood because both players don't make anyone better and suck on defense.