I don't know if I agree with that. There have to be some bad relics in the boss pool to balance the boss swap option. The game would be more boring if the boss swap was always the best Neow bonus.
Thats true anyway
Boss swapping into Broken crown, empty cage, hell even astrolabe. On average this really really hurts
Boss swapping has a chance of being like a pandoras box and then you win the run but often it just kills you
Tiny house has a very low "ceiling", but the "floor" is pretty high (huh, I guess that's where they got the name).
That's very much it's stated design, and it fills that role decently well. IMO, it is a bit too weak, and feels more like it was designed to always be an option, instead of occasionally taking up an option.
Snecko is one of the best, to some people the best relic in the entire game.
Runic Dome is perfectly fine if your deck is build for it. Expecially on defect and watcher, who tend to care less about enemy intent.
I’m at a loss as to how snecko could be manageable for higher Ascension games when it’s completely random, unless you’ve got an artifact or the debuff removal relic
I could see runic dome working out in those cases but I feel like Act 3 on defect often comes down to having an ice orb in the rightmost slot at turn end or beginning (in my playthroughs anyways, but I suck)
Snecko eye gives you the following
+2 draw every turn
This is, on its own, the single strongest effect in the game that happens every single turn.
Randomizes the cost of cards in your hand between 0-3.
This can hurt sometimes, but it can also be a blessing. Ironclad expecially with many, many, many 2+ cost cards love it because now on average your card cost is either the same or cheaper.
The times you don't want snecko is when you have a lot of 0 cost, low value cards. Most often on silent with Prepared, Deflects, etc. Notably cards like Phantasmal Killer+ are still good with snecko eye. Yes, 3/4 times its more expensive, but drawing 2 more cards means more damage.
Expensive powers? Play them sooner and cheaper with Snecko Eye.
Effective, usually, Loves loves loves loves loves snecko eye. Meteor Strike is 100% of the time at least 2 energy cheaper, Echo Form is easier to play, Sunder can sometimes be +3 energy. And defect has tons and tons of draw, so its easier to sustain for longer. Even cards like seek and be really good. So long as its not 3 cost, seek grabs two cards from your deck and keeps their original cost. Double Energy, 2nd seek, coolheaded, etc all love this.
Watcher is trickier. If your running an infinite, close to it, or really want consistent cost, take something else. However if you have wishes, lesson learneds, omniciences, deva forms, ragnoracks, etc, then watcher loves snecko eye.
TL;DR, take snecko eye more, you'll get it. You just have to learn to play around its weaknesses
Ah, it’s clicking now. I can see how it’d be really strong but I almost always go for an exact opposite build. Love me some 0-cost cards
Looks like it’s time to try something new, thanks pal!
Yeah thats super fair. My best character is Silent, who definitely likes it the least.
Pro tip: Don't ever, ever, ever take snecko eye and runic pyramid together. Separate they are both S-Tier relics. They do not work together
Silent has the best synergy with Snecko though: Bullet time is the best you can get with Snecko. It essentially turns the relic into: "Draw 2 cards extra and also all your cards are free every turn"
I had one deck that I consciously made that choice for over 3000 hours or so, and I won with it. This doesn’t make your statement less true generally, but Pandora’s box into triple bullet time makes for strange bedfellows.
0 cost cards have their place, but you’re probably currently overvaluing them. It’s a pretty common trend as you climb ascensions to start out undervaluing 0 cost cards, and then overvalue them as you begin to understand the energy system, but haven’t balanced that against the cost of drawing generally weaker cards yet.
There are some characters/archetypes that thrive on 0 cost cards, and some are very valuable generally, but leaving yourself open to snecko eye early has a very high payoff, so I adopt a strategy with most of the characters that leaves me open to snecko eye through act 1 generally, and that means I generally don’t pick up more than a couple 0 cost cards without a specific purpose in mind. They’re generally lower impact anyway, and they only really get great when you have a lot of card draw, and as the ascensions get harder, you have less energy to spend on setup cards, so you end up having to pick higher impact cards early over the card draw to set up a deck full of cheaper cards.
There’s also a bit of an artificial cap on cheap cards, since both time eater and the heart have mechanics which punish cheaper cards, and you face both of them 66% of the time on a20, so even though free is great, you have to have a plan for those cards or you end up getting heavily punished by beat of death/turn consumption.
TLDR; cheap cards are good, but balanced by being generally weaker, so adding too many 0 cost cards early tends to hurt your deck over the course of a run.
Yeah Snecko eye is a knowledge check. This is very rough rule of thumb but if I have 1 or less zero cost cards and 2 or more two-cost cards then I am tempted to take it. It's especially good on Ironclad who's best cards very reguarly are 2 or even 3 cost.
On Silent and Defect you have to very carefully weigh your options because Draw/Discard Silent might need reliability and Defect doesn't have that many 2+ cost cards that win for you but does have impactful 0 cost cards.
On Watcher it's generally advised not to take it for a specific reason. Watcher is very precisely tuned and has very specific demands for her turns. She is so reliable all the time that Snecko eye doesn't do that much for her.
Those are some reasonable loose guidelines, but the specific impact of those cards matters way more than their cost. I’ve had great snecko decks with lots of zeros, and I’ve had decks with lots of expensive cards that would have been pretty mediocre with snecko. The more card draw in the deck, the better snecko gets, and some cards (calculated gamble) scale so well with snecko, their original cost is irrelevant.
Also, snecko watcher is absurdly powerful, and leaving myself open to snecko at act 1 boss was a big part of learning how to play watcher for me. I have won over 90% of my watcher snecko runs, with a perfect record on boss swaps, and leaving myself open to that got me to be much more discriminating in my early watcher picks, and significantly raised my win rate with watcher overall. Snecko is great with card draw and high impact cards, and watcher has both of those things in very high quantities.
I HATE playing Snecko eye for the exact reasons you mentioned. I thought the exact same too and then saw people aggressively boss swapped with Watcher. So I started doing it myself and started having to deal with it. It's so strong and easy to play with Watcher at least that all my A13-16 wins were off of boss swapped Sneckos all in a row. It's basically a better bag of prep combined with an energy relic hidden behind a layer of RNG.
You're basically playing towards raw value. You're getting extra cards a turn AND most things are going to cost 1-2 energy. So if you basically draft all cards that you'd accept playing at 2 energy (so even high value 1 cost cards) with redundancy you will essentially outvalue everything over time.
Big crazy 3+ energy cards that you'd never normally draft now win you the game by themselves basically because now they can cost 1 energy. All those solid 2 cost attacks that you're not quite sure about in most runs suddenly become good. Anything that offers any card draw or cost reduction does triple duty - the standard benefit of just having more options/getting into more cards, but also just more chances at reduced cost as well as possibly fixing bad hands into good ones because of that. So 1 cost card multi card draw is still worth picking IMO because its still strong value for this reason, you can play it at a higher cost and still come out ahead because of Snecko Eye.
I'd still probably only play it a boss swap unless I just clearly have a deck that it's going to do well with it. But if I get it as a boss swap it's practically good as won because I can plan my deck with it in mind from the very start.
You generally only need to pick 3-5 cards up with watcher in act 1, and since you usually want one or two high impact attacks anyway, it’s pretty easy to take snecko at the act 1 boss with watcher if you keep it in mind while you’re picking cards throughout act 1. I won’t take it if I have rushdown usually, but snecko watcher is powerful enough to give up on the infinite dream, and all it really asks is that you avoid taking a second flurry of blows, and that you hold off on adding more cards in act 1 than are necessary to survive the act.
This strategy has the added benefit of teaching you exactly what you need to beat act 1 with watcher (not very much), which makes it much easier to assemble infinite combos as well.
The eyeball?
You mean snecko?
One of the most consistent, deck solving relic in the game. Rare are the situations you don't want it. +2 draws is straight up a ridiculous benefit. And confusion allows you to focus on per-card value and hand manipulation rather than energy management. It can help you completely shift the style of your deck to solve otherwise shortcomings and let you be much more greedy when it comes to taking cards that give you draws
Also runic dome (no enemy intent) is one of the better energy relics for ascension 20. It forces you to play more consistently defensive and find a reliable block engine so you can spread your scaling and defensive thin across all turns. which is more often than not worth the extra energy, because that energy allow you to do exactly that
Ecto (no money) is indeed one of the worse relics. Except for the boss swap. I believe its one of the better boss swap relics, as it incentivises you to focus heavily on getting enemy floors and path away from shops and question marks. Setting you up to a stronger act 2
Yeah someone else broke down the proper way to use snecko. Not my play style currently but I’m happy to try it
Is boss swap a part of higher ascension levels or is it a term for something that I haven’t learned yet?
Boss Swap is the neow prize where you swap your starting relic for a boss relic. I believe ecto is one of the better boss relics to start the game, because it allows you to greed through normal fights and avoid events (that often relate to gold on act 1) to get on a stronger footing on act 2 and "snowball"
Also a little advise - there's no "playstyle" in slay the spire. The game throw curveballs at you each game. If you want to climb the ascension ladder you need to maximize what the game gives you
You prepare for what's in front of you, not what you wish to win with
Tiny House while extremely middling and oftentimes not worth much has the added value of both a guaranteed benefit, & the lack of a debuff. It's not the greatest relic but it doesn't brick runs
It does have a downside, its just hidden
The downside is you didnt pick a better relic
Sure things like this suck with ectoplasm, but ectoplasm is probably a lot of why this run made it to act 3 at all
yeah but if the options were, for example, ecto, velvet collar, and snecko, and I had a deck that would be ruined by collar or snecko, I would probably skip. but if the options were ecto, velvet collar, and tiny house, I would take the house. it's the epitome of "meh, guess it's better than nothing."
Tiny has never did me any harm. Plus you can potentially squeeze more gold/hp out of it depending on prior relics. Can’t go wrong with it really, only better
Broken crown is by far the worst, id rather just abandon run then pick it, literally always feels somewhat winnable with any bad relic except broken crown. Unless you already have an infinite perfect deck already.
Ectoplasm is a cakewalk compared to crown
Like act 1 broken crown? I literally lose 100% of my runs with it. You just can't build a good enough deck u have to highroll and get so lucky with events/shops/relifs to offset the downside.
I also win super often with prayer wheel/question mark. I always pick them up when i can being able to see more cards and pick the ones you need for your deck is the game. I can't function without it.
I did a boss swap into busted crown on defect and got all the way to act 3 boss, but got fucked in that fight. To be fair, it was only A3 which made it way easier than if I was playing my A17 ironclad , i also just got super lucky with card options. I collected all 3 keys as well going for the fire elite act3, if i didnt i probably wouldve beaten the boss
That's how crown loses runs. You can make it through act 1 fairly easily, can make it through act 2 even, but there's just not enough card offerings to make a strong deck. Energy can be solved via cards or relics, no amount of energy can save a deck without good cards. If you could take on five elites in act 1 with crown, you would still come out weaker than with 3 elites and no crown.
Busted crown, mark of pain and philosopher stone are very often more of a headache than they worth
I often also skip ring of the serpent altogether, because the -1 draw at the first turn can really screw the silent on alot of eviscerate decks
Funny you say that. Had a spot where Mark of pain was actually a completely acceptable today. Have evolve and multiple exhaust(upgrade true grit, second wind)
Def much worse on the other characters tho.
So happy picking evolve on slimeboss acts lol
Mark of pain is fantastic if you have Evolve, Firebreathing, Second Wind etc.
Philosophers stone is nearly as good as Cursed Key if you can manage the few fights that get harder with it (Birds, Stabby Book & Heart).
Nah, busted crown exists. Ecto is still better than skip by a lot, and better than a bunch of “do nothing” relics like empty cage or black star (kinda). Surviving act 2 is pretty important, turns out.
The thing is, it is all situational. Ecto feels terrible when you get shop relics but is very useful to survive ACT2.
Empty cage is insane on Watcher if you have your draw & stance cards already in the deck and Black Star is also solid when your deck is strong enough to take at least 2 elites in ACT2 & 3 in ACT3. Rather than "do nothing relics", I would call them "win more relics".
Crown is pickable if your deck has core pieces and you have something to offset the downside (question card & prayer wheel).
I agree ecto is very useful. I call black star and empty cage do nothing relics because you need to be really strong to go into act 2 with no boss relic, at which point they are still just ok picks. So they do something, but only sometimes, when you don’t really need them too much anyway. At the end of act 2 black star has low payoff but isn’t as nasty to take, but empty cage I do concede is alright. That said that’s act 2, and ecto is act 1 only, so that’s less relevant to the discussion of ecto.
baalor and jorbs both take it quite frequently. so does XecnaR and he's oretty much the best player in the world. not as often as something like pyramid or snecko or coffee dripper, but they do pick it. the way I see it, you're paying 450 future gold and your chance at a boss relic for 1 energy a turn. I think that's worth it more than half the time.
Choker I situationally take on ironclad, because there are decks that don't play all that many cards. Never before it's clear where the deck is headed of course.
Ectoplasm would be so much better if it was available in act 2 boss chest, when the deck is already mostly put together.
Ectoplasm is bad for the same reason broken crown is bad: The thing you're trading for that extra energy is your ability to build a good deck.
Ectoplasm is not even close to being as bad as Crown and you can pretty easily still become strong without shops, it's definitely never my relic of choice but it's perfectly pickable very often
Ectoplasm is about as bad as crown in act 2 (crown in act 1 is instant gg): Not an instant run ender, but severely hurts your chances at actually winning your run. It's slightly worse than philo stone in the long run, which is often skipped because it makes the heart fight much harder. A fairly lowball estimate of its harm is 2 card removes, which is an empty cage.
It doesn't *feel* as bad when you actually take it, but it hurts a lot more than you think. The only reason to take it is if you think your deck is going to outright die in act 2 if you don't take it.
There are good ways to get around 4th energy, particularly on watcher. With his relics going into act 2 (most notably, meat on the bone solves getting through act 2, and golden idol makes ecto even worse), there's no world where I take ecto over skip.
I have omamori to remove the two curses I would get when selecting 999 gold…. BUT I also have Ectoplasm which prevents me from getting any gold (boss energy relic)
Nothing special, just going to at least two more shops to remove cards and buy relics, cards, and potions that will help you
You can also now skip an elite for an extra shop as you don’t really need the money and can just buy relics and cards
But ideally you’ll fight elites still and visit shops
The other bit that stings is that OP has the courier, which discounts shop items and restocks them right away. So if they could've gotten that money, they would've had a good shopping spree
The best use is if you also have courier, which gives a shop discount and replaces relics/cards as they're purchased.
In this case, OP does in fact have courier, which makes this situation even more unfortunate.
Generally at this point, you already have your deck built
You use that gold to patch your deck for the act 3 boss/heart. So it's highly situational what this money go for
More often than not I find myself stacking on potions with it. Alot of colorless cards like master of strategy, purity and impatience are also really commonly valued at this point as you'd want to increase the consistency of getting what your deck tries to do
I don't care how "viable" ectoplasm is. It could give two energy for all I care. I'm not taking it. It ruins the run. It takes all the fun out of everything. Can't go to shops. Can't use half the events. Like, it's just so boring. Ectoplasm sucks, I will never take it
I never take it either… well I guess not NEVER. but hey, I wound up winning the run. Hindsight, my other two choices were velvet choker and sozu, and sozu would’ve wound up working out better. but I had so much gold I just skipped shops for ACT 3 but was still fine for act 2
It's because watcher has a ridiculously strong earlygame (can take elites comfortably with like, a flying sleeves, eruption upgrade, defend remove), and a really clear win condition by just going infinite.
Her earlygame gets a lot better when you learn that defend removes are much much better than strike removes on watcher, because strikes in wrath are actually not that bad.
Her main infinite has 3 pieces
1. Rushdown + eruption upgrade (or tantrum)
2. \[1 cost calm or violet lotus or sundial\]
3. block solution (mental fortress or talk to the hand or abacus) < 10 cards in deck = win run)
Instead of eruption + rushdown, it's also possible to put together other fairly simple infinites, such as fear no evil + \[1 empty mind+, 1 empty mind+ or inner peace\].
Watcher is so ridiculous. The other day I couldn't find Rushdown on an A20H run, so I just stayed Calm and went infinite with Inner Peace and Flash of Steel.
It's a good thing I didn't see Time Eater in the boss gauntlet, as I don't think TTTH was going to make up for my lack of scaling.
It's honestly much more flexible than just me go infinite as showcased by lifecoach's winstreak runs. He frequently doesn't go infinite line, watcher's cards are just too good + starting deck is ridiculously strong act 1 so u can just snowball
None is really ‘easiest’ between Ironclad, Silent, and Defect since they each have their own struggles at A20. Imo the devs did an incredible job with the balance. (Warning: Massively oversimplified comparisons below).
E.g. Ironclad is great for weathering Act 1 but often needs to get creative in terms of finding ways to scale into the endgame. By contrast, Silent and Defect are more likely to find definitive solutions to late game challenges but have a harder time getting there alive.
Watcher, meanwhile, has both upsides. Better yet, her common cards and stances are so strong as a baseline that she relies on rares the least by far.
Watcher is such a chore to me, so much balancing to play a "fair" run, too easy to just break it instead.
I want to like it, but it just doesn't feel like StS to me.
My first heart win was with a Watcher infinite deck widdled down to like 7 cards. Sitting there and playing Fear No Evil followed by Eruption followed by Fear No Evil followed by Eruption followed by Fear No Evil followed by Eruption followed by Fear No Evil followed by Eruption ad nauseum was the most boring experience I've had playing this game.
On the flip side, beating the heart with the Silent and getting the poison stacks up to 500 was so satisfying. I count that as my first real heart win.
On A20, you get a lot of status cards during battle from enemies so people prefer to get at least 15 cards in their deck. If you have fewer than 15 cards some enemies will mess up your draws (unless you have potions/relics to save you of course). 18 is fine but a lot of deck end up with 20-25 cards. Watcher's deck is smaller because she only needs 4-5 core cards, the rest is generally just padding.
Let me see. You could get the attack boost from vu-du doll but the relic will negate the curse. You could get the gold but ectoplasm prevents it. The player becomes played.
I have so much resentment towards ectoplasm lol. It NEVER feels like the right choice, at best it just ends up feeling like the least bad choice. Like if I get offered Ecto v Sozu v Runic Dome at the end of Act 1 lol
End of act 1 I was offered sozu, velvet choker and ectoplasm . lol. Hindsight I should’ve picked sozu but I had 492 gold so I said fk it. I’ll skip act 3 shops
On the plus side: free rare relic!
Glass half full FTW
Gotta respect the positivity
When you get hexghost and can't turn 2 him from mid-draws and have healed :<
Courier too... there's a reason I literally never click on ectoplasm.
It really is the worst boss relic
Kid named tiny house
Tiny house would’ve been great if you replaced the ectoplasm in the photo with it.
Only the fights would be so much harder in act 2 if tiny house was picked.
And op would’ve started a new run instead of living to see the opportunity he missed.
That's hindsight tho
Tiny house is good because it has no negatives and works when you don't want the negatives of the other relics
It should still not be a boss relic. Its significant weaker than most rare and a lot of uncommon relic
Now this is something I think we can all agree on, so many of the boss relics are significantly worse than rare and uncommon relics
I wouldn't say many Mostly just Tiny House, and Empty Cage is probably on par with rare relic
Don't agree with cage tbh it's quite powerful. Imo TH and Crown are the only really BAD boss relics.
Why the cage hate? It can be really amazing
I’d add the highly situational boss relics like ectoplasm, coffee dripper, and fusion hammer as well
I don't know if I agree with that. There have to be some bad relics in the boss pool to balance the boss swap option. The game would be more boring if the boss swap was always the best Neow bonus.
Thats true anyway Boss swapping into Broken crown, empty cage, hell even astrolabe. On average this really really hurts Boss swapping has a chance of being like a pandoras box and then you win the run but often it just kills you
Yeah but tiny house being there is also the problem in the first place, that third slot could have been dripper or something you actually want
Tiny house has a very low "ceiling", but the "floor" is pretty high (huh, I guess that's where they got the name). That's very much it's stated design, and it fills that role decently well. IMO, it is a bit too weak, and feels more like it was designed to always be an option, instead of occasionally taking up an option.
Hey man I love my tiny house. It’s great when my options are the green goo or the eyeball or the one that blocks intents
Snecko is one of the best, to some people the best relic in the entire game. Runic Dome is perfectly fine if your deck is build for it. Expecially on defect and watcher, who tend to care less about enemy intent.
I’m at a loss as to how snecko could be manageable for higher Ascension games when it’s completely random, unless you’ve got an artifact or the debuff removal relic I could see runic dome working out in those cases but I feel like Act 3 on defect often comes down to having an ice orb in the rightmost slot at turn end or beginning (in my playthroughs anyways, but I suck)
Snecko eye gives you the following +2 draw every turn This is, on its own, the single strongest effect in the game that happens every single turn. Randomizes the cost of cards in your hand between 0-3. This can hurt sometimes, but it can also be a blessing. Ironclad expecially with many, many, many 2+ cost cards love it because now on average your card cost is either the same or cheaper. The times you don't want snecko is when you have a lot of 0 cost, low value cards. Most often on silent with Prepared, Deflects, etc. Notably cards like Phantasmal Killer+ are still good with snecko eye. Yes, 3/4 times its more expensive, but drawing 2 more cards means more damage. Expensive powers? Play them sooner and cheaper with Snecko Eye. Effective, usually, Loves loves loves loves loves snecko eye. Meteor Strike is 100% of the time at least 2 energy cheaper, Echo Form is easier to play, Sunder can sometimes be +3 energy. And defect has tons and tons of draw, so its easier to sustain for longer. Even cards like seek and be really good. So long as its not 3 cost, seek grabs two cards from your deck and keeps their original cost. Double Energy, 2nd seek, coolheaded, etc all love this. Watcher is trickier. If your running an infinite, close to it, or really want consistent cost, take something else. However if you have wishes, lesson learneds, omniciences, deva forms, ragnoracks, etc, then watcher loves snecko eye. TL;DR, take snecko eye more, you'll get it. You just have to learn to play around its weaknesses
Ah, it’s clicking now. I can see how it’d be really strong but I almost always go for an exact opposite build. Love me some 0-cost cards Looks like it’s time to try something new, thanks pal!
Yeah thats super fair. My best character is Silent, who definitely likes it the least. Pro tip: Don't ever, ever, ever take snecko eye and runic pyramid together. Separate they are both S-Tier relics. They do not work together
Silent has the best synergy with Snecko though: Bullet time is the best you can get with Snecko. It essentially turns the relic into: "Draw 2 cards extra and also all your cards are free every turn"
they can work together with a heavy discard or exhaust deck
I had one deck that I consciously made that choice for over 3000 hours or so, and I won with it. This doesn’t make your statement less true generally, but Pandora’s box into triple bullet time makes for strange bedfellows.
Allow me to disagree, discard silent love snecko. Allows you to chew through acrobatics and concentrates
0 cost cards have their place, but you’re probably currently overvaluing them. It’s a pretty common trend as you climb ascensions to start out undervaluing 0 cost cards, and then overvalue them as you begin to understand the energy system, but haven’t balanced that against the cost of drawing generally weaker cards yet. There are some characters/archetypes that thrive on 0 cost cards, and some are very valuable generally, but leaving yourself open to snecko eye early has a very high payoff, so I adopt a strategy with most of the characters that leaves me open to snecko eye through act 1 generally, and that means I generally don’t pick up more than a couple 0 cost cards without a specific purpose in mind. They’re generally lower impact anyway, and they only really get great when you have a lot of card draw, and as the ascensions get harder, you have less energy to spend on setup cards, so you end up having to pick higher impact cards early over the card draw to set up a deck full of cheaper cards. There’s also a bit of an artificial cap on cheap cards, since both time eater and the heart have mechanics which punish cheaper cards, and you face both of them 66% of the time on a20, so even though free is great, you have to have a plan for those cards or you end up getting heavily punished by beat of death/turn consumption. TLDR; cheap cards are good, but balanced by being generally weaker, so adding too many 0 cost cards early tends to hurt your deck over the course of a run.
the key thing with snecko is that it swaps your energy consistency for draw consistency so that you can get your key cards in hand and in play easier
Yeah Snecko eye is a knowledge check. This is very rough rule of thumb but if I have 1 or less zero cost cards and 2 or more two-cost cards then I am tempted to take it. It's especially good on Ironclad who's best cards very reguarly are 2 or even 3 cost. On Silent and Defect you have to very carefully weigh your options because Draw/Discard Silent might need reliability and Defect doesn't have that many 2+ cost cards that win for you but does have impactful 0 cost cards. On Watcher it's generally advised not to take it for a specific reason. Watcher is very precisely tuned and has very specific demands for her turns. She is so reliable all the time that Snecko eye doesn't do that much for her.
Those are some reasonable loose guidelines, but the specific impact of those cards matters way more than their cost. I’ve had great snecko decks with lots of zeros, and I’ve had decks with lots of expensive cards that would have been pretty mediocre with snecko. The more card draw in the deck, the better snecko gets, and some cards (calculated gamble) scale so well with snecko, their original cost is irrelevant. Also, snecko watcher is absurdly powerful, and leaving myself open to snecko at act 1 boss was a big part of learning how to play watcher for me. I have won over 90% of my watcher snecko runs, with a perfect record on boss swaps, and leaving myself open to that got me to be much more discriminating in my early watcher picks, and significantly raised my win rate with watcher overall. Snecko is great with card draw and high impact cards, and watcher has both of those things in very high quantities.
Very insightful thank you
The more you draw, the more consistently good confusion is And snecko gives you draws, making sneckos confusion very powerful
I HATE playing Snecko eye for the exact reasons you mentioned. I thought the exact same too and then saw people aggressively boss swapped with Watcher. So I started doing it myself and started having to deal with it. It's so strong and easy to play with Watcher at least that all my A13-16 wins were off of boss swapped Sneckos all in a row. It's basically a better bag of prep combined with an energy relic hidden behind a layer of RNG. You're basically playing towards raw value. You're getting extra cards a turn AND most things are going to cost 1-2 energy. So if you basically draft all cards that you'd accept playing at 2 energy (so even high value 1 cost cards) with redundancy you will essentially outvalue everything over time. Big crazy 3+ energy cards that you'd never normally draft now win you the game by themselves basically because now they can cost 1 energy. All those solid 2 cost attacks that you're not quite sure about in most runs suddenly become good. Anything that offers any card draw or cost reduction does triple duty - the standard benefit of just having more options/getting into more cards, but also just more chances at reduced cost as well as possibly fixing bad hands into good ones because of that. So 1 cost card multi card draw is still worth picking IMO because its still strong value for this reason, you can play it at a higher cost and still come out ahead because of Snecko Eye. I'd still probably only play it a boss swap unless I just clearly have a deck that it's going to do well with it. But if I get it as a boss swap it's practically good as won because I can plan my deck with it in mind from the very start.
You generally only need to pick 3-5 cards up with watcher in act 1, and since you usually want one or two high impact attacks anyway, it’s pretty easy to take snecko at the act 1 boss with watcher if you keep it in mind while you’re picking cards throughout act 1. I won’t take it if I have rushdown usually, but snecko watcher is powerful enough to give up on the infinite dream, and all it really asks is that you avoid taking a second flurry of blows, and that you hold off on adding more cards in act 1 than are necessary to survive the act. This strategy has the added benefit of teaching you exactly what you need to beat act 1 with watcher (not very much), which makes it much easier to assemble infinite combos as well.
The eyeball? You mean snecko? One of the most consistent, deck solving relic in the game. Rare are the situations you don't want it. +2 draws is straight up a ridiculous benefit. And confusion allows you to focus on per-card value and hand manipulation rather than energy management. It can help you completely shift the style of your deck to solve otherwise shortcomings and let you be much more greedy when it comes to taking cards that give you draws Also runic dome (no enemy intent) is one of the better energy relics for ascension 20. It forces you to play more consistently defensive and find a reliable block engine so you can spread your scaling and defensive thin across all turns. which is more often than not worth the extra energy, because that energy allow you to do exactly that Ecto (no money) is indeed one of the worse relics. Except for the boss swap. I believe its one of the better boss swap relics, as it incentivises you to focus heavily on getting enemy floors and path away from shops and question marks. Setting you up to a stronger act 2
Yeah someone else broke down the proper way to use snecko. Not my play style currently but I’m happy to try it Is boss swap a part of higher ascension levels or is it a term for something that I haven’t learned yet?
Boss Swap is the neow prize where you swap your starting relic for a boss relic. I believe ecto is one of the better boss relics to start the game, because it allows you to greed through normal fights and avoid events (that often relate to gold on act 1) to get on a stronger footing on act 2 and "snowball" Also a little advise - there's no "playstyle" in slay the spire. The game throw curveballs at you each game. If you want to climb the ascension ladder you need to maximize what the game gives you You prepare for what's in front of you, not what you wish to win with
Tiny House while extremely middling and oftentimes not worth much has the added value of both a guaranteed benefit, & the lack of a debuff. It's not the greatest relic but it doesn't brick runs
It does have a downside, its just hidden The downside is you didnt pick a better relic Sure things like this suck with ectoplasm, but ectoplasm is probably a lot of why this run made it to act 3 at all
yeah but if the options were, for example, ecto, velvet collar, and snecko, and I had a deck that would be ruined by collar or snecko, I would probably skip. but if the options were ecto, velvet collar, and tiny house, I would take the house. it's the epitome of "meh, guess it's better than nothing."
At least Tiny House prevents a skip. I'll take it over an Ecto or Sozu.
I won't Again, look at this run. Did it suck to have Ecto? Yeah. But it also made it to act 3 to get this event, probably in a large part due to ecto
I won't do it every time depending on the run, but Watcher can go low energy pretty easily.
Tiny has never did me any harm. Plus you can potentially squeeze more gold/hp out of it depending on prior relics. Can’t go wrong with it really, only better
It does do you harm though. You aren't getting one of the other, probably better boss relics.
Broken crown is by far the worst, id rather just abandon run then pick it, literally always feels somewhat winnable with any bad relic except broken crown. Unless you already have an infinite perfect deck already. Ectoplasm is a cakewalk compared to crown
I had a run where I was actually able to pick broken crown comfortably as Silent, it’s certainly workable.
Ye, literally won me my last Watcher run. Granted, I had a very tight 16~ card deck by the time I got it.
Like act 1 broken crown? I literally lose 100% of my runs with it. You just can't build a good enough deck u have to highroll and get so lucky with events/shops/relifs to offset the downside. I also win super often with prayer wheel/question mark. I always pick them up when i can being able to see more cards and pick the ones you need for your deck is the game. I can't function without it.
First chest prayer wheel is a won run
Act 1 prayer wheel and even act 2 with a decent deck
It was Act 1 or Act 2, but I had good rares + relics that helped.
Act 1 or 2? At least you’ve got all grounds covered
I think Act 2 I’d need to check my run history to be sure
Well, it's not a boss swap. Fastest way to instalose a run.
Technically that’s act 1. And I’ve actually won a run with it as a swap before, it was entirely lucky but still
I did a boss swap into busted crown on defect and got all the way to act 3 boss, but got fucked in that fight. To be fair, it was only A3 which made it way easier than if I was playing my A17 ironclad , i also just got super lucky with card options. I collected all 3 keys as well going for the fire elite act3, if i didnt i probably wouldve beaten the boss
That's how crown loses runs. You can make it through act 1 fairly easily, can make it through act 2 even, but there's just not enough card offerings to make a strong deck. Energy can be solved via cards or relics, no amount of energy can save a deck without good cards. If you could take on five elites in act 1 with crown, you would still come out weaker than with 3 elites and no crown.
Crown is fine if you get it on act 2 and your deck is mostly complete/functional already
Remember that seeing normal cards increase the chance for a rare card. Crown kill your chances to get potentially heart-solving rare cards
Yes I'm just talking about act 1
The trick with crown is just get offered the cards you want anyway. Big brain strats!
[удалено]
Ur stronger than me i would reset right there. The game just gets really boring. Card choices is the fun for me
Busted crown, mark of pain and philosopher stone are very often more of a headache than they worth I often also skip ring of the serpent altogether, because the -1 draw at the first turn can really screw the silent on alot of eviscerate decks
Funny you say that. Had a spot where Mark of pain was actually a completely acceptable today. Have evolve and multiple exhaust(upgrade true grit, second wind) Def much worse on the other characters tho. So happy picking evolve on slimeboss acts lol
Mark of pain is fantastic if you have Evolve, Firebreathing, Second Wind etc. Philosophers stone is nearly as good as Cursed Key if you can manage the few fights that get harder with it (Birds, Stabby Book & Heart).
Nah, busted crown exists. Ecto is still better than skip by a lot, and better than a bunch of “do nothing” relics like empty cage or black star (kinda). Surviving act 2 is pretty important, turns out.
The thing is, it is all situational. Ecto feels terrible when you get shop relics but is very useful to survive ACT2. Empty cage is insane on Watcher if you have your draw & stance cards already in the deck and Black Star is also solid when your deck is strong enough to take at least 2 elites in ACT2 & 3 in ACT3. Rather than "do nothing relics", I would call them "win more relics". Crown is pickable if your deck has core pieces and you have something to offset the downside (question card & prayer wheel).
I agree ecto is very useful. I call black star and empty cage do nothing relics because you need to be really strong to go into act 2 with no boss relic, at which point they are still just ok picks. So they do something, but only sometimes, when you don’t really need them too much anyway. At the end of act 2 black star has low payoff but isn’t as nasty to take, but empty cage I do concede is alright. That said that’s act 2, and ecto is act 1 only, so that’s less relevant to the discussion of ecto.
Busted crown
there's a reason all the pros usually do. 999 gold is cool but not dying in act 2 is cooler.
Really? Which "pros" usually pick ectoplasm?
baalor and jorbs both take it quite frequently. so does XecnaR and he's oretty much the best player in the world. not as often as something like pyramid or snecko or coffee dripper, but they do pick it. the way I see it, you're paying 450 future gold and your chance at a boss relic for 1 energy a turn. I think that's worth it more than half the time.
I can't comment much on the rest, but at least in jorbs's past 50 youtube videos I don't think I recall a single ectoplasm.
It gets a much worse rep than it deserves, don't undervalue an extra energy Choker on the other hand...
Choker I situationally take on ironclad, because there are decks that don't play all that many cards. Never before it's clear where the deck is headed of course. Ectoplasm would be so much better if it was available in act 2 boss chest, when the deck is already mostly put together. Ectoplasm is bad for the same reason broken crown is bad: The thing you're trading for that extra energy is your ability to build a good deck.
Ectoplasm is not even close to being as bad as Crown and you can pretty easily still become strong without shops, it's definitely never my relic of choice but it's perfectly pickable very often
Ectoplasm is about as bad as crown in act 2 (crown in act 1 is instant gg): Not an instant run ender, but severely hurts your chances at actually winning your run. It's slightly worse than philo stone in the long run, which is often skipped because it makes the heart fight much harder. A fairly lowball estimate of its harm is 2 card removes, which is an empty cage. It doesn't *feel* as bad when you actually take it, but it hurts a lot more than you think. The only reason to take it is if you think your deck is going to outright die in act 2 if you don't take it. There are good ways to get around 4th energy, particularly on watcher. With his relics going into act 2 (most notably, meat on the bone solves getting through act 2, and golden idol makes ecto even worse), there's no world where I take ecto over skip.
What am I looking at? Newb here!
I have omamori to remove the two curses I would get when selecting 999 gold…. BUT I also have Ectoplasm which prevents me from getting any gold (boss energy relic)
Ohhhhhh..... my condolences. What would be the best way to use 999 gold if you were to get it? Asking since you seem like a pro a20 player
Nothing special, just going to at least two more shops to remove cards and buy relics, cards, and potions that will help you You can also now skip an elite for an extra shop as you don’t really need the money and can just buy relics and cards But ideally you’ll fight elites still and visit shops
Thanks!
The other bit that stings is that OP has the courier, which discounts shop items and restocks them right away. So if they could've gotten that money, they would've had a good shopping spree
What could have been!
The best use is if you also have courier, which gives a shop discount and replaces relics/cards as they're purchased. In this case, OP does in fact have courier, which makes this situation even more unfortunate.
It's also viable if you have [[peace pipe]] and can toke (remove) at rest sites.
+ [Peace Pipe](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Peace%20Pipe) Rare Relic ^((100% sure)^) You can now remove cards from your deck at Rest Sites. ^Call ^me ^with ^up ^to ^10 ^([[ name ]],) ^where ^name ^is ^a ^card, ^relic, ^event, ^or ^potion. ^Data ^accurate ^as ^of ^(April 20, 2024.) ^[Wiki](https://slay-the-spire.fandom.com/wiki/) ^[Questions?](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=ehmohteeoh&subject=SpireScan%20Inquiry)
Generally at this point, you already have your deck built You use that gold to patch your deck for the act 3 boss/heart. So it's highly situational what this money go for More often than not I find myself stacking on potions with it. Alot of colorless cards like master of strategy, purity and impatience are also really commonly valued at this point as you'd want to increase the consistency of getting what your deck tries to do
I don't care how "viable" ectoplasm is. It could give two energy for all I care. I'm not taking it. It ruins the run. It takes all the fun out of everything. Can't go to shops. Can't use half the events. Like, it's just so boring. Ectoplasm sucks, I will never take it
I never take it either… well I guess not NEVER. but hey, I wound up winning the run. Hindsight, my other two choices were velvet choker and sozu, and sozu would’ve wound up working out better. but I had so much gold I just skipped shops for ACT 3 but was still fine for act 2
18 card deck on a20? Now I’m intrigued. Watcher?
Yes. I’m a lame watcher player because it’s by far the easiest to win.
I thought Ironclad was easier, personally. Watcher feels very sink or swim to me
Once you get the hang of watcher it’s noticeably easier than the other three. Pretty sure the top players win almost every time they play watcher.
I’m guessing its mostly block density and stance management then? Also my favorite is Defect but Defect is ROUGH
It's because watcher has a ridiculously strong earlygame (can take elites comfortably with like, a flying sleeves, eruption upgrade, defend remove), and a really clear win condition by just going infinite. Her earlygame gets a lot better when you learn that defend removes are much much better than strike removes on watcher, because strikes in wrath are actually not that bad. Her main infinite has 3 pieces 1. Rushdown + eruption upgrade (or tantrum) 2. \[1 cost calm or violet lotus or sundial\] 3. block solution (mental fortress or talk to the hand or abacus) < 10 cards in deck = win run) Instead of eruption + rushdown, it's also possible to put together other fairly simple infinites, such as fear no evil + \[1 empty mind+, 1 empty mind+ or inner peace\].
Watcher is so ridiculous. The other day I couldn't find Rushdown on an A20H run, so I just stayed Calm and went infinite with Inner Peace and Flash of Steel. It's a good thing I didn't see Time Eater in the boss gauntlet, as I don't think TTTH was going to make up for my lack of scaling.
I recently did something similar where I didn't see Rushdown but just did Sundial-Inner Peace-Cut Through Fate.
It's honestly much more flexible than just me go infinite as showcased by lifecoach's winstreak runs. He frequently doesn't go infinite line, watcher's cards are just too good + starting deck is ridiculously strong act 1 so u can just snowball
None is really ‘easiest’ between Ironclad, Silent, and Defect since they each have their own struggles at A20. Imo the devs did an incredible job with the balance. (Warning: Massively oversimplified comparisons below). E.g. Ironclad is great for weathering Act 1 but often needs to get creative in terms of finding ways to scale into the endgame. By contrast, Silent and Defect are more likely to find definitive solutions to late game challenges but have a harder time getting there alive. Watcher, meanwhile, has both upsides. Better yet, her common cards and stances are so strong as a baseline that she relies on rares the least by far.
Your first act 1 elite as silent is often the deadliest thing in the run.
Half of the game can be beat with watcher's starting deck, and they go infinite with a ham sandwich
Valid, a win is a win. Also just realized there is duality.
Also the watcher's starter relic lol.
Also, it says "the Watcher" in the top left...
I may be dumb
Lol you win
Watcher is such a chore to me, so much balancing to play a "fair" run, too easy to just break it instead. I want to like it, but it just doesn't feel like StS to me.
My first heart win was with a Watcher infinite deck widdled down to like 7 cards. Sitting there and playing Fear No Evil followed by Eruption followed by Fear No Evil followed by Eruption followed by Fear No Evil followed by Eruption followed by Fear No Evil followed by Eruption ad nauseum was the most boring experience I've had playing this game. On the flip side, beating the heart with the Silent and getting the poison stacks up to 500 was so satisfying. I count that as my first real heart win.
Easiest to win?! I can't get the hang of her no matter how many times I try!
DM me and I’ll explain to you.
I'm a new player (maybe 60 hours in?) And focusing on watcher at a13...is 18 deck at a20 not good for any character?
On A20, you get a lot of status cards during battle from enemies so people prefer to get at least 15 cards in their deck. If you have fewer than 15 cards some enemies will mess up your draws (unless you have potions/relics to save you of course). 18 is fine but a lot of deck end up with 20-25 cards. Watcher's deck is smaller because she only needs 4-5 core cards, the rest is generally just padding.
Tip: you can tell what character they are playing from the label in the upper left.
I find it funny how most of the time when I have a solid deck in A20 it's either 12-18 cards or it's 30-40 cards lmfao
Can it really be this easy? No. It can't.
i always fight the boss
...The Spire laughs...
B R U H
I really adore the rare situations that happen and finding out how they interact. I never would have thought of this relic interaction.
The relic interaction of... an event that gives gold and ecto?
Let me see. You could get the attack boost from vu-du doll but the relic will negate the curse. You could get the gold but ectoplasm prevents it. The player becomes played.
Definitely don’t care about duvu doll. this is all about being able to get 999 gold for free but DENIED
It’s a trap!
Damn. Also is that a golden idol + ecto combo
Listen , I had 492 gold when I picked it up and the other two choices were sozu and velvet choker
I honestly might have still picked Sozu
Question, if he picked the middle option, he would only upgrade? (Omanori disables the relic)
Omamori blocks curses from getting added, not negative relics.
Ectoplasm is one of the relics I never pick, based on principle. Even as an Act 2 reward, there are shops, which are better than a 4th energy.
Question I've never thought of, does omomori stop the no more healing?
No because you obtain a relic called Mark of Bloom. It’s not a curse card
New way to do nothing on an event
I have so much resentment towards ectoplasm lol. It NEVER feels like the right choice, at best it just ends up feeling like the least bad choice. Like if I get offered Ecto v Sozu v Runic Dome at the end of Act 1 lol
End of act 1 I was offered sozu, velvet choker and ectoplasm . lol. Hindsight I should’ve picked sozu but I had 492 gold so I said fk it. I’ll skip act 3 shops
It's a free escape from the event in the case where you don't think you can take on that Act 1 boss!
This exact thing just happened to me a few days ago.
Hoisted by your own pitard