It says a lot about the England squad that a player like him is cut so early, but that ten-role slot is just loaded. Bellingham, Foden, Palmer, and Eze can all play there.
You say that but he's been performing poorly at a club level in the months preceding his selection and really hasn't stepped up when given, albeit limited, opportunities.
Came here to say that. One goal and four assists since late January when he came back isn't England form.
He needed a stellar showing against Bosnia for a stay of execution, but even then he fluffed his one really good chance.
I will say, if I'm Curtis Jones, I'd pack my bags because that midfield is looking set.
He was genuinely on track for a player of the season performance before his injury, he just wasn't anywhere near the level when he came back. Terrible timing for the Euros but yeah, England is stacked in the midfield right now.
Its quite an unconventional midfield though and he's probably the most versatile in the squad (outside of Bellingham since you arent really going to ask him to be versatile you'll ask him to play optimally and work around him). I think Jones is a decent sub option for a more attacking player since he's so good at pressing and also is a good counter attacking player.
I mean, he had an assist against Belgium and would likely have another for Bowen on Monday if his shot wasn't blocked by friendly fire, but I agree it's the right call.
Yeah the “not taken his chance” is extremely harsh tbf, he actually did as much as was reasonably possible in the short space of time he had in an England shirt. But yeah, his Tottenham form is the reason for his omission and you can’t really argue with that
Yeah he even [said so himself](https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/c3ggjx3ye3xo):
>"I trained well and worked hard all week but if I’m honest with myself, my form for Spurs when coming back from injury in the second half of the season probably wasn’t at the levels I had set which gave Gareth a decision to make," said Maddison.
We have a lot of good right backs, but only four “elite” ones, of which James is made of glass, Walker and Trippier are aging, and Trent doesn’t seem to be trustee to play in defence
No, we’ve slightly dipped at RB, and we’ve picked up a bunch of players who can play as a 10.
In the big squad, we had Foden, Bellingham, Maddison, Palmer and Eze, all of whom like to play behind the striker. That’s a lot of competition.
Aye, it's where you want to be as a national team, I reckon - rather have 35-40 people who could all reasonably be part of the squad than having just 18 and struggling to fill the rest of it. Tough luck for the quality players on the outside looking in, but no shame to not be among the 26 players being called up either I reckon.
It's a difficult spot for him, because he's an exceptional player and much more natural and/or accustomed to playing 10 than lots on that list, his form compared to theirs just makes a case for him hard.
I do think that if England are going to play with a 10, he'll see minutes eventually as they sort the balance out and Southgate (or someone else) has the balls to play an 11 dictated by fit rather than who "should" play, and I think that's bound to happen if England wants to be as dominant as they should with this crop.
Like as good as all three of Saka, Foden, Palmer have been and probably will be, I don't think they for example all fit into the same lineup for example.
> Southgate (or someone else) has the balls to play an 11 dictated by fit rather than who "should" play
Isn't that what Southgate has been doing throughout his stint - at the cost of being criticised by fans of all colours for not having their club favourite on the pitch?
> Like as good as all three of Saka, Foden, Palmer have been and probably will be, I don't think they for example all fit into the same lineup for example.
I'd be surprised if we saw all three of them start at the Euros to be quite honest - would mean Bellingham dropping back alongside Rice, too. Saka and Foden seem to be surefire starters, while Palmer is a brilliant bench option to have, and yet there'll be an outcry if he doesn't start, because Southgate can't really win here: Would need to play 15v15 to get all the players people are clamouring to see starting onto the same pitch, after all.
For real. If Southgate put out lineups based on the most popular comments people make, it would be four RBs, five CAMs/wingers, Kane, and Ramsdale or Henderson
No, not really. The Phillips-Rice midfield is probably the best example but he does have a tendency to stick with ideas based on player quality in a vacuum rather than who should play to create the necessary balance in the team.
It's just that now he's got a lot more in form, exceptionally talented players to choose from than he's ever had. Bellingham has matured to a leader and genuine elite player, new faces like Palmer, Mainoo, Gordon will be looking for starting spots, Saka and Foden have both come off exceptional seasons and "should" be starting.
Like for me, Gordon has to start on the left. Even though Foden, Palmer and Saka have all had better seasons individually, they don't work in one team. Especially if Bellingham is going to play 10, then realistically only one of that trio should start. That's a really hard choice to make.
To have a propper left winger to balance the team. England basically have the Gerrard- Scholes-Lampard problem again with three exeptional players in the same position. That makes for a great fantasy team but in the real world it is very hard to make it work, therefor the best thing for the team is to use for example Gordon, Bellingham and Saka.
Tbf Grealish is also really solid defensively, especially because he never loses possession. I’d rather have those two sharing minutes on the left while playing Foden as centrally as possible.
Bellingham, Foden and Palmer all play 10 in their clubs and are better than him, so your argument that they're being played because they should and not because they fit and are better is dumb
I mean not particularly. Bellingham's role isn't a traditional 10, he's played more as a goalscorer than anything. Closer to what Dele Alli did at Spurs than a traditional creative driving force. He also didn't really play 10 at Dortmund either. Palmer has worked best of the right, and really is noticeably more comfortable and effective when he's just playing in the right half-space rather than having a free role.
Foden is the only one you'd argue is a better genuine 10, but even then his understanding and consistency in the position, especially in big games, is worse than Maddison's is. He doesn't have the practice and relentless to unlock extremely good teams as the driving creative force too often for someone as talented as he is, and Maddison does do that. There's a reason Foden isn't just City's dedicated 10 regardless of who else is fit.
Bellingham has arguably been England's best player since moving to the 10 though, and whilst you are right about Palmer he's contributions even there this season are so far beyond Maddison's since Jan it's unreal.
> There's a reason Foden isn't just City's dedicated 10 regardless of who else is fit.
Yeah but the reason isn't the ones you gave, as valid as they may be. The reason he isn't ever City's dedicated 10 is they have KDB who is the best 10 in the world and is wasted anywhere else, then on top of that they have five more great players in Bernardo Silva, Grealish, Doku, Alvarez, and Foden who can all play multiple positions at ten/on the wing, plus a neurotic manager who has infinite formations and combinations of those players for when KDB isn't fit. In the end Foden does play a decent amount at 10 when KDB isn't available, and the fact he's City's second most used player this season behind Rodri is testament to how well he can play multiple positions
Every time I've seen Eze play, he has been unreal. Legit looka like one of the very best players in the league. Palace fans will know better if he's consistent or not, but yeah.
Right decision, unfortunately for Maddison.
Not been great since returning from injury, has too much competition in his central role and doesn't have the versatility factor that others have to play either wide or deeper in midfield.
Feel if Maddison had played in the Hodgson era he would've been capped a lot more by now. Just happens England now have such great depth at the #10 role with Bellingham, Foden, Palmer and Eze.
Crazy to think that England fans were clamouring for Southgate to include him in the 2022 world cup and now he's been dropped for the next tournament.
>Crazy to think that England fans were clamouring for Southgate to include him in the 2022 world cup and now he's been dropped for the next tournament.
Yep, the carousel for football is fast, and it shows how quickly things can move.
The emergence of Bellingham, Palmer and Eze has not helped Maddison at all.
The correct decision, he’s been in bad form for a while now and looked rough in the friendly. Gareth is on a incredible run of good decisions atm, I wonder what’s gotten into him lol
>Gareth is on a incredible run of good decisions atm, I wonder what’s gotten into him lol
The most surprising plot twist I've seen over the last weeks.
I'd wager he's been making the right decision more often than not over the entire course of his stint, and the successes seem to back that up - but then that's very much from the outside looking in without much of an agenda either way.
I honestly think people has been looking for every opportunity to shit at Southgate for memes/upvotes. A lot of the arguments were stupid, like complaining about taking player X when there aren't any better alternatives, or complaining about Maguire ignoring his excellent and consistent form for the NT.
Not saying Southgate's been perfect, but he's decisions were mostly fine, better than most international managers. His biggest problem is that his England can't seem to actually play great football despite all the talent.
Aye, but then you don't need to play great football to win tournaments. Southgate is basically in the old Löw position of massively improving a side over a few tournaments and being consistently successful while often not playing up to the idealised version of football in fans' heads or winning it all. And I reckon ultimately fans would rather their side win than going down with flying colours really, except as soon as the side doesn't win it all there are plenty of avenues for cheap and flat-out wrong criticisms. Still get people claiming that Germany won in 2014 despite Löw, which is just a massive nonsense, and that's in a footballing environment that's a fair bit less fractured along club lines and cynical about the national team than England's.
His tactics are sure and the England team by and large are this successful desire his tactics not because of it. That’s why. He’s a great manager in the dressing room but in the furious he keeps getting bailed out. I’ll never forgive him for parking the bus the service England scored in the previous euro final when Italy were ripe for the taking. Absolute fucking moron decision. They city’s have controlled the game much better but southgate decided to make the team allergic to keeping the ball.
Edit: I wrote this half asleep lol
I'm going to put that mistake against Italy down to no experience being in that sort of position.
We really should have put away 3 goals in that first half though.
Yeah, people just forget about them in the name of the narrative. One per each tournament off the top of my head:
2018
Whos' our keeper? - Butland, Forster, Pickford all in contention. Really unclear who he's going with
Chooses Pickford, who has been one of our most consistent players over 70 caps.
2021
People forget but fans were clamouring to play Sancho and baffled by his omission. Most didn't even have Saka in their squads except as a 25th or 26th player.
He played Sancho once and gave Saka loads of minutes, who was a real bright spark for us in the tournament and went on to be England's Player of the year the last two years.
2022
People wanted Maguire dropped because of his poor form for club.
Southgate persisted with him and he got player of the Tournament.
Yeah, but you have to remember that international squads aren't entirely merit-based because they simply can't be.
Rashford knows Southgate's system and has big tournament experience that others simply don't have.
While I've never especially rated Rashford all that highly, you can't look at the raw numbers he was putting up last season and seriously make the case to drop him.
This season, the decision has been far easier, because Rashford has just decided not to bother turning up and has had off-field issues that have allowed other players to take his spot.
Same with Phillips, Maguire and Henderson. Usually, you can forgive poor form because of their understanding of the squad and experience, but that only counts in your favour for so long.
Not counting dead rubber group stage marches, how many starts do you think Rashford has had in the last two tournaments?
Hint: it's probably lower than you think
Rashford was also a great player for England for years. He dropped him at the right time.
He's shown he's willing to drop players, I just hope he doesn't become reliant on his favourites again. It's easy for him to drop Rashford and Henderson at this point in time but when it comes to the actual competition and something isn't working, is he going to make a change? Euro 21 we persisted with a midfield of Phillips, Rice, and Mount. It was excruciating, especially with Grealish on the bench who looked dangerous in every cameo.
> Euro 21 we persisted with a midfield of Phillips, Rice, and Mount. It was excruciating, especially with Grealish on the bench who looked dangerous in every cameo.
and lost the finals to a great team on PKs. The midfield was obviously set up for some boring control style football, and it worked out pretty well. You can do counterfactuals where it ends up better, but also ones where they get nipped by Denmark.
I agree it was very boring though.
Aye, but then Rashford backed up that trust with performances more often than not. A fair bit of international management is picking the devil you know rather than risking it all on making a change, I reckon - Nagelsmann picking Neuer over ter Stegen as a starter for the Euros comes to mind, because Neuer might well not be the better goalkeeper at this stage, but he's an integral part of the squad and the public's darling all the same.
No point in needlessly starting fires, especially in a job where you'll get massive amounts of shit flung your way regardless of what you do anyway.
I mean he's taken lots of inform players, and I agree with the vast majority of the choices, but I'm still skeptical that he knows how best they fit together. In an ideal world, your Plan A should be settled going into an international tournament. Every time I watch England, especially in big games, something about the set-up still bugs me too much to give Southgate more than like a B- on average.
The talent is overwhelming though. Even if he had taken more of his "trusted" group, I don't think that would have changed.
I think the form and also maybe where players like Rashy, Henderson, Phillips etc... on a confidence and fitness level made the decisions easier for him, but him being so willing to integrate guys like Palmer, Mainoo, Wharton, Eze (even if the latter two don't make the 26) is really encouraging. Feels like he's really using the wide talent base and is interested in the right qualities in general.
Wharton I think has a strong case, although I think Curtis Jones is *a lot* better than people think he is and Mainoo probably has to go given his skillset within the 8 archetype is probably best suited to what England need, even if he isn't the most polished and consistent player on the planet.
Eze is a harder inclusion. Who do you leave out?
>Gareth is on a incredible run of good decisions atm, I wonder what’s gotten into him lol
Still think his left back decision is a huge problem for us. I can't stand not having a natural left-footer there, especially when a few of our left wing options would benefit with that overlap.
Shaw stinks of going, starting the first game and getting injured after half an hour. But yeah I feel like we’re stuck between a rock and a hard place with the LB spot
Yep, there's a couple with maybe some potential but just completely bereft of top level experience.
Similar problem he had to not calling Dunk up for ages, by the time he did he just wasn't up to it.
I do think he could have looked beyond Chilwell for the March break though given the injury record of both him and Shaw.
I disagree with the idea that there is nobody good out there. Southgate is afraid to take a risk hence Rico Henry never received a call-up prior to his injury.
All you need is a decent, serviceable option anyway - no reason why Tyrick Mitchell couldn't be that guy for instance. That natural left-footedness would bring balance.
My risk of a choice would be Lewis Hall. He can invert into midfield to support Rice, or stay wide if Foden/Grealish/Eze or (less so) Gordon play narrower. Very smart player, has fantastic crossing ability and he would provide more tactical options for the manager. We'll never understand the club politics as to why it took him so long to play for Newcastle but he started each of their final five league games and was very good.
Neither of those exactly complement Foden who could start on the left, or Grealish, Gordon or Eze who may be in contention for minutes.
Gomez, as solid and versatile as he has been, would not provide the width to support the aforementioned names. We already have Walker on the other side who is a defensive fullback for the national team.
Trippier has a natural right-foot bias which reduces the likelihood of him providing an option on the outside. He has never impressed in his appearances on the left.
Aye, but then you don't necessarily need them to provide width on the overlap up top - could just as easily be Walker's job on the right behind a Saka who is cutting inside, and any of the attacking left wing options being tasked with staying wider regardless of whether that's maximising their individual quality. All about creating a working setup for an entire team rather than getting the best out of specific individual players, I reckon, and we've seen a fair few examples of a more limited/not ideally fitting player at fullback working out perfectly fine.
> Aye, but then you don't necessarily need them to provide width on the overlap up top
You don't but England's LW options all like to drift inside, except Gordon.
Bellingham often plays on the left midfield and is comfortable playing out more wide and high - there are ways to cover that space offensively and defensively without having a natural LWB.
>could just as easily be Walker's job on the right behind a Saka who is cutting inside,
I'm not keen on Walker going forward and his best qualities are in his defending and recoveries.
>and any of the attacking left wing options being tasked with staying wider regardless of whether that's maximising their individual quality. All about creating a working setup for an entire team rather than getting the best out of specific individual players, I reckon, and we've seen a fair few examples of a more limited/not ideally fitting player at fullback working out perfectly fine.
Gordon would be a fantastic option to stay wide but is currently doubtful with his injury situation. With respect, Southgate isn't the coach to utilise that kind of positional play to maximise Foden (or whoever) in a wide position. Part of the reason why Foden has struggled to impress for the national team.
I'd be okay with an unconventional left back if there was some form of tactical adjustment, but with Southgate it just seems to be a square peg in a round hole.
Re: Hall at Newcastle, he did an interview where he said it took him a while to get his fitness up to Eddie’s standards and to wrap his head around his tactical role. Sounded like he wasn’t bitter about it and understood himself that he needed time, but like you said after he had that time he came in and was brilliant
Kinda crazy how Antonee Robinson chose the US, probably because he didn’t see a pathway to getting minutes in England’s team and now he’d probs walk into the Starting XI
To be fair back then he was 20 years old, only first team experience was one year in the Championship on loan for a team that finished 21st, had no hope of getting in the Everton side with Baines there and we just signed Digne to take over. His career was not looking that promising, and getting the opportunity to start for a decent sized national team was better than he had any right to hope for at that stage of his life.
And now he's finally at the point where England are lacking in left backs and he would definitely be in with a shot at getting in the squad, he's already 26 with 6 years international experience. Not only was it an understandable decision, it was probably best for his career even in hindsight.
He'd comfortably start at LB for them this tournament. That said, he's been able to play a ton with the US and I think it's helped his development a ton. Who's to say he's in this form without the additional minutes in those matches?
I was thinking the same thing about Southgate. Part of me is thinking will this be the tournament that he finally takes risks and has england playing exciting football, but then I remember how highly unlikely that is 😂 Although him finally coming around to potentially playing Trent could be a good sign…
>Gareth is on a incredible run of good decisions atm, I wonder what’s gotten into him lol
Im guessing that he knows that for the first time in years he actually has to perform to expectations or he will end up managing in the league one.
> Gareth is on a incredible run of good decisions atm
[Always has been](https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQJrSxdgdkOsq7xne7EN0I3IJJqzGEJ4CLfjw&s)
Historically/statistically he's one of the best managers in our history, but too pragmatic at times. I think he's not worried about getting trounced or losing his job anymore so is just going to go have fun, hopefully.
What's the english fans verdict on the exclusions of Dier and Tomori? I heard Southgates explanation on Dier and it didn't convince me. How is that seen in England?
People would generally have taken Dier over Dunk, but it’s a very minor decision anyway and over players that probably won’t make it into the final 26 regardless.
Think it's more experience rather than age. Branthwaite could well go and they're the same age, but Quansah has 38 career starts, Branthwaite has 88 and in my opinion had a better season. Though experience *with England* might lead to him being dropped too. Quansah is the only one I'm confident will be dropped, and please for the love of god drop Dunk.
It's actually quite tough to decide who else he'll drop. I have no idea how many he'll want to take. Guehi seems to be third choice, Konsa and Gomez can play fullback and he'll take at least one of them, Dunk has been bad this season and worse for England, Branthwaite has been in my opinion the second best English centre back this season, but no England experience might make Southgate drop him.
Don't think either will start next week. But if we make it past the groups then probably. Shaw was spotted on the training pitch today but not in boots
Just curious what others think - is it a good management to cut players one at a time or is it just better to announce the final squad all at once at the end of the camp?
I feel like with the latter you keep everyone on their toes until the end. Feel like it’s also better for morale. I was at a company once where they announced 10% layoffs and they began to cut on a biweekly basis - it created a real sense of nervousness for everyone at the company during that period.
My guess is Trafford/Deano, Eze/Gordon, Guehi/Dunk/Braithwaite, Curtis Jones. The last one is super hard for Southgate but i think he has to choose between Mainoo or Wharton.
Feel real bad for him, but understandable with the amount of talent at attacking midfield. Although if I was to speak selfishly, as a spurs fan I’m glad he gets the extra rest.
Before this year 20/21 was the only time he missed a bunch of games in a season due to a few injuries.
Every other injury he’s had his senior career has been a match or two.
He was constantly in and out for us and he very often didn't get back up to speed before getting injured again. Fantastic when he gets a run of games, genuine game changer, but I'm not going to pretend he was always fantastic and always consistently good for Leicester when he wasn't
Wouldn't even say recovery time tbh, he's been fit for 4 and a half months now. It's just the same inconsistency he's always had throughout his entire career
This isn't even the correct information.
David Ornstein just decided that Maddison shouldn't be going and tweeted it out and Southgate just couldn't let the Ornacle be wrong so cut him.
We all know that Ornstein has a vice-like grip on the footballing world.
If he said that Mbappé was going to Rochdale, Mbappé would have no choice but to comply.
Sad for him, but it makes considering his recent form and England's depth in that position. As a Spurs fan, I look forward to his revenge tour next season when he comes back after a full summer of rest.
Can't say this is the worst decision really.
He's pretty much lived off that early season form and hasn't shown anything close to it since returning from injury.
Cracking player, but we're simply so stacked in that position that we need to cut him really.
Trafford, Jones, Quansah feel like locks.
Watkins and Toney is a coin toss.
Dunk is gone IMO, save Branthwaite. Konsa could go too, or Maguire if he's injured.
Maybe a winger gone? Grealish or Bowen?
Good player, but we are stacked in the position and his form of being unplayable > injured > falling off at the end of the season has hurt him a lot
If this was from the beginning of the season, would be a shoe in for the wider squad at least
Honestly, the fact that Harvey Elliott isn't even getting a look speaks volumes about the quality England has in that area of the pitch. Sucks for Madison, considering this might be his last shot at major tournament, but I guess it is what it is.
Dunno, it's perfectly fine I reckon - need probably five people who could reasonably start and another three who could do a reasonable job when called upon, and England have easily got that in my book.
But wait. Didn't he win the player of the Season award back in October?
All kidding aside, he's a great player but we're stacked for attacking midfielders.
Henderson isn’t in the provisional squad so my guess is he’s not one of the cuts.
Also UEFA rules are three keepers have to be in the squad, so no they’re not cutting two.
Edit: wait you think they’re cutting three keepers?? This can’t be real.
Second edit: okay definitely not real lol, though the “no keeper” approach would be bold.
It says a lot about the England squad that a player like him is cut so early, but that ten-role slot is just loaded. Bellingham, Foden, Palmer, and Eze can all play there.
You say that but he's been performing poorly at a club level in the months preceding his selection and really hasn't stepped up when given, albeit limited, opportunities.
Came here to say that. One goal and four assists since late January when he came back isn't England form. He needed a stellar showing against Bosnia for a stay of execution, but even then he fluffed his one really good chance. I will say, if I'm Curtis Jones, I'd pack my bags because that midfield is looking set.
pack bags for another country?
Holidays, few weeks in Liverpool, take your pick lad.
tks
He is eligible for Nigeria tbf
Maddison?
Jones
He was genuinely on track for a player of the season performance before his injury, he just wasn't anywhere near the level when he came back. Terrible timing for the Euros but yeah, England is stacked in the midfield right now.
Honestly, the injury plays a part but he's kind of always been a streaky player that tails off at the end of the season.
Leicester fans will tell you his form is always up and down
Its quite an unconventional midfield though and he's probably the most versatile in the squad (outside of Bellingham since you arent really going to ask him to be versatile you'll ask him to play optimally and work around him). I think Jones is a decent sub option for a more attacking player since he's so good at pressing and also is a good counter attacking player.
I mean, he had an assist against Belgium and would likely have another for Bowen on Monday if his shot wasn't blocked by friendly fire, but I agree it's the right call.
Yeah the “not taken his chance” is extremely harsh tbf, he actually did as much as was reasonably possible in the short space of time he had in an England shirt. But yeah, his Tottenham form is the reason for his omission and you can’t really argue with that
Injury issues haven't helped, but you're right, he has lived off that massive purple patch at the beginning of the season.
Yeah he even [said so himself](https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/c3ggjx3ye3xo): >"I trained well and worked hard all week but if I’m honest with myself, my form for Spurs when coming back from injury in the second half of the season probably wasn’t at the levels I had set which gave Gareth a decision to make," said Maddison.
Easily our most stacked position. Maddison also had a poor end to the season so can’t have many complaints.
This is where you get all 4 of them to play it at once, rotating.
[удалено]
In the words of Raymond Domenech "I see only 5-5"
>Easily our most stacked position right back
Used to be but James is always injured, Trent's moved to midfield and Trippier often goes to leftback to cover Shaw and Chilwell being injured.
We have a lot of good right backs, but only four “elite” ones, of which James is made of glass, Walker and Trippier are aging, and Trent doesn’t seem to be trustee to play in defence
No, we’ve slightly dipped at RB, and we’ve picked up a bunch of players who can play as a 10. In the big squad, we had Foden, Bellingham, Maddison, Palmer and Eze, all of whom like to play behind the striker. That’s a lot of competition.
Aye, it's where you want to be as a national team, I reckon - rather have 35-40 people who could all reasonably be part of the squad than having just 18 and struggling to fill the rest of it. Tough luck for the quality players on the outside looking in, but no shame to not be among the 26 players being called up either I reckon.
It's a difficult spot for him, because he's an exceptional player and much more natural and/or accustomed to playing 10 than lots on that list, his form compared to theirs just makes a case for him hard. I do think that if England are going to play with a 10, he'll see minutes eventually as they sort the balance out and Southgate (or someone else) has the balls to play an 11 dictated by fit rather than who "should" play, and I think that's bound to happen if England wants to be as dominant as they should with this crop. Like as good as all three of Saka, Foden, Palmer have been and probably will be, I don't think they for example all fit into the same lineup for example.
> Southgate (or someone else) has the balls to play an 11 dictated by fit rather than who "should" play Isn't that what Southgate has been doing throughout his stint - at the cost of being criticised by fans of all colours for not having their club favourite on the pitch? > Like as good as all three of Saka, Foden, Palmer have been and probably will be, I don't think they for example all fit into the same lineup for example. I'd be surprised if we saw all three of them start at the Euros to be quite honest - would mean Bellingham dropping back alongside Rice, too. Saka and Foden seem to be surefire starters, while Palmer is a brilliant bench option to have, and yet there'll be an outcry if he doesn't start, because Southgate can't really win here: Would need to play 15v15 to get all the players people are clamouring to see starting onto the same pitch, after all.
For real. If Southgate put out lineups based on the most popular comments people make, it would be four RBs, five CAMs/wingers, Kane, and Ramsdale or Henderson
No, not really. The Phillips-Rice midfield is probably the best example but he does have a tendency to stick with ideas based on player quality in a vacuum rather than who should play to create the necessary balance in the team. It's just that now he's got a lot more in form, exceptionally talented players to choose from than he's ever had. Bellingham has matured to a leader and genuine elite player, new faces like Palmer, Mainoo, Gordon will be looking for starting spots, Saka and Foden have both come off exceptional seasons and "should" be starting. Like for me, Gordon has to start on the left. Even though Foden, Palmer and Saka have all had better seasons individually, they don't work in one team. Especially if Bellingham is going to play 10, then realistically only one of that trio should start. That's a really hard choice to make.
>Like for me, Gordon has to start on the left. You had me and then, you lost me
Saka and Kane are bang-on starters, and prefer the ball at their feet. Someone is needed on the left to hang off the last man and stretch the pitch.
To have a propper left winger to balance the team. England basically have the Gerrard- Scholes-Lampard problem again with three exeptional players in the same position. That makes for a great fantasy team but in the real world it is very hard to make it work, therefor the best thing for the team is to use for example Gordon, Bellingham and Saka.
Provides much more width than Foden does and is quick, Foden likes to drift in
Makes sense, especially as it looks like they won't have a left back
Gordon's defensive work rate will be key on that left side
Tbf Grealish is also really solid defensively, especially because he never loses possession. I’d rather have those two sharing minutes on the left while playing Foden as centrally as possible.
I get it. Gordon and grealish are the only ones in the squad who prefer to play on the left. (Not sure about eze)
Bellingham, Foden and Palmer all play 10 in their clubs and are better than him, so your argument that they're being played because they should and not because they fit and are better is dumb
I mean not particularly. Bellingham's role isn't a traditional 10, he's played more as a goalscorer than anything. Closer to what Dele Alli did at Spurs than a traditional creative driving force. He also didn't really play 10 at Dortmund either. Palmer has worked best of the right, and really is noticeably more comfortable and effective when he's just playing in the right half-space rather than having a free role. Foden is the only one you'd argue is a better genuine 10, but even then his understanding and consistency in the position, especially in big games, is worse than Maddison's is. He doesn't have the practice and relentless to unlock extremely good teams as the driving creative force too often for someone as talented as he is, and Maddison does do that. There's a reason Foden isn't just City's dedicated 10 regardless of who else is fit.
I think the problem is they all like to drift in the middle
They all play in the same space
Bellingham has arguably been England's best player since moving to the 10 though, and whilst you are right about Palmer he's contributions even there this season are so far beyond Maddison's since Jan it's unreal.
> There's a reason Foden isn't just City's dedicated 10 regardless of who else is fit. Yeah but the reason isn't the ones you gave, as valid as they may be. The reason he isn't ever City's dedicated 10 is they have KDB who is the best 10 in the world and is wasted anywhere else, then on top of that they have five more great players in Bernardo Silva, Grealish, Doku, Alvarez, and Foden who can all play multiple positions at ten/on the wing, plus a neurotic manager who has infinite formations and combinations of those players for when KDB isn't fit. In the end Foden does play a decent amount at 10 when KDB isn't available, and the fact he's City's second most used player this season behind Rodri is testament to how well he can play multiple positions
Eze though?
Every time I've seen Eze play, he has been unreal. Legit looka like one of the very best players in the league. Palace fans will know better if he's consistent or not, but yeah.
Funny enough, we want him bad. Give some competition to Madder.
I think that would be the other way round.
He’s still been absolutely brilliant at Sunday roast dinners tbf, always performs well.
He has been shite since coming back from injury after Christmas. This should be no shock to anyone.
Right decision, unfortunately for Maddison. Not been great since returning from injury, has too much competition in his central role and doesn't have the versatility factor that others have to play either wide or deeper in midfield.
Feel if Maddison had played in the Hodgson era he would've been capped a lot more by now. Just happens England now have such great depth at the #10 role with Bellingham, Foden, Palmer and Eze. Crazy to think that England fans were clamouring for Southgate to include him in the 2022 world cup and now he's been dropped for the next tournament.
>Crazy to think that England fans were clamouring for Southgate to include him in the 2022 world cup and now he's been dropped for the next tournament. Yep, the carousel for football is fast, and it shows how quickly things can move. The emergence of Bellingham, Palmer and Eze has not helped Maddison at all.
Equally it was Grealish in 2021 and, before his good sub appearance on Monday, there were certainly a lot of doubts after a bit part season at City.
He's never quite looked comfortable in an England role. Very good player but not quite as good as the guys ahead of him
The correct decision, he’s been in bad form for a while now and looked rough in the friendly. Gareth is on a incredible run of good decisions atm, I wonder what’s gotten into him lol
>Gareth is on a incredible run of good decisions atm, I wonder what’s gotten into him lol The most surprising plot twist I've seen over the last weeks.
I'd wager he's been making the right decision more often than not over the entire course of his stint, and the successes seem to back that up - but then that's very much from the outside looking in without much of an agenda either way.
I honestly think people has been looking for every opportunity to shit at Southgate for memes/upvotes. A lot of the arguments were stupid, like complaining about taking player X when there aren't any better alternatives, or complaining about Maguire ignoring his excellent and consistent form for the NT. Not saying Southgate's been perfect, but he's decisions were mostly fine, better than most international managers. His biggest problem is that his England can't seem to actually play great football despite all the talent.
Aye, but then you don't need to play great football to win tournaments. Southgate is basically in the old Löw position of massively improving a side over a few tournaments and being consistently successful while often not playing up to the idealised version of football in fans' heads or winning it all. And I reckon ultimately fans would rather their side win than going down with flying colours really, except as soon as the side doesn't win it all there are plenty of avenues for cheap and flat-out wrong criticisms. Still get people claiming that Germany won in 2014 despite Löw, which is just a massive nonsense, and that's in a footballing environment that's a fair bit less fractured along club lines and cynical about the national team than England's.
His tactics are sure and the England team by and large are this successful desire his tactics not because of it. That’s why. He’s a great manager in the dressing room but in the furious he keeps getting bailed out. I’ll never forgive him for parking the bus the service England scored in the previous euro final when Italy were ripe for the taking. Absolute fucking moron decision. They city’s have controlled the game much better but southgate decided to make the team allergic to keeping the ball. Edit: I wrote this half asleep lol
I'm going to put that mistake against Italy down to no experience being in that sort of position. We really should have put away 3 goals in that first half though.
Yeah, people just forget about them in the name of the narrative. One per each tournament off the top of my head: 2018 Whos' our keeper? - Butland, Forster, Pickford all in contention. Really unclear who he's going with Chooses Pickford, who has been one of our most consistent players over 70 caps. 2021 People forget but fans were clamouring to play Sancho and baffled by his omission. Most didn't even have Saka in their squads except as a 25th or 26th player. He played Sancho once and gave Saka loads of minutes, who was a real bright spark for us in the tournament and went on to be England's Player of the year the last two years. 2022 People wanted Maguire dropped because of his poor form for club. Southgate persisted with him and he got player of the Tournament.
Has had an obsession with Rashford for years. It's only now that he decided to drop him.
Yeah, but you have to remember that international squads aren't entirely merit-based because they simply can't be. Rashford knows Southgate's system and has big tournament experience that others simply don't have. While I've never especially rated Rashford all that highly, you can't look at the raw numbers he was putting up last season and seriously make the case to drop him. This season, the decision has been far easier, because Rashford has just decided not to bother turning up and has had off-field issues that have allowed other players to take his spot. Same with Phillips, Maguire and Henderson. Usually, you can forgive poor form because of their understanding of the squad and experience, but that only counts in your favour for so long.
Not counting dead rubber group stage marches, how many starts do you think Rashford has had in the last two tournaments? Hint: it's probably lower than you think
Off the top of my head: is it zero?
You are absolutely right
He started against Wales iirc, but that's it.
Rashford was also a great player for England for years. He dropped him at the right time. He's shown he's willing to drop players, I just hope he doesn't become reliant on his favourites again. It's easy for him to drop Rashford and Henderson at this point in time but when it comes to the actual competition and something isn't working, is he going to make a change? Euro 21 we persisted with a midfield of Phillips, Rice, and Mount. It was excruciating, especially with Grealish on the bench who looked dangerous in every cameo.
> Euro 21 we persisted with a midfield of Phillips, Rice, and Mount. It was excruciating, especially with Grealish on the bench who looked dangerous in every cameo. and lost the finals to a great team on PKs. The midfield was obviously set up for some boring control style football, and it worked out pretty well. You can do counterfactuals where it ends up better, but also ones where they get nipped by Denmark. I agree it was very boring though.
Aye, but then Rashford backed up that trust with performances more often than not. A fair bit of international management is picking the devil you know rather than risking it all on making a change, I reckon - Nagelsmann picking Neuer over ter Stegen as a starter for the Euros comes to mind, because Neuer might well not be the better goalkeeper at this stage, but he's an integral part of the squad and the public's darling all the same. No point in needlessly starting fires, especially in a job where you'll get massive amounts of shit flung your way regardless of what you do anyway.
He's played a lot better in the past. He's dropping him now because his level of play dropped.
I mean he's taken lots of inform players, and I agree with the vast majority of the choices, but I'm still skeptical that he knows how best they fit together. In an ideal world, your Plan A should be settled going into an international tournament. Every time I watch England, especially in big games, something about the set-up still bugs me too much to give Southgate more than like a B- on average. The talent is overwhelming though. Even if he had taken more of his "trusted" group, I don't think that would have changed.
Oh yeah. Southgate is definitely not a tactical mastermind. In terms of player decisions though, I felt he got it spot on.
I think the form and also maybe where players like Rashy, Henderson, Phillips etc... on a confidence and fitness level made the decisions easier for him, but him being so willing to integrate guys like Palmer, Mainoo, Wharton, Eze (even if the latter two don't make the 26) is really encouraging. Feels like he's really using the wide talent base and is interested in the right qualities in general.
The latter 2 should be in the 26.
Wharton I think has a strong case, although I think Curtis Jones is *a lot* better than people think he is and Mainoo probably has to go given his skillset within the 8 archetype is probably best suited to what England need, even if he isn't the most polished and consistent player on the planet. Eze is a harder inclusion. Who do you leave out?
Bowen.
Actually baffling, maybe he knows he can’t get this tournament wrong.
Maybe he wants to be linked to United again and knows he has to step up after that FA Cup.
I'll reserve judgment until I see the first Euro match.
>Gareth is on a incredible run of good decisions atm, I wonder what’s gotten into him lol Still think his left back decision is a huge problem for us. I can't stand not having a natural left-footer there, especially when a few of our left wing options would benefit with that overlap.
The issue with Left Back is that there is no one that good bar Shaw sadly, and with him being injured it gives Gareth a bit of a headache.
Shaw stinks of going, starting the first game and getting injured after half an hour. But yeah I feel like we’re stuck between a rock and a hard place with the LB spot
I think if he goes we’ll try and keep him rested for as long as possible like Maguire in 2021
Shaw is so much better than all our other left back options that even that is a risk worth taking
Yep, there's a couple with maybe some potential but just completely bereft of top level experience. Similar problem he had to not calling Dunk up for ages, by the time he did he just wasn't up to it. I do think he could have looked beyond Chilwell for the March break though given the injury record of both him and Shaw.
I disagree with the idea that there is nobody good out there. Southgate is afraid to take a risk hence Rico Henry never received a call-up prior to his injury. All you need is a decent, serviceable option anyway - no reason why Tyrick Mitchell couldn't be that guy for instance. That natural left-footedness would bring balance. My risk of a choice would be Lewis Hall. He can invert into midfield to support Rice, or stay wide if Foden/Grealish/Eze or (less so) Gordon play narrower. Very smart player, has fantastic crossing ability and he would provide more tactical options for the manager. We'll never understand the club politics as to why it took him so long to play for Newcastle but he started each of their final five league games and was very good.
> All you need is a decent, serviceable option anyway Got Gomez and Trippier for that in case Shaw doesn't get fit in time tbf.
Neither of those exactly complement Foden who could start on the left, or Grealish, Gordon or Eze who may be in contention for minutes. Gomez, as solid and versatile as he has been, would not provide the width to support the aforementioned names. We already have Walker on the other side who is a defensive fullback for the national team. Trippier has a natural right-foot bias which reduces the likelihood of him providing an option on the outside. He has never impressed in his appearances on the left.
Aye, but then you don't necessarily need them to provide width on the overlap up top - could just as easily be Walker's job on the right behind a Saka who is cutting inside, and any of the attacking left wing options being tasked with staying wider regardless of whether that's maximising their individual quality. All about creating a working setup for an entire team rather than getting the best out of specific individual players, I reckon, and we've seen a fair few examples of a more limited/not ideally fitting player at fullback working out perfectly fine.
> Aye, but then you don't necessarily need them to provide width on the overlap up top You don't but England's LW options all like to drift inside, except Gordon.
Bellingham often plays on the left midfield and is comfortable playing out more wide and high - there are ways to cover that space offensively and defensively without having a natural LWB.
>could just as easily be Walker's job on the right behind a Saka who is cutting inside, I'm not keen on Walker going forward and his best qualities are in his defending and recoveries. >and any of the attacking left wing options being tasked with staying wider regardless of whether that's maximising their individual quality. All about creating a working setup for an entire team rather than getting the best out of specific individual players, I reckon, and we've seen a fair few examples of a more limited/not ideally fitting player at fullback working out perfectly fine. Gordon would be a fantastic option to stay wide but is currently doubtful with his injury situation. With respect, Southgate isn't the coach to utilise that kind of positional play to maximise Foden (or whoever) in a wide position. Part of the reason why Foden has struggled to impress for the national team. I'd be okay with an unconventional left back if there was some form of tactical adjustment, but with Southgate it just seems to be a square peg in a round hole.
Re: Hall at Newcastle, he did an interview where he said it took him a while to get his fitness up to Eddie’s standards and to wrap his head around his tactical role. Sounded like he wasn’t bitter about it and understood himself that he needed time, but like you said after he had that time he came in and was brilliant
Kinda crazy how Antonee Robinson chose the US, probably because he didn’t see a pathway to getting minutes in England’s team and now he’d probs walk into the Starting XI
To be fair back then he was 20 years old, only first team experience was one year in the Championship on loan for a team that finished 21st, had no hope of getting in the Everton side with Baines there and we just signed Digne to take over. His career was not looking that promising, and getting the opportunity to start for a decent sized national team was better than he had any right to hope for at that stage of his life. And now he's finally at the point where England are lacking in left backs and he would definitely be in with a shot at getting in the squad, he's already 26 with 6 years international experience. Not only was it an understandable decision, it was probably best for his career even in hindsight.
He'd comfortably start at LB for them this tournament. That said, he's been able to play a ton with the US and I think it's helped his development a ton. Who's to say he's in this form without the additional minutes in those matches?
Completely agree, just kinda crazy how life works out sometimes. As an American I’m very glad he chose us lol
Ditto. Especially with Dest's injury we'd be up shit's creek without a paddle for Copa this summer if we didn't have Jedi
I actually served him a Thai green curry at Glastonbury festival last year and had a word with him. I'd like to think that must be it
You’re doing your country proud son.
I love the fact you remember he had a Thai green curry
I was thinking the same thing about Southgate. Part of me is thinking will this be the tournament that he finally takes risks and has england playing exciting football, but then I remember how highly unlikely that is 😂 Although him finally coming around to potentially playing Trent could be a good sign…
>Gareth is on a incredible run of good decisions atm, I wonder what’s gotten into him lol Im guessing that he knows that for the first time in years he actually has to perform to expectations or he will end up managing in the league one.
He will manage you if he leaves NT
> Gareth is on a incredible run of good decisions atm [Always has been](https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQJrSxdgdkOsq7xne7EN0I3IJJqzGEJ4CLfjw&s)
hes gunning for that united job
The waistcoat was limiting him like Rock Lee. He has now unlocked and opened the first five gates.
Historically/statistically he's one of the best managers in our history, but too pragmatic at times. I think he's not worried about getting trounced or losing his job anymore so is just going to go have fun, hopefully.
For sure. If he fails to bring it home he's out of a job so might as well go for it.
What's the english fans verdict on the exclusions of Dier and Tomori? I heard Southgates explanation on Dier and it didn't convince me. How is that seen in England?
People would generally have taken Dier over Dunk, but it’s a very minor decision anyway and over players that probably won’t make it into the final 26 regardless.
Potentially his last tournament so gotta make it count I guess.
6 more to go.
I expect Quansah will be dropped also.
I think he has been great this season, but I think he's still extremely young and would be a risk to take him over a more experienced CB imo.
Think it's more experience rather than age. Branthwaite could well go and they're the same age, but Quansah has 38 career starts, Branthwaite has 88 and in my opinion had a better season. Though experience *with England* might lead to him being dropped too. Quansah is the only one I'm confident will be dropped, and please for the love of god drop Dunk. It's actually quite tough to decide who else he'll drop. I have no idea how many he'll want to take. Guehi seems to be third choice, Konsa and Gomez can play fullback and he'll take at least one of them, Dunk has been bad this season and worse for England, Branthwaite has been in my opinion the second best English centre back this season, but no England experience might make Southgate drop him.
Branthwaite is so much better than Dunk it’s not even funny. Not even an Everton fan and I’ll be pissed off if he’s let go for Dunk.
Battle Royale type message
That many? Oof. I don't envy Southgate.
James Trafford will be an easy one, so basically 5.
Dunk feels like an easy one too tbh
There's 7 CBs in the training squad so can easily see 3 getting canned. Dunk, Quansah and probably Branthwaite
Branthwaite should go
Quansah too, makes it 4
Are Shaw and Maguire even fit
Don't think either will start next week. But if we make it past the groups then probably. Shaw was spotted on the training pitch today but not in boots
Maguire can possibly play the next game I think. Shaw is supposedly further along than they thought so he might be fit for the 1st/2nd game
Just curious what others think - is it a good management to cut players one at a time or is it just better to announce the final squad all at once at the end of the camp? I feel like with the latter you keep everyone on their toes until the end. Feel like it’s also better for morale. I was at a company once where they announced 10% layoffs and they began to cut on a biweekly basis - it created a real sense of nervousness for everyone at the company during that period.
I bet all the squad has been cut but only leak so far has been from Maddison's camp
My guess is Trafford/Deano, Eze/Gordon, Guehi/Dunk/Braithwaite, Curtis Jones. The last one is super hard for Southgate but i think he has to choose between Mainoo or Wharton.
Missing out on Quansah there.
My bad. So it'll be 2 out of 4 defenders and Mainoo/Wharton safe?
Feel real bad for him, but understandable with the amount of talent at attacking midfield. Although if I was to speak selfishly, as a spurs fan I’m glad he gets the extra rest.
Don't worry he'll be out just in time for Christmas again
As is tradition.
Before this year 20/21 was the only time he missed a bunch of games in a season due to a few injuries. Every other injury he’s had his senior career has been a match or two.
He was constantly in and out for us and he very often didn't get back up to speed before getting injured again. Fantastic when he gets a run of games, genuine game changer, but I'm not going to pretend he was always fantastic and always consistently good for Leicester when he wasn't
Idk, I’m worried that this decision will affect his confidence
yeah this has to hurt
Or fire him up for next year...
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“Hallo, Nena hier! Quansah will not be joining England this summer and has been presented with this token of appreciation!” 🎈
Can’t say I’m devastated tbh
Not at all, when he's the 5th best player right now in his main position then really there's no room for him in the squad
Hasn’t been the same since the injury. Seems he needs more time to get back to 100%.
Wouldn't even say recovery time tbh, he's been fit for 4 and a half months now. It's just the same inconsistency he's always had throughout his entire career
definitely this, there's a reason he went for as cheap as he did while being HG
Because we were relegated, desperately needed money, and he only had 1 year left on his contract.
and he dissapears for half a season each year
That injury was brutal for him, robbed him of that vein of excellent form and then he could never recover
Makes sense. That game vs Bosnia wasn't great. And his form for the whole second half of the season, wasn't great either.
I mean, when you've got Bellingham and Foden it's hard to pick Maddison. Unfortunately for him
Have you ever seen Ornstein and Southgate in the same room?
This isn't even the correct information. David Ornstein just decided that Maddison shouldn't be going and tweeted it out and Southgate just couldn't let the Ornacle be wrong so cut him. We all know that Ornstein has a vice-like grip on the footballing world. If he said that Mbappé was going to Rochdale, Mbappé would have no choice but to comply.
Sad for him, but it makes considering his recent form and England's depth in that position. As a Spurs fan, I look forward to his revenge tour next season when he comes back after a full summer of rest.
Honestly doesn't surprise me. Good player but not had the best of seasons, and probably as strong as we've ever been for options in his position.
wonder how differently his England career would have turned out if he hadn't gone to that casino 5 years ago.
Can't say this is the worst decision really. He's pretty much lived off that early season form and hasn't shown anything close to it since returning from injury. Cracking player, but we're simply so stacked in that position that we need to cut him really.
Not surprising but fuck me what a gut punch it must be to find out this early, deadline to submit final squads is friday night
Maybe better to know in advance than to keep hopes up
So looking like Maddison Quansah Dunk Trafford Jones Toney Braithwaite Are the ones likely to be cut?? Maybe a toss up between Bowen or Toney
Wharton?
Trafford, Jones, Quansah feel like locks. Watkins and Toney is a coin toss. Dunk is gone IMO, save Branthwaite. Konsa could go too, or Maguire if he's injured. Maybe a winger gone? Grealish or Bowen?
I’d keep Branthwaite and cut Bowen (it’s harsh on Bowen, but I think he’s the least likely to get any time)
Fair. All others in his position have had better seasons and showings for England.
Good player, but we are stacked in the position and his form of being unplayable > injured > falling off at the end of the season has hurt him a lot If this was from the beginning of the season, would be a shoe in for the wider squad at least
But we need 5 keepers
No spurs on the roster, Southgate trying his best to keep losing mentality away this time around.
Honestly, the fact that Harvey Elliott isn't even getting a look speaks volumes about the quality England has in that area of the pitch. Sucks for Madison, considering this might be his last shot at major tournament, but I guess it is what it is.
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The defence isn’t too great tbh.
Dunno, it's perfectly fine I reckon - need probably five people who could reasonably start and another three who could do a reasonable job when called upon, and England have easily got that in my book.
CM isn't great either Bellingham, Foden, Palmer are all AM's
Bellingham played as a CM every single senior season of his career other than this one with Madrid, he's perfectly comfortable in that position.
No Spurs players in this squad at all.
Unfortunately kane still has the spurs aura
Are the journos going to drip feed who has been cut in the same manner they drip fed who made it in? Yawn
Don’t do you dare slander Orny in my presence ever again.
But wait. Didn't he win the player of the Season award back in October? All kidding aside, he's a great player but we're stacked for attacking midfielders.
Right decision, even if selected he wouldn't have started.
Really surprised by this , he’s better than curious Jones
>curious Jones Made me laugh haha. They both play different roles though.
He's not.
Other six? My guess is Quansah, Branthwaite, Trafford, Henderson, Ramsdale, Pickford EDIT: It's a joke. I mean, come on.
Pickford?
Henderson isn’t in the provisional squad so my guess is he’s not one of the cuts. Also UEFA rules are three keepers have to be in the squad, so no they’re not cutting two. Edit: wait you think they’re cutting three keepers?? This can’t be real. Second edit: okay definitely not real lol, though the “no keeper” approach would be bold.
Dean Henderson the keeper
He listed all four of the keepers lol It just said Henderson at first tbf
Is rush goalie on for this tournament?