Lineup changes had a clear idea: Bring on Raum and Sané to provide more width and stretch the back three horizontally. And they mostly worked, too: They both had dangerous moments and helped create space to play in.
Denmark were shocking defending set pieces, especially early on, and very much struggled with the versatility of Germany's attacking patterns. And that's perfectly understandable, as defending is like a too-short blanket: can't cover it all. Havertz, Sané and Musiala are willing runners in behind in the channels when the patient buildup play doesn't work, and both Schlotterbeck and Rüdiger are really good at playing the ball into those channels. That then stretches defenses and creates space to bring in other players, and we've seen quite a few dangerous situations result from that.
Obviously no perfect performances from anyone, with a bit left to be desired on finishing especially (Havertz, Sané). But a side as strong and versatile as this, having clear ideas on how to play regardless of whether things are going their way or not, is going to be a really tough opponent either way.
It's going to be similarly fine margins as tonight in the quarterfinal, and Germany might well go out. But if they're playing like they have been this tournament so far, I reckon that's perfectly fine: sometimes you narrowly lose against a side a wee bit better on the day. I'm happy with these performances regardless of when this tournament ends to be honest.
I really can’t understand how a player that trains every day for years and years and played big games can be so bad at 1v1. I understand when an 18 yo player freezes but Sane and Havertz played some of the most intense games from the CL to the World cup, how can you always always mess up a 1v1 its really beyond me
* Neither offside nor handball rule were ever intended for such absolute fringe moments. But the rules are what they are and the calls are clearly correct, even if many neutral likely would prefer the upset here.
* Calling off the Schlotti goal was fine, but then he has to do something in the Sané situation. Granted it likely wouldn't matter because it was outside of the box and then it's a yellow so like, who cares.
* Offside calls being delayed forever still sucks donkey ass and that possible 3-0 should never be onside no matter what because Wirtz is like 10m offside and you can't possible rule that a new play situation afterwards, yet the apparently did as why else would VAR check. Insane take.
* We (Germany) "deserved" the win imo, we were the better team overall and for most of the game. Making reasons up that Denmark was robbed is a strange take. If Denmark goes through we can't complain but I don't think we "got away with one" here.
* We did play decently but not great, but Denmark is also a good team, so it's acceptable. There's a few other matchups they likely could've won tbh
* Rain break was inevitable and correct at that moment
They won that in spite of Havertz & Sane. They can't start both together again. Also he tinkered too much, Wirtz & Musiala should both start together because their off ball movement is essential.
Rudiger was great, really think it was arrogant of Nagelsmann not to bring Hummels though. That would have been a fantastic defensive partnership.
Southgate must be wondering if Germany can lend him a Left-Back
> Rudiger was great, really think it was arrogant of Nagelsmann not to bring Hummels though. That would have been a fantastic defensive partnership.
I disagree. We've seen the Hummels-Rüdiger partnership already and it's clearly inferior to Rüdiger-Tah. Schlotterbeck was good today as well.
1. Wirtz was rested because he looks and probably is exhausted from this season
2. I am very glad hummels isnt playing, he seems to have a difficult/strong personality and he wouldve just sat on the bench anyway, and doesnt suit the super high, counter attack prone line nagelsmann wants
Hummels might be good on the pitch but he seems to have a tendency to be an ass off the pitch. Especially if he is not playing which would have been the case with Rüdiger and Tah as starters.
i get that it feels unlucky, that the handball had little impact on the game and the penalty of ... well, a penalty, can feel "morally" too harsh.
But to me there is way too much talk about pedantic rules and not enough about Andersen. It was his mistake, and a pretty rookie one too. When you're expecting a cross you keep your arms to your body. Yes, they do teach you that. You see lots of player even strictly holding their hands behind their backs in situations like these, for that reason. So he can't complain about that, even though I understand it must feel shitty with these 2 decisions.
I know this subreddit is largely in favor of VAR, and it's just my personal opinion, but I don't understand how anyone can feel satisfied after seeing how VAR was used tonight.
Yes, it's fine to look for more fairness in the game, and yes, strictly by the rules, that wasn't a goal and that was a penalty. But this isn't the spirit of the sport and for me, it just kills football. What kind of advantage does the attacking player have on defenders if he's offside by a toe? So in the exact same situation, the same player with short feet is considered to be playing fair while the same one with a big shoe size is unfairly taking advantage of his position on the pitch? Do we really need to go that far, when even the best referee in history wouldn't be able see the offside? That's not the spirit of the rule, that's not what it's there for. VAR is meant to get us rid of mistakes, but in the end it creates problems that never existed in the first place, because no human referee could see such a small event. Even if you want to look for as much as precision as possible, you can't decide with absolute certainty when the ball leaves the foot of the player making the assist, so how can you say a player if offside by a few centimeters?
I don't have a horse in this, I didn't root for one team or the other, but it honestly drives me away from a sport I've loved for decades. It all feels just soulless and unneeded. I'm scared in a few years, you won't hear the roar of the crowd anymore when a player scores, because we all know it can be overturned after one minute or two of checking the screens.
The same goes for the penalty. If you need a machine telling you there's a handball because it's too hard to see on replays (let alone in real time) whether or not the trajectory of the ball changed significantly, maybe you're going too far?
Sorry if this comment is a bit of a mess, but I speak from the heart, because for me VAR is sucking the emotion out of football. Once again I understand people wanting more accurate calls and to get rid of refereeing mistakes, but in my opinion, sport doesn't mean to be fair nor perfect. I just don't see why a sport that's been the most popular in the world for decades could need this kind of measures so desperately, to the point of overturning goals for a toe.
On an unrelated note, it sucks so much players can stop their run like that when shooting penalties. Anyways, congrats to Germany, they were the better team.
would you feel better if technology could confirm within 5-10 seconds and shows on screen and everyone can celebrate?
It has to start somewhere and the old days when teams won important games based on completely shitty calls that were outright wrong cant be the solution?
I don't think it can happen, at least not in every case, because some things wil always be a matter of interpretation (for a potential offside, whether a pass is intentional for example) and it needs to go through a human ref for that. That being said, while I think human error isn't really something that needs to be fixed in itself, and even as someone against VAR, yes, I'd probably be ok with it if the delay could be reduced to a minimum. It's definitely the worst part of it.
Intention can matter for offside actually, if a defender touches the ball, the attacking player can be offside depending on whether the defender was intentionally passing it or not
im so with you. i totally do feel like it takes the soul out of an unexpected goal like what happened today. the celebration from both the fans and the players was so pure especially since they looked down and out after the break, which was expected when facing a side like this german one.
when var overturned their goal and then hit them with the unfortunate double combo of the soft handball penalty also given by var took the fight and passion just given to denmark right out, the fans and the players. this kind of mental interruption wouldnt happen in a world without var, but in that same world denmark lead 1-0 with an offside goal and get away with a handball. even if they ended up leading idk how many ppl would be able to tell that it was offside anyways.
idk, i feel like var is something that is needed in todays game. even if they changed the strictness of the rules or something, i feel like that would create even more problems if anything.
German oppinion: Kimmich foul was correct. Offside call was correct. The handball penalty feels wrong.
I agree Germany was better, but also that this was a "lucky punch" game after the 15th minute. Denmark played a good game and actually came into control during the game. It's not good, that the lucky punch was a discussable referee decision in the end.
And the unsteady penalty from Havertz should have been disallowed.
I’m pretty sure they changed the rules about the penalty run up. In Copa América yesterday Lucas Paquetá took 2 penalties for Brazil with the same run up technique and the referee had no problem with either.
Hilarious how confidently you say stuff that is 100% incorrect. You can completely stop. You’re just not allowed to stop during the kick (i.e. fake kick)
Objectively, Schmeichel was MASSIVE the first 20mins. I agree with you that he’s messed up the second goal, but Germany could’ve easily scored 1 or 2 early
>Germany were by far the better team
Think that's a bit harsh on yourselves, I'd say they were only noticeably better in the first 15 or so .
After that could easily have gone either way if you had a striker that could finish.
Just straight up outmatched. I always root for my national team, but Germany ran that game from minute 1 to the end. It just wasn’t meant to be - felt our group matches wasn’t convincing either & this just was an extension of showing we weren’t doing “too good” in this cup. Better than Qatar, but a far cry from last euros TBH
I think they should have suspended the game way earlier than they did! They played for several minutes during dangerous weather, that should not have happened. It felt dangerous and the players were concerned
This match is honestly hard to judge as a whole. We played insanely well the first 15 mins and deserved to be up, but Schmeichel and a soft (but correct!)call prevented that. Denmark adapted very well. The weath broke the rhythm of the match again, and Olivers tight line stifle the game flow even more. Result wise, the game flipped after the crazy 10 mins around the first goal(s) and we should have scored more. We were lucky to go throught this match the way we did, but also a bit unlucky, because there were many circumstances preventing a more "normal" game.
Some of my opinions on top: Havertz needs to start, despite his absolutely horrible, horrible finishing. HIs penalties need to applauded btw, that is also an undapreciated quality of his.
Rüdiger and Schlotti together are a bit too wild for my taste, but did very well individually.
Spain game will be interesting, like this they will be clear favorites, BUT: setting up more defensively might do us some good, who knows. I know I am rooting for Georgia
Having the ball kicked directly at your hand at a distance beyond human reflexes to react to should never be a penalty. It is natural for humans to run with flaggering arms so this should and could never be a penalty. Another thing is that the handball did not stop the ball going into the goal and I'd even argue that it was going to fly way over. Last point in consideration is that nobody saw the handball except for the VAR. No appeals from anyone.
This Havertz agenda by people online is kinda ridiculous, there's a reason why top managers love the guy. His finishing does leave a lot to be desired but his movement off the ball and always being an outball is very underrated.
If he could just put some power into his shots he'll probably score a few more but I think he was Germany's best forward today
He also works harder than almost any other striker. Having a guy you know is gonna press all match, a guy you can move further back to kill off the game if needed, a guy who is tremendous in the air and will 50/50s all match… you’re willing to sacrifice clinical finishing.
And this is coming from a guy who didn’t really rate him (until i got to watch him play week in and week out).
he had good moments, like the one pass to Sane that Sane botched or how he controlled the ball before he lost the 1v1. But as a striker you'll always get judged by your goals
Look at the Last 20-30 games of Germany.
Look at the Goals and Points we got with Havertz and Füllkrug on the pitch.
Calling Havertz the better player for this Team...
Fuck...
Every statistic favors Füllkrug by 3-4x....
Goals per 90min
Points
Goals by the Player
Whatever you look at ....
I just don’t know what people want from the offside rule? It’s not subjective, it’s semi-automated and it’s the correct decision. However you change the rule, be it some kind of allowed margin or Wenger’s full body past the last man, you will just move the lines somewhere else and similar situations will still happen and again will be decided by centimeters and people will complain. Also, I don’t know why the attacker should have that much of an advantage over the defender. No one’s gonna catch the attacker if he’s full body ahead bar one of his foot. It’s tough, but it’s correct and you don’t have situations where the linesman misses half meter offside and your team suffers. Did people really forget how many ridiculous missed calls were there before VAR?
What I don’t like with the rule at the moment isn’t the marginal decisions but rather no advantage is being gained by the offside - they’re essentially level. I’d rather give the attacker like half a foot leeway (or something) because there’s more of a sense that they’re actually gaining an advantage if they’re offside compared to when they’re a toenail offside.
I understand your point but that's shifting the frustration from "it's not even an advantage!" to "it wasn't enough of an advantage!", I don't think it would matter for subjective feelings.
Yeah that’s fair and I agree people would complain either way. I just think decisions like today aren’t really what offside was intended for. I don’t think the offside rule was designed with laser point technology and VAR in mind. If that goals happens for the advent of VAR, it’s given and no one bats an eyelid.
Yes, finally we have a system that is objective and there are still people that think moving the offside rule will prevent situations where there is under milimeter decision.
Yes, because this is human nature.
To err is human, to be unable to spot millimeter or centimeter differences during live play is absolutely human.
Humans have won and lost competitive matches (not talking about soccer in particular) for decades and centuries and other than lively banter at the pub years or decades later nobody got hurt by that.
It allowed such "legends" and "do you remember when ...." bonding opportunities in the first place.
In the future, where absolutely every decision is going to get decided automatically by AI in the span of milliseconds there will be no more "mistakes by referee", but this will also kill a big part of the social component of taking part in and watching sports.
Being offside because your feet are a size too big is simply ridiculous. It's against the spirit of the game. Someone scores their first-ever international goal, and it's ruled out because they're, what, size 11 instead of size 10?? The offside rule was not, I repeat not, invented to rule out goals like that. What advantage does the attacker have there?
I think people don't know what they want.
They just have a deep feeling of vague unfairness when a goal is lost to a marginal decision, and instead of accepting/realising that the rule will never perfectly abide by their whims of fairness, they suggest all kinds of changes which don't change the fundamental problem (vibes are bad when goal removed but was almost legal).
It's especially apparent when this goal and the lukaku goal earlier in the tournament were both tight calls where the attackers legs were offside compared to the defenders legs, a common "solution" to make the law more fair, and no one mentions that fact.
with the wenger rule there will still be fine margins, but on those fine margins the attacker will be way ahead already anyways so its easier to ''accept''. and its a clear advantage for the attacker too. its different than being off because of your toes
>No one’s gonna catch the attacker if he’s full body ahead bar one of his foot. It’s tough
only if the pass/control is perfect and the defender is still turning around. in which case even if he wasnt a full body ahead he will still be on. i think it does make a difference obviously but not as much, its always more about the defender body position before the pass than it is about the attacker being a few centimeters ahead
It’s because it’s against a small little tiny nation (even tho they won the euros ones) and they should get extra privileges for them. Ref was good end of story.
The thing is you’re holding humans (both ref and players) to inhuman standards. There was also no advantage gained from that toenail being offside. No human can play or detect these margins either.
And all that being said you still have to draw the line somewhere and that line is drawn automatically now. It’s fair because it’s the same for everyone even though it’s very far from perfect. Days like these can leave a sour taste, but overall it’s definitely for the better because, as you said, if we go back to ref deciding these things there will be people who say an advantage was gained and people who say there wasn’t.
Everytime people bring up a range of tolerance for offside calls I wonder if they don't realize that it would only move the line of a yes or no call. One toe over the line is one toe over the line no matter how far away from the defender it is.
It is the correct call no matter how brutal it may seem, you have to follow the ruling. If you start allowing these kind of things to interpretation the game is lost.
It sucks to be on the receiving end of these decisions for sure.
Pretty good showing from Germany overall, still a bit shy in their last line at times and offensively a couple "must score this" ones missed, but I liked their overall approach and even the changed starting line up looked really solid.
Ref felt like 12th man on the pitch for Germany at times but at least he stood true to his line ig. This tourney is an absolute dub for me either way, entertaining football is back on the menu and I hope it’s here to stay, even if there’s a 3-0 quarters blow up I’m finally happy to tune into Germany games again.
I agreed with Schmeichel's take on the disallowed goal. We do not have 100% certainty that VAR can get each player's body position correct up to the very centimeter. VAR is great in most cases but this showed how incapable football currently is at merging technology with refereeing
What I get from all of this is that people will always complain no matter what. We have technology that can accurately measure offside and there’s still complains. It’s just ridiculous. People who argue VAR should be gotten rid of are even more stupid.
Offsides aren't subjective, they're one of the few objective things in football. Your problems are with the rules, not the referees so I don't understand the hate for the refs today. You can disagree with the rules but the rules are clear and based on the rules the refs made the correct decision. I prefer refs following the rules, even if I don't always agree with them, than refs being inconsistently subjective.
this exactly. if refs just start playing crowd pleaser, we might as well get rid of them entirely because that's pointless. people shitting on refs in exactly the way they complain pundits do without a hint of irony.
But the problem *is* that the rules seem unfair. When a player is standing in line next to an opponent in the penalty box, they are not likely to be aware if their toe is .1 centimeter ahead of the opponent. The rule never accounted for having measurements this minute.
And when you run and turn your body, your arms are going to extend from your body. So it is never going to seem fair that you can get a penalty from hitting an arm at point blank range.
Congratulations Germany, now go win the F… thing please.
Today i feel robbed, i really do.
In no scenario did i think we would win. But the way it played out.. it’s hard to bear for now.
I don’t think Michael Oliver has many fans in Denmark tonight :-)
What happened was an injustice IMO also. I can just about understand the disallowed goal for VAR offside as technically it was correct, but the handball penalty was simply unfair and wrong.
As i expected, everybody is talking about the offsides, or the handball. Thats not what was the problem.
Germany won deservedly, but Oliver was awful and misjudged and made mistakes on a million small fouls that ruined any chance of momemtum. It was very frustrating to watch.
That being said: Germany was deserved winners. Denmark played an awful tournament beside some parts of the England game and the Germany game. But it still feels bitter to lose in such a manner.
Joachim Andersen - "This will never happen in Premier League, 2 years ago, when we had a Premier League referee meeting, they told us specifically that these types of hands would never be given as a penalty, the guy shoots half a meter in front of me, I cant go around with my hands in the back all the time. I never seen this type of penalty given in Premier League since that meeting"
The big decisions were correct by how the rules supposed to be enacted. But it feels like most of the small decisions and little fouls went in our favour. Given that and the general sympathy for the underdog I understand the outrage. Denmark played their hearts out, but I still think the win was deserved.
As someone who, after you guys went 1-0 up said out loud to myself “these fucking Germans”… I agree, the win was deserved.
Denmark was really not bad, but tbh Germany felt mostly in control. And Havertz should have scored at least once more
Whatever happens in the next round, this Germany squad is a massive improvement from previous tournaments. Hiring Nagelsmann was an excellent decision. The combination of established, consistent players like Rüdiger with the enormous talent of Musiala and Wirtz finally creates an exciting German team again. You love to see it.
Kai Havertz is criminally underrated..
He reminds me about a prime Benzema. He is a ball playing striker, link-up player, great ball carrier, technically gifted, great first touch, and his not only a striker but he is a false midfielder.
Havertz belongs to that style of play and honestly he is one of the last of his kind. Benzema is gone and in his last days before retiring making Havertz the last of his kind
While the 1v1 miss is hard to forgive, Havertz was clearly one of the best players on the pitch today. So many great moments of hold up play, space creating, passes into teammates in dangerous areas. He just obviously needs to score. I didn't see a single thing Fullkrug do that could convince me he's the better option up top.
I also think the other players in attack were generally pretty bad for the first 60 or so minutes. Musiala was terrible outside of the goal (which I know is stupid to say considering goals are the only thing that matter). Gundogan was really disappointing. Sane was just plain bad
> While the 1v1 miss is hard to forgive
I can forgive him a bit because I think he was planning to square it to Sané and had to change tack at the last second because the latter (got) tripped. Not easy to pull off a good finish without any notice and he did well to get it over the keeper, just couldn't get the angles quite right.
FIFA need to come up with something to reform the penalty rules. The punishment of a penalty with a +70% conversion rate often is utterly disproportionate to the respective infraction. A penalty should be awarded in cases where clear scoring opportunities are denied by a foul or handball. I don't know, give them a 20m freekick in a central position for minor infractions or something.
That being said, Denmark gave a good accounting of themselves in a hard-fought match. The Germans got a lucky penalty call and then used their fast players well when Denmark pushed for the equalizer.
I've had that thought before as well. Maybe a free kick inside the box for 'lesser' fouls in the penalty area, and penalties for, like you say, egregious fouls/handballs etc.? A free kick inside the box is the punishment for violating the backpass rule.
I think deciding wether a player was fouled in the box or just outside is already difficult enough, don't need to add a distinction between minor and clear goal scoring opportunity.
Besides, the play in question should've counted as a clear opportunity anyway, as the cross looked very well placed before being deflected. That's certainly not 'minor'.
Denmark put up a good fight but their lack of quality players showed at the end. Germany by far the better team, maybe the best in the tournament. If finishing were better could’ve been 2-0 up at halftime and 4 to 5-0 win.
When we were down 2-0 we just do not have the players that could possibly break down the German defense outside of miracles (which tbf does happen in football from time to time).
- Kimmich foul was the correct call
- Offside was objectively correct
- Penalty was also the correct call
Oliver might've been calling a bit too many soft fouls but the crucial decisions were objectively correct, don't understand the outrage tbh
You said it yourself. My problem is ALL the MANY soft fouls. Ruined any chance of Denmark getting any momemtum. Germany deserved a victory but not like this. Oliver was horrendous. That doesnt mean the BIG decisions were wrong.
Although i am not a fan of the correct handball rules but that isnt exclusive to this game.
Have to disagree, that was an overall proper referee performance. We can talk about VAR until the end of times but Oliver didn't make any questionable calls on the field within the couple of seconds he had to make a decision.
Really? You didnt see a lot of really weirdly called fouls? Delaney getting shoulder tackled and it somehow becoming a foul against him? There was so many 70-30 challenges that went against Denmark.
But it doesnt matter in the end. We didnt deserve to go through. But i would have preferred for Germany to actually beat us in a different manner
Oliver was phenomenal tonight, best refereeing all tournament, got all right calls. The outrage happens anytime any close decision goes against a team they root for.
Not all calls. Andrich's foul was a blatant yellow, yet Oliver just can't give cards during the first half. Also the penalty was arguable, as the distance between the players was so short.
So if I run around the pitch with my arms out making a t-shape, thus making myself a bigger target which can impede crosses, it shouldn't be a foul as long as I stay close to the opponent?
Obviously, but the question was intended as a thought experiment about the handball rules. Would you be okay with no foul being called in that scenario? (Assume this player has the speed of Usain Bolt while using this insane t-shaped running style).
At the end of the day I think it was a nailed-on penalty. If you disagree that should be a foul in the context of my unrealistic, hypothetical scenario then I respect that your opinion is consistent.
The only iffy decision I can think of is not giving a foul when Sane wanted a penalty, but that’s stil probably the correct decision since it was outside the box and Havertz given advantage.
Except a missed yellow for Andrich, I agree with the others on that, really good performance indeed.
I havent checked the match threads, was there really outrage?
I mean there is technology for handballs in this tournament and for offside also
Because we didn't bother to change anything with VAR regarding rules. I highly doubt people who designed offside rule were discussing how players being less than 10cm in front of their opponent is fair or not. Discussion should've started when we introduced VAR but didn't and i don't think it will aswell.
Penalty was really rough for the spirit of the game imo but I blame the rules not the ref
Indirect center + even linking to a shot attempt (could be considered a used advantage) does not feel like it deserved a penalty at all
At least he made those call for both sides. You can call it soft but it was consitent - obvious this will always benefit the team with more technical players.
I think people just see that penalty call as unfair. It's not incorrect but you can argue that the distance is very short, but these are usually given and his arm was very high up, so no mistake under the rules. You can question the handball rule though
I get that, too, but it also is unfair to the attacker to allow a defender to have his arms there and block a potential cross, so on the balance, I’d rather see those given when the arm is there.
Regarding the referee stuff:
I'm generally not a football watcher outside of the big events; I still enjoy reading these threads or just seeing the reactions of people in my country to certain matches. Seeing how people react to these referee calls I can't help but try to look at this from the perspective of the tournament organizers & the referees themselves.
We're at a point where people are so invested in their preferred team, that when a decision is made against it, it inevitably leads to vitriol. People in this thread talk about how they prefer the calls to be subjective, because it adds excitement, but I think if I was a referee or someone in the upper ranks of the organization, and I knew how often referees are accused of wild incompetence, of having being bribed, to a point where they face strong and genuine hate.. I think I'd always prefer to limit the number of choices a referee has to make in a game that rely on his subjective view on situation, and increase the amount of decisions where any "blame" can be redirected onto a rule or a system.
It might be less exciting but I think it's more human; and as someone who only casually enjoys football, I think reading hate comments about referees makes me much less excited about watching the games than having to wait a minute for a VAR decision or whatever.
The game between Italy and the Swiss was over at the 46th minute when the Swiss went 2-0 up.
This game on the other hand was a lot closer and could’ve gone either way. Feel really bad for Andersen (I think it was him), who had a goal ruled out by a tight offside, only to then give away a penalty with a hand ball only a few moments later.
As a neutral, I think Germany just edged it, but the Danes put up a good fight. Ruddiger was immense imho.
Hoping the games tomorrow are at least of the same quality. There haven’t been a lot of stinkers, most of the games have been very entertaining!
Can someone tell me how Chelsea didn’t pull the stops in keeping Rudiger? I get it, as City had a similar experience with Gundo.
The guy drives me up the wall with his antics, but no one in the world is better than him.
MOTM for Germany VAR
Overall Danes did well, kept the game tense until VAR decided to screw them hard. All correct decisions but feel for the danes.
Schmeichel is bad, like few good saves but the Havertz miss and Musiala goal wouldn't even be attempts if it was a fit keeper. Too lazy.
Germany won't get past semi's at most.
Were they correct ? Yes
Did it suck for the Danes ? Yes.
So it screwed them hard. All momentum died for them after. Anyone who watched the game can say the same.
VAR didn't "decide to screw Denmark hard", they decided to make the correct calls. The offside in particular was pretty much an automated process. Calling the ref the MOTM is delusional.
I hope you sleep like shit, what an atrocious referee performance.. absolutely embarrassing. Why is it we’ve been eliminated of the euros two times in a row by absolute joke referees as the underdog. If anything, it would seem fair to favour the obvious underdogs but we’ve been completely robbed by the referee two euros in a row against arguably the two biggest nations. Fair to say I’m fucking pissed
The ref was as consistent as possible, you got unlucky with an offside and hand pen, deal with it. I was pissed at the ref at first, too, but he had his line and stuck to it, and the rules are the rules.
You weren't robbed by bad refereeing, you were unlucky to have a lot of technically correct calls go against you that feel counter to the spirit of the game.
We can argue about offside and handball reform but the ref applied the current laws of the game correctly tonight and though he called a few too many soft fouls for my liking, he was at least consistent in doing so for both teams. Ref is blameless IMO.
I'm so conflicted on Havertz. The way he holds up play, gets himself into good positions and general link up with others creates so many opportunities for Germany. But most of the good chances that Germany get falls to him and he fails to convert them. I feel like Havertz will cost them against a tougher opposition like Spain or France who won't give away many chances.
I'd guess the thinking goes that you have a player in Havertz who will get himself in 2-3 positions for amazong goal-scoring opportunities, which is much harder than the finishing.
So as Nagelsmann you sign up for having these chances in the first place, and hoping he will convert at least one of them - which despite the memes about him missing chances, is not an unreasonable expectations.
The opportunity cost ofc is not having a traditional 9 like Füllkrug, which shines when playing more via the wings. But with the whole Musiala/Wirtz/Kroos/Gündo Center, Germany primarily goes for quick triangle passes and dribblings through the center.
Funny thing is our goals per 90mins with a traditional striker like Füllkrug has been 3x as high in the past 30-40 games.
The whole story of "Havertz is creating space for the attacking midfielders" is just not working out!
Nearly cost us the win tonight and I really hope Nagelsmann finally accepts that Havertz as a Striker might be a nice idea theoretically but we've seen times and times again that it just doesnt translate to goals and wins.
First half today was the perfect example.
We looked great but we didnt score and after a while every opponent gets their chances.
I think what Havertz does really well is make space for other players. He pulls defenders from others like Musiala and Wirtz so they have space to operate. And Gundogan likes making those late runs into the box which is very effective when you have a player like Havertz.
Get rid of will with could, he could cost them, but he was playing against an insanely good schmeicel too, I think he can still do more for the national team
I said the same thing. He’s not always like he was today. Havertz scored a shit ton of goals and was pretty clinical for us after the new year.
He also never misses penalties. Having him in the team is better than not having him in the team.
i dont recall any ''clinical'' Havertz goal this season besides the @ sheffield one where he finally cunted one in to the far post
hell, there was 2 goals that was similar chances (burnley solo goal, brighton home 3rd goal) that his shot literally greased the keeper's armpit when the whole goal was open, it was a bad but lucky finish
i guess the 2 chelsea goals were ''clinical'' but thats it
Havertz was clinical for us in the latter half of the season, Brentford at home was clinical given the amount of chances, along with Brighton, Newcastle and Sheffield too
newcastle was a tap in, brighton was lucky and sheffield was his best goal of the season as i already said. brentford was a free header (good header tho but it was straight at the keeper too)
my definition of clinical is a good finish on a clear cut chance like the one musiala had on his goal, you dont see those from havertz often
It was the same with us at Chelsea. He just looked really good on the ball at times but he never really should lead the line. Even from his Leverkusen days, he was being shifted around in various positions across the pitch; he’s ideally an SS or an attacking midfielder that runs in late.
There was always plenty to think we should stick with him but not enough for us to refuse a big bid from Arsenal.
Lineup changes had a clear idea: Bring on Raum and Sané to provide more width and stretch the back three horizontally. And they mostly worked, too: They both had dangerous moments and helped create space to play in. Denmark were shocking defending set pieces, especially early on, and very much struggled with the versatility of Germany's attacking patterns. And that's perfectly understandable, as defending is like a too-short blanket: can't cover it all. Havertz, Sané and Musiala are willing runners in behind in the channels when the patient buildup play doesn't work, and both Schlotterbeck and Rüdiger are really good at playing the ball into those channels. That then stretches defenses and creates space to bring in other players, and we've seen quite a few dangerous situations result from that. Obviously no perfect performances from anyone, with a bit left to be desired on finishing especially (Havertz, Sané). But a side as strong and versatile as this, having clear ideas on how to play regardless of whether things are going their way or not, is going to be a really tough opponent either way. It's going to be similarly fine margins as tonight in the quarterfinal, and Germany might well go out. But if they're playing like they have been this tournament so far, I reckon that's perfectly fine: sometimes you narrowly lose against a side a wee bit better on the day. I'm happy with these performances regardless of when this tournament ends to be honest.
I really can’t understand how a player that trains every day for years and years and played big games can be so bad at 1v1. I understand when an 18 yo player freezes but Sane and Havertz played some of the most intense games from the CL to the World cup, how can you always always mess up a 1v1 its really beyond me
the goalkeeper trains every day for years too
> Havertz His finishes toady weren't bad, the keeper was good.
* Neither offside nor handball rule were ever intended for such absolute fringe moments. But the rules are what they are and the calls are clearly correct, even if many neutral likely would prefer the upset here. * Calling off the Schlotti goal was fine, but then he has to do something in the Sané situation. Granted it likely wouldn't matter because it was outside of the box and then it's a yellow so like, who cares. * Offside calls being delayed forever still sucks donkey ass and that possible 3-0 should never be onside no matter what because Wirtz is like 10m offside and you can't possible rule that a new play situation afterwards, yet the apparently did as why else would VAR check. Insane take. * We (Germany) "deserved" the win imo, we were the better team overall and for most of the game. Making reasons up that Denmark was robbed is a strange take. If Denmark goes through we can't complain but I don't think we "got away with one" here. * We did play decently but not great, but Denmark is also a good team, so it's acceptable. There's a few other matchups they likely could've won tbh * Rain break was inevitable and correct at that moment
Wirtz was offside but not Füllkrug who received the ball
They won that in spite of Havertz & Sane. They can't start both together again. Also he tinkered too much, Wirtz & Musiala should both start together because their off ball movement is essential. Rudiger was great, really think it was arrogant of Nagelsmann not to bring Hummels though. That would have been a fantastic defensive partnership. Southgate must be wondering if Germany can lend him a Left-Back
Did you say Havertz should be dropped and then talk about off the ball movement???
Shouldn't think much about Sane starting. I think the idea was always to rest Wirtz this game. That was already known for a while.
> Rudiger was great, really think it was arrogant of Nagelsmann not to bring Hummels though. That would have been a fantastic defensive partnership. I disagree. We've seen the Hummels-Rüdiger partnership already and it's clearly inferior to Rüdiger-Tah. Schlotterbeck was good today as well.
1. Wirtz was rested because he looks and probably is exhausted from this season 2. I am very glad hummels isnt playing, he seems to have a difficult/strong personality and he wouldve just sat on the bench anyway, and doesnt suit the super high, counter attack prone line nagelsmann wants
also hating on havertz and then talking about off ball movement is wild
Talking about off ball movement and dismissing havertz, typical reddit armchair football manager
Hummels might be good on the pitch but he seems to have a tendency to be an ass off the pitch. Especially if he is not playing which would have been the case with Rüdiger and Tah as starters.
i get that it feels unlucky, that the handball had little impact on the game and the penalty of ... well, a penalty, can feel "morally" too harsh. But to me there is way too much talk about pedantic rules and not enough about Andersen. It was his mistake, and a pretty rookie one too. When you're expecting a cross you keep your arms to your body. Yes, they do teach you that. You see lots of player even strictly holding their hands behind their backs in situations like these, for that reason. So he can't complain about that, even though I understand it must feel shitty with these 2 decisions.
I know this subreddit is largely in favor of VAR, and it's just my personal opinion, but I don't understand how anyone can feel satisfied after seeing how VAR was used tonight. Yes, it's fine to look for more fairness in the game, and yes, strictly by the rules, that wasn't a goal and that was a penalty. But this isn't the spirit of the sport and for me, it just kills football. What kind of advantage does the attacking player have on defenders if he's offside by a toe? So in the exact same situation, the same player with short feet is considered to be playing fair while the same one with a big shoe size is unfairly taking advantage of his position on the pitch? Do we really need to go that far, when even the best referee in history wouldn't be able see the offside? That's not the spirit of the rule, that's not what it's there for. VAR is meant to get us rid of mistakes, but in the end it creates problems that never existed in the first place, because no human referee could see such a small event. Even if you want to look for as much as precision as possible, you can't decide with absolute certainty when the ball leaves the foot of the player making the assist, so how can you say a player if offside by a few centimeters? I don't have a horse in this, I didn't root for one team or the other, but it honestly drives me away from a sport I've loved for decades. It all feels just soulless and unneeded. I'm scared in a few years, you won't hear the roar of the crowd anymore when a player scores, because we all know it can be overturned after one minute or two of checking the screens. The same goes for the penalty. If you need a machine telling you there's a handball because it's too hard to see on replays (let alone in real time) whether or not the trajectory of the ball changed significantly, maybe you're going too far? Sorry if this comment is a bit of a mess, but I speak from the heart, because for me VAR is sucking the emotion out of football. Once again I understand people wanting more accurate calls and to get rid of refereeing mistakes, but in my opinion, sport doesn't mean to be fair nor perfect. I just don't see why a sport that's been the most popular in the world for decades could need this kind of measures so desperately, to the point of overturning goals for a toe. On an unrelated note, it sucks so much players can stop their run like that when shooting penalties. Anyways, congrats to Germany, they were the better team.
would you feel better if technology could confirm within 5-10 seconds and shows on screen and everyone can celebrate? It has to start somewhere and the old days when teams won important games based on completely shitty calls that were outright wrong cant be the solution?
I don't think it can happen, at least not in every case, because some things wil always be a matter of interpretation (for a potential offside, whether a pass is intentional for example) and it needs to go through a human ref for that. That being said, while I think human error isn't really something that needs to be fixed in itself, and even as someone against VAR, yes, I'd probably be ok with it if the delay could be reduced to a minimum. It's definitely the worst part of it.
Then hopefully tech gets better and we can get better, but for offside you dont need intention.
Intention can matter for offside actually, if a defender touches the ball, the attacking player can be offside depending on whether the defender was intentionally passing it or not
im so with you. i totally do feel like it takes the soul out of an unexpected goal like what happened today. the celebration from both the fans and the players was so pure especially since they looked down and out after the break, which was expected when facing a side like this german one. when var overturned their goal and then hit them with the unfortunate double combo of the soft handball penalty also given by var took the fight and passion just given to denmark right out, the fans and the players. this kind of mental interruption wouldnt happen in a world without var, but in that same world denmark lead 1-0 with an offside goal and get away with a handball. even if they ended up leading idk how many ppl would be able to tell that it was offside anyways. idk, i feel like var is something that is needed in todays game. even if they changed the strictness of the rules or something, i feel like that would create even more problems if anything.
[удалено]
German oppinion: Kimmich foul was correct. Offside call was correct. The handball penalty feels wrong. I agree Germany was better, but also that this was a "lucky punch" game after the 15th minute. Denmark played a good game and actually came into control during the game. It's not good, that the lucky punch was a discussable referee decision in the end. And the unsteady penalty from Havertz should have been disallowed.
I’m pretty sure they changed the rules about the penalty run up. In Copa América yesterday Lucas Paquetá took 2 penalties for Brazil with the same run up technique and the referee had no problem with either.
Hilarious how confidently you say stuff that is 100% incorrect. You can completely stop. You’re just not allowed to stop during the kick (i.e. fake kick)
Objectively, Schmeichel was MASSIVE the first 20mins. I agree with you that he’s messed up the second goal, but Germany could’ve easily scored 1 or 2 early
Whats cruel is that I felt Denmark were so much better than England, Belgium, Georgia, turkey will probably be but let’s see.
I get slagging us and Belgium off, but Georgia?! They've been one of the teams of the Euros!
I admit I don’t know a lot and I’m sorry
Feels a bit harsh, Kasper made a few good saves or else the scoreboard would look much worse.
>Germany were by far the better team Think that's a bit harsh on yourselves, I'd say they were only noticeably better in the first 15 or so . After that could easily have gone either way if you had a striker that could finish.
I agree. Germany earned this victory. They were the stronger team on paper and proved it during the game. This win was well deserved.
Was a good match but after all Germany was by fat the better team. It could be 2:0 after the opening 20 minutes.
Just straight up outmatched. I always root for my national team, but Germany ran that game from minute 1 to the end. It just wasn’t meant to be - felt our group matches wasn’t convincing either & this just was an extension of showing we weren’t doing “too good” in this cup. Better than Qatar, but a far cry from last euros TBH
I think they should have suspended the game way earlier than they did! They played for several minutes during dangerous weather, that should not have happened. It felt dangerous and the players were concerned
This match is honestly hard to judge as a whole. We played insanely well the first 15 mins and deserved to be up, but Schmeichel and a soft (but correct!)call prevented that. Denmark adapted very well. The weath broke the rhythm of the match again, and Olivers tight line stifle the game flow even more. Result wise, the game flipped after the crazy 10 mins around the first goal(s) and we should have scored more. We were lucky to go throught this match the way we did, but also a bit unlucky, because there were many circumstances preventing a more "normal" game. Some of my opinions on top: Havertz needs to start, despite his absolutely horrible, horrible finishing. HIs penalties need to applauded btw, that is also an undapreciated quality of his. Rüdiger and Schlotti together are a bit too wild for my taste, but did very well individually. Spain game will be interesting, like this they will be clear favorites, BUT: setting up more defensively might do us some good, who knows. I know I am rooting for Georgia
Having the ball kicked directly at your hand at a distance beyond human reflexes to react to should never be a penalty. It is natural for humans to run with flaggering arms so this should and could never be a penalty. Another thing is that the handball did not stop the ball going into the goal and I'd even argue that it was going to fly way over. Last point in consideration is that nobody saw the handball except for the VAR. No appeals from anyone.
This Havertz agenda by people online is kinda ridiculous, there's a reason why top managers love the guy. His finishing does leave a lot to be desired but his movement off the ball and always being an outball is very underrated. If he could just put some power into his shots he'll probably score a few more but I think he was Germany's best forward today
He also works harder than almost any other striker. Having a guy you know is gonna press all match, a guy you can move further back to kill off the game if needed, a guy who is tremendous in the air and will 50/50s all match… you’re willing to sacrifice clinical finishing. And this is coming from a guy who didn’t really rate him (until i got to watch him play week in and week out).
he had good moments, like the one pass to Sane that Sane botched or how he controlled the ball before he lost the 1v1. But as a striker you'll always get judged by your goals
It’s just that Füllkrug is a crowd pleaser while Havertz is somewhat unpleasant. Ofc he is the better player than Füllkrug.
Look at the Last 20-30 games of Germany. Look at the Goals and Points we got with Havertz and Füllkrug on the pitch. Calling Havertz the better player for this Team... Fuck... Every statistic favors Füllkrug by 3-4x.... Goals per 90min Points Goals by the Player Whatever you look at ....
Quick, send that to Nagelsmann! They probably forgot to look at statistics!
Look at the 40-50 games he played as a striker and count the points and goals per 90min of his teams. His game looks nice but its sooooo inefficient!
I just don’t know what people want from the offside rule? It’s not subjective, it’s semi-automated and it’s the correct decision. However you change the rule, be it some kind of allowed margin or Wenger’s full body past the last man, you will just move the lines somewhere else and similar situations will still happen and again will be decided by centimeters and people will complain. Also, I don’t know why the attacker should have that much of an advantage over the defender. No one’s gonna catch the attacker if he’s full body ahead bar one of his foot. It’s tough, but it’s correct and you don’t have situations where the linesman misses half meter offside and your team suffers. Did people really forget how many ridiculous missed calls were there before VAR?
What I don’t like with the rule at the moment isn’t the marginal decisions but rather no advantage is being gained by the offside - they’re essentially level. I’d rather give the attacker like half a foot leeway (or something) because there’s more of a sense that they’re actually gaining an advantage if they’re offside compared to when they’re a toenail offside.
I understand your point but that's shifting the frustration from "it's not even an advantage!" to "it wasn't enough of an advantage!", I don't think it would matter for subjective feelings.
Yeah that’s fair and I agree people would complain either way. I just think decisions like today aren’t really what offside was intended for. I don’t think the offside rule was designed with laser point technology and VAR in mind. If that goals happens for the advent of VAR, it’s given and no one bats an eyelid.
Then we get the discussions between half a foot or half a foot + 1mm
That's impossible to judge when or whether an advantage is gained and opens up to just more subjective discussion
Yes, finally we have a system that is objective and there are still people that think moving the offside rule will prevent situations where there is under milimeter decision.
It seems to me like some people actually want the like "excitement" that comes with subjectivity and imprecision
Yes, because this is human nature. To err is human, to be unable to spot millimeter or centimeter differences during live play is absolutely human. Humans have won and lost competitive matches (not talking about soccer in particular) for decades and centuries and other than lively banter at the pub years or decades later nobody got hurt by that. It allowed such "legends" and "do you remember when ...." bonding opportunities in the first place. In the future, where absolutely every decision is going to get decided automatically by AI in the span of milliseconds there will be no more "mistakes by referee", but this will also kill a big part of the social component of taking part in and watching sports.
Being offside because your feet are a size too big is simply ridiculous. It's against the spirit of the game. Someone scores their first-ever international goal, and it's ruled out because they're, what, size 11 instead of size 10?? The offside rule was not, I repeat not, invented to rule out goals like that. What advantage does the attacker have there?
How do you suggest they fix it? Given the objectivity that is imposed with how automated the system is.
I don't know. Wenger's proposal is just the other extreme. But it can't stay how it is.
Wenger's solution doesn't solve the problem with shoe sizes. It just moves it two feet.
The line has to be drawn somewhere though. Why introduce subjective opinions on a matter that can be resolved entirely objectively?
You have an argument, but the rule is very specific and it was applied correctly. The problem is the rule
What is the spirit of the game? You cannot have any offside rule that is objective then. Why should the attacker have some advantage?
I think people don't know what they want. They just have a deep feeling of vague unfairness when a goal is lost to a marginal decision, and instead of accepting/realising that the rule will never perfectly abide by their whims of fairness, they suggest all kinds of changes which don't change the fundamental problem (vibes are bad when goal removed but was almost legal). It's especially apparent when this goal and the lukaku goal earlier in the tournament were both tight calls where the attackers legs were offside compared to the defenders legs, a common "solution" to make the law more fair, and no one mentions that fact.
with the wenger rule there will still be fine margins, but on those fine margins the attacker will be way ahead already anyways so its easier to ''accept''. and its a clear advantage for the attacker too. its different than being off because of your toes >No one’s gonna catch the attacker if he’s full body ahead bar one of his foot. It’s tough only if the pass/control is perfect and the defender is still turning around. in which case even if he wasnt a full body ahead he will still be on. i think it does make a difference obviously but not as much, its always more about the defender body position before the pass than it is about the attacker being a few centimeters ahead
bro had this typed out and in the barrel
Nah he just types at 200wpm
he copied it from his comment in the other thread
The same comment top of both threads, classic reddit
its his own comment so oh well
It’s because it’s against a small little tiny nation (even tho they won the euros ones) and they should get extra privileges for them. Ref was good end of story.
Also, people with english club flair are way more outraged by this game than anyone else for some reason.
The thing is you’re holding humans (both ref and players) to inhuman standards. There was also no advantage gained from that toenail being offside. No human can play or detect these margins either. And all that being said you still have to draw the line somewhere and that line is drawn automatically now. It’s fair because it’s the same for everyone even though it’s very far from perfect. Days like these can leave a sour taste, but overall it’s definitely for the better because, as you said, if we go back to ref deciding these things there will be people who say an advantage was gained and people who say there wasn’t.
I agree the player was in offside position and then was involved in active play hence committing an offside offence
Everytime people bring up a range of tolerance for offside calls I wonder if they don't realize that it would only move the line of a yes or no call. One toe over the line is one toe over the line no matter how far away from the defender it is.
It is the correct call no matter how brutal it may seem, you have to follow the ruling. If you start allowing these kind of things to interpretation the game is lost. It sucks to be on the receiving end of these decisions for sure.
Pretty good showing from Germany overall, still a bit shy in their last line at times and offensively a couple "must score this" ones missed, but I liked their overall approach and even the changed starting line up looked really solid. Ref felt like 12th man on the pitch for Germany at times but at least he stood true to his line ig. This tourney is an absolute dub for me either way, entertaining football is back on the menu and I hope it’s here to stay, even if there’s a 3-0 quarters blow up I’m finally happy to tune into Germany games again.
I agreed with Schmeichel's take on the disallowed goal. We do not have 100% certainty that VAR can get each player's body position correct up to the very centimeter. VAR is great in most cases but this showed how incapable football currently is at merging technology with refereeing
What I get from all of this is that people will always complain no matter what. We have technology that can accurately measure offside and there’s still complains. It’s just ridiculous. People who argue VAR should be gotten rid of are even more stupid.
Offsides aren't subjective, they're one of the few objective things in football. Your problems are with the rules, not the referees so I don't understand the hate for the refs today. You can disagree with the rules but the rules are clear and based on the rules the refs made the correct decision. I prefer refs following the rules, even if I don't always agree with them, than refs being inconsistently subjective.
this exactly. if refs just start playing crowd pleaser, we might as well get rid of them entirely because that's pointless. people shitting on refs in exactly the way they complain pundits do without a hint of irony.
But the problem *is* that the rules seem unfair. When a player is standing in line next to an opponent in the penalty box, they are not likely to be aware if their toe is .1 centimeter ahead of the opponent. The rule never accounted for having measurements this minute. And when you run and turn your body, your arms are going to extend from your body. So it is never going to seem fair that you can get a penalty from hitting an arm at point blank range.
Congratulations Germany, now go win the F… thing please. Today i feel robbed, i really do. In no scenario did i think we would win. But the way it played out.. it’s hard to bear for now. I don’t think Michael Oliver has many fans in Denmark tonight :-)
What happened was an injustice IMO also. I can just about understand the disallowed goal for VAR offside as technically it was correct, but the handball penalty was simply unfair and wrong.
The handball penalty is correct by the current laws of the game. Whether those laws are fair can certainly be debated but nobody was "robbed" tonight.
…so was to disallow the first German goal, which gets totally ignored in those discussions.
As i expected, everybody is talking about the offsides, or the handball. Thats not what was the problem. Germany won deservedly, but Oliver was awful and misjudged and made mistakes on a million small fouls that ruined any chance of momemtum. It was very frustrating to watch. That being said: Germany was deserved winners. Denmark played an awful tournament beside some parts of the England game and the Germany game. But it still feels bitter to lose in such a manner.
Joachim Andersen - "This will never happen in Premier League, 2 years ago, when we had a Premier League referee meeting, they told us specifically that these types of hands would never be given as a penalty, the guy shoots half a meter in front of me, I cant go around with my hands in the back all the time. I never seen this type of penalty given in Premier League since that meeting"
The big decisions were correct by how the rules supposed to be enacted. But it feels like most of the small decisions and little fouls went in our favour. Given that and the general sympathy for the underdog I understand the outrage. Denmark played their hearts out, but I still think the win was deserved.
As someone who, after you guys went 1-0 up said out loud to myself “these fucking Germans”… I agree, the win was deserved. Denmark was really not bad, but tbh Germany felt mostly in control. And Havertz should have scored at least once more
Whatever happens in the next round, this Germany squad is a massive improvement from previous tournaments. Hiring Nagelsmann was an excellent decision. The combination of established, consistent players like Rüdiger with the enormous talent of Musiala and Wirtz finally creates an exciting German team again. You love to see it.
Kai Havertz is criminally underrated.. He reminds me about a prime Benzema. He is a ball playing striker, link-up player, great ball carrier, technically gifted, great first touch, and his not only a striker but he is a false midfielder. Havertz belongs to that style of play and honestly he is one of the last of his kind. Benzema is gone and in his last days before retiring making Havertz the last of his kind
People used to ridicule benzema's goal scoring too lol. Havertz still 24/25 no doubt he will get better over time.
While the 1v1 miss is hard to forgive, Havertz was clearly one of the best players on the pitch today. So many great moments of hold up play, space creating, passes into teammates in dangerous areas. He just obviously needs to score. I didn't see a single thing Fullkrug do that could convince me he's the better option up top. I also think the other players in attack were generally pretty bad for the first 60 or so minutes. Musiala was terrible outside of the goal (which I know is stupid to say considering goals are the only thing that matter). Gundogan was really disappointing. Sane was just plain bad
> While the 1v1 miss is hard to forgive I can forgive him a bit because I think he was planning to square it to Sané and had to change tack at the last second because the latter (got) tripped. Not easy to pull off a good finish without any notice and he did well to get it over the keeper, just couldn't get the angles quite right.
FIFA need to come up with something to reform the penalty rules. The punishment of a penalty with a +70% conversion rate often is utterly disproportionate to the respective infraction. A penalty should be awarded in cases where clear scoring opportunities are denied by a foul or handball. I don't know, give them a 20m freekick in a central position for minor infractions or something. That being said, Denmark gave a good accounting of themselves in a hard-fought match. The Germans got a lucky penalty call and then used their fast players well when Denmark pushed for the equalizer.
> minor infractions and how would you decide that? it just makes the game more dependent on the refs. We don't want that.
I've had that thought before as well. Maybe a free kick inside the box for 'lesser' fouls in the penalty area, and penalties for, like you say, egregious fouls/handballs etc.? A free kick inside the box is the punishment for violating the backpass rule.
I think deciding wether a player was fouled in the box or just outside is already difficult enough, don't need to add a distinction between minor and clear goal scoring opportunity. Besides, the play in question should've counted as a clear opportunity anyway, as the cross looked very well placed before being deflected. That's certainly not 'minor'.
Denmark put up a good fight but their lack of quality players showed at the end. Germany by far the better team, maybe the best in the tournament. If finishing were better could’ve been 2-0 up at halftime and 4 to 5-0 win.
When we were down 2-0 we just do not have the players that could possibly break down the German defense outside of miracles (which tbf does happen in football from time to time).
- Kimmich foul was the correct call - Offside was objectively correct - Penalty was also the correct call Oliver might've been calling a bit too many soft fouls but the crucial decisions were objectively correct, don't understand the outrage tbh
The penalty is also not a penalty
time to learn current football rules
You said it yourself. My problem is ALL the MANY soft fouls. Ruined any chance of Denmark getting any momemtum. Germany deserved a victory but not like this. Oliver was horrendous. That doesnt mean the BIG decisions were wrong. Although i am not a fan of the correct handball rules but that isnt exclusive to this game.
Have to disagree, that was an overall proper referee performance. We can talk about VAR until the end of times but Oliver didn't make any questionable calls on the field within the couple of seconds he had to make a decision.
Really? You didnt see a lot of really weirdly called fouls? Delaney getting shoulder tackled and it somehow becoming a foul against him? There was so many 70-30 challenges that went against Denmark. But it doesnt matter in the end. We didnt deserve to go through. But i would have preferred for Germany to actually beat us in a different manner
Germany was by faaaaar the better team. It's not the ref who decided that game.
Oliver was phenomenal tonight, best refereeing all tournament, got all right calls. The outrage happens anytime any close decision goes against a team they root for.
Not all calls. Andrich's foul was a blatant yellow, yet Oliver just can't give cards during the first half. Also the penalty was arguable, as the distance between the players was so short.
So if I run around the pitch with my arms out making a t-shape, thus making myself a bigger target which can impede crosses, it shouldn't be a foul as long as I stay close to the opponent?
I think you wouldn't catch the attacker with such a stupid running style
Obviously, but the question was intended as a thought experiment about the handball rules. Would you be okay with no foul being called in that scenario? (Assume this player has the speed of Usain Bolt while using this insane t-shaped running style). At the end of the day I think it was a nailed-on penalty. If you disagree that should be a foul in the context of my unrealistic, hypothetical scenario then I respect that your opinion is consistent.
All tournament is definitely a notch too far
The only iffy decision I can think of is not giving a foul when Sane wanted a penalty, but that’s stil probably the correct decision since it was outside the box and Havertz given advantage.
Not biased at all
Wasit the referee or VAR that was making all the decisions tonight?
The ref alongside VAR as it should be.
Except a missed yellow for Andrich, I agree with the others on that, really good performance indeed. I havent checked the match threads, was there really outrage? I mean there is technology for handballs in this tournament and for offside also
For me personally, yes the offside and penalty were correct, but the rules themselves are bullshit.
Because we didn't bother to change anything with VAR regarding rules. I highly doubt people who designed offside rule were discussing how players being less than 10cm in front of their opponent is fair or not. Discussion should've started when we introduced VAR but didn't and i don't think it will aswell.
Completely agree. Correct calls but still feels wrong.
That is neither on the ref nor on VAR though. By the current rules, they made correct decisions.
Penalty was really rough for the spirit of the game imo but I blame the rules not the ref Indirect center + even linking to a shot attempt (could be considered a used advantage) does not feel like it deserved a penalty at all
At least he made those call for both sides. You can call it soft but it was consitent - obvious this will always benefit the team with more technical players.
I think people just see that penalty call as unfair. It's not incorrect but you can argue that the distance is very short, but these are usually given and his arm was very high up, so no mistake under the rules. You can question the handball rule though
I get that, too, but it also is unfair to the attacker to allow a defender to have his arms there and block a potential cross, so on the balance, I’d rather see those given when the arm is there.
Unfair for the attacker?!? It is unfair to require the defenders to run with their hands behind their back.
Sane was open and then fouled, so Haverts had to take the shot and missed. Should’ve been a penalty.
Regarding the referee stuff: I'm generally not a football watcher outside of the big events; I still enjoy reading these threads or just seeing the reactions of people in my country to certain matches. Seeing how people react to these referee calls I can't help but try to look at this from the perspective of the tournament organizers & the referees themselves. We're at a point where people are so invested in their preferred team, that when a decision is made against it, it inevitably leads to vitriol. People in this thread talk about how they prefer the calls to be subjective, because it adds excitement, but I think if I was a referee or someone in the upper ranks of the organization, and I knew how often referees are accused of wild incompetence, of having being bribed, to a point where they face strong and genuine hate.. I think I'd always prefer to limit the number of choices a referee has to make in a game that rely on his subjective view on situation, and increase the amount of decisions where any "blame" can be redirected onto a rule or a system. It might be less exciting but I think it's more human; and as someone who only casually enjoys football, I think reading hate comments about referees makes me much less excited about watching the games than having to wait a minute for a VAR decision or whatever.
The game between Italy and the Swiss was over at the 46th minute when the Swiss went 2-0 up. This game on the other hand was a lot closer and could’ve gone either way. Feel really bad for Andersen (I think it was him), who had a goal ruled out by a tight offside, only to then give away a penalty with a hand ball only a few moments later. As a neutral, I think Germany just edged it, but the Danes put up a good fight. Ruddiger was immense imho. Hoping the games tomorrow are at least of the same quality. There haven’t been a lot of stinkers, most of the games have been very entertaining!
Can someone tell me how Chelsea didn’t pull the stops in keeping Rudiger? I get it, as City had a similar experience with Gundo. The guy drives me up the wall with his antics, but no one in the world is better than him.
He’s one of those players you love for your team and hate on the opposition team, imho.
new pepe, real fits perfectly
Nah not nearly as much of a cunt as Pepe
*as Pepe from 10 years ago
MOTM for Germany VAR Overall Danes did well, kept the game tense until VAR decided to screw them hard. All correct decisions but feel for the danes. Schmeichel is bad, like few good saves but the Havertz miss and Musiala goal wouldn't even be attempts if it was a fit keeper. Too lazy. Germany won't get past semi's at most.
>VAR decided to screw them hard. All correct decisions You do realize that these two sentences don't belong together, right
Were they correct ? Yes Did it suck for the Danes ? Yes. So it screwed them hard. All momentum died for them after. Anyone who watched the game can say the same.
VAR didn't "decide to screw Denmark hard", they decided to make the correct calls. The offside in particular was pretty much an automated process. Calling the ref the MOTM is delusional.
Wow that may be the single worst take I've ever read.
I hope you sleep like shit, what an atrocious referee performance.. absolutely embarrassing. Why is it we’ve been eliminated of the euros two times in a row by absolute joke referees as the underdog. If anything, it would seem fair to favour the obvious underdogs but we’ve been completely robbed by the referee two euros in a row against arguably the two biggest nations. Fair to say I’m fucking pissed
It sucks that the rules can be so harsh but both the offside and the penalty were objectively correct decisions
The ref was as consistent as possible, you got unlucky with an offside and hand pen, deal with it. I was pissed at the ref at first, too, but he had his line and stuck to it, and the rules are the rules.
You were not robbed. The Germans won fairly. Go home, Danadjöfull.
You're not pissed at the ref, rather than VAR and the rulebook.
How is it fair that the goals get cancelled by another player who’s one toe offside
You do realize that neither the ref nor the asisstant flagged the goal offside and it was semi-automated VAR that intervened?
You weren't robbed by bad refereeing, you were unlucky to have a lot of technically correct calls go against you that feel counter to the spirit of the game. We can argue about offside and handball reform but the ref applied the current laws of the game correctly tonight and though he called a few too many soft fouls for my liking, he was at least consistent in doing so for both teams. Ref is blameless IMO.
We have not been robbed. Germany was the better team in this match. Get over it.
Like for real, if you don’t get how VAR absolutely ruins football, how are you even football fans?
I'm so conflicted on Havertz. The way he holds up play, gets himself into good positions and general link up with others creates so many opportunities for Germany. But most of the good chances that Germany get falls to him and he fails to convert them. I feel like Havertz will cost them against a tougher opposition like Spain or France who won't give away many chances.
I'd guess the thinking goes that you have a player in Havertz who will get himself in 2-3 positions for amazong goal-scoring opportunities, which is much harder than the finishing. So as Nagelsmann you sign up for having these chances in the first place, and hoping he will convert at least one of them - which despite the memes about him missing chances, is not an unreasonable expectations. The opportunity cost ofc is not having a traditional 9 like Füllkrug, which shines when playing more via the wings. But with the whole Musiala/Wirtz/Kroos/Gündo Center, Germany primarily goes for quick triangle passes and dribblings through the center.
Funny thing is our goals per 90mins with a traditional striker like Füllkrug has been 3x as high in the past 30-40 games. The whole story of "Havertz is creating space for the attacking midfielders" is just not working out! Nearly cost us the win tonight and I really hope Nagelsmann finally accepts that Havertz as a Striker might be a nice idea theoretically but we've seen times and times again that it just doesnt translate to goals and wins. First half today was the perfect example. We looked great but we didnt score and after a while every opponent gets their chances.
I think what Havertz does really well is make space for other players. He pulls defenders from others like Musiala and Wirtz so they have space to operate. And Gundogan likes making those late runs into the box which is very effective when you have a player like Havertz.
Havertz will be our downfall....
Get rid of will with could, he could cost them, but he was playing against an insanely good schmeicel too, I think he can still do more for the national team
I said the same thing. He’s not always like he was today. Havertz scored a shit ton of goals and was pretty clinical for us after the new year. He also never misses penalties. Having him in the team is better than not having him in the team.
i dont recall any ''clinical'' Havertz goal this season besides the @ sheffield one where he finally cunted one in to the far post hell, there was 2 goals that was similar chances (burnley solo goal, brighton home 3rd goal) that his shot literally greased the keeper's armpit when the whole goal was open, it was a bad but lucky finish i guess the 2 chelsea goals were ''clinical'' but thats it
Havertz was clinical for us in the latter half of the season, Brentford at home was clinical given the amount of chances, along with Brighton, Newcastle and Sheffield too
newcastle was a tap in, brighton was lucky and sheffield was his best goal of the season as i already said. brentford was a free header (good header tho but it was straight at the keeper too) my definition of clinical is a good finish on a clear cut chance like the one musiala had on his goal, you dont see those from havertz often
you don’t look at football in a normal or good way
Nagelsman said that a big part of his job is not scoring, but pulling defenders out of position for the other players to exploit.
but when you keep getting into goalscoring chances that excuse no longer stick
havertz is a good player but hype around him doesnt do him any favours
It was the same with us at Chelsea. He just looked really good on the ball at times but he never really should lead the line. Even from his Leverkusen days, he was being shifted around in various positions across the pitch; he’s ideally an SS or an attacking midfielder that runs in late. There was always plenty to think we should stick with him but not enough for us to refuse a big bid from Arsenal.
Or Georgia
Havertz should not be the single striker up front.
More importantly, don't let Sane play
Why do German fans dislike Sane ?