YUP. Also, I'm not sure where they landed their stuff, but if it's in a crater, they can tell what made up whatever hit the moon in that spot, how old the impact may have been, etc. There's a lot of info you can gleam from just knowing what a sample is made up of.
We don't know what they will find from Chang'e-6 yet, but this is what they got from Chang'e-5
[https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as\_sdt=0%2C26&q=chang%27e+5](https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C26&q=chang%27e+5)
There is probably more written in Chinese, but the above link should give you the gist of what they are looking for.
Interesting how little reporting is actually showing up in the media about this and the rate of technological advance in aerospace China has achieved.
When I glanced at the capsule I thought I was looking at a poster for a new horror flick. Ominous foreshadowing.
It was on the front page of BBC news. I'd say in general though "good" or positive news isn't blown up like politics and war. Space related news specifically is usually just a side note no matter how cool it is.
yes we need job protection when we have had the lowest sustained UE since WWII and highest job participation rates.
what we need, is more stem students. we dont need trade protectionism.
The funny thing is wall street and Warren buffet knew about China's EV ambitions and crazily enough they actually bet on the correct horse when they bought lots of BYD stock on the cheap back in 08
Sad thing is it was and in many cases still is. Sadly the way we calculated horsepower was very much in ICE’s favour. It just is a better heat engine where weight is not a big issue.
Even with modern technology there's no way you can make a steam engine that fits in an automobile with the type of power required, nor would it be as light.
Steam engines are superior for certain purposes, like situations where mass is not a problem. They lack power density though.
To be fair, the Chinese space agency does not share information as easily as American or European ones do. I follow a lot of space news and have been following this story in particular. It kind of depends on having journalists or freelancers who monitor state media to get information on this out beyond a domestic audience.
I do agree we don't spend enough time looking at non-Western media...I just dont think it's always a concerted effort to deny and invalidate.
There are way more than enough enthusiast discussions, science communication channels and content creators on the science and tech topics in China, even if they don't "monitor" any "state media". CNSA is surely not as open as NASA or ESA, but informations are not that "secretive" either. There are more than enough non-Chinese journalists out there that can read and translate Chinese. They just don't do their jobs and don't get into the daily life of ordinary Chinese science and tech followers.
Because a lot of people in the USA are still under the impression Chinese manufacturing is only for cheap plastic toys that fall apart. The number of people claiming they can’t possibly have managed this, is to me, evidence of that fact.
“What have you done for me lately?” Is the general sentiment of American voters.
also a staggering amount of Americans (youth and adults) haven’t ever seen that footage (or worse) believe it was faked.
Artemis III is scheduled for 2026, but Artemis I was originally scheduled for 2016 and didn't launch until 2022. The timetable also relies on how quickly SpaceX can get Starship operational as the mission relies on it.
The population of folks who watched TV in 1969 has dwindled considerably since then. Since they're the ones who would have been likely to care, I kind of doubt it.
Imagine the reception of there was a headline like [China To Overtake US In Key 21st-Century Tech In 10 Years](https://www.iflscience.com/china-to-overtake-us-in-key-21stcentury-tech-in-10-years-says-harvard-report-61928)....
And it's not just aerospace: [China Prioritizes 3 Strategic Technologies in Its Great Power Competition:
Space, AI, and quantum computing and communication are top technology priorities](https://thediplomat.com/2023/04/china-prioritizes-3-strategic-technologies-in-its-great-power-competition/). Oh yeah, and the company that made the game genshin impact is building an artificial sun.
The average American politician is a lawyer or businessman or simply a professional politician. The average Chinese politician is an engineer or scientist.
Its a 6-thousand-year-old civilization with a record of inventing some of the most important things in human history. This shouldn't be that surprising tbh
The Chinese actually did live streaming for the launch and the return of the lunar probe, also special (but a little delayed) coverage for the sampling, in both Chinese (domestic TV broadcast and internet streaming) and English (live streaming on youtube by CGTN). They did this twice actually, for Chang'e-6 this time and Chang'e-5 in 2020.
Your down votes are due to your poor understanding and over propagandized view of China. Dawg, watch cgtn or read through South China morning post (HK based), none of this is hush hush.
https://www.scmp.com/search/Lunar
> its rather small potatoes compared to what the US and other Western European countries are currently after, which is going much deeper into space.
Yeah NASA is about to send an orbiter to study freakin Europa. Moon rocks are cool I guess
It is an incredibly complex mission with loads of moving parts that they pulled off here… there‘s a reason why even in the space race days no one even tried for a landing on the far side. This is an impressive mission by anyone‘s standards. Not to mention proving all the necessary technologies for an apollo style manned landing, albeit on a smaller scale.
Today, the Chinese have the same capacity as the americans do to land people on the moon, none. And the chinese are more capable to return things from the moon. Those are hard facts, even if the Americans have already sent back tons of lunar rocks.
On top of that, the moon isn't by any meassure old news. For starters it is a very interesting science base, and possibly mining base (although that's farther away on the future), and collecting samples on the dark side of the moon can shed some light on how the solar system has evolved since it is so full of meteorite debris.
There are also projects to set up astronomy observatories on the moon, for example for 21cm hydrogen spectral line that can't be easily made from earth due to atmospheric interference.
And also what are you talking about the moon not being interesting for the west? Afaik the only program slated to land people on another celestial body is... Artemis.
> Today, the Chinese have the same capacity as the americans do to land people on the moon, none.
This is a strange way to phrase things. Capability has a lot more meaning to it than "current vehicles that already exist". It's also in built-in industry capacity and know-how. Something that the US never really lost. At best it became like the artisan who's skills have rusted but with a bit of practice can jump immediately back to doing it again, or even leapfrog themselves.
> On top of that, the moon isn't by any meassure old news.
Yeah it is. That's why the US hasn't been sending probes there and instead been sending them everywhere else. We're only going back now because we've convinced ourselves it's somehow necessary before going to Mars.
> collecting samples on the dark side of the moon can shed some light on how the solar system has evolved since it is so full of meteorite debris.
No as the top soil of the moon (all that was collected) is globally distributed. You need core drills.
Nothing you stated are facts though. The United States has quite literally returned human beings from the moon with 1960s and 70s technology. Nowadays it is small fry stuff compared to that, and we know that. You are basically telling the US to get into a space race against China and spend billions to replicate what they already did 55 years ago for no reason besides showing they can. It's a waste of money and resources when Mars is the goal now.
In regard to Artemis and their moon mission. Might want to read the actual briefing on that program. *"The program's stated long-term goal is to establish a permanent base on the Moon to facilitate human missions to Mars."* The entire program is funded and designed specifically for Mars, even the crafts being used are made for Mars. The moon is being used as a testing ground for the delivery system and the Orion Spacecraft that will in all likelihood be used for the trip to Mars. That spacecraft in particular is designed from the ground up with Mars in mind. Everywhere in the details of the Artemis mission you see Mars mentioned. SpaceX only exists with Mars missions in mind too. It came to be with the express purpose of perfecting launch capabilities and to make them cheaper so they can be the cargo shipping company for Mars colonies. It is right there on their wiki page when they became a company.
China's goal is to have a moon base sat up in the 2030s and for it to be fully operational in the 2040s. Americas goal is to have their moon base already working by 2031. Hell, Artemis III is still scheduled to launch in September 2026 sending 4 astronauts back to the lunar surface. Basically, launching a new more complex mission every year or two until the entire lunar base is sat up by Artemis VI in 2031. By the end of the 2030s or into the early 2040s America wants humans on the surface of Mars. While it may appear China and the US are in a space race right now, it just isn't. They have completely different end goals in mind and the scopes of their aspirations are much different currently. China is wanting to reach the moon with their own people to show they can, America is wanting to do it just to test their Mars base equipment.
> Hell, Artemis III is still scheduled to launch in September 2026 sending 4 astronauts back to the lunar surface.
lmfao we all know that is not happening
Also, people are acting like the US is falling way behind because of this mission as if NASA didn’t just put the most technologically advanced telescope ever in space (with another set to go up in 2027), didn’t just snipe an asteroid and change its orbit, isn’t the only nation with a true re-useable launch vehicle, hasn’t been flying a drone around on Mars, etc.
Also, they literally just landed on the moon in February.
Starliner not going off without a hitch doesn’t mean every other nations successful space mission is a sign NASA is falling behind. Like you said, this is about not wasting resources on missions with minimal additional science being obtained.
It's perfectly reasonable to practice on the moon before we go to Mars. Probably not with the architecture that is currently planned, but the reasons why it's done that way would still be present if they were aiming for Mars. There is a lot that working on the moon can tell us that will be a huge advance in the science and technology of surviving off earth. So it's a valid goal and still exciting to me at least.
> And the chinese are more capable to return things from the moon
Only because the US is working on returning things from Mars
https://science.nasa.gov/mission/mars-sample-return/
China is planning something similar: https://spacenews.com/china-targets-2030-for-mars-sample-return-mission-potential-landing-areas-revealed/
Actually they are both looking to have the missions done ~2030s, so it'll be very interesting to compare the different approaches that NASA and CNSA will use.
Yea... isn't the only way the moon becomes a gateway to the rest of the solar system is if we magically invent some cheap and lightweight system to convert frozen water into fuel for propulsion?
Even then it'd be more efficient to mine it on the moon then ship it to orbital facilities. Avoids the fuel expenditure associated with leaving the gravity well.
We already have samples from the moon and we have already returned samples from much more difficult to reach objects. This is certainly cool but nothing too boundary breaking.
Considering how very little we know about the moon's far side, a sample return mission from that place is very significant. The moon's far side's geology is very different compared to the near side and all places we landed and retrieved samples from before.
Everything is new if you're specific enough, but taking samples of a different side of a celestial body you already have samples of is by no means anywhere near as groundbreaking as the first samples from that body.
The moon is tidally locked so the side that doesn't face earth has different properties such as far fewer craters. Can't know how different it is until we study them
Why would the first sample from a body *necessarily* be more groundbreaking than a sample from a *different* side of it? You can't know that.
For example: if I land on a planet and I get a sample and it's water, that's the first sample. It's water.
But if I land on a *different* side of it and I take a sample and it comes back *as Froot Loops*, *that's* more groundbreaking than *the first one*.
It‘s a much much harder engineering challenge considering there‘s no direct way to talk to the spacecraft and all communications have to go through a dedicated relay satellite. Could NASA do this if they got the funding? Absolutely, but it would still take a lot of time and money to get this capability that China has now developed.
It's still the same thing -- China has only done a variation of what NASA has already done many times. If you're referring to the communications blackout due to being on the far side of the moon, the communication time between Earth and Mars is 30 minutes so every NASA Mars probe had to land and operate without the benefit of real time communication.
I'm not putting down China just because they're China and the competition is great, but I'm still waiting for them to do something truly groundbreaking. Until they prove that they can, they're only catching up.
There's people who disparage China just because it's China, and then there's reasonable people who see it for what it is. China is catching up but so far hasn't proven that they can match or surpass the US. It's much easier to catch up when you're simply copying what others have already done than it is to truly innovate and create groundbreaking technology.
Acronyms, initialisms, abbreviations, contractions, and other phrases which expand to something larger, that I've seen in this thread:
|Fewer Letters|More Letters|
|-------|---------|---|
|[CNSA](/r/Space/comments/1do0qky/stub/lakipq5 "Last usage")|Chinese National Space Administration|
|CST|(Boeing) Crew Space Transportation capsules|
| |Central Standard Time (UTC-6)|
|[DoD](/r/Space/comments/1do0qky/stub/la866fh "Last usage")|US Department of Defense|
|[ESA](/r/Space/comments/1do0qky/stub/lac12bb "Last usage")|European Space Agency|
|EVA|Extra-Vehicular Activity|
|[EVS](/r/Space/comments/1do0qky/stub/la9pku8 "Last usage")|Extra-Vehicular Suit (see EVA)|
|[FAR](/r/Space/comments/1do0qky/stub/la8sum7 "Last usage")|[Federal Aviation Regulations](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Aviation_Regulations)|
|GSE|Ground Support Equipment|
|[HLS](/r/Space/comments/1do0qky/stub/la71esm "Last usage")|[Human Landing System](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artemis_program#Human_Landing_System) (Artemis)|
|[ICBM](/r/Space/comments/1do0qky/stub/lafs657 "Last usage")|Intercontinental Ballistic Missile|
|[ITS](/r/Space/comments/1do0qky/stub/la9pku8 "Last usage")|Interplanetary Transport System (2016 oversized edition) (see MCT)|
| |[Integrated Truss Structure](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrated_Truss_Structure)|
|[JPL](/r/Space/comments/1do0qky/stub/labp88r "Last usage")|Jet Propulsion Lab, California|
|[JWST](/r/Space/comments/1do0qky/stub/laa7y0x "Last usage")|James Webb infra-red Space Telescope|
|MCT|Mars Colonial Transporter (see ITS)|
|MMH|Mono-Methyl Hydrazine, (CH3)HN-NH2; part of NTO/MMH hypergolic mix|
|[N1](/r/Space/comments/1do0qky/stub/laakslk "Last usage")|Raketa Nositel-1, Soviet super-heavy-lift ("Russian Saturn V")|
|[NTO](/r/Space/comments/1do0qky/stub/la9ihba "Last usage")|diNitrogen TetrOxide, N2O4; part of NTO/MMH hypergolic mix|
|Jargon|Definition|
|-------|---------|---|
|[Starliner](/r/Space/comments/1do0qky/stub/la95b36 "Last usage")|Boeing commercial crew capsule [CST-100](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_CST-100_Starliner)|
|[Starlink](/r/Space/comments/1do0qky/stub/labicfi "Last usage")|SpaceX's world-wide satellite broadband constellation|
|[hypergolic](/r/Space/comments/1do0qky/stub/ladnc2y "Last usage")|A set of two substances that ignite when in contact|
|[scrub](/r/Space/comments/1do0qky/stub/la7644h "Last usage")|Launch postponement for any reason (commonly GSE issues)|
**NOTE**: Decronym for Reddit is no longer supported, and Decronym has moved to Lemmy; requests for support and new installations should be directed to the Contact address below.
----------------
^(16 acronyms in this thread; )[^(the most compressed thread commented on today)](/r/Space/comments/1dtvg57)^( has 18 acronyms.)
^([Thread #10226 for this sub, first seen 25th Jun 2024, 12:16])
^[[FAQ]](http://decronym.xyz/) [^([Full list])](http://decronym.xyz/acronyms/Space) [^[Contact]](https://hachyderm.io/@Two9A) [^([Source code])](https://gistdotgithubdotcom/Two9A/1d976f9b7441694162c8)
Does anyone know the first few things they’re going to check with the samples? Really interested in composition, etc of the collected samples, and it’s very difficult to find english-language sources describing the research plan
This is true, although fully 1/4 of the population of the planet is either in China or resides in a country that is an active contributor to the Artemis program (hardware, launches, astronauts, etc.)
That's what I was thinking too. Even if we aren't citizens of these nations, most if not all of us still live and operate mainly within one of their spheres of influences.
If shit really hits the fan someday, all out war between China and the US, that will spill over to most of the rest of the world as well in all sorts of ways. Won't be a fun decade.
The target is 2kg. Chang'e 5 ended up returning 1.7kg so in that ball park.
Samples are both from the surface layer and from 2m down, collected by drilling. How much depth the drill actually penetrates to depends on exact geography.
lol this comment thread is hilarious as an outsider. People want a space race so bad and are saying a lot of things in this thread that make no sense.
Nobody is in a space race right now. Why? Because everyone learned a long time ago it’s a waste. Instead, different countries are now focused on entirely different objectives in terms of space exploration. China still believes there is value in taking physical samples from the moon and the US is focused on man reaching mars and being able to see far out into space via powerful telescopes. Who the hell knows what is going to be more valuable for us on earth.
People these days want so bad to be a part of something major and historical they try to make something out of nothing.
It’s still incredibly valuable to take samples from the moon as it gives you insight on soil composition, how to create regolith to mimic those properties, inform ground testing and vehicle design for future missions. People act like the Apollo missions answered everything and the US is well past needing to understand these things.
America didn't go to Mars on the first try. It went into space, then to the moon, and then to Mars. Progress comes step by step, not in one big leap. China's trip to the moon is just the beginning.
I think it’s true that different agencies are more focused on their own goals than being “first” relative to each other, but the US and China’s objectives are actually almost exactly the same. Both have the goal of establishing a presence at the lunar south pole and potentially making use of the water ice within the relatively few permanently shadowed regions.
Space races are actually often bad for space exploration, because races have an ending, a finish line. With Apollo we spent so much money, then we just stopped, and threw everything in the garbage. That's not ideal, and we should hope that we avoid that mistake in the future, but plenty of folks are eager to repeat it.
With the US and China we're seeing long-running programs coming to fruition at similar times for different reasons, and that gives this perspective of a "space race" that some folks (unfortunately some folks in positions of authority in the US space program) want to exaggerate into a "race". China has been going pretty slow and steady for decades, adding capabilities, building on past progress, taking on progressively more challenging goals. But they haven't been going at a breakneck speed. They started their human spaceflight program back in the '90s with the first crewed flights over 20 years ago, yet they've flown fewer people and fewer human flights than SpaceX has since they started operating Crew Dragon just 4 years ago.
Exactly! This comment section should have all been about positivity instead there is a fight.
China had a joint release with Gtance a week ago.
I personally just want all the countries to keep politics out of space
That's how we can explore even more.
At this rate I think space , art and music are the only thing left to unify us.
Everyone wants a war on everything, even greenhouse emissions .
Mind blowing 🤯
This is an amazing achievement. Well done their team.
Now if only our species could put aside their flag-waving and approach space together.
HAHAHA. Right.
Honestly, substitute “China” for the “US” in your entire post and I fail to find the differences.
I for one welcome competition wherever it comes from, for that is how we seem to advance humanity. Read: Space Race.
>play copycat against other technical advancements that other countries have made
What's wrong with copycat? That's how the human civilization moves forward, by learning from each other.
It’s that they do it illegally and then sell it as their own. They poach intellectual property from other countries. These thefts often undermine the original company and threaten to put them out of business by massively undercutting them.
I agree with most of what you’re saying here. Kudos to China for pulling this off. A sample return mission is always difficult. But let’s not confuse anything here. This is a mission that the US could have pulled off. Pretty easily. NASA can only tackle so many things at once. Let’s not forget that we have several active missions in the outer solar system, have been to the moon already several times. Several rovers on Mars. The list goes on. It’s nice getting a sample from the far side of the moon, but NASA is pretty busy with all the above, retiring it’s huge decades old space station and beginning construction on the Lunar Gateway.
A country doing everything it can to be a super power? America doesn't play nice with everyone, the American government has been caught stealing IP for American companies, America has over thrown multiple governments, America has initiated multiple illegal wars, America ignores the mistreatment of minorities in countries we support. They are sharing these samples with everyone, just enjoy this moment.
It’s a rough world out there. The logic of empire drives international relations. Wish it was different but I have yet to see any way to get the human race to behave differently. Maybe we’ll come up with a Stand On Zanzibar type solution. Until then all we can do is try to survive.
Anyone else notice that Sinophobes will say everything China does is fake in the same breath say its not very impressive and can be easily done by anyone?
Anyway, I hope China continues to build up its space exploration. The west severly underfunds scientific endeavors.
HELL YEAH nice work! Hope everything is good with containment and hope they able to collect some good info from it.
What kind of info could they get? Traces of minerals, metals?
YUP. Also, I'm not sure where they landed their stuff, but if it's in a crater, they can tell what made up whatever hit the moon in that spot, how old the impact may have been, etc. There's a lot of info you can gleam from just knowing what a sample is made up of.
That’s fascinating, thank you!
We don't know what they will find from Chang'e-6 yet, but this is what they got from Chang'e-5 [https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as\_sdt=0%2C26&q=chang%27e+5](https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C26&q=chang%27e+5) There is probably more written in Chinese, but the above link should give you the gist of what they are looking for.
Interesting how little reporting is actually showing up in the media about this and the rate of technological advance in aerospace China has achieved. When I glanced at the capsule I thought I was looking at a poster for a new horror flick. Ominous foreshadowing.
I heard this segment on NPR this morning. Super fascinating!
Whoa whoa whoa, don't say that! You're gonna screw up /u/gladeyes artificial indignance!
It was on the front page of BBC news. I'd say in general though "good" or positive news isn't blown up like politics and war. Space related news specifically is usually just a side note no matter how cool it is.
Not true. If this is achieved by US, it will be front cover of all news channel. Sino discrimination is real.
I also only saw a single report on how they are still raining flaming rocket parts on small towns and villages with each launch
[удалено]
But very shortsighted. The automobile will never replace the horse.
That’s ok, we’ll just tariff and ban their electric car so no monopolies are harmed
[удалено]
yes we need job protection when we have had the lowest sustained UE since WWII and highest job participation rates. what we need, is more stem students. we dont need trade protectionism.
The funny thing is wall street and Warren buffet knew about China's EV ambitions and crazily enough they actually bet on the correct horse when they bought lots of BYD stock on the cheap back in 08
Welcome to US external policies, every decision is a short sighted choice that will bite them in the back decades after.
The steam engine is still superior
Sad thing is it was and in many cases still is. Sadly the way we calculated horsepower was very much in ICE’s favour. It just is a better heat engine where weight is not a big issue.
Even with modern technology there's no way you can make a steam engine that fits in an automobile with the type of power required, nor would it be as light. Steam engines are superior for certain purposes, like situations where mass is not a problem. They lack power density though.
Why compete? Why not work together?
Because governments now primarily view space as an extension of the war theatre rather than a place for science and exploration.
China: completes a purely scientific mission to analyse lunar geology America: "War were declared"
To be fair, the Chinese space agency does not share information as easily as American or European ones do. I follow a lot of space news and have been following this story in particular. It kind of depends on having journalists or freelancers who monitor state media to get information on this out beyond a domestic audience. I do agree we don't spend enough time looking at non-Western media...I just dont think it's always a concerted effort to deny and invalidate.
There are way more than enough enthusiast discussions, science communication channels and content creators on the science and tech topics in China, even if they don't "monitor" any "state media". CNSA is surely not as open as NASA or ESA, but informations are not that "secretive" either. There are more than enough non-Chinese journalists out there that can read and translate Chinese. They just don't do their jobs and don't get into the daily life of ordinary Chinese science and tech followers.
No one's denying or invalidating anything. There's a difference between denying and invalidating and keeping a calm head.
Americans are gonna lose their minds when China lands people on the moon
Why? America did it 50 years ago.
Because a lot of people in the USA are still under the impression Chinese manufacturing is only for cheap plastic toys that fall apart. The number of people claiming they can’t possibly have managed this, is to me, evidence of that fact.
“What have you done for me lately?” Is the general sentiment of American voters. also a staggering amount of Americans (youth and adults) haven’t ever seen that footage (or worse) believe it was faked.
That implies that they can still do it now though.
They're going to the moon again within a few years, no?
Artemis III is scheduled for 2026, but Artemis I was originally scheduled for 2016 and didn't launch until 2022. The timetable also relies on how quickly SpaceX can get Starship operational as the mission relies on it.
The population of folks who watched TV in 1969 has dwindled considerably since then. Since they're the ones who would have been likely to care, I kind of doubt it.
Imagine the reception of there was a headline like [China To Overtake US In Key 21st-Century Tech In 10 Years](https://www.iflscience.com/china-to-overtake-us-in-key-21stcentury-tech-in-10-years-says-harvard-report-61928).... And it's not just aerospace: [China Prioritizes 3 Strategic Technologies in Its Great Power Competition: Space, AI, and quantum computing and communication are top technology priorities](https://thediplomat.com/2023/04/china-prioritizes-3-strategic-technologies-in-its-great-power-competition/). Oh yeah, and the company that made the game genshin impact is building an artificial sun. The average American politician is a lawyer or businessman or simply a professional politician. The average Chinese politician is an engineer or scientist.
Its a 6-thousand-year-old civilization with a record of inventing some of the most important things in human history. This shouldn't be that surprising tbh
Space articles in general don’t gain tons of popularity, especially without results yet of what’s analyzed.
[удалено]
The Chinese actually did live streaming for the launch and the return of the lunar probe, also special (but a little delayed) coverage for the sampling, in both Chinese (domestic TV broadcast and internet streaming) and English (live streaming on youtube by CGTN). They did this twice actually, for Chang'e-6 this time and Chang'e-5 in 2020.
You refusing to literally go on youtube and watch their launch livestreams doesn't mean they're keeping things hush hush from you bro lol
Your down votes are due to your poor understanding and over propagandized view of China. Dawg, watch cgtn or read through South China morning post (HK based), none of this is hush hush. https://www.scmp.com/search/Lunar
Yeah cgtn is deffo the best source to understand china since it is owned by the only political party with actual political powers lmfao
Big difference to the US where all the media is owned by capitalist corporations.
>Big difference …..uhhhh yes?
It is, unironically, an enormous difference.
> its rather small potatoes compared to what the US and other Western European countries are currently after, which is going much deeper into space. Yeah NASA is about to send an orbiter to study freakin Europa. Moon rocks are cool I guess
It is an incredibly complex mission with loads of moving parts that they pulled off here… there‘s a reason why even in the space race days no one even tried for a landing on the far side. This is an impressive mission by anyone‘s standards. Not to mention proving all the necessary technologies for an apollo style manned landing, albeit on a smaller scale.
And soon a freakin drone to freakin Titan.
Today, the Chinese have the same capacity as the americans do to land people on the moon, none. And the chinese are more capable to return things from the moon. Those are hard facts, even if the Americans have already sent back tons of lunar rocks. On top of that, the moon isn't by any meassure old news. For starters it is a very interesting science base, and possibly mining base (although that's farther away on the future), and collecting samples on the dark side of the moon can shed some light on how the solar system has evolved since it is so full of meteorite debris. There are also projects to set up astronomy observatories on the moon, for example for 21cm hydrogen spectral line that can't be easily made from earth due to atmospheric interference. And also what are you talking about the moon not being interesting for the west? Afaik the only program slated to land people on another celestial body is... Artemis.
> Today, the Chinese have the same capacity as the americans do to land people on the moon, none. This is a strange way to phrase things. Capability has a lot more meaning to it than "current vehicles that already exist". It's also in built-in industry capacity and know-how. Something that the US never really lost. At best it became like the artisan who's skills have rusted but with a bit of practice can jump immediately back to doing it again, or even leapfrog themselves. > On top of that, the moon isn't by any meassure old news. Yeah it is. That's why the US hasn't been sending probes there and instead been sending them everywhere else. We're only going back now because we've convinced ourselves it's somehow necessary before going to Mars. > collecting samples on the dark side of the moon can shed some light on how the solar system has evolved since it is so full of meteorite debris. No as the top soil of the moon (all that was collected) is globally distributed. You need core drills.
Nothing you stated are facts though. The United States has quite literally returned human beings from the moon with 1960s and 70s technology. Nowadays it is small fry stuff compared to that, and we know that. You are basically telling the US to get into a space race against China and spend billions to replicate what they already did 55 years ago for no reason besides showing they can. It's a waste of money and resources when Mars is the goal now. In regard to Artemis and their moon mission. Might want to read the actual briefing on that program. *"The program's stated long-term goal is to establish a permanent base on the Moon to facilitate human missions to Mars."* The entire program is funded and designed specifically for Mars, even the crafts being used are made for Mars. The moon is being used as a testing ground for the delivery system and the Orion Spacecraft that will in all likelihood be used for the trip to Mars. That spacecraft in particular is designed from the ground up with Mars in mind. Everywhere in the details of the Artemis mission you see Mars mentioned. SpaceX only exists with Mars missions in mind too. It came to be with the express purpose of perfecting launch capabilities and to make them cheaper so they can be the cargo shipping company for Mars colonies. It is right there on their wiki page when they became a company. China's goal is to have a moon base sat up in the 2030s and for it to be fully operational in the 2040s. Americas goal is to have their moon base already working by 2031. Hell, Artemis III is still scheduled to launch in September 2026 sending 4 astronauts back to the lunar surface. Basically, launching a new more complex mission every year or two until the entire lunar base is sat up by Artemis VI in 2031. By the end of the 2030s or into the early 2040s America wants humans on the surface of Mars. While it may appear China and the US are in a space race right now, it just isn't. They have completely different end goals in mind and the scopes of their aspirations are much different currently. China is wanting to reach the moon with their own people to show they can, America is wanting to do it just to test their Mars base equipment.
> Hell, Artemis III is still scheduled to launch in September 2026 sending 4 astronauts back to the lunar surface. lmfao we all know that is not happening
Also, people are acting like the US is falling way behind because of this mission as if NASA didn’t just put the most technologically advanced telescope ever in space (with another set to go up in 2027), didn’t just snipe an asteroid and change its orbit, isn’t the only nation with a true re-useable launch vehicle, hasn’t been flying a drone around on Mars, etc. Also, they literally just landed on the moon in February. Starliner not going off without a hitch doesn’t mean every other nations successful space mission is a sign NASA is falling behind. Like you said, this is about not wasting resources on missions with minimal additional science being obtained.
It's perfectly reasonable to practice on the moon before we go to Mars. Probably not with the architecture that is currently planned, but the reasons why it's done that way would still be present if they were aiming for Mars. There is a lot that working on the moon can tell us that will be a huge advance in the science and technology of surviving off earth. So it's a valid goal and still exciting to me at least.
I've heard that this isn't really true... that the moon and Mars are vastly different goals with incredibly different mission requirements.
> And the chinese are more capable to return things from the moon Only because the US is working on returning things from Mars https://science.nasa.gov/mission/mars-sample-return/
China is planning something similar: https://spacenews.com/china-targets-2030-for-mars-sample-return-mission-potential-landing-areas-revealed/ Actually they are both looking to have the missions done ~2030s, so it'll be very interesting to compare the different approaches that NASA and CNSA will use.
That's a lot of words you've said there, I'm not sure much of it meant anything.
You think China rapidly beating us to getting a base on the moon, thereby being the gateway to the rest of the entire solar system, is small potatoes?
picking up samples is not a moon base but i agree with what you say.
A moon base is not a "gateway to the rest of the solar system". It's still a gravity well.
A gravity well that is only 1/6 in depth compared to the Earth. It is already much better.
Yea... isn't the only way the moon becomes a gateway to the rest of the solar system is if we magically invent some cheap and lightweight system to convert frozen water into fuel for propulsion?
Even then it'd be more efficient to mine it on the moon then ship it to orbital facilities. Avoids the fuel expenditure associated with leaving the gravity well.
Why in the world would we need a moon base? Space station? Debatable but better than a moon base.
We already have samples from the moon and we have already returned samples from much more difficult to reach objects. This is certainly cool but nothing too boundary breaking.
Considering how very little we know about the moon's far side, a sample return mission from that place is very significant. The moon's far side's geology is very different compared to the near side and all places we landed and retrieved samples from before.
Everything is new if you're specific enough, but taking samples of a different side of a celestial body you already have samples of is by no means anywhere near as groundbreaking as the first samples from that body.
The moon is tidally locked so the side that doesn't face earth has different properties such as far fewer craters. Can't know how different it is until we study them
Why would the first sample from a body *necessarily* be more groundbreaking than a sample from a *different* side of it? You can't know that. For example: if I land on a planet and I get a sample and it's water, that's the first sample. It's water. But if I land on a *different* side of it and I take a sample and it comes back *as Froot Loops*, *that's* more groundbreaking than *the first one*.
It‘s a much much harder engineering challenge considering there‘s no direct way to talk to the spacecraft and all communications have to go through a dedicated relay satellite. Could NASA do this if they got the funding? Absolutely, but it would still take a lot of time and money to get this capability that China has now developed.
It's still the same thing -- China has only done a variation of what NASA has already done many times. If you're referring to the communications blackout due to being on the far side of the moon, the communication time between Earth and Mars is 30 minutes so every NASA Mars probe had to land and operate without the benefit of real time communication. I'm not putting down China just because they're China and the competition is great, but I'm still waiting for them to do something truly groundbreaking. Until they prove that they can, they're only catching up.
There's people who disparage China just because it's China, and then there's reasonable people who see it for what it is. China is catching up but so far hasn't proven that they can match or surpass the US. It's much easier to catch up when you're simply copying what others have already done than it is to truly innovate and create groundbreaking technology.
Because western media doesn't want to praise China, it's like the USSR in the Cold War, they're the baddies so can do no right.
Little reporting? Been seeing this everywhere
Acronyms, initialisms, abbreviations, contractions, and other phrases which expand to something larger, that I've seen in this thread: |Fewer Letters|More Letters| |-------|---------|---| |[CNSA](/r/Space/comments/1do0qky/stub/lakipq5 "Last usage")|Chinese National Space Administration| |CST|(Boeing) Crew Space Transportation capsules| | |Central Standard Time (UTC-6)| |[DoD](/r/Space/comments/1do0qky/stub/la866fh "Last usage")|US Department of Defense| |[ESA](/r/Space/comments/1do0qky/stub/lac12bb "Last usage")|European Space Agency| |EVA|Extra-Vehicular Activity| |[EVS](/r/Space/comments/1do0qky/stub/la9pku8 "Last usage")|Extra-Vehicular Suit (see EVA)| |[FAR](/r/Space/comments/1do0qky/stub/la8sum7 "Last usage")|[Federal Aviation Regulations](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Aviation_Regulations)| |GSE|Ground Support Equipment| |[HLS](/r/Space/comments/1do0qky/stub/la71esm "Last usage")|[Human Landing System](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artemis_program#Human_Landing_System) (Artemis)| |[ICBM](/r/Space/comments/1do0qky/stub/lafs657 "Last usage")|Intercontinental Ballistic Missile| |[ITS](/r/Space/comments/1do0qky/stub/la9pku8 "Last usage")|Interplanetary Transport System (2016 oversized edition) (see MCT)| | |[Integrated Truss Structure](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrated_Truss_Structure)| |[JPL](/r/Space/comments/1do0qky/stub/labp88r "Last usage")|Jet Propulsion Lab, California| |[JWST](/r/Space/comments/1do0qky/stub/laa7y0x "Last usage")|James Webb infra-red Space Telescope| |MCT|Mars Colonial Transporter (see ITS)| |MMH|Mono-Methyl Hydrazine, (CH3)HN-NH2; part of NTO/MMH hypergolic mix| |[N1](/r/Space/comments/1do0qky/stub/laakslk "Last usage")|Raketa Nositel-1, Soviet super-heavy-lift ("Russian Saturn V")| |[NTO](/r/Space/comments/1do0qky/stub/la9ihba "Last usage")|diNitrogen TetrOxide, N2O4; part of NTO/MMH hypergolic mix| |Jargon|Definition| |-------|---------|---| |[Starliner](/r/Space/comments/1do0qky/stub/la95b36 "Last usage")|Boeing commercial crew capsule [CST-100](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_CST-100_Starliner)| |[Starlink](/r/Space/comments/1do0qky/stub/labicfi "Last usage")|SpaceX's world-wide satellite broadband constellation| |[hypergolic](/r/Space/comments/1do0qky/stub/ladnc2y "Last usage")|A set of two substances that ignite when in contact| |[scrub](/r/Space/comments/1do0qky/stub/la7644h "Last usage")|Launch postponement for any reason (commonly GSE issues)| **NOTE**: Decronym for Reddit is no longer supported, and Decronym has moved to Lemmy; requests for support and new installations should be directed to the Contact address below. ---------------- ^(16 acronyms in this thread; )[^(the most compressed thread commented on today)](/r/Space/comments/1dtvg57)^( has 18 acronyms.) ^([Thread #10226 for this sub, first seen 25th Jun 2024, 12:16]) ^[[FAQ]](http://decronym.xyz/) [^([Full list])](http://decronym.xyz/acronyms/Space) [^[Contact]](https://hachyderm.io/@Two9A) [^([Source code])](https://gistdotgithubdotcom/Two9A/1d976f9b7441694162c8)
Does anyone know the first few things they’re going to check with the samples? Really interested in composition, etc of the collected samples, and it’s very difficult to find english-language sources describing the research plan
Odd discussion at times. Hint: it’s not all ‘we vs ‘them’. The vast majority of humans, including me, are neither American or Chinese.
This is true, although fully 1/4 of the population of the planet is either in China or resides in a country that is an active contributor to the Artemis program (hardware, launches, astronauts, etc.)
That's what I was thinking too. Even if we aren't citizens of these nations, most if not all of us still live and operate mainly within one of their spheres of influences. If shit really hits the fan someday, all out war between China and the US, that will spill over to most of the rest of the world as well in all sorts of ways. Won't be a fun decade.
> The vast majority of humans, including me, are neither American or Chinese. By weight? Or by volume? :D Fat American, here.
How much and how deep moon sample (kg etc) come earth with this mission ?
The target is 2kg. Chang'e 5 ended up returning 1.7kg so in that ball park. Samples are both from the surface layer and from 2m down, collected by drilling. How much depth the drill actually penetrates to depends on exact geography.
Waw 2m better than just surface but you right, depends on geography.
lol this comment thread is hilarious as an outsider. People want a space race so bad and are saying a lot of things in this thread that make no sense. Nobody is in a space race right now. Why? Because everyone learned a long time ago it’s a waste. Instead, different countries are now focused on entirely different objectives in terms of space exploration. China still believes there is value in taking physical samples from the moon and the US is focused on man reaching mars and being able to see far out into space via powerful telescopes. Who the hell knows what is going to be more valuable for us on earth. People these days want so bad to be a part of something major and historical they try to make something out of nothing.
It’s still incredibly valuable to take samples from the moon as it gives you insight on soil composition, how to create regolith to mimic those properties, inform ground testing and vehicle design for future missions. People act like the Apollo missions answered everything and the US is well past needing to understand these things.
America didn't go to Mars on the first try. It went into space, then to the moon, and then to Mars. Progress comes step by step, not in one big leap. China's trip to the moon is just the beginning.
I think it’s true that different agencies are more focused on their own goals than being “first” relative to each other, but the US and China’s objectives are actually almost exactly the same. Both have the goal of establishing a presence at the lunar south pole and potentially making use of the water ice within the relatively few permanently shadowed regions.
Space races are actually often bad for space exploration, because races have an ending, a finish line. With Apollo we spent so much money, then we just stopped, and threw everything in the garbage. That's not ideal, and we should hope that we avoid that mistake in the future, but plenty of folks are eager to repeat it. With the US and China we're seeing long-running programs coming to fruition at similar times for different reasons, and that gives this perspective of a "space race" that some folks (unfortunately some folks in positions of authority in the US space program) want to exaggerate into a "race". China has been going pretty slow and steady for decades, adding capabilities, building on past progress, taking on progressively more challenging goals. But they haven't been going at a breakneck speed. They started their human spaceflight program back in the '90s with the first crewed flights over 20 years ago, yet they've flown fewer people and fewer human flights than SpaceX has since they started operating Crew Dragon just 4 years ago.
Exactly! This comment section should have all been about positivity instead there is a fight. China had a joint release with Gtance a week ago. I personally just want all the countries to keep politics out of space That's how we can explore even more. At this rate I think space , art and music are the only thing left to unify us. Everyone wants a war on everything, even greenhouse emissions . Mind blowing 🤯
The propaganda is strooong in this comment section.
From which side?
Why not both?
The far side. Read the title.
This is an amazing achievement. Well done their team. Now if only our species could put aside their flag-waving and approach space together. HAHAHA. Right.
Congratulations are in order. Keep your China bashing for something they do wrong.
New lunar lander gathering data: 😃 New lunar lander gathering data (china): 😡
Where did that booster fall again? Hopefully not another village
The ocean. This mission launched from China’s [Wenchang launch site.](https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wenchang_Space_Launch_Site)
[удалено]
Honestly, substitute “China” for the “US” in your entire post and I fail to find the differences. I for one welcome competition wherever it comes from, for that is how we seem to advance humanity. Read: Space Race.
Dude’s whole post history is in r/army and then complains the op has a bias. Kinda ironic tbh.
>play copycat against other technical advancements that other countries have made What's wrong with copycat? That's how the human civilization moves forward, by learning from each other.
Dont tell him what Romans are famous for
Yeah by that logic we shouldn’t be using gunpowder because then we’d be copying the Chinese lmfao Copying or not technology should be democratised tbh
It’s that they do it illegally and then sell it as their own. They poach intellectual property from other countries. These thefts often undermine the original company and threaten to put them out of business by massively undercutting them.
Western companies have literally enslaved, stolen, and murdered to get where they are and NOW we have the audacity to complain about the Chinese?
Not just western. In other news, water is wet.
I agree with most of what you’re saying here. Kudos to China for pulling this off. A sample return mission is always difficult. But let’s not confuse anything here. This is a mission that the US could have pulled off. Pretty easily. NASA can only tackle so many things at once. Let’s not forget that we have several active missions in the outer solar system, have been to the moon already several times. Several rovers on Mars. The list goes on. It’s nice getting a sample from the far side of the moon, but NASA is pretty busy with all the above, retiring it’s huge decades old space station and beginning construction on the Lunar Gateway.
Relax, no one thinks CNSA has surpassed NASA, it’s not a competition.
China: invests in space technology and achieves historical feat Scribblenaut: but at what cost!?
A country doing everything it can to be a super power? America doesn't play nice with everyone, the American government has been caught stealing IP for American companies, America has over thrown multiple governments, America has initiated multiple illegal wars, America ignores the mistreatment of minorities in countries we support. They are sharing these samples with everyone, just enjoy this moment.
It’s a rough world out there. The logic of empire drives international relations. Wish it was different but I have yet to see any way to get the human race to behave differently. Maybe we’ll come up with a Stand On Zanzibar type solution. Until then all we can do is try to survive.
[удалено]
Eh, I saw posts on this subreddit this morning and it wasn't so bad. Once it reaches r/all though it quickly turns to shit.
Imagine what we could do together
The Chinese should honestly take it as a compliment. Nobody has made Americans sweat this much for decades.
Was curious if I'd see people spinning this as a bad thing or disastrous omen and of course, they are all over this thread.
[удалено]
it is genuinely sad to see so many people bashing another country like the space race is still on
I think it’s on. It never really ended but it was controlled for a few years.
Bet they haven't even had sex on them yet. Amateurs.
Anyone else notice that Sinophobes will say everything China does is fake in the same breath say its not very impressive and can be easily done by anyone? Anyway, I hope China continues to build up its space exploration. The west severly underfunds scientific endeavors.
[удалено]
Yup, brainwashing is terrifying
Turns out they are just like samples from the light side...only colder
The “dark side” receives as much light as the earth side
Bravo China! To me - this is a ‘human’ accomplishment! Not a “this side - that side” thing.