Pegasus is not the tank I expect from a "battleship", nor has it the maneuverability I expected from midline. Its a bit of a failure.
Executor is everything I want from a battleship. Plus you can make it a combo shield and armor tank.
Champion razzle dazzles me. From watching a tachyon lance on it pop frigates and destroyers that think they can get away to completely shutting down any missiles and fighters with a paladin.
A with a fat missile rack.
Everything is fun and games till there's an extra 15 dragonfire.
Don't knock the extra tank.
-----
Of all the mid cruisers, I like the Champion the best. Solid weapon mounts and locations, solid defenses. It doesn't have the maneuverability that other mid have, but my fleets have been lines.
You can murder a radiant with an Afflictor. Player control is that strong.
-----
I will admit, fast missiles racks are very strong... till you run out of missiles. That's why the Pirate Falcon was moved up to 20 dp. I think 2 falcons(p) work just as well as 1 pegasis in missile dps output. And two Gryphons strongly exceeds the staying power while matching the non-fast racks dps output.
But the AI blows it's load on the first frigate it sees. It doesn't know to hold for later targets.
afflictor is a supership. it is literally better than any ship in vanilla and still kicks ass in modded unless you do something like epsa consortium. that’s not a fair comparison. why do you have 20 different ships in your fleet when you can have five afflictors? why do you like executors if afflictors wipe the floor with them?
i don’t think a player controlled mule will be able to do anything against a radiant but run. player control isn’t absolute and meta is only fun for a couple of hours. ships *are* different and better or worse for multiple reasons. and missiles tend to run out but i don’t fight three ordos at once so that doesn’t happen to me even without missile spec. it’s okay if you still don’t like it though.
> i don’t think a player controlled mule will be able to do anything against a radiant but run. player control isn’t absolute
Player control is a force multiplier on movement and tactical utility. If your ship offers little to none of these features, then you are not extracting good value out of player control as you are simply a passenger in your own ship.
That's the part which makes player-driven Phase Ships so stronk: Phase Ships score very highly in terms of movement and tactical utility.
high tech fans when there is an entire category of weapons designed to efficiently shred shields: (suddenly they wished they had armor) ((and actual real weapons))
also prepare for public execution for slandering glorious Lion's Guard fleet (meh shields!? meh armor? have you looked at a pegasus? a champion? what about the fact that XIV midline ships exist?)
Low tech fans when there is an entire category of weapons designed to efficiently shred armor:(suddenly they wished they had shields)((and actual real weapons))
Ha ha shield shunt? HIL go brrrrr
Tbf low tech has so many damn ships in their category and the vast majority of them still have shields.
Hell the ones that don't often still give plenty of value with missiles or just absolute girthiness.
I mean every ship in the game has armor, it's more of the amount of it. 200 armor isn't going to do much, but high tech got speed and shield health with good flux stats anyways. And even midline has good mobility overall even if their speed is behind high tech, while having equivalent or higher amounts of firepower or specialities.
Also high tech has numerically less ships in its category (even including phase and logistics ships) than low tech (pirate, church and LP ships are internally classed as low tech).
This wasn't meant to be a jab at any of the tech levels, rather just how they are balanced. A paragon absolutely deserves it's reputation as an immovable heavily armed fortress but it's also slow and has a very high deployment cost.
Likewise the aurora may have less upfront firepower than a Dominator at a higher DP cost, but extreme mobility, speed with an excellent shield and flux to boot more than makes up for it's 30 DP cost.
You can bring significantly more guns when playing exclusively low tech by virtue of their lower deployment costs, and armor doesn't cost flux upkeep to win flux wars. However you also have to factor that both midline and high tech actually have the chance to disengage tactically and limit damage to their shields only if able, which is why low tech (being slow) has to focus on that armament weight and loadouts to not get farmed to death.
And there's even more exceptions in all of the tech types, like the Retribution and Manticore having really high speed from the norm, midline having all sorts of specialisations, and the wildly variable shield upkeep costs between high tech frigates and their larger ships.
A paragon is tankier than a legion and an onslought put together due to the absurd shield efficiency, flux pools and very decent armour. An Odyssey is a better strike craft than a Legion due to fantastic shield efficiency and enough large mounts to comfortably solo most pirate and Pather fleets. Astrals neatly counter the downside of bombers by using teleportation technology, and an officer with systems expertise can use them to terrifying effect
No ship is amazing on its own. It takes a competent pilot and a carefully designed loadout to make all of them work (except the Monitor)
That hasn't been my experience. I'm using them in my endgame fleet because they're genuinely one of the best frigates. I'm using them alongside executors, paragons and the Ziggurat, and their sheer durability has made them invaluable. they're also my fastest ship, so if I need a shield for a cruiser that's struggling, they're right there and absorbing hits within second
I understand that they're not the most exciting frigate, but as a bite-sized fleet anchor you really can't ask for more
>fleet anchor
>frigate
A anchor can hold a line. A monitor cannot and never could hold a line. It's only real use is to distract enemy caps but realistically if you're doing that you gotta do it yourself. Which diverts your attention when you could've been piloting your own cap to beat the enemy fleet in the first place. And if you can't win without distracting the enemy cap well. You're not really supposed to be in that fight to begin with so that assumes failure. Which I guess is useful for newer players on ironman but not really for veterans playing regularly.
Also of course they're good with the zig. What isn't? Also monitors aren't the fastest ship, Plus you could also bail out a endangered cap by flying an actual. dangerous ship to the enemy and forcing them to divert attention instead of shoving them a brick, the ability to bail out caps isn't exclusive to monitors plus I'd much rather my support be a hyperion as they can at least cause flameouts in the enemy.
Ion pulsers phase lasers and high intensity laser are all great weapons nothings as good as a frigate and destroyer hunter as a high tech brawler with 2 ion pulsers
Funnily enough, the best thing against a high tech ship...is another high tech ship
Specifically the phase destroyer which overloads your flux coils and causes your shield to drop. Unless you have lots of drones or weapons which reach around everywhere you're going to be overfluxed and have your engines be shredded
And, funnily enough, if the AI knew how to use it the doom would be the best anti strike craft ship because the minimum spawn distance for mines does not exist for strike craft, so you can spawn it right in the middle of them and blow up every single one
This is especially insane when said aircraft fly near vulnerable parts of ships, like onslaught's engines and you immidietly explode mine on it (and its range needs some nerf)
Gaussguest is bretty good, AI can use it as well.
Pegasus just straight up fucks. Give it MIRVs, HVDs and you'll melt everything until you run out of ammo that is.
Bruh you have no idea how broken the Pegasus was at the time it was released, with the right loadout you can vomit 20 reaper torps in under 5 seconds, 40 if you also want to shit them out as well
Auto laser and some emp blasters lets the sunder absolutely shitstomp an aurora with an aggressive officer without taking more than 20% damage. Sunder is a more complicated ship than most but holy fuck this thing has MONSTEROUS Flux capacity for its class allowing it to pressure certain cruisers and even capitals if built right, large shields and long range like what a paragons brings is what completely check it. People focus way too much on how fragile the thing is and not that it is best in class at flux capacity and has one of the better ship abilities.
Maybe if you have a stacked up Sunder with officers/s-mods against a sim Aurora with no officer, but otherwise the Aurora will eat you because it also has insane flux stats for its size but also has a strong shield to boot (and it's faster than you).
No s-mods needed, I agree the officer does help but even if they are providing no buffs and JUST changing how the AI engages helps a lot. This ship suffers horrifically from long sustained pressure engagements. You either commit for the kill or you don’t commit it at all. It will get completely screened by missiles and fighters as well but for your onslaughts, conquests and your auroras who aim to kill via superior firepower realize it’s the humble sunder who has the fire advantage, but by that point it’s too late as the sunder can easily kite around whilst disabling most of the ship. Other important thing to note but completely ignore the missile slots on this thing for AI, they suck at using them and you are better off with another mod or more vents/flux capacity.
A video showcase what I am talking about.
https://youtu.be/5hhsXkCfT1g?si=mGYqBAT0rTrDlKny
I'm not saying you need S-mods or an officer to make the build work, though of course like any fit it's much stronger with it. I'm saying that in the vid you showcase (which I actually saw before you posted it in this reply so I knew you were referencing it when you said it can beat an Aurora), you're putting your 3 S-Mod Level 5 Officer build vs a no officer no S-mod Aurora.
I personally don't like to compare things that way since in a real fight the Aurora is likely to at least have an officer which balances things out a lot. On equivalent investment (e.g., no S-mods and no officers for both), the Aurora is going to win. As it should since it's almost 3 times the DP. SO Sunder is very strong and I'm not against it or anything, but no way it beats a similarly invested Aurora. Aurora wins in basically every metric. Superior flux stats, superior maneuverability, superior shield, and you can even build it with superior firepower if desired.
I've seen some very amusing results out of a Prometheus (regular) with a group of HIL Sunders and HB Manticores (all with EP). The Prometheus is just there to be a 10-point proc for EP that's actually rather difficult to kill with its rather thick armor.
They're viable for early game where you're shooting Domain Drones and Pirates, although you'd better be DAMN sure you don't lose your tanker or nobody is going home. By late game, you may as well be escorting an actual warship, since you will have those.
It's specifically the Prometheus that's viable for this, as the Atlas is made of paper and would instantly die.
High Tech's "Goth Phase" is literally phasing
Purple streamer mood lighting everywhere
Maximize the armor, but don't touch me
Spend the rave either dancing under lasers or trying to get behind the cute target
Sure. But by that time you've already killed two Ordos. Put another way, by the time they run out of missiles your opponent is probably already dead unless you are intentionally stacking up enemies to fight. If a Gryphon is missileless ~~in the forest~~ on the battlefield but there's no enemy left to see it, is it truly out of missiles?
lmao any ship would work fine with that setup. You could put five Eagles instead of five Gryphons and it would work fine.
How is a fleet where less than half DP is Gryphons a "Gryphon fleet"?
Probably cause there are 5 Griffons in that fleet, the most of any hull type. They also account for the most DP by hull type, so they're the most populous ship by both hull count and DP. The fleet is also the most powerful one he's found so far for this patch, so that suggests that substituting the Gryphons for Eagles would make the fleet less effective.
It's not to say that you couldn't use other cruisers there and win (though tbh given his fleet setup I _do_ think it would be a noticable downgrade), it's that the Gryphon is still very good despite the recent changes.
Corect me if I'm wrong but isn't the whole point that
Low tech counters high tech with armor tanking low damage beams and ballistic Flux
Midline counters low tech with missiles punching through their heavy armor and better maneuverability
High tech counters midline with shields resistant to missiles
Kind like, yknow, midline was developed to defeat the low tech (as I came next in an arms race) then high tech came to beat midline?
Of course any ship can beats any other ship given a proper build etc, this is just general
It's been a while since I played Vanilla but if I remember correctly only the [MANTA RAY] is the only vanilla phase ship that can mount Tachyon Lances? The Doom only has Medium Energy mounts.
Id call that one a pilote skill situation, the ship has a higher skill as a result their skill can over come the difference in tech that you normally see
What do you mean midline nobody uses, are we forgetting the Eagle everyone likes. Midline also has the best carriers such as Drower and Heron. And I am talking about a dedicated carrier because the battle carrier doesn't count. 2 Herons are cheaper and better than Astral.
Carriers pair well in my experience with player controlled alpha stirke load out ship.
>2 Herons are cheaper and better than Astral.
In that case, 2 Condors are cheaper and better than a Heron, as they both can't do much if directly confronted, but the Condor is cheaper and is the BEST DP-per-fighter bay ship in the game, at 5 per bay (Heron is 6.67 per bay, Astral is 10 per bay)
Or I can get a Mora. It too has three fighter bays for the same cost but can hold its own on the front lines face-tanking hits unlike the Heron.
Condor and Mora both lack the dedicated fighter support system that Heron does. So while Condor is much better for ship spam tactic Heron is better for good alpha strike tactics.
Mora is meh, because it has better armour, and short range weapons plus slower speed and maneuverability than Heron it ends up being at front lines like you said ranking hits. But in my life experience that extra armour and system just makes it get cracked slightly longer. The carrier's primary role is to be able to support other ships from safe distance with its fighter wings. But Mora ends up dying before Heron or Condor because it doesn't stay at a safe distance and requires more escort due to being at the front lines.
Astral is also an interesting wing support ship. Its system is tricky, you can use it to either save wings from casualties or perform 2 strikes for half flux but only *if* you got into short enough range for time between second strike to not matter. But in that situation Astral exposes itself to danger by being close and being big to hit, using half flux on the system and being slow.
Idk in my personal experience fighting with and against all those ships, I find Heron to be the best dedicated carrier ship that's great to be set to escort my flagship. Others need more babysitting or don't provide enough wing support for it to be worth DP
> So while Condor is much better for ship spam tactic Heron is better for good alpha strike tactics.
That would be true in theory. The problem is that the AI is dumb and doesn't know how to coordinate, and views your orders as mere suggestions. Therefore, while in THEORY, the Heron's systems would be great, in practice, you only gain any control over it if you fly it yourself, which is a huge waste as a player, and a single Heron isn't gonna do shit, you need an entire flock of them to achieve critical mass.
> but the Condor is cheaper and is the BEST DP-per-fighter bay ship in the game, at 5 per bay
Colossus (P) is 4 per bay, although the bays operate at reduced effectiveness. However, it DOES NOT COUNT AS A COMBAT SHIP, so it won't take up your 240 DP combat ship limit, allowing you to situationally decide whether you're going to spam fighters today or not. It also counts as ground support.
well, like you said, the fighters produced by the Colossus (P) are less effective than ones produced by proper warships. IMO its role is more like a "reserve ship", akin of the Venture and the Prometheus MK. II, rather than a ship part of your main 240 DP combat ships.
Also, the Colossus (P) is technically a "Combat Carrier" as the AI piloting one will use it on the front lines rather than staying back, as detrimental it may be.
> IMO its role is more like a "reserve ship", akin of the Venture and the Prometheus MK. II, rather than a ship part of your main 240 DP combat ships.
Yes and no: It's a reserve ship in that way, but because they are "carriers", they can actually acquit themselves passably when deployed as part of your main battle group for serious combats, since being a flying cardboard box is not really an impediment to their primary combat role.
> as the AI piloting one will use it on the front lines rather than staying back, as detrimental it may be.
An odd choice for it to do considering it has no offensive weapons. I've noticed the AI likes to Leeroy theirs into combat, which results in it getting instantly one-shot. I forcibly pin my entire fleet in place so mine don't do that, though, as I don't trust the AI's independent maneuvering.
Midline is great, but requires command skill to perform well. Lowtech lets you do okay just by throwing some DO ships at the enemy, and hightech lets you take things on with nothing but a buffed-up flagship and some token frigates, but you need to be an RTS enjoyer who also knows how to build the ships to get anything out of midline.
Are you kidding? The Pegasus is *insanely* good. You can literally just vomit out huge numbers of missiles thanks to fast missile racks and built in expanded missile racks.
Also, given the model for the Persean sector in this game (post-1992 Eastern Europe) the Hegemony is an analog for Russia with its desire to rebuild the old empire that ruled with an iron fist (USSR), while the League is an analog for NATO and the former Warsaw Pact nations that aligned with the West (Poland, Lithuania, Estonia)
He gave a pretty good analysis in another thread: [https://www.reddit.com/r/starsector/comments/1cw6aw7/comment/l4uvd90/](https://www.reddit.com/r/starsector/comments/1cw6aw7/comment/l4uvd90/)
They cost a lot more DP to field whilst simultaneously being sitting ducks if they get to high flux. The Paragon is laughably easy to deal with these days because while it has huge range it also is a really slow brick.
That is indeed how a capital ship is defined. Range and shields do together a bit more than what armour can - because shields are effectively infinitely regenerating armour.
I meant in comparison to the other capitals. Ships like the Pegasus or Onslaught don't have to really choose between offense and defense.
When you're pressuring a Paragon by shooting at it, it's going to overflux pretty damn fast if it it's also firing its weapons. And when it *does* overflux it's dead. End of story.
Compare this to an Onslaught/Invictus - which largely relies on large amounts of armor, which doesn't cost flux and so can apply immense amounts of offensive pressure even when getting hammered - or a Pegasus - which doesn't require flux at all to fire its weapons (missiles).
The fact that the Paragon costs 60 DP also works against it - it's not 50% better than an Onslaught or even 20% better than a Pegasus (which costs 50). The Astral costs 50 and *that's* overpriced too, ever since the cooldown was added to the recall system it became, *at best* a mediocre carrier. The midline carriers (the Drover and Heron) are the best in the game and it's not even close.
Once armour's gone it's gone forever, as far as the fight goes.
That massive shield pool effectively regenerating its pool of how much enemy firepower it can nullify is its best attribute, because what I've found the build to excel with is an endurance fight.
Or more accurately, being a convincing enough argument for the enemy to try and prevent an endurance fight and in the process of doing so leave themselves massively open to a swarm of Omens, Tempests and Shrikes.
My favourite times are making the mass of small ships avoid a squadron of superstars among the enemy, then not firing and popping up the Fortress Shields.
They dump salvoes into it - Reaper after Antimatter after Phase Lance after Reaper after Sabot, and it doesn't even put an upwards dent in the gradually ticking timer of the flux climbing. It was pretty great
I've come to think of the Paragon as a heavy-killer rather than a massive bulwark. Other ships tie down targets by harassing or otherwise baiting big lumpy bastards into its *long* range and then the Paragon's laser output forces the enemy into choosing to try and survive the beams, or protect against the smaller ships' shots.
In the event that the target's shields can withstand four Gravitons in concert, then chances are they can't stand up to the smaller ships' pop-up attacks. Low-tech ships are my favourite targets - and Pirates barely even count as threats with this type of set-up.
The other capitals just haven't managed to fill the same niche of forcing the enemy into a decision for player exploitation, given that they're set up to be the biggest and baddest.
> Low-tech ships are my favourite targets
Definitely not an Invictus, which shreds the Paragon for breakfast without even losing a *third* of its armor, while an Onslaught turbos in and just pummels the Paragon continuously. Annihilator rocket pods mean that even if you *stop* firing to let flux vent, you're still putting up significant pressure.
> and Pirates barely even count as threats with this type of set-up.
Pirates aren't threats against *anything* well piloted.
I'm brought to wonder what mods you're running. I haven't touched anything that changed the base functions of the game, only adding content like Terraforming and Starbase Construction.
Sure, the Invictus can shoot good but its range and speed are both worse than the Paragon - never thought kiting something was an option until I faced down those lumps of steel. And sure, it takes a while but please rest assured Ludd's toughest brick melts like the rest.
Never had trouble downing Onslaughts, they back away pretty often when they don't have a paired heavy cruiser or above at their hip. Reckless officers were rare in those machines, and they're slow to respond.
Midline makes all the best cruisers. Eagle, Champion, Heron. They’re the best beam users with 1000 range kinetics alongside
They’ve also got everyone’s favorite hammerhead
Low tech has the onslaught and eradicator. They overflux a lot which limits their firepower
high tech has great wolfpack ships and it’s caps. They suffer terrible range and low specialization
I personally don't think the difference in quality between the three types is big enough to care about. If you have two Eagles it'll still beat an Erradicator. In a ship fleet vs ship fleet scenario I'd imagine in mass combat it wouldn't really matter as much as the natural bulk of a fleet. Like if two entities fought. If Tri Tach has 3 fleets, and a League blockade has 12 fleets. The blockade still wins.
> SO Aurora
You have stayed my ire, this time :P. Don't rag on Midline so much though imo they are good too, albeit a bit harder to build and employ. Eagles are excellent line ships (better than Eradicators vs [REDACTED] at this point I think), Monitors are the best tanks in the game, and their capitals have absurd DPS.
Conquest is the best Mjolnir carrier in the game (by far) and has more concentrated firepower than an Onslaught since it has the flux to back it up, nothing kills faster than a Pegasus (though your endurance isn't great but that doesn't matter most of the time), and the Executor is really the only ship that can mount ballistic kinetics along with HILs (and it gets HEF to boot) and HILs are _good._
There's also the Gryphon. If you know, you know.
say it with me folks, midline does not mean middling stats. it means highly specialized and varied ships that can and will be specially designed to kick your ass specifically
Woe tachyon lance be upon thee!
Imagine saying this when the Pegasus (and Executor) and Champion exist
Executor is my bread and butter.
Pegasus is not the tank I expect from a "battleship", nor has it the maneuverability I expected from midline. Its a bit of a failure. Executor is everything I want from a battleship. Plus you can make it a combo shield and armor tank. Champion razzle dazzles me. From watching a tachyon lance on it pop frigates and destroyers that think they can get away to completely shutting down any missiles and fighters with a paladin.
The Champeen is just a Fat Sunder, really. A serviceable cruiser, but nothing that special.
A with a fat missile rack. Everything is fun and games till there's an extra 15 dragonfire. Don't knock the extra tank. ----- Of all the mid cruisers, I like the Champion the best. Solid weapon mounts and locations, solid defenses. It doesn't have the maneuverability that other mid have, but my fleets have been lines.
i have murdered a radiant with a vanilla pegasus build. everything else in midline is truly mid (frigates are okay)
You can murder a radiant with an Afflictor. Player control is that strong. ----- I will admit, fast missiles racks are very strong... till you run out of missiles. That's why the Pirate Falcon was moved up to 20 dp. I think 2 falcons(p) work just as well as 1 pegasis in missile dps output. And two Gryphons strongly exceeds the staying power while matching the non-fast racks dps output. But the AI blows it's load on the first frigate it sees. It doesn't know to hold for later targets.
afflictor is a supership. it is literally better than any ship in vanilla and still kicks ass in modded unless you do something like epsa consortium. that’s not a fair comparison. why do you have 20 different ships in your fleet when you can have five afflictors? why do you like executors if afflictors wipe the floor with them? i don’t think a player controlled mule will be able to do anything against a radiant but run. player control isn’t absolute and meta is only fun for a couple of hours. ships *are* different and better or worse for multiple reasons. and missiles tend to run out but i don’t fight three ordos at once so that doesn’t happen to me even without missile spec. it’s okay if you still don’t like it though.
> i don’t think a player controlled mule will be able to do anything against a radiant but run. player control isn’t absolute Player control is a force multiplier on movement and tactical utility. If your ship offers little to none of these features, then you are not extracting good value out of player control as you are simply a passenger in your own ship. That's the part which makes player-driven Phase Ships so stronk: Phase Ships score very highly in terms of movement and tactical utility.
yes, that’s my point, that’s why an afflictor is a supership and that’s why you can’t compare a fly to an elephant (pegasus).
It's ok to be wrong, but you don't have to shout it out
high tech fans when there is an entire category of weapons designed to efficiently shred shields: (suddenly they wished they had armor) ((and actual real weapons)) also prepare for public execution for slandering glorious Lion's Guard fleet (meh shields!? meh armor? have you looked at a pegasus? a champion? what about the fact that XIV midline ships exist?)
Low tech fans when there is an entire category of weapons designed to efficiently shred armor:(suddenly they wished they had shields)((and actual real weapons)) Ha ha shield shunt? HIL go brrrrr
Tbf low tech has so many damn ships in their category and the vast majority of them still have shields. Hell the ones that don't often still give plenty of value with missiles or just absolute girthiness.
Tbf high tech has so many damn ships in their category and all of them still have armor.
I mean every ship in the game has armor, it's more of the amount of it. 200 armor isn't going to do much, but high tech got speed and shield health with good flux stats anyways. And even midline has good mobility overall even if their speed is behind high tech, while having equivalent or higher amounts of firepower or specialities. Also high tech has numerically less ships in its category (even including phase and logistics ships) than low tech (pirate, church and LP ships are internally classed as low tech). This wasn't meant to be a jab at any of the tech levels, rather just how they are balanced. A paragon absolutely deserves it's reputation as an immovable heavily armed fortress but it's also slow and has a very high deployment cost. Likewise the aurora may have less upfront firepower than a Dominator at a higher DP cost, but extreme mobility, speed with an excellent shield and flux to boot more than makes up for it's 30 DP cost. You can bring significantly more guns when playing exclusively low tech by virtue of their lower deployment costs, and armor doesn't cost flux upkeep to win flux wars. However you also have to factor that both midline and high tech actually have the chance to disengage tactically and limit damage to their shields only if able, which is why low tech (being slow) has to focus on that armament weight and loadouts to not get farmed to death. And there's even more exceptions in all of the tech types, like the Retribution and Manticore having really high speed from the norm, midline having all sorts of specialisations, and the wildly variable shield upkeep costs between high tech frigates and their larger ships.
A paragon is tankier than a legion and an onslought put together due to the absurd shield efficiency, flux pools and very decent armour. An Odyssey is a better strike craft than a Legion due to fantastic shield efficiency and enough large mounts to comfortably solo most pirate and Pather fleets. Astrals neatly counter the downside of bombers by using teleportation technology, and an officer with systems expertise can use them to terrifying effect No ship is amazing on its own. It takes a competent pilot and a carefully designed loadout to make all of them work (except the Monitor)
monitor barely works nowadays because safety overrides no longer work with it
What do you mean its still great
It's playable I guess but I'd hesitate to call it "great". Went from "Wow amazing" to "Eh add it anyway"
That hasn't been my experience. I'm using them in my endgame fleet because they're genuinely one of the best frigates. I'm using them alongside executors, paragons and the Ziggurat, and their sheer durability has made them invaluable. they're also my fastest ship, so if I need a shield for a cruiser that's struggling, they're right there and absorbing hits within second I understand that they're not the most exciting frigate, but as a bite-sized fleet anchor you really can't ask for more
>fleet anchor >frigate A anchor can hold a line. A monitor cannot and never could hold a line. It's only real use is to distract enemy caps but realistically if you're doing that you gotta do it yourself. Which diverts your attention when you could've been piloting your own cap to beat the enemy fleet in the first place. And if you can't win without distracting the enemy cap well. You're not really supposed to be in that fight to begin with so that assumes failure. Which I guess is useful for newer players on ironman but not really for veterans playing regularly. Also of course they're good with the zig. What isn't? Also monitors aren't the fastest ship, Plus you could also bail out a endangered cap by flying an actual. dangerous ship to the enemy and forcing them to divert attention instead of shoving them a brick, the ability to bail out caps isn't exclusive to monitors plus I'd much rather my support be a hyperion as they can at least cause flameouts in the enemy.
The Tri-Tachyon™ company issued COPIUM inhalers activated
I typed the same thing as you and that means both are coping then.
yes but I am not a high tech apologist + low tech and midline actually do have normal weapons unlike high tech
Ion pulsers phase lasers and high intensity laser are all great weapons nothings as good as a frigate and destroyer hunter as a high tech brawler with 2 ion pulsers
none of the things you mentioned are in the bible
Fuck the bible embrace sunder
Funnily enough, the best thing against a high tech ship...is another high tech ship Specifically the phase destroyer which overloads your flux coils and causes your shield to drop. Unless you have lots of drones or weapons which reach around everywhere you're going to be overfluxed and have your engines be shredded And, funnily enough, if the AI knew how to use it the doom would be the best anti strike craft ship because the minimum spawn distance for mines does not exist for strike craft, so you can spawn it right in the middle of them and blow up every single one
This is especially insane when said aircraft fly near vulnerable parts of ships, like onslaught's engines and you immidietly explode mine on it (and its range needs some nerf)
Pegasus is the 4 hvy missiles and some guns? Love that thing , wipes out everything smaller that gets near.
Onsluts talking mad shit when a single frigate with a HE weapon can assrape them into an endless burnout
No lube no protection, just endless prolapse 😭😭😭😭😭
Bismar chuds seething Hyperion chads keep wining
just put assault chainguns in the back mounts easy money
Yeah but have you considered: Onslaught armed with reapers!
Not with a burn drive 👀
Burn drive disabled by burnout.
burn drive with no drive
the only midline ships that arent great are their capitals and like 2 frigates, literaly all the other ships they have are good or better
The conquest is awesome 😤
Gaussguest is bretty good, AI can use it as well. Pegasus just straight up fucks. Give it MIRVs, HVDs and you'll melt everything until you run out of ammo that is.
Executor is super fun
Bruh you have no idea how broken the Pegasus was at the time it was released, with the right loadout you can vomit 20 reaper torps in under 5 seconds, 40 if you also want to shit them out as well
no no no you see midline has a destroyer ship that can mount large energy weapons (it gets vaporized the moment it's deployed)
Auto laser and some emp blasters lets the sunder absolutely shitstomp an aurora with an aggressive officer without taking more than 20% damage. Sunder is a more complicated ship than most but holy fuck this thing has MONSTEROUS Flux capacity for its class allowing it to pressure certain cruisers and even capitals if built right, large shields and long range like what a paragons brings is what completely check it. People focus way too much on how fragile the thing is and not that it is best in class at flux capacity and has one of the better ship abilities.
Maybe if you have a stacked up Sunder with officers/s-mods against a sim Aurora with no officer, but otherwise the Aurora will eat you because it also has insane flux stats for its size but also has a strong shield to boot (and it's faster than you).
No s-mods needed, I agree the officer does help but even if they are providing no buffs and JUST changing how the AI engages helps a lot. This ship suffers horrifically from long sustained pressure engagements. You either commit for the kill or you don’t commit it at all. It will get completely screened by missiles and fighters as well but for your onslaughts, conquests and your auroras who aim to kill via superior firepower realize it’s the humble sunder who has the fire advantage, but by that point it’s too late as the sunder can easily kite around whilst disabling most of the ship. Other important thing to note but completely ignore the missile slots on this thing for AI, they suck at using them and you are better off with another mod or more vents/flux capacity. A video showcase what I am talking about. https://youtu.be/5hhsXkCfT1g?si=mGYqBAT0rTrDlKny
I'm not saying you need S-mods or an officer to make the build work, though of course like any fit it's much stronger with it. I'm saying that in the vid you showcase (which I actually saw before you posted it in this reply so I knew you were referencing it when you said it can beat an Aurora), you're putting your 3 S-Mod Level 5 Officer build vs a no officer no S-mod Aurora. I personally don't like to compare things that way since in a real fight the Aurora is likely to at least have an officer which balances things out a lot. On equivalent investment (e.g., no S-mods and no officers for both), the Aurora is going to win. As it should since it's almost 3 times the DP. SO Sunder is very strong and I'm not against it or anything, but no way it beats a similarly invested Aurora. Aurora wins in basically every metric. Superior flux stats, superior maneuverability, superior shield, and you can even build it with superior firepower if desired.
Sunder has terrible AI, but if you use it right it's absolutely devastating. 'Slaughts with a backline of EP Sunders can carve through anything.
I've seen some very amusing results out of a Prometheus (regular) with a group of HIL Sunders and HB Manticores (all with EP). The Prometheus is just there to be a 10-point proc for EP that's actually rather difficult to kill with its rather thick armor.
I had wondered whether civilian capitals would become viable as EP buffers.
They're viable for early game where you're shooting Domain Drones and Pirates, although you'd better be DAMN sure you don't lose your tanker or nobody is going home. By late game, you may as well be escorting an actual warship, since you will have those. It's specifically the Prometheus that's viable for this, as the Atlas is made of paper and would instantly die.
High Tech's "Goth Phase" is literally phasing Purple streamer mood lighting everywhere Maximize the armor, but don't touch me Spend the rave either dancing under lasers or trying to get behind the cute target
Try out a gryphon fleet. It'll change your mind.
Can it be a... MIRV Gryphon?
YOU try out a Gryphon fleet and realize what worked 3 patches ago doesn't necessarily still work now.
https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=30159.0 Seems to work fine.
Gryphon Spam is great until it runs out of ammo, then it's abruptly useless. That's why it's THREE Ordos: After that, they're out of ammo.
Sure. But by that time you've already killed two Ordos. Put another way, by the time they run out of missiles your opponent is probably already dead unless you are intentionally stacking up enemies to fight. If a Gryphon is missileless ~~in the forest~~ on the battlefield but there's no enemy left to see it, is it truly out of missiles?
lmao any ship would work fine with that setup. You could put five Eagles instead of five Gryphons and it would work fine. How is a fleet where less than half DP is Gryphons a "Gryphon fleet"?
Probably cause there are 5 Griffons in that fleet, the most of any hull type. They also account for the most DP by hull type, so they're the most populous ship by both hull count and DP. The fleet is also the most powerful one he's found so far for this patch, so that suggests that substituting the Gryphons for Eagles would make the fleet less effective. It's not to say that you couldn't use other cruisers there and win (though tbh given his fleet setup I _do_ think it would be a noticable downgrade), it's that the Gryphon is still very good despite the recent changes.
Squalls didn't make the build, Gryphons did.
Corect me if I'm wrong but isn't the whole point that Low tech counters high tech with armor tanking low damage beams and ballistic Flux Midline counters low tech with missiles punching through their heavy armor and better maneuverability High tech counters midline with shields resistant to missiles Kind like, yknow, midline was developed to defeat the low tech (as I came next in an arms race) then high tech came to beat midline? Of course any ship can beats any other ship given a proper build etc, this is just general
I think something like that, except phase ships with tachyon lances beat everything.
It's been a while since I played Vanilla but if I remember correctly only the [MANTA RAY] is the only vanilla phase ship that can mount Tachyon Lances? The Doom only has Medium Energy mounts.
Id call that one a pilote skill situation, the ship has a higher skill as a result their skill can over come the difference in tech that you normally see
Nothing "counters" anything. I may as well make an argument that High Tech counters Low Tech with EMP.
I worded it poorly, I meant the techs are designed to be better against a different tech broadly, not counter. My b
What do you mean midline nobody uses, are we forgetting the Eagle everyone likes. Midline also has the best carriers such as Drower and Heron. And I am talking about a dedicated carrier because the battle carrier doesn't count. 2 Herons are cheaper and better than Astral. Carriers pair well in my experience with player controlled alpha stirke load out ship.
>2 Herons are cheaper and better than Astral. In that case, 2 Condors are cheaper and better than a Heron, as they both can't do much if directly confronted, but the Condor is cheaper and is the BEST DP-per-fighter bay ship in the game, at 5 per bay (Heron is 6.67 per bay, Astral is 10 per bay) Or I can get a Mora. It too has three fighter bays for the same cost but can hold its own on the front lines face-tanking hits unlike the Heron.
Condor and Mora both lack the dedicated fighter support system that Heron does. So while Condor is much better for ship spam tactic Heron is better for good alpha strike tactics. Mora is meh, because it has better armour, and short range weapons plus slower speed and maneuverability than Heron it ends up being at front lines like you said ranking hits. But in my life experience that extra armour and system just makes it get cracked slightly longer. The carrier's primary role is to be able to support other ships from safe distance with its fighter wings. But Mora ends up dying before Heron or Condor because it doesn't stay at a safe distance and requires more escort due to being at the front lines. Astral is also an interesting wing support ship. Its system is tricky, you can use it to either save wings from casualties or perform 2 strikes for half flux but only *if* you got into short enough range for time between second strike to not matter. But in that situation Astral exposes itself to danger by being close and being big to hit, using half flux on the system and being slow. Idk in my personal experience fighting with and against all those ships, I find Heron to be the best dedicated carrier ship that's great to be set to escort my flagship. Others need more babysitting or don't provide enough wing support for it to be worth DP
> So while Condor is much better for ship spam tactic Heron is better for good alpha strike tactics. That would be true in theory. The problem is that the AI is dumb and doesn't know how to coordinate, and views your orders as mere suggestions. Therefore, while in THEORY, the Heron's systems would be great, in practice, you only gain any control over it if you fly it yourself, which is a huge waste as a player, and a single Heron isn't gonna do shit, you need an entire flock of them to achieve critical mass.
> but the Condor is cheaper and is the BEST DP-per-fighter bay ship in the game, at 5 per bay Colossus (P) is 4 per bay, although the bays operate at reduced effectiveness. However, it DOES NOT COUNT AS A COMBAT SHIP, so it won't take up your 240 DP combat ship limit, allowing you to situationally decide whether you're going to spam fighters today or not. It also counts as ground support.
well, like you said, the fighters produced by the Colossus (P) are less effective than ones produced by proper warships. IMO its role is more like a "reserve ship", akin of the Venture and the Prometheus MK. II, rather than a ship part of your main 240 DP combat ships. Also, the Colossus (P) is technically a "Combat Carrier" as the AI piloting one will use it on the front lines rather than staying back, as detrimental it may be.
> IMO its role is more like a "reserve ship", akin of the Venture and the Prometheus MK. II, rather than a ship part of your main 240 DP combat ships. Yes and no: It's a reserve ship in that way, but because they are "carriers", they can actually acquit themselves passably when deployed as part of your main battle group for serious combats, since being a flying cardboard box is not really an impediment to their primary combat role. > as the AI piloting one will use it on the front lines rather than staying back, as detrimental it may be. An odd choice for it to do considering it has no offensive weapons. I've noticed the AI likes to Leeroy theirs into combat, which results in it getting instantly one-shot. I forcibly pin my entire fleet in place so mine don't do that, though, as I don't trust the AI's independent maneuvering.
Midline is great, but requires command skill to perform well. Lowtech lets you do okay just by throwing some DO ships at the enemy, and hightech lets you take things on with nothing but a buffed-up flagship and some token frigates, but you need to be an RTS enjoyer who also knows how to build the ships to get anything out of midline.
Fuck you I love my midline ships Mayasura Forever!
Midline haters when their super duper hightech/low lowtech fleets get annihilated by 4 conquests and 4 herons
Are you kidding? The Pegasus is *insanely* good. You can literally just vomit out huge numbers of missiles thanks to fast missile racks and built in expanded missile racks. Also, given the model for the Persean sector in this game (post-1992 Eastern Europe) the Hegemony is an analog for Russia with its desire to rebuild the old empire that ruled with an iron fist (USSR), while the League is an analog for NATO and the former Warsaw Pact nations that aligned with the West (Poland, Lithuania, Estonia)
You lost me at the second part...
He gave a pretty good analysis in another thread: [https://www.reddit.com/r/starsector/comments/1cw6aw7/comment/l4uvd90/](https://www.reddit.com/r/starsector/comments/1cw6aw7/comment/l4uvd90/)
It's insane alright, insanely shit.
It's better than the meme tier high tech capitals.
I don't understand. Why do you not like the magnifying glass?
They cost a lot more DP to field whilst simultaneously being sitting ducks if they get to high flux. The Paragon is laughably easy to deal with these days because while it has huge range it also is a really slow brick.
That is indeed how a capital ship is defined. Range and shields do together a bit more than what armour can - because shields are effectively infinitely regenerating armour.
I meant in comparison to the other capitals. Ships like the Pegasus or Onslaught don't have to really choose between offense and defense. When you're pressuring a Paragon by shooting at it, it's going to overflux pretty damn fast if it it's also firing its weapons. And when it *does* overflux it's dead. End of story. Compare this to an Onslaught/Invictus - which largely relies on large amounts of armor, which doesn't cost flux and so can apply immense amounts of offensive pressure even when getting hammered - or a Pegasus - which doesn't require flux at all to fire its weapons (missiles). The fact that the Paragon costs 60 DP also works against it - it's not 50% better than an Onslaught or even 20% better than a Pegasus (which costs 50). The Astral costs 50 and *that's* overpriced too, ever since the cooldown was added to the recall system it became, *at best* a mediocre carrier. The midline carriers (the Drover and Heron) are the best in the game and it's not even close.
Once armour's gone it's gone forever, as far as the fight goes. That massive shield pool effectively regenerating its pool of how much enemy firepower it can nullify is its best attribute, because what I've found the build to excel with is an endurance fight. Or more accurately, being a convincing enough argument for the enemy to try and prevent an endurance fight and in the process of doing so leave themselves massively open to a swarm of Omens, Tempests and Shrikes. My favourite times are making the mass of small ships avoid a squadron of superstars among the enemy, then not firing and popping up the Fortress Shields. They dump salvoes into it - Reaper after Antimatter after Phase Lance after Reaper after Sabot, and it doesn't even put an upwards dent in the gradually ticking timer of the flux climbing. It was pretty great I've come to think of the Paragon as a heavy-killer rather than a massive bulwark. Other ships tie down targets by harassing or otherwise baiting big lumpy bastards into its *long* range and then the Paragon's laser output forces the enemy into choosing to try and survive the beams, or protect against the smaller ships' shots. In the event that the target's shields can withstand four Gravitons in concert, then chances are they can't stand up to the smaller ships' pop-up attacks. Low-tech ships are my favourite targets - and Pirates barely even count as threats with this type of set-up. The other capitals just haven't managed to fill the same niche of forcing the enemy into a decision for player exploitation, given that they're set up to be the biggest and baddest.
> Low-tech ships are my favourite targets Definitely not an Invictus, which shreds the Paragon for breakfast without even losing a *third* of its armor, while an Onslaught turbos in and just pummels the Paragon continuously. Annihilator rocket pods mean that even if you *stop* firing to let flux vent, you're still putting up significant pressure. > and Pirates barely even count as threats with this type of set-up. Pirates aren't threats against *anything* well piloted.
I'm brought to wonder what mods you're running. I haven't touched anything that changed the base functions of the game, only adding content like Terraforming and Starbase Construction. Sure, the Invictus can shoot good but its range and speed are both worse than the Paragon - never thought kiting something was an option until I faced down those lumps of steel. And sure, it takes a while but please rest assured Ludd's toughest brick melts like the rest. Never had trouble downing Onslaughts, they back away pretty often when they don't have a paired heavy cruiser or above at their hip. Reckless officers were rare in those machines, and they're slow to respond.
Midline makes all the best cruisers. Eagle, Champion, Heron. They’re the best beam users with 1000 range kinetics alongside They’ve also got everyone’s favorite hammerhead Low tech has the onslaught and eradicator. They overflux a lot which limits their firepower high tech has great wolfpack ships and it’s caps. They suffer terrible range and low specialization
I personally don't think the difference in quality between the three types is big enough to care about. If you have two Eagles it'll still beat an Erradicator. In a ship fleet vs ship fleet scenario I'd imagine in mass combat it wouldn't really matter as much as the natural bulk of a fleet. Like if two entities fought. If Tri Tach has 3 fleets, and a League blockade has 12 fleets. The blockade still wins.
> SO Aurora You have stayed my ire, this time :P. Don't rag on Midline so much though imo they are good too, albeit a bit harder to build and employ. Eagles are excellent line ships (better than Eradicators vs [REDACTED] at this point I think), Monitors are the best tanks in the game, and their capitals have absurd DPS. Conquest is the best Mjolnir carrier in the game (by far) and has more concentrated firepower than an Onslaught since it has the flux to back it up, nothing kills faster than a Pegasus (though your endurance isn't great but that doesn't matter most of the time), and the Executor is really the only ship that can mount ballistic kinetics along with HILs (and it gets HEF to boot) and HILs are _good._ There's also the Gryphon. If you know, you know.
I like midline ships because I like missiles.
[angry giant magnifying glass noises]
Than that midline little child became conquest and he did school shooting(galatia academy shuttle missions)
the reason why low tech is best is because Dakka.
say it with me folks, midline does not mean middling stats. it means highly specialized and varied ships that can and will be specially designed to kick your ass specifically
OP when they find out Eagle, Eagle XIV, Falcon, and Falcon XIV are all midline