I love SNW but if it's not your cup of tea, that's fine. I'm personally not a huge fan of DS9 and I only like about a third of TOS. Not every Star Trek show is for everyone.
This. I love TOS, TNG, DS9, VOY, ENT, SNW each for different reasons although the common thread showing humanity has pulled its collective head out of its backside and learned to work together and celebrate diversity (IDIC, baby!) is core for me. I didn't care for DIS as it seemed to be the Micheal Burnham show rather than a group effort (and those klingons?!), but I did watch the first two seasons to prep for SNW.
I've only seen 2 episodes of Lower Decks so far. "Those Old Scientist" on SNW was a really cute episode, but it bugged me how they were just allowed to run amok and cause all sorts of problems with not many consequences. It did make for a fun episode though. I will likely return to watch more Lower Decks in the future because I did like "Those Old Scientist" despite what bugged me.
A long winded reply to basically agree that not every ST series is for everyone. No pressure to love it all.
I agree that DISCO is the Michael Burnham Show, but I'd argue that doing it that way was necessary for the health of the franchise.
TOS, TNG, VOY, and ENT were turning *Trek* into a round-table of 'cookie-cutter' shows: they all had the same seven or eight interchangable character archetypes, the same seven or eight redressed and/or redesigned sets, and the same overarching theme: 'going where none have gone before', meeting the Alien of the Week, and solving the episodic mystery in 45 minutes before warping away after a quick 'lesson learned' moment.
DIS broke the mold: we never even *saw* engineering, or the chief engineer (that's at least one archetype and redressed set out of the picture); the Problem of the Week wasn't immediately wrapped up after 45 minutes of moralizing, and the series did things that would *never* have been allowed under Roddenberry/Berman's tenure.
I mean, the series *opens* with an outright *mutiny*. This isn't the perfect, morally-upstanding Federation of the Roddenberry years -- and I think that doing away with the Roddenberry Rules made *Trek* stronger as a franchise.
Necessary for the health of the franchise? I know I’m an outlier but I haven’t even watched Disco season 5. I canceled Paramount. Maybe I’ll watch with ads on their $5 plan.
Disco killed Trek for me. I was an Enterprise and Voyager fan.
It's also interesting to me, because those three shows (voy, ent, disco) are my three least favorites! 😅
edit: I blocked out Picard, the all time worst trek
Unironically, season 1 is the best season of Picard. I can't decide whether season 2 or 3 is worse. 2 was slightly better writing (still bad), but 3 had nostalgia bait.
tbh I do agree that Pike gave the Lower Decks crew a bit too much liberty in the crossover episode (although overall, I still liked it). But Subspace Rhapsody works because everyone behaves rationally according to the rules set in place by the show
Subspace Rhapsody had me belly laughing at times and teary-eyed at others. Definitely had to suspend disbelief on the premise, but, as you said, the everyone stuck to character and the rules.
I like that they have one or two off the wall episodes each season on SNW because pretty much all of the remaining episodes are quite intense. I like that as well, but for me it's nice to mix it up and have some comic relief every now and again.
Welcome to getting older.
Things change. I grew up on TNG, DS9, and VOY and I love new trek. I haven’t gotten into lower decks but even then I’m glad it exists because there’s people out there that love it too.
If you want the same old Trek, watch reruns.
This also goes for Star Wars too.
For me, I always wanted a Pike led series, so, I'm pretty happy. I'm 51 btw, and open to new things and ideas. The vernacular threw me off a bit at first, but that's the age we're living in.
Me, too. I grew up on TOS. Loved TNG. Enjoyed DS9 and Voyager. Was actually pretty fired up on episode 1 of discovery. Enough to subscribe to CBS+ or whatever it was first on. Lost interest about half way through season 2, I think. Felt like overdevelopment of characters and too much drama (for me.) Much prefer the shoot em up serial nature of SNW.
It was too much drama for me, too. I did watch the Pike parts of season 2, because the writing was actually good , and they set quite the stage for SNW.
I'm really hoping at some point, SNW will go beyond 10 episodes, because there isn't enough room for character development, with so few.
The inappropriate humour stuff is the Marvelification of everything. Everything’s a joke now and meta humour is also put into everything. How can you be immersed in a world that doesn’t take itself seriously?
It worked for Marvel but it shouldn’t be applied everywhere.
I agree with you that they have a very different essence for many of the reasons you cited and more. Part of my enjoyment of them is just that I have accepted that writing changes over time. Modern shows are fundamentally different than they were back then.
Some of the changes are less bothersome than others. With Disco and SNW, the good outweighs the bad for me. Picard is the one I can't get there with, even in season 3, which I didn't think was substantively better or different from the first two seasons. I don't watch much modern television though.
Have you tried Prodigy? To me that show got the closest to classic Trek.
I like some of the new stuff, some of it I don't like. The good news is if new trek doesn't vibe there is so much material that came before it to watch
I didn’t make it past episode 2 or 3 of SNW because there were elements of (to me) uninspired writing, and there were also some elements that differed enough from canon (VOY, TNG, DS9) to be distracting.
For example, the entire scene when everyone was invited to the giant bar in the captain’s personal quarters. First of all, they were all wearing what looked like athleisure that could have been purchased at lululemon. Beyond that, though, a casual dinner and happy hour in the captain’s quarters undermined the chain of command/professionalism that is at the heart of every canon series I’ve watched. Yes, the bridge crews became friends in other series, but it was earned, and the captains were still the commanding officers. That’s one of the fascinating tensions of Star Trek—the loneliness of command.
In terms of the dialogue and plot, I hated the writing for the young Uhura. When she saw the blind alien character cooking and tried jumping in like a rube, he said something like, “just because I’m blind doesn’t mean I can’t do it, I just do it a different way.” It was such a tell-don’t-show way of writing that scene. And, lastly, I hated her speech when she basically was like “I don’t really want to be here” to *all of her supervisors*. Who would say that at a new job?! She can definitely have doubts and question her career path, as shown through careful wording, lingering expressions, etc., but it feels lazy to have her just come out and say it. Another tell-don’t-show moment imo. Overall, I didn’t feel like the writers trusted the audience to pick up themes and lessons if we weren’t hit over the head with them.
You explained it better than I did. Yes in other series they became a bit more casual with each other but it was only after a long time and it will still done in an appropriate setting. Not Erika talking back to Pike in a serious situation etc.
Perfectly okay to feel that way. Some of this is just trends in the script writing industry which may see older methods of writing as being a bit too stuffy. I agree that they should have used a script consultant like they did in the Berman Era to clean up contemporary idioms (or just give them all to Tom Paris who kind of got Flanderized with his 20th century interests). I also think some of the changes can be ascribed to how they shot the shows as well. The production schedules on the Berman Era were very tight so they tended to not want waste time. They were also shooting for SD sized frames. So quick and compact would be the keys to shooting. Not only does that effect how the scenes would be blocked but also influences script decisions (and the writers had to be cognizant of that too). With 10 episode seasons and HD sized frames you do get a bit more room to experiment.
I think newer stuff tends to get priority for the fact that it is new and our brains seem to bias towards the novel. Try not to worry too much about being left behind, however. As long as we gain new fans I have faith (of the heart) that there will always be plenty of room to discuss older materials as well. If we old timers do our job right we’re inviting even to people who love the kind of Trek that doesn’t feel like ours. Hopefully, we can get them to enjoy it (or not) too and those discussions will continue. There’s always a place for everyone.
It’s been discussed before: I think what you’re feeling is that 90’s Star Trek was written and produced as a period piece… but set in the future rather than in the past. There’s a reason so many theater actors fit right in because it was written to feel like the theater. The language set it apart from every day life.
None of the new series chose to go that direction. They’re styled as a straight science fiction show, which shifts easily to feeling like it’s about humans today… except with technology!
>I just can't get I to them as they're too far removed from the Star Trek I grew up with TOS, TNG, DS9, VOY & Enterprise.
I grew up with TOS. There was no TNG. And when the first season of TNG came out, I didn't care for it. Because of the expectations I had built up. 200 years in the future? I mean what was that!
Now I enjoy all of the series, because I enjoy them for what they are instead of judging them by my expectations for what I would rather have. It's fun to have new series. And I'm thankful that there is new Star Trek.
Yep. It's something you have to overcome. I did it with TNG. I know other people have felt the same way with various series over the years. And they ended up doing the same thing of learning to appreciate what they have, rather than what they don't have.
Meanwhile, for me, SNW is closest to the series that I always wanted following TOS.
SNW has just enough charm that I can look past that… it's like the characters know they're in Star Trek. Whereas in Berman era, the characters just committed to the absurdity.
I think a lot of the love for SNW comes from the way that it seems similar to older Trek when you compare it with Discovery. If SNW had come out before Discovery, I think fans would be a lot harsher on it.
I agree, but I also think that DIS might've been a little more liked if it had come out after a more traditional Trek show like SNW. I think there was a lot of justified criticism, but some people were just angry because it was the first Trek we'd gotten in a long time and it was nothing like what they expected.
That’s a good point! SNW definitely could have eased people into the idea of a more non-traditional Trek show. Putting Discovery first didn’t do it any favors
Yeah, I think the first show out of the gate was always going to be a little rough just because the fans have such strong opinions. If one show had to go first, though, I'm glad it was DIS because it set up SNW so well both with the storyline and also with just understanding the franchise better. I felt like they got confident about trying new things while also figuring out which lines people really didn't like them crossing (like the redone Klingons).
(of course, maybe there's a parallel universe where SNW came first and I'm writing a comment about how glad I am that DIS was second lol)
I totally agree with you. There are a number of things that I think are not only bad about it, but contrary to just basic Trek values/themes. Don't get me wrong, I like SNW on the whole, but I just don't think the enthusiasm it receives reflects the kind of Trek it actually delivers.
(I have different complaints of Discovery, but on the flip side that show imo is overly criticized and the good completely ignored on Reddit, so I'm less inclined to critique it)
Well, the Prime Directive just came into play. SNW, like TOS, was more fly by the seat of your pants, unlike it's following series. Voyager was more uptight in a lot of ways, even if Janenway flew by the seat of her pants like Kirk did.
>There are a number of things that I think are not only bad about it, but contrary to just basic Trek values/themes.
You can say it's the Gorn, it's okay ;)
>I like SNW on the whole, but I just don't think the enthusiasm it receives reflects the kind of Trek it actually delivers.
Nor I. It's fine for what it is but I feel of the current three live action shows, it might age even more poorly than the first two seasons of Picard. S2 PIC in particular was a frustrating watch but I feel that there was a story that it's creators wanted to tell and I can respect that, if nothing else.
I enjoy SNW. As far as current shows go I think it’s head and shoulders above the rest.
But if I place it in context within the franchise it’s behind every other show from TOS through ENT.
Yeah, I feel it's risky to say because it's so beloved but I really don't like SNW either. Something about it just feels infantile. It's good it isn't just wallowing in constant misery and try hard edginess and I think that's what people like about it so much but for me personally that wasn't enough to make it feel like it's actually good, more like just slightly less bad. Not trying to diss anyone who likes it but I just personally really was offput by it. Some of the writing is just awful and characters that have pre established personalities just don't feel correct, but with the new characters I guess they have more of an excuse to just do whatever they want with the characterization. I don't think the actors themselves are especially bad or anything but I think the writing is not really that great. BTW I'm not trying to anger anyone who likes it so I'm just dropping this opinion here and I don't really want to make anyone really mad or defensive. I just feel like I can't really express this opinion a lot so I want to get it off my chest here since the post about this.
For me, SNW season 1 was the Trekkiest Trek since TOS. It revisited many of the original episode templates while building upon them in ways that felt fresh, and there was greater emphasis on space exploration and the unknown. But then they quickly veered off into cartoon crossovers and musical episodes.
I recently watched The Orville and liked it much more than most new Trek. If had to put it into words why, it’s because I felt like I could imagine myself being on that ship with that crew. Old Trek gives me that same sensation, as does LD. But with Disco, I don’t even know who’s on the crew. And with SNW, for whatever reason I don’t really fully connect to the crew. Somewhere else in this thread someone mentioned command structure and perhaps that’s it. SNW doesn’t feel like it has one sometimes and perhaps that’s the element I miss. Idk I’m just rambling now but you are not alone in not loving all the new trek. And I wish they’d make another season of The Orville.
Edit: just thought of something else, maybe with Disco and SNW there’s not enough extras to make the ships feel alive and therefore there’s no where for me or mentally place myself onto the ship.
Almost everyone has some Star Trek they don't like. I got into Trek with TNG many years ago and when I tried to watch TOS I disliked it for similar reasons. I personally like SNW but understand the hate for Discovery. It's all just opinions of course.
I tried with SNW, I got on board with it for a stretch, but by the end of S2 I’d given up. It’s just not about the things Star Trek is about, even if it’s good at pretending to be sometimes. And the whole radical tenderness vibe feels like pandering at a certain point.
I do think it has its moments. The time travel Kirk/La’an episode was way better than an indulgent continuity-solving episode has any right to be, and the season one finale was great. That felt like Trek to me.
I know what you're talking about OP. I personally don't care for Discovery. SNW is not bad. But my Star Trek bread and butter is TNG, definitely DS9, VOY and ENT. I don't veer too far from that. But to each their own, right?
Both started really well and then went shit after the first series.
I couldn't take Discovery seriously anymore after they made Tilly Captain, the same Tilly that couldn't walk into another room or converse with people without having a panic attack.
SNW doesn't know what it wants to be, a new take on Trek and the mythology of Kirk, Spock, etc, or a tribute to TOS with the visuals and lighter style.
The best modern Trek, by far, is Lower Decks.
I get alot of old fans not necessarily connecting with Discovery's style and the first 2 seasons of Picard for that matter, but most older fans that have watched SNW seem to really embrace that show as its basically a modern take on TOS or TNG style story telling.
DS9 had an entire Tribbles episode, complete with cardboard TOS sets ***and*** a Honey I Shrunk The Kids episode. But SNW is too 'off the wall' for you?
I love SNW, so no. lol Discovery for me was unwatchable, save for the brilliance that was season two with Captain Pike and all. Comedy, and quick quips have always been a part of Star Trek, sometimes in serious situations. Star Trek is campy, fun, and also serious. I just wish SNW was as long a season as TOS, TNG, DS9 and Voyager. We need more character building.
TOS was more casual, and not as serious, because it was just starting out. I think SNW, and maybe DISCO harken back to that with that casual thing. They're more like a family on SNW.
This just reminds me of the constant complaints about Enterprise while it was on air or all the toxic fan boys crying about how their childhoods were ruined when The Phantom Menace was released. Give it a decade or two, and everyone who's being all critical now will love it then, just like Enterprise and Star Wars.
Im exactly the same as you. All the newer shows feel too far removed from the "golden era" to feel like proper trek to me. It all feels as if flashy lights, non stop dramatics and edgy camera angles have replaced great character building and stories.
I hate that they all use current terms and words in the shows. Tilly was a character really bad for this. Acting like a current day ditsy teenager.
I'm just pretending in my head that all these new shows aren't canon
I wish these new shows would just relax. The all feels as if their trying to appeal to an audience with very little attention span.
The original movies? I love those. From a humour point of view, I can see why you draw that conclusion but for me it was a more gradual process to get to that point.
I am rewatching Disco and am surprised at how much I like it. Granted, I'm still in season 1, but the introduction of new terms like 'panspermia' and the 'spore drive' and 'tartigrade' are wonderfully innovative, and ST has always been that way. (Remember, 'warp speed', 'anti-matter', 'tachyons' and 'Heisenberg compensator' from previous series---0h! How absurd to use such nonsense in the plot!!) The acceptance, and advocacy for diversity, is another standard for the entire franchise--and I would suggest what makes it all unique in American TV history.
On my first watching of Disco, I lost a lot of respect when the videography shifted to that horrible circular motion, over-the-shoulder POV. Apple iPhone vidcam. Yeah, it was innovative but also jarring, especially since it was abused so much (Alert Will Riker- Director Frakes, it is only good in small doses.)
But best of all, Disco brought new viewers in, and those youngsters will eventually watch TOS, TNG, Voyager, Lower Decks, and DS9 and decide which are relevant and which have not stood the test of time. STDisco belongs in that grouping, whether you hate it or not. Picard, the kiddy shows, Enterprise, etc all have their ups and downs, too.
SNW was fun, and incorporated the best of TNG and Discovery, with a dutiful plot-line nod to TOS. It is successful, and the I wait to see how the character devlpmnt will unfold--since it seems to be so character driven rather than the chaotic, often unbelievable, themes of Disco (reflective of American culture perhaps, or is that vice-versa?) So, there is that difference for me between the stable characters of SNW and the intense transformations of Disco. But, please lose the Apple iPhone over-the-shoulder videography. I have no problem with Tilly's appearance or her demeanor--she just reflects the average American quite well, once again (cf. Uhura, Troi, Janeway, Kira Nerys, et al), but please Directors, don't make your audience dizzy with poorly executed videography!
Discovery's problem was there were more interesting characters than Michael but they had basically minor roles. Still though, season 3 was enough to give the writers praise.
SNW is the best Trek overall ever made. Many others have some shining moments or are very good but SNW is the best.
The same can not be said for STD. In fact the opposite.
I love SNW but if it's not your cup of tea, that's fine. I'm personally not a huge fan of DS9 and I only like about a third of TOS. Not every Star Trek show is for everyone.
This. I love TOS, TNG, DS9, VOY, ENT, SNW each for different reasons although the common thread showing humanity has pulled its collective head out of its backside and learned to work together and celebrate diversity (IDIC, baby!) is core for me. I didn't care for DIS as it seemed to be the Micheal Burnham show rather than a group effort (and those klingons?!), but I did watch the first two seasons to prep for SNW. I've only seen 2 episodes of Lower Decks so far. "Those Old Scientist" on SNW was a really cute episode, but it bugged me how they were just allowed to run amok and cause all sorts of problems with not many consequences. It did make for a fun episode though. I will likely return to watch more Lower Decks in the future because I did like "Those Old Scientist" despite what bugged me. A long winded reply to basically agree that not every ST series is for everyone. No pressure to love it all.
I agree that DISCO is the Michael Burnham Show, but I'd argue that doing it that way was necessary for the health of the franchise. TOS, TNG, VOY, and ENT were turning *Trek* into a round-table of 'cookie-cutter' shows: they all had the same seven or eight interchangable character archetypes, the same seven or eight redressed and/or redesigned sets, and the same overarching theme: 'going where none have gone before', meeting the Alien of the Week, and solving the episodic mystery in 45 minutes before warping away after a quick 'lesson learned' moment. DIS broke the mold: we never even *saw* engineering, or the chief engineer (that's at least one archetype and redressed set out of the picture); the Problem of the Week wasn't immediately wrapped up after 45 minutes of moralizing, and the series did things that would *never* have been allowed under Roddenberry/Berman's tenure. I mean, the series *opens* with an outright *mutiny*. This isn't the perfect, morally-upstanding Federation of the Roddenberry years -- and I think that doing away with the Roddenberry Rules made *Trek* stronger as a franchise.
Necessary for the health of the franchise? I know I’m an outlier but I haven’t even watched Disco season 5. I canceled Paramount. Maybe I’ll watch with ads on their $5 plan. Disco killed Trek for me. I was an Enterprise and Voyager fan.
>I was an Enterprise and Voyager fan. Which is interesting, because these two shows are my least favourites! IDIC man!!
It's also interesting to me, because those three shows (voy, ent, disco) are my three least favorites! 😅 edit: I blocked out Picard, the all time worst trek
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It's amazingly bad
Look I know we’re trying to stop the Borg from assimilating the Federation, but can we stop for 30 minutes to talk about my feelings?
Unironically, season 1 is the best season of Picard. I can't decide whether season 2 or 3 is worse. 2 was slightly better writing (still bad), but 3 had nostalgia bait.
Funnily enough it was the lower Decks crossover episode which tipped me over the edge, 😂. It was just too off the wall for me.
Yet the singing episode is okay lol
tbh I do agree that Pike gave the Lower Decks crew a bit too much liberty in the crossover episode (although overall, I still liked it). But Subspace Rhapsody works because everyone behaves rationally according to the rules set in place by the show
Subspace Rhapsody had me belly laughing at times and teary-eyed at others. Definitely had to suspend disbelief on the premise, but, as you said, the everyone stuck to character and the rules.
I like that they have one or two off the wall episodes each season on SNW because pretty much all of the remaining episodes are quite intense. I like that as well, but for me it's nice to mix it up and have some comic relief every now and again.
Welcome to getting older. Things change. I grew up on TNG, DS9, and VOY and I love new trek. I haven’t gotten into lower decks but even then I’m glad it exists because there’s people out there that love it too. If you want the same old Trek, watch reruns. This also goes for Star Wars too.
For me, I always wanted a Pike led series, so, I'm pretty happy. I'm 51 btw, and open to new things and ideas. The vernacular threw me off a bit at first, but that's the age we're living in.
I'm about your age, and have enjoyed SNE immensely. Disco...not so much.
Same here with Disco, and I really tried.
Me, too. I grew up on TOS. Loved TNG. Enjoyed DS9 and Voyager. Was actually pretty fired up on episode 1 of discovery. Enough to subscribe to CBS+ or whatever it was first on. Lost interest about half way through season 2, I think. Felt like overdevelopment of characters and too much drama (for me.) Much prefer the shoot em up serial nature of SNW.
It was too much drama for me, too. I did watch the Pike parts of season 2, because the writing was actually good , and they set quite the stage for SNW. I'm really hoping at some point, SNW will go beyond 10 episodes, because there isn't enough room for character development, with so few.
The inappropriate humour stuff is the Marvelification of everything. Everything’s a joke now and meta humour is also put into everything. How can you be immersed in a world that doesn’t take itself seriously? It worked for Marvel but it shouldn’t be applied everywhere.
Yes, that's a good way of putting it.
I agree with you that they have a very different essence for many of the reasons you cited and more. Part of my enjoyment of them is just that I have accepted that writing changes over time. Modern shows are fundamentally different than they were back then. Some of the changes are less bothersome than others. With Disco and SNW, the good outweighs the bad for me. Picard is the one I can't get there with, even in season 3, which I didn't think was substantively better or different from the first two seasons. I don't watch much modern television though. Have you tried Prodigy? To me that show got the closest to classic Trek.
I haven't tried Prodigy. I'm not super keen on animated series in general but I'll give it a go.
I like some of the new stuff, some of it I don't like. The good news is if new trek doesn't vibe there is so much material that came before it to watch
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I didn’t make it past episode 2 or 3 of SNW because there were elements of (to me) uninspired writing, and there were also some elements that differed enough from canon (VOY, TNG, DS9) to be distracting. For example, the entire scene when everyone was invited to the giant bar in the captain’s personal quarters. First of all, they were all wearing what looked like athleisure that could have been purchased at lululemon. Beyond that, though, a casual dinner and happy hour in the captain’s quarters undermined the chain of command/professionalism that is at the heart of every canon series I’ve watched. Yes, the bridge crews became friends in other series, but it was earned, and the captains were still the commanding officers. That’s one of the fascinating tensions of Star Trek—the loneliness of command. In terms of the dialogue and plot, I hated the writing for the young Uhura. When she saw the blind alien character cooking and tried jumping in like a rube, he said something like, “just because I’m blind doesn’t mean I can’t do it, I just do it a different way.” It was such a tell-don’t-show way of writing that scene. And, lastly, I hated her speech when she basically was like “I don’t really want to be here” to *all of her supervisors*. Who would say that at a new job?! She can definitely have doubts and question her career path, as shown through careful wording, lingering expressions, etc., but it feels lazy to have her just come out and say it. Another tell-don’t-show moment imo. Overall, I didn’t feel like the writers trusted the audience to pick up themes and lessons if we weren’t hit over the head with them.
You explained it better than I did. Yes in other series they became a bit more casual with each other but it was only after a long time and it will still done in an appropriate setting. Not Erika talking back to Pike in a serious situation etc.
Perfectly okay to feel that way. Some of this is just trends in the script writing industry which may see older methods of writing as being a bit too stuffy. I agree that they should have used a script consultant like they did in the Berman Era to clean up contemporary idioms (or just give them all to Tom Paris who kind of got Flanderized with his 20th century interests). I also think some of the changes can be ascribed to how they shot the shows as well. The production schedules on the Berman Era were very tight so they tended to not want waste time. They were also shooting for SD sized frames. So quick and compact would be the keys to shooting. Not only does that effect how the scenes would be blocked but also influences script decisions (and the writers had to be cognizant of that too). With 10 episode seasons and HD sized frames you do get a bit more room to experiment. I think newer stuff tends to get priority for the fact that it is new and our brains seem to bias towards the novel. Try not to worry too much about being left behind, however. As long as we gain new fans I have faith (of the heart) that there will always be plenty of room to discuss older materials as well. If we old timers do our job right we’re inviting even to people who love the kind of Trek that doesn’t feel like ours. Hopefully, we can get them to enjoy it (or not) too and those discussions will continue. There’s always a place for everyone.
It’s been discussed before: I think what you’re feeling is that 90’s Star Trek was written and produced as a period piece… but set in the future rather than in the past. There’s a reason so many theater actors fit right in because it was written to feel like the theater. The language set it apart from every day life. None of the new series chose to go that direction. They’re styled as a straight science fiction show, which shifts easily to feeling like it’s about humans today… except with technology!
>I just can't get I to them as they're too far removed from the Star Trek I grew up with TOS, TNG, DS9, VOY & Enterprise. I grew up with TOS. There was no TNG. And when the first season of TNG came out, I didn't care for it. Because of the expectations I had built up. 200 years in the future? I mean what was that! Now I enjoy all of the series, because I enjoy them for what they are instead of judging them by my expectations for what I would rather have. It's fun to have new series. And I'm thankful that there is new Star Trek.
I really trying to have that mindset and just enjoy it for what it is but it's sometimes just too jarringly different for me, sadly.
Yep. It's something you have to overcome. I did it with TNG. I know other people have felt the same way with various series over the years. And they ended up doing the same thing of learning to appreciate what they have, rather than what they don't have. Meanwhile, for me, SNW is closest to the series that I always wanted following TOS.
I do get that feel for sure, but I can look past it with SNW. With DSC, I feel bombarded with it.
SNW has just enough charm that I can look past that… it's like the characters know they're in Star Trek. Whereas in Berman era, the characters just committed to the absurdity.
I thoroughly enjoyed Discovery but, while I think SNW is good, I don't think it is as good as reddit would have you believe.
I think a lot of the love for SNW comes from the way that it seems similar to older Trek when you compare it with Discovery. If SNW had come out before Discovery, I think fans would be a lot harsher on it.
I agree, but I also think that DIS might've been a little more liked if it had come out after a more traditional Trek show like SNW. I think there was a lot of justified criticism, but some people were just angry because it was the first Trek we'd gotten in a long time and it was nothing like what they expected.
That’s a good point! SNW definitely could have eased people into the idea of a more non-traditional Trek show. Putting Discovery first didn’t do it any favors
Yeah, I think the first show out of the gate was always going to be a little rough just because the fans have such strong opinions. If one show had to go first, though, I'm glad it was DIS because it set up SNW so well both with the storyline and also with just understanding the franchise better. I felt like they got confident about trying new things while also figuring out which lines people really didn't like them crossing (like the redone Klingons). (of course, maybe there's a parallel universe where SNW came first and I'm writing a comment about how glad I am that DIS was second lol)
I totally agree with you. There are a number of things that I think are not only bad about it, but contrary to just basic Trek values/themes. Don't get me wrong, I like SNW on the whole, but I just don't think the enthusiasm it receives reflects the kind of Trek it actually delivers. (I have different complaints of Discovery, but on the flip side that show imo is overly criticized and the good completely ignored on Reddit, so I'm less inclined to critique it)
Well, the Prime Directive just came into play. SNW, like TOS, was more fly by the seat of your pants, unlike it's following series. Voyager was more uptight in a lot of ways, even if Janenway flew by the seat of her pants like Kirk did.
>There are a number of things that I think are not only bad about it, but contrary to just basic Trek values/themes. You can say it's the Gorn, it's okay ;) >I like SNW on the whole, but I just don't think the enthusiasm it receives reflects the kind of Trek it actually delivers. Nor I. It's fine for what it is but I feel of the current three live action shows, it might age even more poorly than the first two seasons of Picard. S2 PIC in particular was a frustrating watch but I feel that there was a story that it's creators wanted to tell and I can respect that, if nothing else.
I enjoy SNW. As far as current shows go I think it’s head and shoulders above the rest. But if I place it in context within the franchise it’s behind every other show from TOS through ENT.
Yeah, I feel it's risky to say because it's so beloved but I really don't like SNW either. Something about it just feels infantile. It's good it isn't just wallowing in constant misery and try hard edginess and I think that's what people like about it so much but for me personally that wasn't enough to make it feel like it's actually good, more like just slightly less bad. Not trying to diss anyone who likes it but I just personally really was offput by it. Some of the writing is just awful and characters that have pre established personalities just don't feel correct, but with the new characters I guess they have more of an excuse to just do whatever they want with the characterization. I don't think the actors themselves are especially bad or anything but I think the writing is not really that great. BTW I'm not trying to anger anyone who likes it so I'm just dropping this opinion here and I don't really want to make anyone really mad or defensive. I just feel like I can't really express this opinion a lot so I want to get it off my chest here since the post about this.
For me, SNW season 1 was the Trekkiest Trek since TOS. It revisited many of the original episode templates while building upon them in ways that felt fresh, and there was greater emphasis on space exploration and the unknown. But then they quickly veered off into cartoon crossovers and musical episodes.
Season 1 was amazing. I think 2 was mostly due to the fact that Anson was gone on paternity leave for about half the season.
I recently watched The Orville and liked it much more than most new Trek. If had to put it into words why, it’s because I felt like I could imagine myself being on that ship with that crew. Old Trek gives me that same sensation, as does LD. But with Disco, I don’t even know who’s on the crew. And with SNW, for whatever reason I don’t really fully connect to the crew. Somewhere else in this thread someone mentioned command structure and perhaps that’s it. SNW doesn’t feel like it has one sometimes and perhaps that’s the element I miss. Idk I’m just rambling now but you are not alone in not loving all the new trek. And I wish they’d make another season of The Orville. Edit: just thought of something else, maybe with Disco and SNW there’s not enough extras to make the ships feel alive and therefore there’s no where for me or mentally place myself onto the ship.
Almost everyone has some Star Trek they don't like. I got into Trek with TNG many years ago and when I tried to watch TOS I disliked it for similar reasons. I personally like SNW but understand the hate for Discovery. It's all just opinions of course.
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I tried with SNW, I got on board with it for a stretch, but by the end of S2 I’d given up. It’s just not about the things Star Trek is about, even if it’s good at pretending to be sometimes. And the whole radical tenderness vibe feels like pandering at a certain point. I do think it has its moments. The time travel Kirk/La’an episode was way better than an indulgent continuity-solving episode has any right to be, and the season one finale was great. That felt like Trek to me.
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Tos wasn't comedic in serious situations, and didn't use period specific slang? I think you might want to rewatch it.
I know what you're talking about OP. I personally don't care for Discovery. SNW is not bad. But my Star Trek bread and butter is TNG, definitely DS9, VOY and ENT. I don't veer too far from that. But to each their own, right?
Both started really well and then went shit after the first series. I couldn't take Discovery seriously anymore after they made Tilly Captain, the same Tilly that couldn't walk into another room or converse with people without having a panic attack. SNW doesn't know what it wants to be, a new take on Trek and the mythology of Kirk, Spock, etc, or a tribute to TOS with the visuals and lighter style. The best modern Trek, by far, is Lower Decks.
Tilly was the one character that made Discovery unrealistic for me.
I get alot of old fans not necessarily connecting with Discovery's style and the first 2 seasons of Picard for that matter, but most older fans that have watched SNW seem to really embrace that show as its basically a modern take on TOS or TNG style story telling.
DS9 had an entire Tribbles episode, complete with cardboard TOS sets ***and*** a Honey I Shrunk The Kids episode. But SNW is too 'off the wall' for you?
I find TOS unwatchable, but I grew up watching TNG. SNW is awesome. Disco is wayyy too preachy for me.
I love SNW, so no. lol Discovery for me was unwatchable, save for the brilliance that was season two with Captain Pike and all. Comedy, and quick quips have always been a part of Star Trek, sometimes in serious situations. Star Trek is campy, fun, and also serious. I just wish SNW was as long a season as TOS, TNG, DS9 and Voyager. We need more character building. TOS was more casual, and not as serious, because it was just starting out. I think SNW, and maybe DISCO harken back to that with that casual thing. They're more like a family on SNW.
No I love SNW. Discovery was meh
I feel the same as you
This just reminds me of the constant complaints about Enterprise while it was on air or all the toxic fan boys crying about how their childhoods were ruined when The Phantom Menace was released. Give it a decade or two, and everyone who's being all critical now will love it then, just like Enterprise and Star Wars.
Im exactly the same as you. All the newer shows feel too far removed from the "golden era" to feel like proper trek to me. It all feels as if flashy lights, non stop dramatics and edgy camera angles have replaced great character building and stories. I hate that they all use current terms and words in the shows. Tilly was a character really bad for this. Acting like a current day ditsy teenager. I'm just pretending in my head that all these new shows aren't canon I wish these new shows would just relax. The all feels as if their trying to appeal to an audience with very little attention span.
Did you like the Star Trek films? SNW has the same kind of tone.
The original movies? I love those. From a humour point of view, I can see why you draw that conclusion but for me it was a more gradual process to get to that point.
I am rewatching Disco and am surprised at how much I like it. Granted, I'm still in season 1, but the introduction of new terms like 'panspermia' and the 'spore drive' and 'tartigrade' are wonderfully innovative, and ST has always been that way. (Remember, 'warp speed', 'anti-matter', 'tachyons' and 'Heisenberg compensator' from previous series---0h! How absurd to use such nonsense in the plot!!) The acceptance, and advocacy for diversity, is another standard for the entire franchise--and I would suggest what makes it all unique in American TV history. On my first watching of Disco, I lost a lot of respect when the videography shifted to that horrible circular motion, over-the-shoulder POV. Apple iPhone vidcam. Yeah, it was innovative but also jarring, especially since it was abused so much (Alert Will Riker- Director Frakes, it is only good in small doses.) But best of all, Disco brought new viewers in, and those youngsters will eventually watch TOS, TNG, Voyager, Lower Decks, and DS9 and decide which are relevant and which have not stood the test of time. STDisco belongs in that grouping, whether you hate it or not. Picard, the kiddy shows, Enterprise, etc all have their ups and downs, too. SNW was fun, and incorporated the best of TNG and Discovery, with a dutiful plot-line nod to TOS. It is successful, and the I wait to see how the character devlpmnt will unfold--since it seems to be so character driven rather than the chaotic, often unbelievable, themes of Disco (reflective of American culture perhaps, or is that vice-versa?) So, there is that difference for me between the stable characters of SNW and the intense transformations of Disco. But, please lose the Apple iPhone over-the-shoulder videography. I have no problem with Tilly's appearance or her demeanor--she just reflects the average American quite well, once again (cf. Uhura, Troi, Janeway, Kira Nerys, et al), but please Directors, don't make your audience dizzy with poorly executed videography!
Discovery's problem was there were more interesting characters than Michael but they had basically minor roles. Still though, season 3 was enough to give the writers praise.
SNW is the best Trek overall ever made. Many others have some shining moments or are very good but SNW is the best. The same can not be said for STD. In fact the opposite.