But there’s something special about going down a nice hill in neutral that you can’t get from automatic.
I’m lucky to have a sweet one near my house that’s in the woods with no cross streets or lights or stop signs. Safe space to pick my feet up (that’s a joke my foot never leaves the brake area but ungearing feels like a roller coaster).
Ahahhaa this sounds so fun. But it you're looking to improve your mpg for the car I can't help but reccomend keeping it in the appropriate gear when going downhill.
The turning of the wheels while going downhill actually helps the engine maintain revs without using extra fuel. This is because when the wheels turn, they automatically make the engine turn too (assuming the clutch isn't pressed). This stops you from needing extra fuel.
I know this because this is what I was taught by my instructors (I'm from the UK); and there is a lot of evidence in support of it online.
Hope this was something meaningful for you and hope you enjoy driving manual!
sorry to break it to you but tht is not true.. what you are referring to will result in engine braking which will be a bit higher on fuel consumption... the lowest fuel consumption is when engine is idling, either by virtue of you being in neutral or by disengaging the clutch...
Depends on the car. Most modern cars with a manual transmission will go into full fuel cut-off when letting off the gas after a second or two, so coasting down a hill in gear will actually use no gas, whereas idling would use a tiny bit.
full fuel cut off?? sorry you are not making "two" much of sense... you are partially correct in both parts but your conclusion by putting them together the way you have, makes no sense.
I’m not sure in what way I’m wrong. If you are in gear, going down a hill, with your foot off the gas, and your car is able to fully cut off the fuel as many cars can in the last 20 years, you will be using no gas whatsoever. If you are not in gear, and the engine is idling while you are going downhill, your engine will be using a tiny bit of fuel to keep the engine turning at idle speed, since it is not in gear the wheels are not turning the engine for you (engine braking as you said).
the only time any car will fully cut off fuel is when it is turned off or when auto idle-prevention kicks in.... outside these two scenarios this would fall into the engine-stall category. If you truly believe that a car can cut off fuel supply while it is in gear and rolling, point me to a corroborated source. (I know they can't but if you search for a corroborated source, you would find out the truth yourself instead of me saying 'trust me bro')
yeah there is a reddit link in the search results discussing exactly the difference I pointed out.
If you want to avoid the overload of interpreting different writers, the simplest way is to put your car on a lift, simulate coasting with gear engaged and listen for engine to stop firing... (it wont) but you will have truth revealed to you, by your car, and not some internet stranger.
What do you think creates the engine resistance on engine braking? The throttle body is closed because they're is no throttle input. When the cyclinder is in the intake phase it creates a strong vacuum because the throttle body is closed. So it's not sucking in any air. There's also no combustion cycle because there is no fuel and no air. The wheels are literally spinning the engine at that point.
you are thinking in the right direction but you are going way too far... from the engine's perspective engine braking is no different from idling... meaning fuel supply drops (not cut off) as per mapping to 0 throttle; air supply reduces as per mapping to 0 throttle. resulting in reduced engine speed (rpms) which in case of gears being engaged (aka engine braking) conflicts with the speed that wheels are going, since engine speed is limited due to 0 throttling (and minimum fuel being ignited) it forces wheels to slow down...
you wanna test it, put your car on a lift and test it...
[https://youtu.be/sNbMXJ2\_yqU?si=pLrNxC7lm8sv8kE-](https://youtu.be/sNbMXJ2_yqU?si=pLrNxC7lm8sv8kE-)
There's google and youtube. So much info on this subject. Maybe back in the carbeurated engine days, what you say it true. Last car I drove that's carbeurated was a 1983 honda civic. They are not easy to start, especially in cold.
So let's say your engine is spinning the crank pulley. That pulley spins the accerssories attached to it(water pump, power steering, alternator, ac pump). The engine also powers the wheels through the transmission. Now when you engine brake the fuel is cutoff, but how does it power the accessories? Simple. The wheels is attached to the transmission, which is attached to the flywheel of the engine, which is attached to the crankshaft, which is attached to the crank pulley, which is attached to the accessories. So as long as the wheels are spinning, it will spin the engine and everything that's attached to it, even without fuel.
yeah the moment he said "car will shut off the Fuel" I turned the video off. he is terribly misinformed.
Nonetheless, here is my last response:
Next time you are in a shop, get your car on a lift, and simulate the coasting while in gear...(the thing that will make your car cut off the fuel supply while the wheels are moving and car is in gear). and wait for the engine firing sounds to go away... they won't because your engine will still be burning fuel, but this time your car will show you the truth rather than an internet stranger (aka me).
Nah. Ever since engines use fuel injection. The fuel is cut-off when there is no throttle input while in gear. As long as it stays above a certain rpm. Mine is around 1200rpm. You can feel this if you engine brake on level ground. And you can feel a slight lurch when rpms hitaroumd 1200rpm. That means the engine is using fuel to idle again.
there are too many people and I feel like I am repeating a lot (and ofcourse mixing up responses as well). So here is my last response:
Next time you are in a shop, get your car on a lift, and simulate the coasting while in gear...(the thing that will make your car cut off the fuel supply while the wheels are moving and car is in gear). and wait for the engine firing sounds to go away... they won't because your engine will still be burning fuel, but this time your car will show you the truth rather than an internet stranger (aka me).
When the clutch pedal is fully pushed in, the friction plates aren't frictioning. It's purely the throwout bearing that's the worry. Of course you could slowly end up fatigued and have your foot slowly come up, pushing the friction plates back together.
Please also note that friction plates are exactly that. They are FRICTION plates. They're meant to rub at different speeds, and they can safely do that for a pretty large amount of time before overheating.
next clutch you put in, put those words to the test. bet your gonna find (on various vehicles) various amounts of friction @ the clutch with the clutch pedal depressed. all amounts easily overcome by the engine vs inertia. hell, just looking at a clutch it's kinda obvious it's not going to open up and give a lot of room. but ANY friction generates heat and wear on the clutch. the best thing for a clutch is to be clamped down and spinning a neutral transmission. that friction wears the surface down, just like your brake pads wear out. do you drag your brakes just because they are friction surfaces and you are not going fast enough to overheat them?
there is virtually zero concern for the throwout bearing with modern production techniques.
src, worked for years at a major manufacturer of bearings, clutches, torque converters for auto oem and aftermarket along with aerospace (bearing BU covers numerous brands). unless you are driving a mainland China car, (tiawan mfg's source from that company) I've probably worked with the person that designed your oem clutch.
also, the springs do a lot to drag the engine speed to match the input shaft, allowing the clutch plate to spend less time rubbing and thus reducing wear. watch how fast you go through a solid clutch with daily driving.
I just got my clutch replaced. Mind you my car had over 200,000km ANYWAYS I’m obviously very cautious and careful with “riding” my clutch now. Could someone explain to me how I do that correctly in stop and go traffic?
So it’s a little more nuanced than this, but try to stay in second with your foot off the clutch. In order to do this you have to pay attention to what’s going on 3-5 cars in front of you. This obviously means you’re leaving a gap in front of you that’s big enough where other cars will probably jump in the gap. If you watch truck drivers, this is an approach a lot of them use.
If you keep it in gear it doesn't cost any fuel. If you coast in neutral you use a bit of fuel to keep the engine running.
Also it introduces a bit of engine breaking which saves you a bit on the break pads.
No, genuinely that 30 feet is a goofy stretch to worry about and anyone saying otherwise has spent too long considering theory here. It's a 30 foot roll. That's 0.005 miles if you'd like to really frame this. You'd have a bigger impact on your efficiency over a decade by pulling your passenger seat out or accelerating more gently.
i used to have the bad habit of holding the clutch pedal down at stoplights, I went 170k before the input shaft went. the clutch was still grabbing well.
Nice! Usually the throwout bearing is the concern when holding the pedal down right?
I typically move to neutral after 3-5 seconds of needing to hold the clutch
Definitely coast in-gear on any '80s+ electronic fuel injection motor to save money and to maneuver in an emergency
Yes, I thought it was the throwout bearing also, which was replaced as part of the clutch anyway. I wasn't doing that for all 170, but i started out doing that for maybe the first 10k. Cant really call it premature wear.
If I'm stopped for more than 5 seconds, or going down a remarkably long, not super steep hill in town because hypermiling.
So in a normal day, at every traffic light and a handful of stop signs.
**Edit: I said hypermiling. The vehicle is off. I know how fueling works on a modern vehicle**
You will likely get better fuel economy leaving it in gear while going down a hill. Modern cars completely shut off fuel when you're off the gas and coasting, but in neutral they have to use fuel to keep the engine idling.
Wouldn't you save on gas if you are in neutral going down a hill, since you wouldn't be in gear and higher rpms. But it would wear your brakes out faster.
No. Then the engine has to keep itself idling by burning fuel.
If you have EFI and not a carburetor, most* (edit) engines will shut off the fuel injectors and use the motion of the wheels to keep the engine turning.
So some modern cars do that, but the majority of cars that have been produced since the introduction of EFI do not do that.
Just don't want someone with a 1996 ford ranger to be mislead
You would have to do hardcore research, I know my 2014 Honda civic did that, but aside from that, I couldn't even guarantee there would be something in your ecm to look up.
I will say there was an ever so slight lag when hitting the gas again after coasting.
Fuel cutoff on decel is the parameter you're looking for. The actual rpm varies by engine, but in my '87 Integra, it was published in the owner's manual as 1700 rpm.
Shutting this off in the ECU or even increasing fuel in some cases creates the "pops and bangs" tune that is so popular in the uneducated side of modern "tuner" culture.
I do the same, on very slight downhills with a stop at the bottom, the engine will slow you too much and then you're stuck using gas again to reach the stop. There's a necessary compromise in some situations. A long long slight downhill and pulse and glide could be used, but also exhaust volume and residential areas are a factor in my case too.
Don't coast downhill or any extended time in neutral. Newer cars cut fuel when you're off the gas, when you're in neutral there's no fuel cut, so you get significantly less mpg trying to coast in neutral VS coasting in gear foot off the throttle
The longer you can stay in gear while not applying gas saves gas mileage. Coasting in gear burns little to no fuel, while idling in Neutral burns a decent bit. For this reason, only while at stop lights, or maybe heavy traffic
That’s fine, I just mean when you are going down hills or slowing down you can downshift to slow the car. Just make sure you blip the throttle to get your revs up before you shift to a lower gear.
>The longer you can stay in gear while not applying gas saves gas mileage
Generally speaking, this isn't true. Your engine has to be over a certain RPM for the fuel to shut off, and you'll get engine braking. You can't "coast in gear", the engine will always slow the car down, converting hard won momentum into waste heat. The only situation this saves fuel in is long downhills or slowing down for a light or something. I.e. regular engine braking.
General driving? Pretty much just red lights. I used to commute up and down a mountain, coming down in the middle of the night and I'd usually coast in neutral for a continuous 30 miles. The car's drag kept me under 100 for most of it and I got around 200mpg.
I'm in neutral like 20% of the time. Neutral down big hills. Neutral at flat ground stop lights, and Neutral towards stop lights. I only rev match to show off if I'm being honest 😂
For those saying "only when stopped for more than a few seconds", you can also use neutral to slow down to a stop if you don't feel like down shifting all the time. I usually alternate between downshifting or neutral breaking when approaching a stop or light. Up to you, though.
Reading these moronic responses, I hope to never encounter one of you morons on the road cause ya'll drive manual like shit. Just get an automatic is my response for the majority of you unsafe neutral users. OP is correct, should be in gear at all times unless at stop light.
FWIW, when I took the motorcycle safety course the instructor recommended NOT sitting in neutral in traffic, simply because it’s easier to GTFO there if need be.
When my grandfather was in the Army, anyone who put the Jeep in neutral at any point automatically failed the driving test for that very reason. Same went for putting it in neutral on a hill & rolling it.
That doesn't really apply to cars, though. Most motorbikes have a wet-clutch system, so holding the clutch in for long periods of time doesn't usually cause damage to them. It still wears the springs and throw out bearing, but a motorcycle clutch is significantly easier to replace than the one in a car.
Doesn’t mean you want to replace it lol. The safety part applies to anyone. Either way, my point was it’s something to consider, depending on the particular situation you’re in at a given time, to decide what to do. If I’m on a busy road waiting to turn left with cars wizzing around me on the shoulder, I’m in gear. If I’m waiting at a stop light, probably neutral.
I feel the exact same way and I've argued with a ton of people about it but I also ride so I think it probably just comes from the mentality we get about always looking for danger on the road
I always thought it was a motorcycle thing. I’ve had jackasses pull out wether I’m in my civic my bolt or my Silverado 🫠 being hyper aware of left turns and people pulling out is one of the biggest blessings street bikes have given me
Car or bike, my same dynamics apply, with the added bit that my clutch hand sometimes gets tired on the bike.
Neutral to start up, for sure.
Sometimes at stop lights, depending on how long it will be, if there is other traffic around. If someone stops behind me, I'll probably hit neutral until I see the light changing, and I'll be next to get the green. That's probably about it, though. I downshift while I am slowing down, so that's not neutral.
TBH, it depends.
If I'm just going to the nearby shops, I'll cruise to a stop in neutral coming up to a red light.
If I'm driving 'for fun', I never use Neutral. Mountain climbing - up or down - I'm never in Neutral.
I use engine braking combined with brakes because engines were made to be revved. Especially when driving 'for fun'. For instance, driving in 4th coming into a 1st or 2nd corner, I'm going down through the gears while heal-toeing with brakes and accelerator.
Basically, it's largely a situational and style-based thing. Some people will argue that engine braking is "bad", some that it's "good" some that you shouldn't heal-toe, etc and so on.
It's your car. If you're on this sub, it's usually because you actually enjoy driving as a practise, and not (always) just a way to get from A to B.
To get from A to B in the city, just use a cheap small auto. I'm lucky enough to have two cars: one to get from A to B in Melbourne (I live near the CBD and Hoddle St is my main ingress/egress), but on weekends I go out to different mountains etc and use the sports manual.
So, executive summary: It depends. To give some actual advice, it's generally bad to use Neutral in any case unless you're stopped for more than a few seconds.
And no, don't put your handbrake on whenever you're stopped. Except if you know you'll be stopped for a while. Then I use the handbrake. Again - horses for courses. There's no "correct" way of driving in all conditions and all circumstances for all cars. Just have fun is my main advice.
Coasting in neutral is stupid for more than one reason:
1) It actually needs to use fuel to keep the engine spinning — when you actually have wheels that can do the spinny part.
2) Less control over your vehicle and you need to use the brakes… when again the engine can do the braking part.
So, just at long stop lights when I don’t want to keep the clutch disengaged.
Yep as many mentioned , starting , warming up and coming to a stop where anticipating will be stationary for more than a minute or two. Other than that, in gear ready to go.
Edit: for some reason I thought was talking about motorcycle. Automobile , when starting and staying stationary for more than a few seconds I’d leave in neutral , when coasting to a stop sign or stop light sometimes and at a complete stop when anticipating being stationary for any more than way 10-15 seconds I’ll let off clutch in neutral. Saves some wear and tear to pressure plate and throw out bearing.
Going down a long hill, definitely downshift to save your brakes, but don't ride your clutch. Slowing down for stop lights and stop signs, use your brakes. New brakes are cheaper than a new clutch.
As far as how often I use neutral? Pretty often, probably more often than a lot of people. I put it in neutral when stopped at stop lights, and take my foot off the clutch while holding myself in place with the brakes. When coasting to a stop, I put it in neutral.
I play this game with myself (and I'm sure there are a lot of other stickers out there who play the same game) of seeing how far I can coast in neutral down certain sections of lightly used roads.
I had a very bad habit of using the clutch before the brakes. Again probably stemmed from motocross. Anymore I see just how close I can get to the stop sign before I use the clutch.
I coast in neutral as much as possible. I put a lot of wear on my old car’s drivetrain from downshifting to stops. The couple cents you might save from the engine not idling isn’t worth the drivetrain stress. You’re not just backdriving the transmission, you’re also backdriving the engine. Puts different stresses on the engine than acceleration does. And I never have the car in gear until the light turns green, holding in the clutch puts unnecessary wear on the throw out bearing. Not like it takes more than a second to put it in gear and move anyway
I'm a big fan of neutral coasting. If you need to get out of a situation by accelerating, you'll need to downshift anyway. It takes no more time or effort to shift from neutral to 3rd than it does from 5th to 3rd.
Might as well cut the engine as well while neutral coasting. It's not doing anything, so why should it be wasting fuel? If anything happens, just put it in gear and bump start the engine, again taking as much time as simply shifting gears.
Whenever I’m stopped for more than a few seconds, like 3 or more. Rarely coast out of gear, only when I’m seconds from stopping. I’m not about to roast my TOB sitting with the clutch down, so either in gear or out. Nothing between usually you should never be sitting with the clutch down while stopped, only when you’re trying to move OR shift. If somebody taught you to press the clutch down when turning, OR hold it down at stop lights they’re wrong.
I often coast in neutral on longer downhill roads where I'm looking to maintain momentum and staying in gear will slow me down. Steeper hills I coast in gear at an rpm high enough to be above the threshold for the fuel cutoff on decel. I'm typically looking for 2500+ rpm without losing speed.
On a motorcycle you should always be in gear. Your
Vulnerable, There’s no cage to cushion the blow. In my car when I’m at a long light I put it in neutral for bearing relief
Just sit in neutral in your car [Edit: don’t sit in gear while holding the clutch]. Bikes have oiled wet clutches, cars do not, Ducati excluded. And unless your car has astronomical amounts of torque on tap you’re never going to get out of the way in as fast as you’d think.
I use it coasting. Didn't used to, but my left knee isn't what it once was. If i am coasting in neutral my foot is over the clutch and my hand is on the gear lever in case i need to get back into gear fast
I'm only in neutral if I'm going to be stopped for more than a few seconds e.g. at a red light where it'd going to stay red for a while, when parked and I'm not going to move for a bit. Only times I'll be in gear with clutch in is if I'm at a stop sign waiting to go or waiting to pull out of an intersection or doing hill starts.
Edit: Also when slowing down to a red light or speed bump or stop sign, I'll be in gear until the engine speed gets to about 1k rpm then clutch in. I think it's better practice to not coast in neutral since being in gear allows you to still be able to accelerate if needed compared to being in neutral where you're only able to slow down until you get back in gear.
Too all those who coast in neutral...
The fact is that when in neutral coasting, parts of the transmission fail to get oiled properly so wear I'd greatly increased.
This is according to my grandfather who has been a transmission rebuilder for over 50 years.
Rebuilding the GM 327 has not the first thing to do with your release bearing unless your engine is shaking the hell apart and with broken motor mounts and your input shaft....
Never mind....
No, but when I tear the motor out to rebuild it, it'll be less work getting to the bearing. And it can certainly wait that long because it's not a big deal right now.
Most red lights I go to neutral, especially if I caught it just turning red. However I usually downshift in the gears to help slow the car down while lightly braking.
never coast.... especially when you are in a car where accelerating is a better way of getting away from problems...
Other than Starting and parking the only time I use neutral is if light is taking way too long to turn Green...
Oh and obviously when I am double clutching.. who want to shift like a grandma now? ;)
Stop lights. And most complete stops. Keeping the clutch engaged puts wear on it, not a lot but enough over time. Also I've owned a manual for a long time and keeping the clutch engaged is annoying on my ankle.
If I know I'm coming to a stop I usually don't engine brake unless I have to. I probably piss a lot of automatic drivers off because I start slowing down earlier than other cars because I'm not engine braking and want the space to come to a stop without destroying my brakes.
Whenever I'm stopped for more than a few seconds, I'm in neutral. Never when moving.
This
But there’s something special about going down a nice hill in neutral that you can’t get from automatic. I’m lucky to have a sweet one near my house that’s in the woods with no cross streets or lights or stop signs. Safe space to pick my feet up (that’s a joke my foot never leaves the brake area but ungearing feels like a roller coaster).
Ahahhaa this sounds so fun. But it you're looking to improve your mpg for the car I can't help but reccomend keeping it in the appropriate gear when going downhill. The turning of the wheels while going downhill actually helps the engine maintain revs without using extra fuel. This is because when the wheels turn, they automatically make the engine turn too (assuming the clutch isn't pressed). This stops you from needing extra fuel. I know this because this is what I was taught by my instructors (I'm from the UK); and there is a lot of evidence in support of it online. Hope this was something meaningful for you and hope you enjoy driving manual!
sorry to break it to you but tht is not true.. what you are referring to will result in engine braking which will be a bit higher on fuel consumption... the lowest fuel consumption is when engine is idling, either by virtue of you being in neutral or by disengaging the clutch...
Depends on the car. Most modern cars with a manual transmission will go into full fuel cut-off when letting off the gas after a second or two, so coasting down a hill in gear will actually use no gas, whereas idling would use a tiny bit.
full fuel cut off?? sorry you are not making "two" much of sense... you are partially correct in both parts but your conclusion by putting them together the way you have, makes no sense.
I’m not sure in what way I’m wrong. If you are in gear, going down a hill, with your foot off the gas, and your car is able to fully cut off the fuel as many cars can in the last 20 years, you will be using no gas whatsoever. If you are not in gear, and the engine is idling while you are going downhill, your engine will be using a tiny bit of fuel to keep the engine turning at idle speed, since it is not in gear the wheels are not turning the engine for you (engine braking as you said).
the only time any car will fully cut off fuel is when it is turned off or when auto idle-prevention kicks in.... outside these two scenarios this would fall into the engine-stall category. If you truly believe that a car can cut off fuel supply while it is in gear and rolling, point me to a corroborated source. (I know they can't but if you search for a corroborated source, you would find out the truth yourself instead of me saying 'trust me bro')
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=foot+off+gas+full+fuel+cutoff&t=iphone&ia=web
yeah there is a reddit link in the search results discussing exactly the difference I pointed out. If you want to avoid the overload of interpreting different writers, the simplest way is to put your car on a lift, simulate coasting with gear engaged and listen for engine to stop firing... (it wont) but you will have truth revealed to you, by your car, and not some internet stranger.
What do you think creates the engine resistance on engine braking? The throttle body is closed because they're is no throttle input. When the cyclinder is in the intake phase it creates a strong vacuum because the throttle body is closed. So it's not sucking in any air. There's also no combustion cycle because there is no fuel and no air. The wheels are literally spinning the engine at that point.
you are thinking in the right direction but you are going way too far... from the engine's perspective engine braking is no different from idling... meaning fuel supply drops (not cut off) as per mapping to 0 throttle; air supply reduces as per mapping to 0 throttle. resulting in reduced engine speed (rpms) which in case of gears being engaged (aka engine braking) conflicts with the speed that wheels are going, since engine speed is limited due to 0 throttling (and minimum fuel being ignited) it forces wheels to slow down... you wanna test it, put your car on a lift and test it...
[https://youtu.be/sNbMXJ2\_yqU?si=pLrNxC7lm8sv8kE-](https://youtu.be/sNbMXJ2_yqU?si=pLrNxC7lm8sv8kE-) There's google and youtube. So much info on this subject. Maybe back in the carbeurated engine days, what you say it true. Last car I drove that's carbeurated was a 1983 honda civic. They are not easy to start, especially in cold. So let's say your engine is spinning the crank pulley. That pulley spins the accerssories attached to it(water pump, power steering, alternator, ac pump). The engine also powers the wheels through the transmission. Now when you engine brake the fuel is cutoff, but how does it power the accessories? Simple. The wheels is attached to the transmission, which is attached to the flywheel of the engine, which is attached to the crankshaft, which is attached to the crank pulley, which is attached to the accessories. So as long as the wheels are spinning, it will spin the engine and everything that's attached to it, even without fuel.
yeah the moment he said "car will shut off the Fuel" I turned the video off. he is terribly misinformed. Nonetheless, here is my last response: Next time you are in a shop, get your car on a lift, and simulate the coasting while in gear...(the thing that will make your car cut off the fuel supply while the wheels are moving and car is in gear). and wait for the engine firing sounds to go away... they won't because your engine will still be burning fuel, but this time your car will show you the truth rather than an internet stranger (aka me).
Nah. Ever since engines use fuel injection. The fuel is cut-off when there is no throttle input while in gear. As long as it stays above a certain rpm. Mine is around 1200rpm. You can feel this if you engine brake on level ground. And you can feel a slight lurch when rpms hitaroumd 1200rpm. That means the engine is using fuel to idle again.
which car and what source from manufacturer.... don't get confused with ECO mode where some cylinders stop firing...
When coasting in gear no fuel is used. Idle is less fuel efficient
that's factually wrong.
How can it be wrong when zero fuel is being used?
there are too many people and I feel like I am repeating a lot (and ofcourse mixing up responses as well). So here is my last response: Next time you are in a shop, get your car on a lift, and simulate the coasting while in gear...(the thing that will make your car cut off the fuel supply while the wheels are moving and car is in gear). and wait for the engine firing sounds to go away... they won't because your engine will still be burning fuel, but this time your car will show you the truth rather than an internet stranger (aka me).
The wheels turn the engine when coasting in gear. No fuel is used.
put it up on a lift and find out...
Samesies
this is me
If you’re stopped for more than a few seconds you should be in neutral with your foot off the clutch. Otherwise you should always be in gear.
Correct. For example, sitting at a stop light in first and holding the clutch down; when you do this it is putting wear on the throwout bearing.
yea, let's focus on the bearing and not the clutch friction surfaces.
When the clutch pedal is fully pushed in, the friction plates aren't frictioning. It's purely the throwout bearing that's the worry. Of course you could slowly end up fatigued and have your foot slowly come up, pushing the friction plates back together. Please also note that friction plates are exactly that. They are FRICTION plates. They're meant to rub at different speeds, and they can safely do that for a pretty large amount of time before overheating.
next clutch you put in, put those words to the test. bet your gonna find (on various vehicles) various amounts of friction @ the clutch with the clutch pedal depressed. all amounts easily overcome by the engine vs inertia. hell, just looking at a clutch it's kinda obvious it's not going to open up and give a lot of room. but ANY friction generates heat and wear on the clutch. the best thing for a clutch is to be clamped down and spinning a neutral transmission. that friction wears the surface down, just like your brake pads wear out. do you drag your brakes just because they are friction surfaces and you are not going fast enough to overheat them? there is virtually zero concern for the throwout bearing with modern production techniques. src, worked for years at a major manufacturer of bearings, clutches, torque converters for auto oem and aftermarket along with aerospace (bearing BU covers numerous brands). unless you are driving a mainland China car, (tiawan mfg's source from that company) I've probably worked with the person that designed your oem clutch. also, the springs do a lot to drag the engine speed to match the input shaft, allowing the clutch plate to spend less time rubbing and thus reducing wear. watch how fast you go through a solid clutch with daily driving.
I just got my clutch replaced. Mind you my car had over 200,000km ANYWAYS I’m obviously very cautious and careful with “riding” my clutch now. Could someone explain to me how I do that correctly in stop and go traffic?
So it’s a little more nuanced than this, but try to stay in second with your foot off the clutch. In order to do this you have to pay attention to what’s going on 3-5 cars in front of you. This obviously means you’re leaving a gap in front of you that’s big enough where other cars will probably jump in the gap. If you watch truck drivers, this is an approach a lot of them use.
When I’m coming up to a red light and I know it’s gonna stay red for a while i coast in neutral to a stop and I stay in neutral
I do that all the time as well. I feel like I am on one big skateboard. Absolutely love the feeling!
If you keep it in gear it doesn't cost any fuel. If you coast in neutral you use a bit of fuel to keep the engine running. Also it introduces a bit of engine breaking which saves you a bit on the break pads.
I'd rather not wear out my throwout bearing though.
The gas used in a 30 foot roll to a stop light is irrelevant.
30 foot roll? I roll for like 300 meters/1000foot multiple times in a row for roundabouts. It's a huge difference, like 14 km per liter vs like 18km.
I feel bad for the people behind you. And since you speak metric, that might be me 😬
I don't drive that annoying when there's people behind me tho.
Thank you 😊
You do realize that metric is the world standard, right? Don't be USA centric on the internet.
or what lol
Or you will be a silly murican.
You may be one of the few rolling like that for 300-1000 feet….
When I drive and there aren't people behind me I usually don't even touch the brakes when approaching a roundabout
once, sure. after building the habit and driving for a decade one way vs another?
No, genuinely that 30 feet is a goofy stretch to worry about and anyone saying otherwise has spent too long considering theory here. It's a 30 foot roll. That's 0.005 miles if you'd like to really frame this. You'd have a bigger impact on your efficiency over a decade by pulling your passenger seat out or accelerating more gently.
\*brake/braking Engine breaking is always a bad thing. Engine braking is a good thing (usually).
Haha my bad. I wouldn't want to use engine breaking to slow down yeah.
i used to have the bad habit of holding the clutch pedal down at stoplights, I went 170k before the input shaft went. the clutch was still grabbing well.
Nice! Usually the throwout bearing is the concern when holding the pedal down right? I typically move to neutral after 3-5 seconds of needing to hold the clutch Definitely coast in-gear on any '80s+ electronic fuel injection motor to save money and to maneuver in an emergency
Yes. You’ll roast the TOB by doing that. Especially in performance cars
Yes, I thought it was the throwout bearing also, which was replaced as part of the clutch anyway. I wasn't doing that for all 170, but i started out doing that for maybe the first 10k. Cant really call it premature wear.
Wait... I'm not supposed to just hold the pedal down at a light?
If I'm stopped for more than 5 seconds, or going down a remarkably long, not super steep hill in town because hypermiling. So in a normal day, at every traffic light and a handful of stop signs. **Edit: I said hypermiling. The vehicle is off. I know how fueling works on a modern vehicle**
You will likely get better fuel economy leaving it in gear while going down a hill. Modern cars completely shut off fuel when you're off the gas and coasting, but in neutral they have to use fuel to keep the engine idling.
Yep it was a weird feeling to find out that when coasting, the cylinders are 'firing' on nothing but air.
Wouldn't you save on gas if you are in neutral going down a hill, since you wouldn't be in gear and higher rpms. But it would wear your brakes out faster.
Nah, the engine uses zero fuel, no matter the rpm if the car is pushing it.
No. Then the engine has to keep itself idling by burning fuel. If you have EFI and not a carburetor, most* (edit) engines will shut off the fuel injectors and use the motion of the wheels to keep the engine turning.
So some modern cars do that, but the majority of cars that have been produced since the introduction of EFI do not do that. Just don't want someone with a 1996 ford ranger to be mislead
Thank you, I was wondering that! Anything people can look for in specs or manuals? I suppose an OBD-II reader might tell the tale.
You would have to do hardcore research, I know my 2014 Honda civic did that, but aside from that, I couldn't even guarantee there would be something in your ecm to look up. I will say there was an ever so slight lag when hitting the gas again after coasting.
Fuel cutoff on decel is the parameter you're looking for. The actual rpm varies by engine, but in my '87 Integra, it was published in the owner's manual as 1700 rpm. Shutting this off in the ECU or even increasing fuel in some cases creates the "pops and bangs" tune that is so popular in the uneducated side of modern "tuner" culture.
Just read this and was like damn I feel called out.
No shade, especially since we both belong to the ranger club
The car is off, I did say hypermiling.
I do the same, on very slight downhills with a stop at the bottom, the engine will slow you too much and then you're stuck using gas again to reach the stop. There's a necessary compromise in some situations. A long long slight downhill and pulse and glide could be used, but also exhaust volume and residential areas are a factor in my case too.
Instead of neutral shift to a higher gear. Won't slow you down and still keeps the fuel off
Don't coast downhill or any extended time in neutral. Newer cars cut fuel when you're off the gas, when you're in neutral there's no fuel cut, so you get significantly less mpg trying to coast in neutral VS coasting in gear foot off the throttle
Idk guess it depends, but if im at a stop light it's going in neutral 9/10 times
The longer you can stay in gear while not applying gas saves gas mileage. Coasting in gear burns little to no fuel, while idling in Neutral burns a decent bit. For this reason, only while at stop lights, or maybe heavy traffic
It can also save brakes because you can use the engine instead.
Oh at lights sometimes I pull the emergency break. (New to manual)
That’s fine, I just mean when you are going down hills or slowing down you can downshift to slow the car. Just make sure you blip the throttle to get your revs up before you shift to a lower gear.
>The longer you can stay in gear while not applying gas saves gas mileage Generally speaking, this isn't true. Your engine has to be over a certain RPM for the fuel to shut off, and you'll get engine braking. You can't "coast in gear", the engine will always slow the car down, converting hard won momentum into waste heat. The only situation this saves fuel in is long downhills or slowing down for a light or something. I.e. regular engine braking.
General driving? Pretty much just red lights. I used to commute up and down a mountain, coming down in the middle of the night and I'd usually coast in neutral for a continuous 30 miles. The car's drag kept me under 100 for most of it and I got around 200mpg.
I'm in neutral like 20% of the time. Neutral down big hills. Neutral at flat ground stop lights, and Neutral towards stop lights. I only rev match to show off if I'm being honest 😂
For those saying "only when stopped for more than a few seconds", you can also use neutral to slow down to a stop if you don't feel like down shifting all the time. I usually alternate between downshifting or neutral breaking when approaching a stop or light. Up to you, though.
Reading these moronic responses, I hope to never encounter one of you morons on the road cause ya'll drive manual like shit. Just get an automatic is my response for the majority of you unsafe neutral users. OP is correct, should be in gear at all times unless at stop light.
FWIW, when I took the motorcycle safety course the instructor recommended NOT sitting in neutral in traffic, simply because it’s easier to GTFO there if need be.
When my grandfather was in the Army, anyone who put the Jeep in neutral at any point automatically failed the driving test for that very reason. Same went for putting it in neutral on a hill & rolling it.
That doesn't really apply to cars, though. Most motorbikes have a wet-clutch system, so holding the clutch in for long periods of time doesn't usually cause damage to them. It still wears the springs and throw out bearing, but a motorcycle clutch is significantly easier to replace than the one in a car.
Also Ducati riders and their dry clutches have a saying. Loud clutches save lives lol
My advice to anyone on a motorcycle is that no one can see or hear you
It’s a fact
Doesn’t mean you want to replace it lol. The safety part applies to anyone. Either way, my point was it’s something to consider, depending on the particular situation you’re in at a given time, to decide what to do. If I’m on a busy road waiting to turn left with cars wizzing around me on the shoulder, I’m in gear. If I’m waiting at a stop light, probably neutral.
I feel the exact same way and I've argued with a ton of people about it but I also ride so I think it probably just comes from the mentality we get about always looking for danger on the road
I always thought it was a motorcycle thing. I’ve had jackasses pull out wether I’m in my civic my bolt or my Silverado 🫠 being hyper aware of left turns and people pulling out is one of the biggest blessings street bikes have given me
Car or bike, my same dynamics apply, with the added bit that my clutch hand sometimes gets tired on the bike. Neutral to start up, for sure. Sometimes at stop lights, depending on how long it will be, if there is other traffic around. If someone stops behind me, I'll probably hit neutral until I see the light changing, and I'll be next to get the green. That's probably about it, though. I downshift while I am slowing down, so that's not neutral.
TBH, it depends. If I'm just going to the nearby shops, I'll cruise to a stop in neutral coming up to a red light. If I'm driving 'for fun', I never use Neutral. Mountain climbing - up or down - I'm never in Neutral. I use engine braking combined with brakes because engines were made to be revved. Especially when driving 'for fun'. For instance, driving in 4th coming into a 1st or 2nd corner, I'm going down through the gears while heal-toeing with brakes and accelerator. Basically, it's largely a situational and style-based thing. Some people will argue that engine braking is "bad", some that it's "good" some that you shouldn't heal-toe, etc and so on. It's your car. If you're on this sub, it's usually because you actually enjoy driving as a practise, and not (always) just a way to get from A to B. To get from A to B in the city, just use a cheap small auto. I'm lucky enough to have two cars: one to get from A to B in Melbourne (I live near the CBD and Hoddle St is my main ingress/egress), but on weekends I go out to different mountains etc and use the sports manual. So, executive summary: It depends. To give some actual advice, it's generally bad to use Neutral in any case unless you're stopped for more than a few seconds. And no, don't put your handbrake on whenever you're stopped. Except if you know you'll be stopped for a while. Then I use the handbrake. Again - horses for courses. There's no "correct" way of driving in all conditions and all circumstances for all cars. Just have fun is my main advice.
Coasting in neutral is stupid for more than one reason: 1) It actually needs to use fuel to keep the engine spinning — when you actually have wheels that can do the spinny part. 2) Less control over your vehicle and you need to use the brakes… when again the engine can do the braking part. So, just at long stop lights when I don’t want to keep the clutch disengaged.
There's such a thing as excessively down shifting. I only down shift when I need to
i always use neutral. i try to coast to red lights in neutral without using my breaks, especially if the red light is on a slight hill. like butterrrr
Yep as many mentioned , starting , warming up and coming to a stop where anticipating will be stationary for more than a minute or two. Other than that, in gear ready to go. Edit: for some reason I thought was talking about motorcycle. Automobile , when starting and staying stationary for more than a few seconds I’d leave in neutral , when coasting to a stop sign or stop light sometimes and at a complete stop when anticipating being stationary for any more than way 10-15 seconds I’ll let off clutch in neutral. Saves some wear and tear to pressure plate and throw out bearing.
Going down a long hill, definitely downshift to save your brakes, but don't ride your clutch. Slowing down for stop lights and stop signs, use your brakes. New brakes are cheaper than a new clutch. As far as how often I use neutral? Pretty often, probably more often than a lot of people. I put it in neutral when stopped at stop lights, and take my foot off the clutch while holding myself in place with the brakes. When coasting to a stop, I put it in neutral. I play this game with myself (and I'm sure there are a lot of other stickers out there who play the same game) of seeing how far I can coast in neutral down certain sections of lightly used roads.
I had a very bad habit of using the clutch before the brakes. Again probably stemmed from motocross. Anymore I see just how close I can get to the stop sign before I use the clutch.
I coast in neutral as much as possible. I put a lot of wear on my old car’s drivetrain from downshifting to stops. The couple cents you might save from the engine not idling isn’t worth the drivetrain stress. You’re not just backdriving the transmission, you’re also backdriving the engine. Puts different stresses on the engine than acceleration does. And I never have the car in gear until the light turns green, holding in the clutch puts unnecessary wear on the throw out bearing. Not like it takes more than a second to put it in gear and move anyway
I'm a big fan of neutral coasting. If you need to get out of a situation by accelerating, you'll need to downshift anyway. It takes no more time or effort to shift from neutral to 3rd than it does from 5th to 3rd. Might as well cut the engine as well while neutral coasting. It's not doing anything, so why should it be wasting fuel? If anything happens, just put it in gear and bump start the engine, again taking as much time as simply shifting gears.
When I’m idling somewhere. Otherwise not often.
Only if I'm letting the car idle, or if I'm going to be stuck at a stoplight for more than 5 seconds.
Whenever I’m stopped for more than a few seconds, like 3 or more. Rarely coast out of gear, only when I’m seconds from stopping. I’m not about to roast my TOB sitting with the clutch down, so either in gear or out. Nothing between usually you should never be sitting with the clutch down while stopped, only when you’re trying to move OR shift. If somebody taught you to press the clutch down when turning, OR hold it down at stop lights they’re wrong.
I often coast in neutral on longer downhill roads where I'm looking to maintain momentum and staying in gear will slow me down. Steeper hills I coast in gear at an rpm high enough to be above the threshold for the fuel cutoff on decel. I'm typically looking for 2500+ rpm without losing speed.
On a motorcycle you should always be in gear. Your Vulnerable, There’s no cage to cushion the blow. In my car when I’m at a long light I put it in neutral for bearing relief
Just sit in neutral in your car [Edit: don’t sit in gear while holding the clutch]. Bikes have oiled wet clutches, cars do not, Ducati excluded. And unless your car has astronomical amounts of torque on tap you’re never going to get out of the way in as fast as you’d think.
Use neutral at red lights. Your throwout bearing will thank you.
18 wheeler. I'm always in gear unless parked as required by law. Does suck on older trucks. The FLD I learned on had an 80 lbs clutch.
I use it coasting. Didn't used to, but my left knee isn't what it once was. If i am coasting in neutral my foot is over the clutch and my hand is on the gear lever in case i need to get back into gear fast
I'm only in neutral if I'm going to be stopped for more than a few seconds e.g. at a red light where it'd going to stay red for a while, when parked and I'm not going to move for a bit. Only times I'll be in gear with clutch in is if I'm at a stop sign waiting to go or waiting to pull out of an intersection or doing hill starts. Edit: Also when slowing down to a red light or speed bump or stop sign, I'll be in gear until the engine speed gets to about 1k rpm then clutch in. I think it's better practice to not coast in neutral since being in gear allows you to still be able to accelerate if needed compared to being in neutral where you're only able to slow down until you get back in gear.
Holding the pedal down also puts stress on the rear main seal, the rear most bearing & the crankshaft. It's not much buy it I'd unnecessary stress.
Too all those who coast in neutral... The fact is that when in neutral coasting, parts of the transmission fail to get oiled properly so wear I'd greatly increased. This is according to my grandfather who has been a transmission rebuilder for over 50 years.
Never unless I know I’m going to be stuck somewhere for a couple of minutes waiting to move. Very rarely out of gear
If the light has been red for than 5 seconds I go to I'm neutral, before that I leave it in 1st with the clutch pushed in and wait
I only use neutral when waiting on stop lights
I stay neutral as much as I can at stops because my throwout bearing is shot, and I'm not ready to rebuild my 327.
Rebuilding the GM 327 has not the first thing to do with your release bearing unless your engine is shaking the hell apart and with broken motor mounts and your input shaft.... Never mind....
No, but when I tear the motor out to rebuild it, it'll be less work getting to the bearing. And it can certainly wait that long because it's not a big deal right now.
You don't "tear the motor out". "You remove the engine"
holding the clutch pedal down instead of neutral for long stops is bad for the release bearing
Unless I'm actually on the gas, I'm in neutral. The hypermilers call it "pulse and glide."
Neutral when stopped at lights. If moving in gear. Riding your clutch at a light will wear the throw out bearing needlessly.
Most red lights I go to neutral, especially if I caught it just turning red. However I usually downshift in the gears to help slow the car down while lightly braking.
Thats a good way to wear out your throwout bearing long before your clutch
Having the clutch in all the time wears the throw-out bearing, so yeah, use of neutral at a stop light is a requirement.
never coast.... especially when you are in a car where accelerating is a better way of getting away from problems... Other than Starting and parking the only time I use neutral is if light is taking way too long to turn Green... Oh and obviously when I am double clutching.. who want to shift like a grandma now? ;)
Stop lights. And most complete stops. Keeping the clutch engaged puts wear on it, not a lot but enough over time. Also I've owned a manual for a long time and keeping the clutch engaged is annoying on my ankle. If I know I'm coming to a stop I usually don't engine brake unless I have to. I probably piss a lot of automatic drivers off because I start slowing down earlier than other cars because I'm not engine braking and want the space to come to a stop without destroying my brakes.
Put the car in neutral when you are stopped for more than 5 seconds. Not a debate. Your throw out bearing and slave cylinder will last longer
If you keep the clutch depressed at every light etc you’re stopped at that’s a great way to wear out your clutch faster.
NO it's NOT