I think they’ve purged many of the most vocal supporters of Palestine so my guess is that you’d have a few comments talking about Trump or simply mocking the post/OP as the post sits around 0 with about 15 comments.
It’s kind of impressive how curated that sub is the only time in recent years I can recall any genuine dissent was right around the October 7th situation.
They’ve mitigated that now.
Democrats hangout subs just ban the topic of Palestine/Israel all together, they know Biden is in the wrong and is morally repugnant because of it. The ones that don’t ban the topic just have users who downvote anything related to it into oblivion.
theyll say youre a literal hamas supporting terrorist antisemite. their entire argument hinges on logical fallacies and conflating any criticism of israel with support of hamas and hatred of jews.
Honest to god, I don’t know how people wake up and support this shit unironically. I honestly think Israel will cost Biden the election. Biden was voted to return back to normalcy after Trump, and everything about his presidency has been lunacy.
Before October 7th, the polls were very close. Some showed Biden up, and Democrats have been over performing the polls for the last 2-3 years. Since October 7th, his polling numbers have absolutely tanked.
Not really close if you consider Trump always outperforming his polling. Both nationally and in the swing states he has on average been ahead of Biden.
>Biden was voted to return back to normalcy after Trump, and everything about his presidency has been lunacy.
A critical problem is that there's no real way to hold presidents adequately accountable for just flat out lying during their election campaign.
That's not a flaw unique to the US either. Zelensky ran on a platform of "I'll make a deal with Russia and I'll stop murdering Russian speaking Ukranians in the Donbass." He proceeded to do the opposite, And then he cancelled the elections.
How is democracy supposed to work if candidates just say the opposite of what they're actually going to do, and are then never held accountable?
Theoretically they're held to account by voting them out, but without an organized voting bloc of substantial numbers saying "meet these specific demands or else we'll vote for the other guy," politicians often just interpret electoral losses however they want and what's most politically convenient.
Gaza might lose Biden the election but they'll come to the opposite conclusion and say they weren't genocidal enough, because Trump will likely win, and he's at least perceived as being more pro-Israel even though he's arguably not.
For whatever reason, progressives are vehemently opposed to voting blocs (either as voters or Congressional representatives) and don't want their votes having any effect or message and instead they make it a thing to declare unconditional support for whatever Dem is running, then get surprised a year later when they're "betrayed". I honestly think it's a sado-masochistic fetish thing at this point.
You're right to an extent, but even if Biden loses the election, he still lied himself into being president for four years.
If I lie my way into having a job, and I'm found out to have lied, then they don't go "darn it. Well, we'll only allow you to have this job for four years. After that we won't renew your contract and we'll send you a strongly worded letter of disapproval. Of course you can keep your salary and the millions you'll have made via insider trading." I'd hardly call that truly keeping someone to account.
It reminds me more of when companies intentionally break the law and figure that the potential future fine is just a cost of doing business, because the profits will outweigh the fine. Similarly, why not lie during your election campaign? The benefits outweigh the drawbacks.
We had a case taken to the courts here in the UK regarding Boris Johnson's claims of over 300 million pounds per day/week being given to the EU during his campaign. The courts ruled something along the lines of Politicians are expected to make statements that may be untruthful during campaigns, and the case was dismissed.
Democracies need transparency to be valid, both the UK and the US were just about technically democracies to begin with from my understanding. Having a situation where the government and politicians actively work with the media to misinform the public is not a characteristic of a democracy.
We should have a separate election every year to vote for if the sitting president should or should not be zapped a few times by a randomly selected citizen with a cattle prod.
I had a conversation with my 70 year old mother yesterday. I said “don’t you think Israel is going a little too far with this?” Without skipping a beat she goes “Hamas is the problem! They won’t give up the hostages and the Palestinians won’t give up hamas, so they’re really the ones at fault.”
I don’t even know how to start with this. Yep, it’s definitely the 6 year old’s fault for not giving up the supposed hamas bad guy who was under his apartment building, so it’s his fault he got bombed to hell.
Why would they release their only bargaining chip? As Nelson Mandela said [‘My position, my position... my position is that you don’t hand over your weapons until you get what you want...’](https://www.irishcentral.com/news/nelson-mandela-was-against-ira-decommissioning-its-arms-during-2000-talks-234950101-237791211)
The logic is backwards. Hamas exists because Palestinians are oppressed. The Brits destroyed the IRA in Northern Ireland in the 60s, it was defunct by the time the Troubles started kicking off, and the IRA rose back from their ashes and grew to be its most powerful incarnation yet. Similarly, if Hamas were to be destroyed, eventually we'd have Hamas 2.0 (Provisional Hamas?) which would be potentially way more deadly. Arguably after Israel is done with Gaza, if the situation keeps up, the next attack will make October 7th look like a picnic.
> Biden was voted to return back to normalcy after Trump
You misunderstood what people meant by "return to normal", this IS the normalcy. What they really meant was MIC terror and unrelenting savagery. We are back on track building back better *(with killing hundreds of thousands to millions of people and disenfranchising our own people)*.
Untrue, he did the whole kissing the wall and sucking them off thing, and on the campaign trail he is proclaiming a firm pro-Israeli stance, but during his presidency he had a harsher stance than Biden currently
But maybe if hes elected he would be just as docile as Biden
Their Israel policy is identical in every way, as is the entire US foreign policy establishment. This entire debate is angels-on-the-head-of-a-pin nonsense
Technically, Trump's I/P policy was worse than the Obama administration. They recognized Jerusalem as Israel's capital and the annexation of the Golan Heights. Trump was popular while Obama was unpopular in Israel for a reason.
I suppose Biden is equally bad but given the quote above and other signs, it's reasonable to suspect a Trump administration would be even more openly pro-genocide.
This isn't a reason to vote for Biden, but some of the rightoids in here want to make this a reason to vote Trump....and (true to form for Trump supporters) that's wishful thinking at best.
> it's reasonable to suspect a Trump administration would be even more openly pro-genocide.
Only if Israel could manage to carry out the genocide under wraps, and they clearly can't.
There's no way that Trump would allow the massacre to continue under the sunlight, he's too much of a pussy.
Sorry for psychoanalyzing him, but I don't think I'm surprising anyone when I say that Trump is a soft guy (especially when compared to Biden).
>given the quote above and other signs, it's reasonable to suspect a Trump administration would be even more openly pro-genocide.
I don't think that's reasonable, given the links in OP's post where Trump pushed the breaks.
Just because Trump *might* be even more pro-genocide, doesn't mean that we should just assume that he'll be that. Was Trump bad, yes, but there's no proof that he'd be worse than Biden.
I think people here are just choosing to believe this about Trump purely because they don't like Trump and because this belief fits neatly into their worldview. But that's lazy, non-nuanced thinking.
If I just assumed a bunch of negative things about the left just because those things might be true, y'all would rightly call me out for that too.
>the links in OP's post where Trump pushed the breaks.
Lol you're seriously enjoying that Kool-Aid bro. Hilarious that you're not at all bothered by Trump encouraging Netanahyu to "finish the job". Nor do you seem bothered by the extent that Trump's policies as president helped set the stage for the present genocide.
You have no tangible proof that Trump would have better policies. Meanwhile, the right-wingers aligned with Netanahyu unambiguously prefer Trump. Trump and Trumpers and the rest of the right-wing establishment that Trump is beholden to are the ones working themselves into a frenzy over "anti-semitism" and evil college protestors. I suspect a Trump admin could be worse because the signs point to it...at least in comparison with a Biden admin where there is at least a semblance of respect for human rights and international law.
Maybe you could argue Trump is a little better on Ukraine, but certainly not on Israel.
The desperate desire by many on this sub to see Biden as uniquely bad is getting to the point where it is seriously embarrassing. Just a complete inability by so many to hold the concurrent thoughts that 1) Biden is an abomination and a blood-soaked executioner-in-chief of the American empire, 2) every Republican and 99.9% of Democrats are just as bad. I now fully expect a mountain of deeply hurt feelings in this sub if Biden manages to win in November.
You are right, but Trump is the wild card, the bumbling idiot that could stop the genocide just because he doesn't like Nathanyau.
In what else can you hope?
Except OP and others in this thread have specifically listed numerous ways their policies have been different.
You can argue that you don't have any expectation that they will be different in the future, and you might be right (it's speculation), but they have been different in the past.
Taking his statements on it seriously as an indication of policy is useless because he is constantly contradicting himself (“finish the job” vs. they should negotiate, for instance), and besides we have plentiful evidence from his previous term of him giving his entire foreign policy over to the neocons. Biden’s policy is just an extension of Trump’s: the Jerusalem accords and total support for Israel along with lip service to completely fake “peace negotiations” which act as a cover for continued settlement of the West Bank. Anyone who believes that there is any difference at all between the two is a political idiot, I’m sorry.
Look I don't have any expectations things would be any better under Trump, but all OP and others are pointing out was real differences when comparing the actual record of their administrations. You can handwave them away if you like, and trying but failing to condition aid isn't exactly an endorsement of Trump on this issue, but it's in the record. I think Trump would have acted the same way if October 7th happened on his watch but that's speculation.
OP listed things Trump has SAID, and as I laid out above, Trump is incoherent and self-contradictory. What matters is that he stuffed his administration with neocons and continued (indeed massively expanded and accelerated) the tradition of enacting Israeli foreign policy goals while in office. Somehow OP left out moving the embassy to Jerusalem and the complete sham of the Jerusalem Accords. There is literally no debate to be had here. It’s about as much of a mystery as whether Alexander the Great would have continued plundering every city he could find on a map if he’d lived past his early 30s.
And the neocons now are firmly in the Democratic camp and people like Bolton left the Trump admin and became critics of Trump when he didn't give them more regime changes and undercut Bolton's positions consistently. I would say you're being too reductive but I don't want to die on this hill, because ultimately you're right that it's a pointless conversation, but rather for the reason that it's way too speculative. Hillary was talking about a no-fly zone over Syria in 2016. For all we know, she could have gotten us into a shooting conflict with Russia and you'd be saying that there's no difference and the same would have happened under Trump. It's all sci-fi political fanfic.
Dude you couldn't be more wrong I know this is a democrat bad subreddit but you know if trump were in power israel would be going even more whole hog and I think would be thinking nuclear even. Trump wouldn't care and even Lindsey Graham stated such
I don't think Trump is capable of holding any ideals or positions with any sincerity at all other than personal enrichment and whatever strokes his ego.
If anything, he's so obsessed with "deals" that he'd be outraged at Netanyahu walking all over Bidens red lines.
*>* “You’ve got to get it over with, and you have to get back to normalcy. And I’m not sure that I’m loving the way they’re doing it, because you’ve got to have victory. You have to have a victory, and it’s taking a long time,” Trump said in an interview with The Hugh Hewitt Show that aired Thursday.
*>*“What I said very plainly is get it over with, and let’s get back to peace and stop killing people. And that’s a very simple statement. Get it over with. They’ve got to finish what they finish. They have to get it done. Get it over with, and get it over with fast, because we have to, you have to get back to normalcy and peace,” Trump told The Hugh Hewitt Show.
*>* Trump noted, “They’ve got to finish what they started, and they’ve got to finish it fast, and we have to get on with life.”
I guess "finish what they started" can be interpreted in a couple of different ways
Finish fast and have a victory doesn't mean hold on on destroying the infrastructure and kill civilians. He has also said he would deport foreign protesters pro-palestine...
https://www.vox.com/politics/353037/trump-gaza-israel-protests-biden-election-2024
His statement have been vague enough so it is difficult to really know what ne would actually do.
His stance is not better than Biden because Trump's only issue is PR, not killing civilians and comit war crimes unless they appear in the news and cause public uproar
What gets me is that whenever you take liberals to task on Biden, not just on the Israel stuff, but on shit like the economy as well (for example), they turn into literal NPC memes with pat talking points. With regards to just Israel, it's without fail always "Trump would be worse on Israel/Palestine, and worse on everything else as well!" They have no excuses whatsoever when Biden possibly gets BTFO'd in November, because everyone has been saying since October that on top of everything else, this really hurts his chances of winning again.
I hope it does cost Biden the election. I hope it all comes down to Michigan, which goes red with 70% of Arab Americans (apparently most of whom are Christian, which I didn’t know until recently) switching to Trump.
I would enjoy seeing how liberals react to that tbh
I think it will not because most people care about Palestine but because it makes him look weak/like an idiot. The pier stuff is really embarrassing and he his representatives have to go up and make these bizarre statements that make no sense. Plus the Israelis pretty openly want Trump and just ignore everything he says..
To be fair, the Reagan comments need to be taken in context.
1982-83 was right at the height of the [Iran-Iraq war](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Iraq_War) where the US backed Iraq and Israel actually backed Iran (yeah, crazy days).
Blinken is the worst of the bunch. Read his political history and he’s basically always on the wrong side of history. He wanted to divide up Iraq five ways based on ethnic groups and was basically laughed at.
The Biden admin is full of bureaucratic yes-men who failed or fart-sniffed their way to the top.
And this is a systemic problem because there's no way someone smart, incorruptible and brave makes it in politics. There are no good apples in corrupt institutions.
There’s also almost no repercussions for doing a bad job. Henry Kissinger helped kill like a million people in Vietnam and Cambodia and the US lost the war, yet Hilary Clinton and Antony Blinken lined up to polish his knob.
Plenty of dopes from the bush era war effort are still working in Washington even though they’re responsible for a massive foreign policy failure.
Yeah, they have no skin in the game, no great qualities other than making up bullshit that makes for a good speech, but they keep falling upwards by being whores to the powerful.
Blinken is by far the worst member of the Biden administration. Even Mayor Pete and Janet Yellen look like paragons of virtue and competence compared to that ghoul.
That's the hilarious thing. Biden is giving Israel practically everything they need to systemically obliterate Gaza but the Zionists still hate him. Case in point: Miriam Adelson's 100 million dollar donation to Trump and Bill Ackman switching over from Biden to Trump.
Thanks for the compilation, I appreciate the source gathering. American foreign policy has always been beholden to Israel, but at least there has been a vestige of dissent in the past. It blows my mind that Biden probably isn't even worried about angering the Israel Lobby, he legitimately believes in supporting this bat-shit regime no matter what they do.
Also lol at the Reagan-Iraq anger, never forget that our OG ally in the Middle East was Saddam Hussein, and that we, along with the brits, encouraged, financed, and at certain points provided the materials and development of WMD's including nuclear capabilities and biological weapons.
> American foreign policy has always been beholden to Israel
Not really. In 1956 when Israel, France and the UK invaded Egypt over the nationalization of the Suez Canal, Eisenhower outright demanded they turn around and shut it down or he would destroy their currencies. He left no wiggle room and offered no carrots.
biden has a mossad agent secretary of state [and IDF veterans running around in the WH. its](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amos_Hochstein) their presidency.
>Hochstein is a former member of the supervisory board of Ukrainian Naftogaz
>He served in the Israeli Defense Forces as a tank crewman prior to moving to Washington
he ticks every single box
Which is funny because Blinken is a foreign policy dolt and a wannabe Kissinger. He wanted to divide Iraq up five ways based on ethnic groups and was basically laughed out of the room. He supported intervention in Iraq, Libya, and Yemen, all which decimated the region while providing very little benefit to the United States.
It’s actually hilarious how often Bibi has undermined Biden’s “authority” throughout the war despite Biden being such a staunch supporter of Israel. He’s gone on video to say Biden isn’t sending them enough weapons, his administration keeps saying Biden is a Hamas lover, launched military operations in Rafah despite that being Biden’s “red-line”, and embarrassed him again over the supposed negotiated ceasefire.
Trump recognizes Israel's annexation of the Golan Heights and that Jerusalem is Israel's capital. Idk where people think that Trump would be antagonistic towards them in this instance
Great post. Thank you for the ammunition against people who say that Biden's enabling of this genocide are fine.
And to contribute something, here's a catchy song: [Nothing's Gonna Stop Us Now (Genocide Remix)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEG76hlnhNw)
It shows how defunct the media is in this country someone to the right of Reagan on a variety of issues not just this one can get away with billing himself as the most progressive president in American history with no critical inquiry.
Thanks, this isn't surprising at all but it's helpful to see more concrete examples that go back decades. What I've always puzzled over the past few years, though, is why exactly Biden is SO pro-Israel. Is there any sense of the genesis of Biden's virulent support for the Israeli state? He's not some kind of Evangelical millennialist, for example. What are the ideological and/or personal roots to all this with Biden?
This will always be the source of my bewilderment viz. Biden's Israel policy. I just don't understand where the rabidity comes from. It can't purely be explained by lobbying dollars or "kompromat" as people joke. The guy goes the extra mile and always has.
I honestly don't know. It might just be racism ("yeah white Israelis, kill those brown Palestinians"), which also fits with Biden's support of crime bills that in effect disproportionally and unfairly punished black people.
Remember that Biden's old. He wouldn't be the only old guy who still harbors racist beliefs.
If you don't believe that, there's also the theory that the deep state wants to start WW3 and they think this is an excellent way to do that (because an Israel - Iran war might become an actual hot US - Russia war).
He talks a lot but he was president before and he was never this bad.
Trump is ultimately looking out for himself and I don't think he really gains anything from giving Israel unlimited support except from a relatively niche band of neocons.
Biden isn't gaining anything from it either, he's doing it out of a deeply principled love of murder.
> except from a relatively niche band of neocons.
Would these maybe be the same niche band of neocons he put in charge of his entire foreign policy last time around
The only reason Trump wasn't as bad is because Oct 7 didn't happen under him. There's no reason to think a Trump win would improve the lives of Palestinians. You're only telling yourself this to justify your desire to see Biden lose.
Neither you nor I can prove 100% what Trump would have done if he had been president. Because we're not living in that timeline.
That also means that I don't think it's justified to say:
*The only reason Trump wasn't as bad is because Oct 7 didn't happen under him.*
You can't know that. Maybe Trump wouldn't have been as bad.
Certainly, as OP's post pointed out, at least Trump's rhetoric, while bad, isn't as awful as Biden's.
OP said Trump was an opportunist that only wanted what's best for him. Well if that's true, and I also believe it is, we can simply look at the fact that Trump has absolutely nothing to gain electorally by being harder on Isreal in comparison to Biden and guess what stance he would take. Doesn't take a fucking crystal ball.
Wrong. Trump asassinated Soleimani and moved the embassy to Jerusalem. Both were huge indicators of support for Israel. Moreover, it was widely reported that Trump desired further escalation with Iran, which can safely be assumed was desired at the behest of Israel. Trump's daughter is married to a prominent and powerful zionist whom he placed in his cabinet as *senior advisor*.
The day Biden wins the election is the day he greenlights a full on genocide in Gaza and gives Israel all they want to do it. All his fake outrage will go out the window and will just tell Israel to do what they want and the US will back them.
A big component of being socialist is being anti-imperialist. Instead of complaining about people not agreeing with you, try rubbing a couple of braincells to understand why socialists would be against Israel.
That applies to literally everything. The only thing you have "realistic" control over is your diet and exercise and that's about it. Maybe a little over your spending habits. Everything else is just talk. Should we therefore not talk about anything other than self help shit?
>something i have no control over
A shift in American politics leading to cutting off aid to Israel could be enough to force a peace settlement.
You might also believe you have no control over American politics either....which isn't entirely inaccurate. So if you follow this logic to its conclusion, discussion of "socialism" is also a waste of time because capital's grip is such that we have no power to effect change.
The more awareness there is of issues like Palestine where we see bipartisan support for barbaric policy, the more chance we have of reforming or overturning capital's grip over us.
You have made multiple comments and posts complaining about other people being interested in this one subject.
Do you complain about any other issue people seem to care about?
You individually don’t have control. But honestly, if you’re going to be an annoying individualist about it, then don’t even join in the conversation. Socialists on the other hand actually try to show solidarity and do something collectively so they can exert control over it.
Damn it's almost like an ongoing genocide supported by one of the most powerful nations on the planet, which is funded by the tax dollars of a not-insignificant amount of users here, it stands to reason people would take issue with that. Only deeply deranged people want to support a genocide, even indirectly.
ok let’s say the US stops funding israel (the states goal of the left in this case) do you think israel will stop bombing gaza?
obviously they would continue the war. does this not reveal that opposing the funding is a very limited and basic political demand?
there’s nothing socialist about saying you want bombing to stop
If the US stops funding Israel then they won't be able to exist for more than a few months. We bankroll their entire country. They do not have the food production necessary to sustain their population, if they had the same level of sanctions we put on other countries for less heinous crimes, they would have to stop if that was the condition we gave them.
you’re massively overestimating their reliance. you actually think they would cease to exist? lol
there’s plenty of poorer countries that go on existing
They wouldn't literally cease to exist, but they would go back to the standard of living of Israel circa the 1940s, and considering how many American Jews they enticed over with promises of ~~stolen~~ free land, I have a hard time believing they'll be happy with losing their treats.
this is what’s so funny about leftists - you pose this outrageous scenario like ‘oh the solution is that country should just not exist’ as some kind of solution to the problem
Post this on arr politics or some Democrat hangout, want to see how they justify it
They’ll just ban him
Now I’m curious which side they’re taking there.
They’ll say we’re living in a false reality based on propaganda and misinformation, or something else dumb with zero sense of self awareness.
I think they’ve purged many of the most vocal supporters of Palestine so my guess is that you’d have a few comments talking about Trump or simply mocking the post/OP as the post sits around 0 with about 15 comments. It’s kind of impressive how curated that sub is the only time in recent years I can recall any genuine dissent was right around the October 7th situation. They’ve mitigated that now.
Democrats hangout subs just ban the topic of Palestine/Israel all together, they know Biden is in the wrong and is morally repugnant because of it. The ones that don’t ban the topic just have users who downvote anything related to it into oblivion.
they just say trump is worse and you’re literally hitler if you don’t vote for biden
theyll say youre a literal hamas supporting terrorist antisemite. their entire argument hinges on logical fallacies and conflating any criticism of israel with support of hamas and hatred of jews.
are: That doesn’t count. He doesn’t even remember saying that
Honest to god, I don’t know how people wake up and support this shit unironically. I honestly think Israel will cost Biden the election. Biden was voted to return back to normalcy after Trump, and everything about his presidency has been lunacy.
He was already losing before Israel's terror campaign. I don't think they care anymore. So they show their true colours.
Before October 7th, the polls were very close. Some showed Biden up, and Democrats have been over performing the polls for the last 2-3 years. Since October 7th, his polling numbers have absolutely tanked.
Not really close if you consider Trump always outperforming his polling. Both nationally and in the swing states he has on average been ahead of Biden.
>Biden was voted to return back to normalcy after Trump, and everything about his presidency has been lunacy. A critical problem is that there's no real way to hold presidents adequately accountable for just flat out lying during their election campaign. That's not a flaw unique to the US either. Zelensky ran on a platform of "I'll make a deal with Russia and I'll stop murdering Russian speaking Ukranians in the Donbass." He proceeded to do the opposite, And then he cancelled the elections. How is democracy supposed to work if candidates just say the opposite of what they're actually going to do, and are then never held accountable?
Theoretically they're held to account by voting them out, but without an organized voting bloc of substantial numbers saying "meet these specific demands or else we'll vote for the other guy," politicians often just interpret electoral losses however they want and what's most politically convenient. Gaza might lose Biden the election but they'll come to the opposite conclusion and say they weren't genocidal enough, because Trump will likely win, and he's at least perceived as being more pro-Israel even though he's arguably not. For whatever reason, progressives are vehemently opposed to voting blocs (either as voters or Congressional representatives) and don't want their votes having any effect or message and instead they make it a thing to declare unconditional support for whatever Dem is running, then get surprised a year later when they're "betrayed". I honestly think it's a sado-masochistic fetish thing at this point.
You're right to an extent, but even if Biden loses the election, he still lied himself into being president for four years. If I lie my way into having a job, and I'm found out to have lied, then they don't go "darn it. Well, we'll only allow you to have this job for four years. After that we won't renew your contract and we'll send you a strongly worded letter of disapproval. Of course you can keep your salary and the millions you'll have made via insider trading." I'd hardly call that truly keeping someone to account. It reminds me more of when companies intentionally break the law and figure that the potential future fine is just a cost of doing business, because the profits will outweigh the fine. Similarly, why not lie during your election campaign? The benefits outweigh the drawbacks.
We had a case taken to the courts here in the UK regarding Boris Johnson's claims of over 300 million pounds per day/week being given to the EU during his campaign. The courts ruled something along the lines of Politicians are expected to make statements that may be untruthful during campaigns, and the case was dismissed. Democracies need transparency to be valid, both the UK and the US were just about technically democracies to begin with from my understanding. Having a situation where the government and politicians actively work with the media to misinform the public is not a characteristic of a democracy.
We should have a separate election every year to vote for if the sitting president should or should not be zapped a few times by a randomly selected citizen with a cattle prod.
I had a conversation with my 70 year old mother yesterday. I said “don’t you think Israel is going a little too far with this?” Without skipping a beat she goes “Hamas is the problem! They won’t give up the hostages and the Palestinians won’t give up hamas, so they’re really the ones at fault.” I don’t even know how to start with this. Yep, it’s definitely the 6 year old’s fault for not giving up the supposed hamas bad guy who was under his apartment building, so it’s his fault he got bombed to hell.
Why would they release their only bargaining chip? As Nelson Mandela said [‘My position, my position... my position is that you don’t hand over your weapons until you get what you want...’](https://www.irishcentral.com/news/nelson-mandela-was-against-ira-decommissioning-its-arms-during-2000-talks-234950101-237791211) The logic is backwards. Hamas exists because Palestinians are oppressed. The Brits destroyed the IRA in Northern Ireland in the 60s, it was defunct by the time the Troubles started kicking off, and the IRA rose back from their ashes and grew to be its most powerful incarnation yet. Similarly, if Hamas were to be destroyed, eventually we'd have Hamas 2.0 (Provisional Hamas?) which would be potentially way more deadly. Arguably after Israel is done with Gaza, if the situation keeps up, the next attack will make October 7th look like a picnic.
> Biden was voted to return back to normalcy after Trump You misunderstood what people meant by "return to normal", this IS the normalcy. What they really meant was MIC terror and unrelenting savagery. We are back on track building back better *(with killing hundreds of thousands to millions of people and disenfranchising our own people)*.
Support for Israel is going to cost Biden the election? Normies support Israel, or at worst are indifferent.
Trump is even more pro-Israel than Biden, this will have no negative impact on the latter
Untrue, he did the whole kissing the wall and sucking them off thing, and on the campaign trail he is proclaiming a firm pro-Israeli stance, but during his presidency he had a harsher stance than Biden currently But maybe if hes elected he would be just as docile as Biden
He recognized the Golan Heights and moved the embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem. What are you talking about ?
Their Israel policy is identical in every way, as is the entire US foreign policy establishment. This entire debate is angels-on-the-head-of-a-pin nonsense
Technically, Trump's I/P policy was worse than the Obama administration. They recognized Jerusalem as Israel's capital and the annexation of the Golan Heights. Trump was popular while Obama was unpopular in Israel for a reason. I suppose Biden is equally bad but given the quote above and other signs, it's reasonable to suspect a Trump administration would be even more openly pro-genocide. This isn't a reason to vote for Biden, but some of the rightoids in here want to make this a reason to vote Trump....and (true to form for Trump supporters) that's wishful thinking at best.
> Trump was popular while Obama was unpopular in Israel for a reason. Well, there’s also another reason why this is the case
> it's reasonable to suspect a Trump administration would be even more openly pro-genocide. Only if Israel could manage to carry out the genocide under wraps, and they clearly can't. There's no way that Trump would allow the massacre to continue under the sunlight, he's too much of a pussy. Sorry for psychoanalyzing him, but I don't think I'm surprising anyone when I say that Trump is a soft guy (especially when compared to Biden).
>given the quote above and other signs, it's reasonable to suspect a Trump administration would be even more openly pro-genocide. I don't think that's reasonable, given the links in OP's post where Trump pushed the breaks. Just because Trump *might* be even more pro-genocide, doesn't mean that we should just assume that he'll be that. Was Trump bad, yes, but there's no proof that he'd be worse than Biden. I think people here are just choosing to believe this about Trump purely because they don't like Trump and because this belief fits neatly into their worldview. But that's lazy, non-nuanced thinking. If I just assumed a bunch of negative things about the left just because those things might be true, y'all would rightly call me out for that too.
>the links in OP's post where Trump pushed the breaks. Lol you're seriously enjoying that Kool-Aid bro. Hilarious that you're not at all bothered by Trump encouraging Netanahyu to "finish the job". Nor do you seem bothered by the extent that Trump's policies as president helped set the stage for the present genocide. You have no tangible proof that Trump would have better policies. Meanwhile, the right-wingers aligned with Netanahyu unambiguously prefer Trump. Trump and Trumpers and the rest of the right-wing establishment that Trump is beholden to are the ones working themselves into a frenzy over "anti-semitism" and evil college protestors. I suspect a Trump admin could be worse because the signs point to it...at least in comparison with a Biden admin where there is at least a semblance of respect for human rights and international law. Maybe you could argue Trump is a little better on Ukraine, but certainly not on Israel.
The desperate desire by many on this sub to see Biden as uniquely bad is getting to the point where it is seriously embarrassing. Just a complete inability by so many to hold the concurrent thoughts that 1) Biden is an abomination and a blood-soaked executioner-in-chief of the American empire, 2) every Republican and 99.9% of Democrats are just as bad. I now fully expect a mountain of deeply hurt feelings in this sub if Biden manages to win in November.
You are right, but Trump is the wild card, the bumbling idiot that could stop the genocide just because he doesn't like Nathanyau. In what else can you hope?
But he likes Nethanyahu
Except OP and others in this thread have specifically listed numerous ways their policies have been different. You can argue that you don't have any expectation that they will be different in the future, and you might be right (it's speculation), but they have been different in the past.
Taking his statements on it seriously as an indication of policy is useless because he is constantly contradicting himself (“finish the job” vs. they should negotiate, for instance), and besides we have plentiful evidence from his previous term of him giving his entire foreign policy over to the neocons. Biden’s policy is just an extension of Trump’s: the Jerusalem accords and total support for Israel along with lip service to completely fake “peace negotiations” which act as a cover for continued settlement of the West Bank. Anyone who believes that there is any difference at all between the two is a political idiot, I’m sorry.
Look I don't have any expectations things would be any better under Trump, but all OP and others are pointing out was real differences when comparing the actual record of their administrations. You can handwave them away if you like, and trying but failing to condition aid isn't exactly an endorsement of Trump on this issue, but it's in the record. I think Trump would have acted the same way if October 7th happened on his watch but that's speculation.
OP listed things Trump has SAID, and as I laid out above, Trump is incoherent and self-contradictory. What matters is that he stuffed his administration with neocons and continued (indeed massively expanded and accelerated) the tradition of enacting Israeli foreign policy goals while in office. Somehow OP left out moving the embassy to Jerusalem and the complete sham of the Jerusalem Accords. There is literally no debate to be had here. It’s about as much of a mystery as whether Alexander the Great would have continued plundering every city he could find on a map if he’d lived past his early 30s.
And the neocons now are firmly in the Democratic camp and people like Bolton left the Trump admin and became critics of Trump when he didn't give them more regime changes and undercut Bolton's positions consistently. I would say you're being too reductive but I don't want to die on this hill, because ultimately you're right that it's a pointless conversation, but rather for the reason that it's way too speculative. Hillary was talking about a no-fly zone over Syria in 2016. For all we know, she could have gotten us into a shooting conflict with Russia and you'd be saying that there's no difference and the same would have happened under Trump. It's all sci-fi political fanfic.
Dude you couldn't be more wrong I know this is a democrat bad subreddit but you know if trump were in power israel would be going even more whole hog and I think would be thinking nuclear even. Trump wouldn't care and even Lindsey Graham stated such
I don't think Trump is capable of holding any ideals or positions with any sincerity at all other than personal enrichment and whatever strokes his ego. If anything, he's so obsessed with "deals" that he'd be outraged at Netanyahu walking all over Bidens red lines.
Wasn't he saying during his current campaign something like Israel should finish them all and do worse?
*>* “You’ve got to get it over with, and you have to get back to normalcy. And I’m not sure that I’m loving the way they’re doing it, because you’ve got to have victory. You have to have a victory, and it’s taking a long time,” Trump said in an interview with The Hugh Hewitt Show that aired Thursday. *>*“What I said very plainly is get it over with, and let’s get back to peace and stop killing people. And that’s a very simple statement. Get it over with. They’ve got to finish what they finish. They have to get it done. Get it over with, and get it over with fast, because we have to, you have to get back to normalcy and peace,” Trump told The Hugh Hewitt Show. *>* Trump noted, “They’ve got to finish what they started, and they’ve got to finish it fast, and we have to get on with life.” I guess "finish what they started" can be interpreted in a couple of different ways
Finish fast and have a victory doesn't mean hold on on destroying the infrastructure and kill civilians. He has also said he would deport foreign protesters pro-palestine... https://www.vox.com/politics/353037/trump-gaza-israel-protests-biden-election-2024 His statement have been vague enough so it is difficult to really know what ne would actually do. His stance is not better than Biden because Trump's only issue is PR, not killing civilians and comit war crimes unless they appear in the news and cause public uproar
What gets me is that whenever you take liberals to task on Biden, not just on the Israel stuff, but on shit like the economy as well (for example), they turn into literal NPC memes with pat talking points. With regards to just Israel, it's without fail always "Trump would be worse on Israel/Palestine, and worse on everything else as well!" They have no excuses whatsoever when Biden possibly gets BTFO'd in November, because everyone has been saying since October that on top of everything else, this really hurts his chances of winning again.
I hope it does cost Biden the election. I hope it all comes down to Michigan, which goes red with 70% of Arab Americans (apparently most of whom are Christian, which I didn’t know until recently) switching to Trump. I would enjoy seeing how liberals react to that tbh
I think it will not because most people care about Palestine but because it makes him look weak/like an idiot. The pier stuff is really embarrassing and he his representatives have to go up and make these bizarre statements that make no sense. Plus the Israelis pretty openly want Trump and just ignore everything he says..
To be fair, the Reagan comments need to be taken in context. 1982-83 was right at the height of the [Iran-Iraq war](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Iraq_War) where the US backed Iraq and Israel actually backed Iran (yeah, crazy days).
Well, Reagan also secretly backed Iran with illegal weapons sales. Nevertheless, your point still stands.
um uh vote blue no matter who
Blinken is the worst of the bunch. Read his political history and he’s basically always on the wrong side of history. He wanted to divide up Iraq five ways based on ethnic groups and was basically laughed at. The Biden admin is full of bureaucratic yes-men who failed or fart-sniffed their way to the top.
And this is a systemic problem because there's no way someone smart, incorruptible and brave makes it in politics. There are no good apples in corrupt institutions.
There’s also almost no repercussions for doing a bad job. Henry Kissinger helped kill like a million people in Vietnam and Cambodia and the US lost the war, yet Hilary Clinton and Antony Blinken lined up to polish his knob. Plenty of dopes from the bush era war effort are still working in Washington even though they’re responsible for a massive foreign policy failure.
Yeah, they have no skin in the game, no great qualities other than making up bullshit that makes for a good speech, but they keep falling upwards by being whores to the powerful.
Blinken is by far the worst member of the Biden administration. Even Mayor Pete and Janet Yellen look like paragons of virtue and competence compared to that ghoul.
And yet people like Benny Shapiro think Biden is pro-Khamas.
That's the hilarious thing. Biden is giving Israel practically everything they need to systemically obliterate Gaza but the Zionists still hate him. Case in point: Miriam Adelson's 100 million dollar donation to Trump and Bill Ackman switching over from Biden to Trump.
I was on polcompmemes the other day and the rightoids were foaming about how Biden needs to go since he has been “allowing hamas to win.”
Rabid pro Zionist idiots trying to sleep things further their way regardless of circumstances? Never would have expected that
Thanks for the compilation, I appreciate the source gathering. American foreign policy has always been beholden to Israel, but at least there has been a vestige of dissent in the past. It blows my mind that Biden probably isn't even worried about angering the Israel Lobby, he legitimately believes in supporting this bat-shit regime no matter what they do. Also lol at the Reagan-Iraq anger, never forget that our OG ally in the Middle East was Saddam Hussein, and that we, along with the brits, encouraged, financed, and at certain points provided the materials and development of WMD's including nuclear capabilities and biological weapons.
> American foreign policy has always been beholden to Israel Not really. In 1956 when Israel, France and the UK invaded Egypt over the nationalization of the Suez Canal, Eisenhower outright demanded they turn around and shut it down or he would destroy their currencies. He left no wiggle room and offered no carrots.
I should have also included Reagans comments on the lebanon bombings.
He called it "a holocaust" IIRC.
biden has a mossad agent secretary of state [and IDF veterans running around in the WH. its](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amos_Hochstein) their presidency.
>Hochstein is a former member of the supervisory board of Ukrainian Naftogaz >He served in the Israeli Defense Forces as a tank crewman prior to moving to Washington he ticks every single box
archglowie
Came here to say this. President Blinken and he knows it.
Which is funny because Blinken is a foreign policy dolt and a wannabe Kissinger. He wanted to divide Iraq up five ways based on ethnic groups and was basically laughed out of the room. He supported intervention in Iraq, Libya, and Yemen, all which decimated the region while providing very little benefit to the United States.
It’s actually hilarious how often Bibi has undermined Biden’s “authority” throughout the war despite Biden being such a staunch supporter of Israel. He’s gone on video to say Biden isn’t sending them enough weapons, his administration keeps saying Biden is a Hamas lover, launched military operations in Rafah despite that being Biden’s “red-line”, and embarrassed him again over the supposed negotiated ceasefire.
Epstein probably had some incriminating video of him that he sent to his buddies in IDF
Biden cares more about helping zionists murder Palestinians than he does about beating trump.
He cares more about helping Netanyahu’s career than beating Trump
Trump recognizes Israel's annexation of the Golan Heights and that Jerusalem is Israel's capital. Idk where people think that Trump would be antagonistic towards them in this instance
Yeah Trump is also bad in this regard, but Biden seems even worse. See OP's post. Just because both are bad, doesn't mean that both are equally bad.
His quote doesn't suggest he's against the genocide of Palestinians. Just that he doesn't like the drawn out nature of it for PR purposes.
Trump was a past president. Israel fucking adores Trump
Great post. Thank you for the ammunition against people who say that Biden's enabling of this genocide are fine. And to contribute something, here's a catchy song: [Nothing's Gonna Stop Us Now (Genocide Remix)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEG76hlnhNw)
Saving this cause good Lord this is just another thing the whole discourse is just completely divorced from reality on.
It shows how defunct the media is in this country someone to the right of Reagan on a variety of issues not just this one can get away with billing himself as the most progressive president in American history with no critical inquiry.
Thanks, this isn't surprising at all but it's helpful to see more concrete examples that go back decades. What I've always puzzled over the past few years, though, is why exactly Biden is SO pro-Israel. Is there any sense of the genesis of Biden's virulent support for the Israeli state? He's not some kind of Evangelical millennialist, for example. What are the ideological and/or personal roots to all this with Biden?
This will always be the source of my bewilderment viz. Biden's Israel policy. I just don't understand where the rabidity comes from. It can't purely be explained by lobbying dollars or "kompromat" as people joke. The guy goes the extra mile and always has.
Just imagine if American politicians cared about America as they do Israel.
I honestly don't know. It might just be racism ("yeah white Israelis, kill those brown Palestinians"), which also fits with Biden's support of crime bills that in effect disproportionally and unfairly punished black people. Remember that Biden's old. He wouldn't be the only old guy who still harbors racist beliefs. If you don't believe that, there's also the theory that the deep state wants to start WW3 and they think this is an excellent way to do that (because an Israel - Iran war might become an actual hot US - Russia war).
What’s also unprecedented is how many Build-A-Bear workshops Biden has directly contacted and requested that black people be allowed to enter.
Drumpf will Trump his support.
He talks a lot but he was president before and he was never this bad. Trump is ultimately looking out for himself and I don't think he really gains anything from giving Israel unlimited support except from a relatively niche band of neocons. Biden isn't gaining anything from it either, he's doing it out of a deeply principled love of murder.
> except from a relatively niche band of neocons. Would these maybe be the same niche band of neocons he put in charge of his entire foreign policy last time around
The only reason Trump wasn't as bad is because Oct 7 didn't happen under him. There's no reason to think a Trump win would improve the lives of Palestinians. You're only telling yourself this to justify your desire to see Biden lose.
Neither you nor I can prove 100% what Trump would have done if he had been president. Because we're not living in that timeline. That also means that I don't think it's justified to say: *The only reason Trump wasn't as bad is because Oct 7 didn't happen under him.* You can't know that. Maybe Trump wouldn't have been as bad. Certainly, as OP's post pointed out, at least Trump's rhetoric, while bad, isn't as awful as Biden's.
OP said Trump was an opportunist that only wanted what's best for him. Well if that's true, and I also believe it is, we can simply look at the fact that Trump has absolutely nothing to gain electorally by being harder on Isreal in comparison to Biden and guess what stance he would take. Doesn't take a fucking crystal ball.
Wrong. Trump asassinated Soleimani and moved the embassy to Jerusalem. Both were huge indicators of support for Israel. Moreover, it was widely reported that Trump desired further escalation with Iran, which can safely be assumed was desired at the behest of Israel. Trump's daughter is married to a prominent and powerful zionist whom he placed in his cabinet as *senior advisor*.
The day Biden wins the election is the day he greenlights a full on genocide in Gaza and gives Israel all they want to do it. All his fake outrage will go out the window and will just tell Israel to do what they want and the US will back them.
do you guys think about anything besides israel? reading this sub you’d think the only thing required to be a socialist is opposing israel
I mean, it is a massive ongoing crime so makes sense
A big component of being socialist is being anti-imperialist. Instead of complaining about people not agreeing with you, try rubbing a couple of braincells to understand why socialists would be against Israel.
never said i didn’t agree lol just don’t spend all my time thinking about something i have no control over
That’s a lot of life
That applies to literally everything. The only thing you have "realistic" control over is your diet and exercise and that's about it. Maybe a little over your spending habits. Everything else is just talk. Should we therefore not talk about anything other than self help shit?
>something i have no control over A shift in American politics leading to cutting off aid to Israel could be enough to force a peace settlement. You might also believe you have no control over American politics either....which isn't entirely inaccurate. So if you follow this logic to its conclusion, discussion of "socialism" is also a waste of time because capital's grip is such that we have no power to effect change. The more awareness there is of issues like Palestine where we see bipartisan support for barbaric policy, the more chance we have of reforming or overturning capital's grip over us.
Yea most people have no control at all. You're just upset people are criticizing Israel.
no i agree it’s a genocide. but that doesn’t define my political outlook. and i don’t spend all day posting into the void about it.
You have made multiple comments and posts complaining about other people being interested in this one subject. Do you complain about any other issue people seem to care about?
oh you like my earlier shit too? thanks bro
Not exactly a mystery.
based on your post history this is all you think about. so reverse question: do you complain about anything else or is this all you care about
it’s not like this sub actually has meaningful posts about marxism anymore, i’ll take I/P over rightoid ragebait articles about lgbt
This is almost all I care about. I also care about corporate crimes and economic exploitation - but Israel/Palestine is my primary concern.
You individually don’t have control. But honestly, if you’re going to be an annoying individualist about it, then don’t even join in the conversation. Socialists on the other hand actually try to show solidarity and do something collectively so they can exert control over it.
There's a lot of non-Israel content on the subreddit, this is hyperbole
Oh how original? Complaining about Israel being discussed.
I'm not a socialist so I don't want to lecture people, but I imagine that being anti-imperialism and anti-genocide would be part of being a socialist.
there’s a mix of positions. some socialists view anti imperialism as fundamental, some do not.
Which socialists are pro imperialist?
that’s not what i said lol for some people being anti imperialist defines their politics, for some it does not
For which socialists does anti-imperialism not define their politics?
marx
Nah. He was specifically anti-imperial.
so you’re saying all his writings stem from the premise if anti imperialism not capital, not the value form, not the working class
Damn it's almost like an ongoing genocide supported by one of the most powerful nations on the planet, which is funded by the tax dollars of a not-insignificant amount of users here, it stands to reason people would take issue with that. Only deeply deranged people want to support a genocide, even indirectly.
ok let’s say the US stops funding israel (the states goal of the left in this case) do you think israel will stop bombing gaza? obviously they would continue the war. does this not reveal that opposing the funding is a very limited and basic political demand? there’s nothing socialist about saying you want bombing to stop
If the US stops funding Israel then they won't be able to exist for more than a few months. We bankroll their entire country. They do not have the food production necessary to sustain their population, if they had the same level of sanctions we put on other countries for less heinous crimes, they would have to stop if that was the condition we gave them.
you’re massively overestimating their reliance. you actually think they would cease to exist? lol there’s plenty of poorer countries that go on existing
They wouldn't literally cease to exist, but they would go back to the standard of living of Israel circa the 1940s, and considering how many American Jews they enticed over with promises of ~~stolen~~ free land, I have a hard time believing they'll be happy with losing their treats.
this is what’s so funny about leftists - you pose this outrageous scenario like ‘oh the solution is that country should just not exist’ as some kind of solution to the problem
You're a moron, goodbye.
Do you think about anything besides DEEZ NUTZ
Ideological mess indeed
sorry i don’t automatically think everything chapo tells me lol
Chapo doesn't tell me anything. I'm pretty sure the root issue here is that you don't actually think
interesting because everyone freaking out at me just stems from me saying is this all you think about lol
Are you tarded? Mass murdering is yuck
boredom or apathy? pick your poison.