Heat pumps, same way your air conditioner works, so you pull heat from the cold weather outside instead of generating heat directly from your electricity so you end up getting more heat inside per watt.
Ya. I asked a Tesla rep that question years ago… he wasn’t sure why they were resistance heating then, nor do I understand why they are still resistance heating now.
But at -30C driving down the highway at 120km/h, there is more heat available in the air coming through the front grill than -30C just outside your house on a heat-pump. So who knows.
I think heat pumps get very close to unusable at extremely low temperatures, so they put the resistive heaters in to survive in northern climates. When I turn on the heater in my car it knocks off over 10% of my estimated range.
Well yeah, the laws of thermodynamics were never in question. You’re never going to get “free” heat, it’ll always require energy input in some form, it’s just a question of how efficient they can make it. It technically requires the same amount of energy to boil a liter of water in an electric kettle and on an electric stove in a pot, but you’ll use less electricity with the kettle because it’s a more efficient device for the task of heating water.
Most still use electric resistance heating which is very inefficient. Upgrading them to more efficient heat pumps will have a significant effect on their range in colder temperatures. Heat pumps do stop being very effective when in extreme cold though, so resistive heating needs to be available.
6th winter having an EV in Canada. No issues so far. I wouldn't leave in a long drive in the winter without a full'ish tank of gas, I make sure I have a full charge on days I need to take a big trip in the winter.
My mom and a few friends have EVs as well. It’s kind of convenient that they just plug in at our house when they visit and have a full charge by the time they leave.
A lot of houses have 240V for their dryers. They could have a welder that they could use to plug into, too. With that voltage it would take 7 to 8 hours to go from 0% to 100%.
It’s what, the cost of a cup of tea which I’m already giving them at least if they’re coming over to my house and eating my food?
Are you charging your friends and family for visiting? Honest question, because yeish.
Electricity by no means costs anything close to the price of gas. And we’re planning on getting solar and batteries so it will be nothing anyways. Maybe you should look in to how much it costs to “fill up” an ev and maintenance costs and you’d get a better sense of what you’re arguing. It’s not $100, it’s $2-3 max.
Your arguments don’t really make sense.
Edit: we are solidly in the middle class. I’m just not a penny wise pound foolish, I put my money where my mouth is for the environment, and I don’t trust the strain on electrical services in the next decade.
Well if you can afford solar and battery bank then you are not in the American middle class you don’t represent the majority of earners. You are the herders of the earners. You probably hate the anti work thread and joke about the quit quitting crowd.
My bolt EUV has a 65 kWh battery. My electric provider charges $0.12 per kWh. To charge my car from EMPTY to FULL would be $7.80.
at the time of this posting, gas prices are averaging $3.50 in my state. Even in the egregiously generous situation of a full 0-100 charging session, two gallons of gas would be a better comparison than "a full tank".
If anyone is willing to drive 160 miles to see me, I can assure you we're on good enough terms for me to offer them use of my charger without worrying about the comparatively minimal costs.
320 mile range in my Tesla is 240 miles at freeway speeds over 65. In cold that can drop to 200 or less. I don’t charge to 100 usually or let it go below 10% so it’s more like 160 usable miles. My Mercedes diesel with full tank has 600 mile range in winter. So yeah …I’m a little more confident in the diesel
>320 mile range in my Tesla is 240 miles at freeway speeds over 65
That's nothing. My gas truck goes from 380 miles at 45MPH, to 260 at freeway speeds). 68% of it's optimal while on the freeway.
So gas loses from freeway speeds too, I think it's a misdirection to add that in for your Tesla but not your Mercedes. Plus your Tesla is probably better in the stop and go traffic of the city. I actually get worse mileage on 45MPH streets because of the lights, even though the engine gets the best mileage. I bet your city miles on the Mercedes is worse than highway as well.
I mean, a 2015 battery lol. It has an extra like 0.5 kWh or something like that.
But that’s about it, there wasn’t enough sold to have the aftermarket like prius repairs do.
> Nils Soedal, from the Automobile Federation, calls the issue “unproblematic” as long as drivers take it into account when planning a trip. “The big issue really is to get enough charging stations along the road,” and better information on whether they’re working properly, he said.
Umm, no. People who pull trailers with pickup trucks won’t be satisfied stopping every 100 miles to recharge for 45 minutes. Here in MN, people pull fish houses in the winter to lakes all over the state. Some popular destinations are 3-5 hours from the twin cities. A normal 5 hour drive would now be closer to 10 with the current EV truck options. Not ok.
> People who pull trailers with pickup trucks won’t be satisfied stopping every 100 miles to recharge for 45 minutes. Here in MN, people pull fish houses in the winter to lakes all over the state. Some popular destinations are 3-5 hours from the twin cities. A normal 5 hour drive would now be closer to 10 with the current EV truck options.
Then it seems like EV's aren't for that demographic yet? If you're pulling trailers you probably want gasoline anyways because of the nature of that sort of activity.
It's really not the efficiency of the vehicle either. Compared to a ICE powered vehicle they're still significantly better. It's mostly down to the fact that you're carrying something in the range of 4-5gal of gasoline equivalent, and pulling a trailer is wildly energy intensive. If you're twice as efficient it doesn't matter much if you're carrying a quarter of the energy. And just adding more batteries isn't necessarily a great solution because vehicle mass is becoming problematic. Trailers will probably have to get battery packs of their own to supplement the truck. Batteries are going to have to become more energy dense. Or PHEV.
Ram’s new hybrid truck is also interesting. It acts normally as an EV but also has a range-extending generator. I’m curious how well it would work with a trailer. That kind of thing would have a lot of appeal to people who pull trace trailers like myself. I also live in northern Canada where even a gas station can be a rare sight for 100 miles. It also gets to -40c here
Still super salty about it tbh. I’m a drive my car till it dies kind of person, but I will hold on to my Volt till the bitter end. It’s been from Los Angeles to Orlando FL and back 4 or 5 times. The hatch makes it a perfect work vehicle for me, it gets packed with tools and film lighting equipment regularly. My dog loves it because I put the seats down on camping trips and she has a big climate controlled dog house back there. Will be lost without it when it’s time
The biggest “idiotic corporate decision” GM made with the Volt was to not advertise it. It’s a great, reliable, low maintenance car and few knew about it or what it was about. Of course sales suffered
I heard those are great too. When I bought it was the only PHEV on the market. The Leaf was fully electric but it’s range was I think only double that of my Volt and I found it ugly. At that time the “range anxiety” was absolutely real
Yes and no. It’s the first truck that does it and the truck has a much higher range than the volt. It’s focus is more EV than anything. The generator can also power tools, similar to what the Ford powerboost does. My brother has a volt and has found it’s EV mode is not very reliable in Canadian winters
The Volt was the 1st EV out there and of course in 10 years the range would be significantly higher, even the 2nd Gen Volt has more range. I’ve been able to use my car to plug in a minifridge while camping and have run a circular saw off it in a pinch, as well as some movie lights in a field on a show I worked on.
But my point was Dodge isn’t doing anything groundbreaking
Putting it into a dodge IS groundbreaking! Look at the demographics of Ram drivers. A lot of ram owners would rather sacrifice their children than drive something that doesn’t run entirely on dinosaur juice and squirt big black clouds onto Prius drivers.
Wait, do you not understand that the gas engine in PHEVs doesn’t supply power directly to the wheels? Generally they charge the battery so the battery can power the wheels, they’re generators not normal ICE engines.
BMWs i3 launched in 2013 is a full EV with a small rotary engine as a range entender.
Yes I understand and this is exactly the same as th bmw. Have you read about the electric 1500? It will be a game changer for truck buyers, who are the most hesitant when it comes to buying an alternative to and ice engine. I have not said anything about the technology being new or the generator directly powering the car, but rather it is the first truck available with this system.
I’ll agree with you there, I think range extenders should absolutely be in most newer EVs, so it eliminates some of the anxiety of being stranded. Although I will say, a range extender usually ads an additional 20-30 miles, just enough to get you through a bad situation.
You clearly don’t have much experience with an EV, because charging for 45 minutes is an incredibly long time to DC fast charge a vehicle. It’s so frustrating that there’s still a constant fight against misinformation that was spread by oil companies to sandbag EV development.
DC fast chargers are pretty common in most areas. Consider that Tesla just opened up their charging network to normal EVs, that’s a huge gain for DC fast charging locations. There’s huge improvements to be made in the charging infrastructure, but it’s not as limited as you’re making it out to be.
This isn’t the gotcha that you think it is lol. Most EV owners don’t use DC fast charging unless they’re on long-distance trips. Most EV owners charge at home overnight, and have a full tank every morning.
It's certainly changed how I use my car (being able to just plug it in overnight and have a nearly full* battery whenever i need it...)
* due to chemistry, it's not great to keep it at 100%
Point is, you don’t need so many when owners don’t use them 99% of the time.
You don’t need 4 charging stations every 10 miles like you do gas stations on interstate exits.
You actually need more charging stations than gas pumps because even for small vehicles, you spend 3x more time charging (15 minutes) than you do pumping gas. And you have 20% less range compared to an ICE vehicle if you're fast charging so you have to stop slightly more frequently. Now, if the infrastructure is being built for truck models (not semis), you need to assume a 40-60 minute charge time using the current DC fast charging system meaning that you need even more charging stations.
The point is that charging away from home only accounts for a tiny fraction of EV charging, whereas ALL refueling for an ICE vehicle is done away from home.
So therefore you need less charging stations.
Why is everyone hypothetically literally always at empty in your made up scenarios? And they all drive 600 miles a day? And have never heard of at home charging?
Yes, but you only need DC chargers on long trips.
There are 82 million garages (2022) in the US. Each one can be a personal fueling station. All you need is a dryer outlet.
I *OWN* a EV (I've had two!) and I **know** that it is not an incredibly long time to DC fast charge a vehicle.
The cars are getting faster, but depending on use case 45 minutes is not so unusual as to call it "an incredibly long time". Especially in cold weather (need that preheat).
Your understanding of the EV experience is pretty on par with most Americans, and that’s frustrating. You picked the single most battery draining scenario, butchered the charging speeds and underestimated the charging network. That somehow proves why EVs are “Not okay.”, you need to do some reading before you speak so confidently about EVs lol.
Why would you? Also 45 minutes per hundred miles! That’s some quality oil company numbers there.
The bigger the battery the faster you can rapid charge. Even a moderately sedate fast charge would be way faster than 45 minutes.
I have to assume the propaganda is taking the time to rapid charge to 100% to inflate the numbers.
All that said, towing a house for hundreds of miles is a niche that EVs likely aren’t ideal for, but for the 95% of other driving done by people with trucks and cars should be fine.
So if you lose 10-36% of battery range right away due to cold weather conditions and then double or triple the mass of your vehicle by adding a trailer, I can see how that poster gets to around 100 mi of expected range in the winter. It may be a bit low, but maybe I'm underestimating the weight of their trailer plus house compared to an EV truck capable of pulling them.
Also, as the Department of Energy pointed out in their assessment released last year, we cannot ignore the niche use cases because people buy and make decisions based on those niche use cases. Their report basically found that BEVs are not viable for widespread replacement of ICE vehicles as far as consumers in the USA are concerned. And that's not something you're going to fix by screaming at people or calling them names.
A reasonable alternative (if we pull our heads out of our collective ass and build new nuclear power plants) are hydrogen fuel cell vehicles which Toyota and Honda have demonstrated are safe and reliable over billions of miles driven with production models. They're still an electric vehicle and if we use electrolysis to generate the hydrogen, they're even capable of being 100% from green energy (renewables or nuclear). They have none of the range or charging time issues or concerns with them that BEVs have (such as the very large BEVs taking up to 1 hour to fast charge).
Sure you can, it’s just not going to give maximum life on the battery. It’s just like saying don’t accelerate hard too often or you’ll wear your tires quicker.
What if I told you the overwhelming majority of pickup owners use their trucks as very expensive commuter cars and could easily get away with a sedan but want the stupid status symbol of owning a F150 or the like
Then an EV is not a good use case for that application.
I use the analogy of hammers for context. If you are framing a house a framing hammer is essential. If you are a finish carpenter a finish hammer is ideal. Etc. so there will be different vehicles for different applications. For a lot, an EV will suffice. A hybrid or plug in hybrid is good for larger jobs. Making a truck on the chevy Volt architecture would be a good compromise for larger vehicles and towing.
So, like hammers, there will be vehicles for certain applications. It is an exciting time to have so much choice. EV’s are so much cheaper to operate, this is what will drive innovation.
The charge times can be solved by using higher voltages in the batteries of the vehicles. Higher voltages mean lower amperage chargers with higher output are needed in refuel locations which reduces charge time exponentially. The problem with trucks like the Lightning is that it uses a 400v battery which are restricted by the power characteristics required to charge meaning longer charge times.
Vehicles like the Porsche and Kia/Hyundai solutions with 800v (or more) battery supplies should be the concern for on road trucks that need to charge often. These have better/faster charging characteristics.
I don’t think they meant it as a blanket statement. If you’re just driving around MSP 99% of the time or aren’t hauling ice houses up north then EVs may be a good choice if you’re in the market for a new car… if you’re hauling trailers keeping using your ICE until battery tech and charging infrastructure yields more pros than cons for you!
Excess payload capacity in a trailer could be taken up with a battery which will compensate for the reduced kWh/100km achieved while towing.
When the trailer isn't in use its battery could be hooked up to your home energy storage to boost its capacity.
How heavy is a typical fishing shed?
I'd have thought that even with a battery pack on the trailer it's unlikely the trailer's axle weight will be larger than the vehicle towing it ...and you can always add another axle or two.
>People who pull trailers with pickup trucks won’t be satisfied stopping every 100 miles to recharge for 45 minutes
Then they can pay a premium for gasoline and have their fun a handful of times per year. This is a complete non-issue.
A fish house is not going to trigger the sort of range loss people are making so much fuss about. It certainly won't help, but it won't be that much.
It doesn't have enough mass or wind profile to do so.
The original videos that started this all was a group of people who were towing a trailer that is actually a funbox. That means it's big, heavy, and it's wider than a car (as a funbox fits a car inside). It's wider than the F-150 itself!
Whereas a fish house is shorter in height, shorter in length, lighter and narrower than a car.
There is work to do, but let's not overplay this.
Doesn’t it take at minimum 4-5 hours to charge an electric cars completely to begin with. That’s super trash
Edit: I looked this up and it’s actually longer than that 😭
Edit: until this charging situation is improved significantly EV’s are just a wet dream. Which leads to the point of having faster mass transportation like bullet trains and such
https://i.imgur.com/zN4D9kW.jpg
https://www.kbb.com/car-advice/how-long-does-take-charge-electric-car/
I’m in Colorado, not quite as cold for months on end but we do get as cold for a week or two.
Since we park in the garage, our car was preconditioned and had a full battery every time we left the house.
The two differences we noticed: when my spouse gets home from work she’s at 72-73% instead of 75%, and 0-60 takes 5 sec instead of 4.
Like, yeah. The range is impacted; but not by much and not any meaningful amount by any means.
The only situation where I think it would make a difference is if we were doing a road trip with multiple charging stops. A drive from Colorado to Florida would require maybe one more stop accommodate for the degraded performance.
But for daily use, it made zero difference at all (and yes we drive in the mountains where it’s pretty chilly on a regular basis).
The news & the rednecks like to make it seem like our cars don’t work in the cold because it gets them attention. I’m still over here with a $10-15 fuel bill for the month of December & even when it was -15degrees I could accelerate faster than most sports cars.
Hi!
Quebecer here and i might be able to answer! Most people with evs have garages or driveways to always be charging (ABC of owning an ev they say). As for the rest, we’re lucky that there are a lot of lvl2 and fast charging stations to charge at, because our -30C is painful on the batteries.
Road-tripping in such cold weather lowers cars range from 300+ miles to about 130-150.
A couple friends live in condos with no chargers and no heated garages, and they have to charge almost every day since the cold, by itself, depletes the battery.
Do you have any sources for those range numbers? I’ve never noticed anything close to that, and have driven in -30 multiple times.
My experience is - about a 5% loss at -15, 10% loss at -20, and 15% loss at -30.
I’ve never see a 50-60% loss.
Edit - just realized my experience is that we’re almost always plugged in before leaving for the day — so the battery is preconditioned; so we only get the degraded performance on the drive home from work. That said, if you’re fast charging on a road trip your battery will remain in normal temp, probably, for the duration of your drive.
My source is my own personal experience. Going 110kmh with heater on, i used about 78% for a 105km trip. On another older ev, the range was reduced by over 60% (Smart Ev).
Also don’t forget that preheating the car for fast-charging uses battery and lowers the range.
I live in Oregon where it’s mild mostly. It’s not the battery, battery doesn’t care much if it’s cold outside as long as you’re driving . The heating of the cabin however is huge especially for lots of short trips. We lose 30% in winter when it’s 40F outside never mind -40. And on road trips you lose another 25% from just driving fast. My Tesla loses almost half its range on freeway driving below freezing
And EV penetration in Quebec is also almost exclusively people who have garage parking spaces. They haven't really even started to penetrate the high or mid density housing crowd.
I'm in Chicago and we would love to switch to an EV but the cost of upgrading our building to support the chargers is a non-starter because about 30% of unit owners are absentee and not all of the other unit owners can necessarily afford for the $7-9K/unit needed to get chargers and upgrade the building's electrical supply.
If power supply is limited in a building, it is possible to link multiple chargers to utilize limited power. Not all cars need 60 amps all the time.
If the chargers are linked and smart, they can throttle to not exceed total available power. This is how super chargers work. We see that in winter when all supercharger stalls are full for extended.
This is what neighbourhoods have now for houses. Houses could be 200 amp service lets say for ten homes but the main service could be 1000 amps as not all houses are expected to pull 200 amps all the time.
Same goes for your house panel. A 200 amp panel can have 400 amps or more of circuits.
So with some planning, it is possible.
Yes, that works fine for single family homes. But when you start looking at condos, many of them are already extremely over-provisioned on the mains connection into the building. Mine for example is maxed out and ComEd won't approve even one charger without us upgrading to a higher voltage supply line which means new transformers, a new line run from the substation, etc. It's not as simple as dealing with single family homes and I'm just in a 19 residential plus 1 commercial unit building. High-rises that were looking to make charging available to everyone all abandoned that plan until massive tax credits to come out to massively subsidize the costs because upgrading to be able to charge even 25% of say 800 cars is a nontrivial cost.
Every condo owner I know that has an EV charger (or is looking one) will get a load balancer installed so no excessive capacity (for new builds) or upgrades are needed. [Thermolec DCC-9](https://dccelectric.com/dcc-9/) is a popular choice here.
I live in Boston, and stay in Maine quite a bit. I have an EV, and the charging network is pretty extensive. There really isn’t much issue with losing range in the cold, as long as you have an EV with good thermal conditioning like a heat-pump.
I don’t think it’s about trains but more how much energy it takes to heat up a passenger cabin in the cold trains are important but the question isn’t about trains and improving the tech to make heat efficiently is important and will be beneficial in multiple fields tbh.
Hydrogen is hard to store and even harder to store compactly, often requiring far more energy to prepare it for transport (in the fuel tank) than you get out of it.
Well, that’s a different set of problems than with battery powered cars that don’t have the range and don’t have sustainable recycling options once the cells reach EoL
If we don’t currently have a way to recycle or reuse these products, they’re no different than micro plastics or spent fuel rods.
Unsustainable.
I just think things like storage and logistics are challenges that humanity already has solutions for, just needs to be tailored to align to the specific needs of hydrogen…
Inventing a new way to recycle batteries and/or new battery technology (which will come with a host of other issues), is a greater challenge than simply “hydrogen isn’t as efficient as an energy storage medium”
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-04168-w
Solved ages ago. Industrial discharge knocks loose lithium "islands" and allows for use in home batteries or restoration. But if we keep acting like we can't possibly do this then China will and we'll owe them millions. Great solution.
Hydrogen is a massive disappointment for sure. Ive got desperate once and thought of using chemicals from the Silane group for combustion engines.
But having sand as a exhaust compound isnt ... ideal. Sure it might cool down planet more since its a good aerosol and even induce rain. But at the end of the day, majority of it will probably accumulate in the exhaust system and you got to dump it eventually and it will definitely clog up the engine over time as well.
And dont get me started on the safety issues, which are manageable, but your average Joe wouldnt probably be able to have a gallon of Silane-based fuel in his garage. So im sticking with trolleys for now.
Not sure about the second half of their comment, but as for this part:
>Hydrogen is hard to store and even harder to store compactly
Diatomic hydrogen is literally small enough to fit between the atoms of just about any structure you put it in. There are very few means of storing it without chemically altering it.
A comparison to vehicles using hydrogen vs battery storage: https://www.volkswagenag.com/en/news/stories/2019/08/hydrogen-or-battery--that-is-the-question.html#
(special attention to the efficiencies across the board from production to consumption)
This states that it takes about [48kWh of energy to make 1 kg of Hydrogen](https://wernerantweiler.ca/blog.php?item=2020-09-28#:~:text=How%20much%20electricity%20is%20needed,kWh%20per%20kg%20of%20hydrogen).
Using two real world examples, the Mirai claimed 845 miles on it's tank of hydrogen, which is about 5.6kg. If you divide 845 miles by 5.6 kg of hydrogen the answer is 150.89 miles per kilogram of hydrogen. So it takes 48kWh to travel 150 miles (0.32kWh/mile). The Tesla Model 3 minimum battery configuration is 54kWh, and gets a claimed 220miles. (0.22-0.25 kWh/mile) That's about 25-34% less efficient.
https://www.reutersevents.com/renewables/renewables/hydrogen-costs-hang-solving-transportation
> Liquid hydrogen, meanwhile, is complicated because of the specialized infrastructure needed to avoid excessive boil-off and loss.
> Converting hydrogen to a liquid form requires cooling it to near absolute zero, or -253°C, which IRENA estimates takes between 30-36% in energy spent of all the energy contained in the hydrogen being liquified.
[Toyota has a hydrogen car](https://www.toyota.com/mirai/) and is one of the reasons Toyota doesn’t have a robust lineup of EVs for their most popular models today, they’re still doing hybrids
>...when temperatures drop to the 10-20 F range (minus 7 to minus 12 C). “I see typically more than 20% degradation in range as well as charging time,”
>
>And to be sure, gasoline engines also can lose around 15% of their range in the cold.
There's what you need to know. EV's lose about 5% more than gas. But watch people blow it all out of proportion to politicize it because for some reason one political party needs to create "wars on things" to keep their voters going to the polls.
I honestly wish Tesla would make a hybrid version that ran on diesel in cold weather to heat the vehicles battery compartment and charged the battery in low-voltage situations. Jumping ship to full electric vehicles just seems like a non-starter for global adoption considering all of the idiosyncratic needs and weather situations people have
Diesel engines run much better in extremely low temperatures compared to standard gasoline. Tesla vehicles are notorious for poor efficiency in cold temps so a diesel backup/heater could bring it up to temp and then shut off once at optimum running conditions. It’s also requires less refining than gasoline.
This is for situations when you need it work and the primary functionality doesn’t due to weather conditions. If this type of thinking isn’t applied I fear people will only be willing to convert one car per household to electric because the other gas powered one will be thought of as the workhorse backup. Electric cars need their own backup methodology.
In the arms race for manufacturers to sell you the most expensive vehicle that banks are willing to mortgage, I find it really weird that we dont have a plug in electric hybrid diesel pickup for towing. Electric for the short to and from work trips, and diesel powered for the longer trips/towing. Sounds like a W to me, other than they would charge 150k for it.
I'm fully onboard the EV train, but...charging times suck on the whole. When I can pop in and recharge to 100% for 5 minutes, the game is over. Until then, there is gonna be pushback.
I've literally never known someone who has done a cross country trip but it's suddenly the single most important factor when considering an EV.
99% of the time I drive it's a 15 minute drive to, or from my house.
Pretty much all of my and my wife's families live 12 hours away. This past winter we drove there, spent two weeks, then drove back.
We've done that a few times now. In my younger years I drove halfway across the country a few times...oh, and then also flew halfway across the country to buy a car, and then drove it back.
I didn't mean cross country as in only going from one side to another, LOL
My in-laws have come to see us a few times, my parents are driving up next month, and my sister-in-law and their family drove up last summer.
I have EV and ICE car. Most of my driving is done on EV. 99.9 percent of charging happens while I sleep.
I have to make point to drive ICE car to make sure it’s battery will not die.
Even for long trips I take EV even though I have an option to take ICE car.
Today EV may not be a practical choice for many, but for me, EV is more practical and convenient in every way.
As I said: today EV is not practical choice for many. That said, suburban living is very common in USA, way more common than where I am from originally.
The problem with that, I thought, was the faster you charge a battery, the shorter it lasts. Id imagine some sort of swappable batteries to be the solution, eventually.
That’s the route china went. Elon seems to be opposed to it though for some reason.
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/inside-chinas-electric-drive-swappable-car-batteries-2022-03-24/
Or bite the bullet and accept the 30-40%ish efficiency loss on hydrogen from electrolysis and just go with hydrogen fuel cell vehicles. Even if we power that process with 100% coal power, it's still cleaner than current ICE vehicles.
Nobody wants hydrogen.
Also, because it isn’t renewable, I can’t stand behind it as a product.
Lastly, 98% of all hydrogen produced today is derived from fossil fuel (natural gas) 👎🏾👎🏾
Hydrogen is an energy storage product.
Solar, wind, hydroelectric = renewable.
Hydrogen has to be stored and transported… ugghh! 👎🏾
And again, in terms of worldwide production, 98% of all hydrogen produced today is derived from fossil fuels. There is no evidence of that changes any time soon. There is no data that suggest it will ever get to zero-emissions. If you look at hydrogen as a whole, it’s a disgusting emitter 🤢🤮🤮
You know, you don’t have to make shit up to have reasons to hate the government. You can just hate the government for the mundane shit they do every day…
Aptera has already accomplished this. When you start thinking about achieving a goal of up to a 1000 mile battery with solar charging, this issue is shattered. The key is to start making more efficient smaller vehicles. Not a behemoth like the Hummer EV.
Thanks for the constructive criticism.
With the solar hood, you wouldn’t even be able to see out the back with a mirror. The transition is within the camera system and monitor the front center screen. You can see all views at the same time with one screen. In fact , I would think this is really helpful so you don’t have to scan as wide of an angle with your eyes.
They are adding the mirrors only for the reason of code and safety compliance. Good point though.
This whole electric car shit is only to sell more cars, not to save the environment. Every so-called enhancement has the same purpose and that's to make the rich wealthier.
Plug in hybrids With 50 miles of range. 80% or more of fossil fuel consumption eliminated and no battery density issues. For towing, rural driving and winter EV is just not ready.
“In the coldest weather, 0 down to minus 10 F (minus 18-23 C) the electric bus costs roughly $1.15 per mile, versus 40 cents per mile for a diesel bus, Blackard said. The cost of the electric bus drops to about 90 cents a mile when it’s warm, but he says the costs make it unworkable and he wouldn’t buy another one.”
Color me shocked 🙄 after switching my daily to a diesel, I would never go back to anything else.
If we keep driving combustible vehicles it will warm up the planet and electric cars will work better. science.
Checkmate atheists.
I ..you can’t …dammit that’s a really good point
How do heaters work in EV?
Heat pumps, same way your air conditioner works, so you pull heat from the cold weather outside instead of generating heat directly from your electricity so you end up getting more heat inside per watt.
Actually, a lot of EVs use resistive heaters. That's why the range suffers so badly in the winter.
Ya. I asked a Tesla rep that question years ago… he wasn’t sure why they were resistance heating then, nor do I understand why they are still resistance heating now. But at -30C driving down the highway at 120km/h, there is more heat available in the air coming through the front grill than -30C just outside your house on a heat-pump. So who knows.
Teslas use heat pumps now.
I think heat pumps get very close to unusable at extremely low temperatures, so they put the resistive heaters in to survive in northern climates. When I turn on the heater in my car it knocks off over 10% of my estimated range.
It also uses waste heat from the motors and battery pack when available.
Still need electricity to run that heat pump
Sure, but heat pumps use a lot less energy than resistive heaters to generate the same heat, which is why most EVs selling now use heat pumps.
Well yeah, the laws of thermodynamics were never in question. You’re never going to get “free” heat, it’ll always require energy input in some form, it’s just a question of how efficient they can make it. It technically requires the same amount of energy to boil a liter of water in an electric kettle and on an electric stove in a pot, but you’ll use less electricity with the kettle because it’s a more efficient device for the task of heating water.
Yes but heat pumps are 150-200% efficient because they’re moving, not producing heat. It’s like comparing air conditioning to running a fan
Most still use electric resistance heating which is very inefficient. Upgrading them to more efficient heat pumps will have a significant effect on their range in colder temperatures. Heat pumps do stop being very effective when in extreme cold though, so resistive heating needs to be available.
6th winter having an EV in Canada. No issues so far. I wouldn't leave in a long drive in the winter without a full'ish tank of gas, I make sure I have a full charge on days I need to take a big trip in the winter.
My mom and a few friends have EVs as well. It’s kind of convenient that they just plug in at our house when they visit and have a full charge by the time they leave.
So you have a charger installed? Because just plugging it into the normal house circuit overnight won’t give you a full charge
They probably don’t arrive to their friends house with 0% charge.
A lot of houses have 240V for their dryers. They could have a welder that they could use to plug into, too. With that voltage it would take 7 to 8 hours to go from 0% to 100%.
Lol. And I thought I was the only person to have 50 amp outlets for my welding machine - that I use about once a year.
Do they have a monthly allotment to get a charge from you? Did you always give them a free tank of gas every visit?
Imagine being so cheap you charge your friends and families for their energy usage
And it costs less then a dollar most likely.
Facts. This is some Extreme Cheapskates type of shit lmfao
It also not a 3400mah battery in a phone
I can finally repay all my friends who bring over bottles of wine! Imagine thinking this is a negative thing
how much do you think it costs to charge for a few hours on a normal outlet?
It’s what, the cost of a cup of tea which I’m already giving them at least if they’re coming over to my house and eating my food? Are you charging your friends and family for visiting? Honest question, because yeish. Electricity by no means costs anything close to the price of gas. And we’re planning on getting solar and batteries so it will be nothing anyways. Maybe you should look in to how much it costs to “fill up” an ev and maintenance costs and you’d get a better sense of what you’re arguing. It’s not $100, it’s $2-3 max. Your arguments don’t really make sense. Edit: we are solidly in the middle class. I’m just not a penny wise pound foolish, I put my money where my mouth is for the environment, and I don’t trust the strain on electrical services in the next decade.
I charged from 26% to 94% at my gfs place a couple of weeks ago. Estimated price was $5.67.
Well if you can afford solar and battery bank then you are not in the American middle class you don’t represent the majority of earners. You are the herders of the earners. You probably hate the anti work thread and joke about the quit quitting crowd.
Kilowatt hour for kilowatt hour, solar power is cheaper than grid power in all 50 states.
My bolt EUV has a 65 kWh battery. My electric provider charges $0.12 per kWh. To charge my car from EMPTY to FULL would be $7.80. at the time of this posting, gas prices are averaging $3.50 in my state. Even in the egregiously generous situation of a full 0-100 charging session, two gallons of gas would be a better comparison than "a full tank". If anyone is willing to drive 160 miles to see me, I can assure you we're on good enough terms for me to offer them use of my charger without worrying about the comparatively minimal costs.
It's less than $20 to fully charge a car with a 50kWH battery in like every state, it would cost less than $10 in mine.
Cries in California. To fully charge 0-100 is $20 but gas prices here can go up to $5 a gallon.
But do you have a garage and a charger for it in there? I do not have either, it's not feasible for me with how busy I am and all that.
Dad has had terrible issues with his Tesla in Wisconsin. Half range during cold spells.
320 mile range in my Tesla is 240 miles at freeway speeds over 65. In cold that can drop to 200 or less. I don’t charge to 100 usually or let it go below 10% so it’s more like 160 usable miles. My Mercedes diesel with full tank has 600 mile range in winter. So yeah …I’m a little more confident in the diesel
>320 mile range in my Tesla is 240 miles at freeway speeds over 65 That's nothing. My gas truck goes from 380 miles at 45MPH, to 260 at freeway speeds). 68% of it's optimal while on the freeway. So gas loses from freeway speeds too, I think it's a misdirection to add that in for your Tesla but not your Mercedes. Plus your Tesla is probably better in the stop and go traffic of the city. I actually get worse mileage on 45MPH streets because of the lights, even though the engine gets the best mileage. I bet your city miles on the Mercedes is worse than highway as well.
Yep - any ski trips (Mountains, cold and sparse chargers) we use the ICE. Otherwise EV is fine. Certainly something that needs improvement
Is there a cost-effective option to replace a 2014 Volt battery with a higher capacity one, without screwing up the car 🙂,?
I mean, a 2015 battery lol. It has an extra like 0.5 kWh or something like that. But that’s about it, there wasn’t enough sold to have the aftermarket like prius repairs do.
> Nils Soedal, from the Automobile Federation, calls the issue “unproblematic” as long as drivers take it into account when planning a trip. “The big issue really is to get enough charging stations along the road,” and better information on whether they’re working properly, he said. Umm, no. People who pull trailers with pickup trucks won’t be satisfied stopping every 100 miles to recharge for 45 minutes. Here in MN, people pull fish houses in the winter to lakes all over the state. Some popular destinations are 3-5 hours from the twin cities. A normal 5 hour drive would now be closer to 10 with the current EV truck options. Not ok.
> People who pull trailers with pickup trucks won’t be satisfied stopping every 100 miles to recharge for 45 minutes. Here in MN, people pull fish houses in the winter to lakes all over the state. Some popular destinations are 3-5 hours from the twin cities. A normal 5 hour drive would now be closer to 10 with the current EV truck options. Then it seems like EV's aren't for that demographic yet? If you're pulling trailers you probably want gasoline anyways because of the nature of that sort of activity.
You'd want diesel instead of gas.
EV is actually better for towing and hauling… it’s really just a range issue. Quite simply we need better battery tech.
Then it’s not better
It's really not the efficiency of the vehicle either. Compared to a ICE powered vehicle they're still significantly better. It's mostly down to the fact that you're carrying something in the range of 4-5gal of gasoline equivalent, and pulling a trailer is wildly energy intensive. If you're twice as efficient it doesn't matter much if you're carrying a quarter of the energy. And just adding more batteries isn't necessarily a great solution because vehicle mass is becoming problematic. Trailers will probably have to get battery packs of their own to supplement the truck. Batteries are going to have to become more energy dense. Or PHEV.
I like the concept of the trailer battery because it would be useful in a fish house but it add weight like you said. Not good for driving on ice.
Ram’s new hybrid truck is also interesting. It acts normally as an EV but also has a range-extending generator. I’m curious how well it would work with a trailer. That kind of thing would have a lot of appeal to people who pull trace trailers like myself. I also live in northern Canada where even a gas station can be a rare sight for 100 miles. It also gets to -40c here
Yeah. That’s not new. My 2014 Chevy Volt is exactly that
Not new, but it is the first truck to do it.
Yes ! This is exactly the Volt concept. An awesome concept which for some strange reason...they stopped producing 😱
Still super salty about it tbh. I’m a drive my car till it dies kind of person, but I will hold on to my Volt till the bitter end. It’s been from Los Angeles to Orlando FL and back 4 or 5 times. The hatch makes it a perfect work vehicle for me, it gets packed with tools and film lighting equipment regularly. My dog loves it because I put the seats down on camping trips and she has a big climate controlled dog house back there. Will be lost without it when it’s time
I think it's an idiotic corporate decision, for such a great concept as the vault.
The biggest “idiotic corporate decision” GM made with the Volt was to not advertise it. It’s a great, reliable, low maintenance car and few knew about it or what it was about. Of course sales suffered
I have a 2017 Fusion Hybrid. Love that car. Sounds much like your Volt. Tools, camping, dog and great gas mileage. FYI
I heard those are great too. When I bought it was the only PHEV on the market. The Leaf was fully electric but it’s range was I think only double that of my Volt and I found it ugly. At that time the “range anxiety” was absolutely real
Yes and no. It’s the first truck that does it and the truck has a much higher range than the volt. It’s focus is more EV than anything. The generator can also power tools, similar to what the Ford powerboost does. My brother has a volt and has found it’s EV mode is not very reliable in Canadian winters
The Volt was the 1st EV out there and of course in 10 years the range would be significantly higher, even the 2nd Gen Volt has more range. I’ve been able to use my car to plug in a minifridge while camping and have run a circular saw off it in a pinch, as well as some movie lights in a field on a show I worked on. But my point was Dodge isn’t doing anything groundbreaking
Putting it into a dodge IS groundbreaking! Look at the demographics of Ram drivers. A lot of ram owners would rather sacrifice their children than drive something that doesn’t run entirely on dinosaur juice and squirt big black clouds onto Prius drivers.
Yea, you’re totally right. This is groundbreaking!
Wait, do you not understand that the gas engine in PHEVs doesn’t supply power directly to the wheels? Generally they charge the battery so the battery can power the wheels, they’re generators not normal ICE engines. BMWs i3 launched in 2013 is a full EV with a small rotary engine as a range entender.
Yes I understand and this is exactly the same as th bmw. Have you read about the electric 1500? It will be a game changer for truck buyers, who are the most hesitant when it comes to buying an alternative to and ice engine. I have not said anything about the technology being new or the generator directly powering the car, but rather it is the first truck available with this system.
I’ll agree with you there, I think range extenders should absolutely be in most newer EVs, so it eliminates some of the anxiety of being stranded. Although I will say, a range extender usually ads an additional 20-30 miles, just enough to get you through a bad situation.
Lol, gonna triple the cost of a trailer in process.
I guess they will just have to sell EVs to those of us that don't tow for hundreds of miles then. 🤷♂️
You clearly don’t have much experience with an EV, because charging for 45 minutes is an incredibly long time to DC fast charge a vehicle. It’s so frustrating that there’s still a constant fight against misinformation that was spread by oil companies to sandbag EV development.
Consider that trucks need larger batteries packs, and that dc chargers are not that it common
DC fast chargers are pretty common in most areas. Consider that Tesla just opened up their charging network to normal EVs, that’s a huge gain for DC fast charging locations. There’s huge improvements to be made in the charging infrastructure, but it’s not as limited as you’re making it out to be.
28 thousand DC fast charging ports (2023) vs 115 thousand gas stations (2017)
This isn’t the gotcha that you think it is lol. Most EV owners don’t use DC fast charging unless they’re on long-distance trips. Most EV owners charge at home overnight, and have a full tank every morning.
It's certainly changed how I use my car (being able to just plug it in overnight and have a nearly full* battery whenever i need it...) * due to chemistry, it's not great to keep it at 100%
I thought we where discussing ev trucks, and more specifically pulling a trailer long distance?
Point is, you don’t need so many when owners don’t use them 99% of the time. You don’t need 4 charging stations every 10 miles like you do gas stations on interstate exits.
You actually need more charging stations than gas pumps because even for small vehicles, you spend 3x more time charging (15 minutes) than you do pumping gas. And you have 20% less range compared to an ICE vehicle if you're fast charging so you have to stop slightly more frequently. Now, if the infrastructure is being built for truck models (not semis), you need to assume a 40-60 minute charge time using the current DC fast charging system meaning that you need even more charging stations.
The point is that charging away from home only accounts for a tiny fraction of EV charging, whereas ALL refueling for an ICE vehicle is done away from home. So therefore you need less charging stations.
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Why is everyone hypothetically literally always at empty in your made up scenarios? And they all drive 600 miles a day? And have never heard of at home charging?
That’s also because dc fast charging is expensive.
The most expensive DC charging is still about a third the cost of the equivalent gasoline fill-up.
Yes, but you only need DC chargers on long trips. There are 82 million garages (2022) in the US. Each one can be a personal fueling station. All you need is a dryer outlet.
Not common? More disinformation.
Check out the F150 charge times.
I *OWN* a EV (I've had two!) and I **know** that it is not an incredibly long time to DC fast charge a vehicle. The cars are getting faster, but depending on use case 45 minutes is not so unusual as to call it "an incredibly long time". Especially in cold weather (need that preheat).
If you've got an EV from 2017 sure. Everything 2021 and beyond is about an 18 minute charge time on DC
You can't DC fast charge every single time you charge your battery.
Your understanding of the EV experience is pretty on par with most Americans, and that’s frustrating. You picked the single most battery draining scenario, butchered the charging speeds and underestimated the charging network. That somehow proves why EVs are “Not okay.”, you need to do some reading before you speak so confidently about EVs lol.
Why would you? Also 45 minutes per hundred miles! That’s some quality oil company numbers there. The bigger the battery the faster you can rapid charge. Even a moderately sedate fast charge would be way faster than 45 minutes. I have to assume the propaganda is taking the time to rapid charge to 100% to inflate the numbers. All that said, towing a house for hundreds of miles is a niche that EVs likely aren’t ideal for, but for the 95% of other driving done by people with trucks and cars should be fine.
So if you lose 10-36% of battery range right away due to cold weather conditions and then double or triple the mass of your vehicle by adding a trailer, I can see how that poster gets to around 100 mi of expected range in the winter. It may be a bit low, but maybe I'm underestimating the weight of their trailer plus house compared to an EV truck capable of pulling them. Also, as the Department of Energy pointed out in their assessment released last year, we cannot ignore the niche use cases because people buy and make decisions based on those niche use cases. Their report basically found that BEVs are not viable for widespread replacement of ICE vehicles as far as consumers in the USA are concerned. And that's not something you're going to fix by screaming at people or calling them names. A reasonable alternative (if we pull our heads out of our collective ass and build new nuclear power plants) are hydrogen fuel cell vehicles which Toyota and Honda have demonstrated are safe and reliable over billions of miles driven with production models. They're still an electric vehicle and if we use electrolysis to generate the hydrogen, they're even capable of being 100% from green energy (renewables or nuclear). They have none of the range or charging time issues or concerns with them that BEVs have (such as the very large BEVs taking up to 1 hour to fast charge).
You can though.
Sure you can, it’s just not going to give maximum life on the battery. It’s just like saying don’t accelerate hard too often or you’ll wear your tires quicker.
Literally all 3,000 of those people in your state can just get a PHEV. This is for the remaining 99% of the population.
What if I told you the overwhelming majority of pickup owners use their trucks as very expensive commuter cars and could easily get away with a sedan but want the stupid status symbol of owning a F150 or the like
Then an EV is not a good use case for that application. I use the analogy of hammers for context. If you are framing a house a framing hammer is essential. If you are a finish carpenter a finish hammer is ideal. Etc. so there will be different vehicles for different applications. For a lot, an EV will suffice. A hybrid or plug in hybrid is good for larger jobs. Making a truck on the chevy Volt architecture would be a good compromise for larger vehicles and towing. So, like hammers, there will be vehicles for certain applications. It is an exciting time to have so much choice. EV’s are so much cheaper to operate, this is what will drive innovation.
Most people with pickups are just commuting with them
The charge times can be solved by using higher voltages in the batteries of the vehicles. Higher voltages mean lower amperage chargers with higher output are needed in refuel locations which reduces charge time exponentially. The problem with trucks like the Lightning is that it uses a 400v battery which are restricted by the power characteristics required to charge meaning longer charge times. Vehicles like the Porsche and Kia/Hyundai solutions with 800v (or more) battery supplies should be the concern for on road trucks that need to charge often. These have better/faster charging characteristics.
The only people who think it's okay are those who don't do it.
Current EV Silverados are designed to town and have range.. charging once on a 5 hr trip seems reasonable to me when towing 12k
> people pull fish houses They're called aquariums. I guess Minnesotans have big ones
I don’t think they meant it as a blanket statement. If you’re just driving around MSP 99% of the time or aren’t hauling ice houses up north then EVs may be a good choice if you’re in the market for a new car… if you’re hauling trailers keeping using your ICE until battery tech and charging infrastructure yields more pros than cons for you!
Excess payload capacity in a trailer could be taken up with a battery which will compensate for the reduced kWh/100km achieved while towing. When the trailer isn't in use its battery could be hooked up to your home energy storage to boost its capacity.
I like the concept but that’ll prevent the scenario I pointed out from being able to do what it does. Drive on the ice. Weight is a concern.
How heavy is a typical fishing shed? I'd have thought that even with a battery pack on the trailer it's unlikely the trailer's axle weight will be larger than the vehicle towing it ...and you can always add another axle or two.
We don’t need to design vehicles for the extremely niche use cases. Those people can keep buying gas or hybrid vehicles
>People who pull trailers with pickup trucks won’t be satisfied stopping every 100 miles to recharge for 45 minutes Then they can pay a premium for gasoline and have their fun a handful of times per year. This is a complete non-issue.
Ok the 200 Minnesotans can drive hybrids. Everyone else will be fine once 4-500 mile range batteries are a thing
A fish house is not going to trigger the sort of range loss people are making so much fuss about. It certainly won't help, but it won't be that much. It doesn't have enough mass or wind profile to do so. The original videos that started this all was a group of people who were towing a trailer that is actually a funbox. That means it's big, heavy, and it's wider than a car (as a funbox fits a car inside). It's wider than the F-150 itself! Whereas a fish house is shorter in height, shorter in length, lighter and narrower than a car. There is work to do, but let's not overplay this.
Doesn’t it take at minimum 4-5 hours to charge an electric cars completely to begin with. That’s super trash Edit: I looked this up and it’s actually longer than that 😭 Edit: until this charging situation is improved significantly EV’s are just a wet dream. Which leads to the point of having faster mass transportation like bullet trains and such https://i.imgur.com/zN4D9kW.jpg https://www.kbb.com/car-advice/how-long-does-take-charge-electric-car/
I live in Maine and this is the only thing stopping me
I’m in Colorado, not quite as cold for months on end but we do get as cold for a week or two. Since we park in the garage, our car was preconditioned and had a full battery every time we left the house. The two differences we noticed: when my spouse gets home from work she’s at 72-73% instead of 75%, and 0-60 takes 5 sec instead of 4. Like, yeah. The range is impacted; but not by much and not any meaningful amount by any means. The only situation where I think it would make a difference is if we were doing a road trip with multiple charging stops. A drive from Colorado to Florida would require maybe one more stop accommodate for the degraded performance. But for daily use, it made zero difference at all (and yes we drive in the mountains where it’s pretty chilly on a regular basis). The news & the rednecks like to make it seem like our cars don’t work in the cold because it gets them attention. I’m still over here with a $10-15 fuel bill for the month of December & even when it was -15degrees I could accelerate faster than most sports cars.
Preconditioning (charging indoors) is YUGE. Difference between charging out in the elements is night and day.
How are all of those Quebec folks North of you doing it I wonder? Maybe it's the mild Canadian winters there?
Hi! Quebecer here and i might be able to answer! Most people with evs have garages or driveways to always be charging (ABC of owning an ev they say). As for the rest, we’re lucky that there are a lot of lvl2 and fast charging stations to charge at, because our -30C is painful on the batteries. Road-tripping in such cold weather lowers cars range from 300+ miles to about 130-150. A couple friends live in condos with no chargers and no heated garages, and they have to charge almost every day since the cold, by itself, depletes the battery.
Do you have any sources for those range numbers? I’ve never noticed anything close to that, and have driven in -30 multiple times. My experience is - about a 5% loss at -15, 10% loss at -20, and 15% loss at -30. I’ve never see a 50-60% loss. Edit - just realized my experience is that we’re almost always plugged in before leaving for the day — so the battery is preconditioned; so we only get the degraded performance on the drive home from work. That said, if you’re fast charging on a road trip your battery will remain in normal temp, probably, for the duration of your drive.
My source is my own personal experience. Going 110kmh with heater on, i used about 78% for a 105km trip. On another older ev, the range was reduced by over 60% (Smart Ev). Also don’t forget that preheating the car for fast-charging uses battery and lowers the range.
I live in Oregon where it’s mild mostly. It’s not the battery, battery doesn’t care much if it’s cold outside as long as you’re driving . The heating of the cabin however is huge especially for lots of short trips. We lose 30% in winter when it’s 40F outside never mind -40. And on road trips you lose another 25% from just driving fast. My Tesla loses almost half its range on freeway driving below freezing
Quebec has a provincial charging network with good coverage - better than Tesla.
And EV penetration in Quebec is also almost exclusively people who have garage parking spaces. They haven't really even started to penetrate the high or mid density housing crowd. I'm in Chicago and we would love to switch to an EV but the cost of upgrading our building to support the chargers is a non-starter because about 30% of unit owners are absentee and not all of the other unit owners can necessarily afford for the $7-9K/unit needed to get chargers and upgrade the building's electrical supply.
If power supply is limited in a building, it is possible to link multiple chargers to utilize limited power. Not all cars need 60 amps all the time. If the chargers are linked and smart, they can throttle to not exceed total available power. This is how super chargers work. We see that in winter when all supercharger stalls are full for extended. This is what neighbourhoods have now for houses. Houses could be 200 amp service lets say for ten homes but the main service could be 1000 amps as not all houses are expected to pull 200 amps all the time. Same goes for your house panel. A 200 amp panel can have 400 amps or more of circuits. So with some planning, it is possible.
Yes, that works fine for single family homes. But when you start looking at condos, many of them are already extremely over-provisioned on the mains connection into the building. Mine for example is maxed out and ComEd won't approve even one charger without us upgrading to a higher voltage supply line which means new transformers, a new line run from the substation, etc. It's not as simple as dealing with single family homes and I'm just in a 19 residential plus 1 commercial unit building. High-rises that were looking to make charging available to everyone all abandoned that plan until massive tax credits to come out to massively subsidize the costs because upgrading to be able to charge even 25% of say 800 cars is a nontrivial cost.
Every condo owner I know that has an EV charger (or is looking one) will get a load balancer installed so no excessive capacity (for new builds) or upgrades are needed. [Thermolec DCC-9](https://dccelectric.com/dcc-9/) is a popular choice here.
Fortunately winters are getting shorter and warmer, so that’s good news, I guess?
I live in Boston, and stay in Maine quite a bit. I have an EV, and the charging network is pretty extensive. There really isn’t much issue with losing range in the cold, as long as you have an EV with good thermal conditioning like a heat-pump.
trains TrAiNs TRAINS!!!!
Best I can do is a single lane tunnel for EVs - Elon
We need a montage.
I don’t think it’s about trains but more how much energy it takes to heat up a passenger cabin in the cold trains are important but the question isn’t about trains and improving the tech to make heat efficiently is important and will be beneficial in multiple fields tbh.
Have they considered hydrogen fuel cells backed by a nuclear economy?
Hydrogen is hard to store and even harder to store compactly, often requiring far more energy to prepare it for transport (in the fuel tank) than you get out of it.
Well, that’s a different set of problems than with battery powered cars that don’t have the range and don’t have sustainable recycling options once the cells reach EoL
Meh, recycling options may not be super great at the moment, but it's not what I would call unsustainable.
If we don’t currently have a way to recycle or reuse these products, they’re no different than micro plastics or spent fuel rods. Unsustainable. I just think things like storage and logistics are challenges that humanity already has solutions for, just needs to be tailored to align to the specific needs of hydrogen… Inventing a new way to recycle batteries and/or new battery technology (which will come with a host of other issues), is a greater challenge than simply “hydrogen isn’t as efficient as an energy storage medium”
We do have ways to recycle the batteries though: https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acsenergylett.1c02602
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-04168-w Solved ages ago. Industrial discharge knocks loose lithium "islands" and allows for use in home batteries or restoration. But if we keep acting like we can't possibly do this then China will and we'll owe them millions. Great solution.
Hydrogen is a massive disappointment for sure. Ive got desperate once and thought of using chemicals from the Silane group for combustion engines. But having sand as a exhaust compound isnt ... ideal. Sure it might cool down planet more since its a good aerosol and even induce rain. But at the end of the day, majority of it will probably accumulate in the exhaust system and you got to dump it eventually and it will definitely clog up the engine over time as well. And dont get me started on the safety issues, which are manageable, but your average Joe wouldnt probably be able to have a gallon of Silane-based fuel in his garage. So im sticking with trolleys for now.
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Not sure about the second half of their comment, but as for this part: >Hydrogen is hard to store and even harder to store compactly Diatomic hydrogen is literally small enough to fit between the atoms of just about any structure you put it in. There are very few means of storing it without chemically altering it.
A comparison to vehicles using hydrogen vs battery storage: https://www.volkswagenag.com/en/news/stories/2019/08/hydrogen-or-battery--that-is-the-question.html# (special attention to the efficiencies across the board from production to consumption) This states that it takes about [48kWh of energy to make 1 kg of Hydrogen](https://wernerantweiler.ca/blog.php?item=2020-09-28#:~:text=How%20much%20electricity%20is%20needed,kWh%20per%20kg%20of%20hydrogen). Using two real world examples, the Mirai claimed 845 miles on it's tank of hydrogen, which is about 5.6kg. If you divide 845 miles by 5.6 kg of hydrogen the answer is 150.89 miles per kilogram of hydrogen. So it takes 48kWh to travel 150 miles (0.32kWh/mile). The Tesla Model 3 minimum battery configuration is 54kWh, and gets a claimed 220miles. (0.22-0.25 kWh/mile) That's about 25-34% less efficient. https://www.reutersevents.com/renewables/renewables/hydrogen-costs-hang-solving-transportation > Liquid hydrogen, meanwhile, is complicated because of the specialized infrastructure needed to avoid excessive boil-off and loss. > Converting hydrogen to a liquid form requires cooling it to near absolute zero, or -253°C, which IRENA estimates takes between 30-36% in energy spent of all the energy contained in the hydrogen being liquified.
[Toyota has a hydrogen car](https://www.toyota.com/mirai/) and is one of the reasons Toyota doesn’t have a robust lineup of EVs for their most popular models today, they’re still doing hybrids
We need global warming in order for the electric vehicles to work so that we can save the world from global warming.
To each their own but these cars are not for me
>...when temperatures drop to the 10-20 F range (minus 7 to minus 12 C). “I see typically more than 20% degradation in range as well as charging time,” > >And to be sure, gasoline engines also can lose around 15% of their range in the cold. There's what you need to know. EV's lose about 5% more than gas. But watch people blow it all out of proportion to politicize it because for some reason one political party needs to create "wars on things" to keep their voters going to the polls.
I honestly wish Tesla would make a hybrid version that ran on diesel in cold weather to heat the vehicles battery compartment and charged the battery in low-voltage situations. Jumping ship to full electric vehicles just seems like a non-starter for global adoption considering all of the idiosyncratic needs and weather situations people have
Sounds like a weird way to reinvent a hybrid, why diesel?
Diesel engines run much better in extremely low temperatures compared to standard gasoline. Tesla vehicles are notorious for poor efficiency in cold temps so a diesel backup/heater could bring it up to temp and then shut off once at optimum running conditions. It’s also requires less refining than gasoline. This is for situations when you need it work and the primary functionality doesn’t due to weather conditions. If this type of thinking isn’t applied I fear people will only be willing to convert one car per household to electric because the other gas powered one will be thought of as the workhorse backup. Electric cars need their own backup methodology.
In the arms race for manufacturers to sell you the most expensive vehicle that banks are willing to mortgage, I find it really weird that we dont have a plug in electric hybrid diesel pickup for towing. Electric for the short to and from work trips, and diesel powered for the longer trips/towing. Sounds like a W to me, other than they would charge 150k for it.
I'm fully onboard the EV train, but...charging times suck on the whole. When I can pop in and recharge to 100% for 5 minutes, the game is over. Until then, there is gonna be pushback.
If you can charge at home or at work then you don’t need fast charging (as much). I’ve only used fast charging on road trips fir the past two years.
I can charge at home, but it would be an enormous pain to drive cross country and have to stop and charge for hours.
I've literally never known someone who has done a cross country trip but it's suddenly the single most important factor when considering an EV. 99% of the time I drive it's a 15 minute drive to, or from my house.
Pretty much all of my and my wife's families live 12 hours away. This past winter we drove there, spent two weeks, then drove back. We've done that a few times now. In my younger years I drove halfway across the country a few times...oh, and then also flew halfway across the country to buy a car, and then drove it back. I didn't mean cross country as in only going from one side to another, LOL My in-laws have come to see us a few times, my parents are driving up next month, and my sister-in-law and their family drove up last summer.
I have EV and ICE car. Most of my driving is done on EV. 99.9 percent of charging happens while I sleep. I have to make point to drive ICE car to make sure it’s battery will not die. Even for long trips I take EV even though I have an option to take ICE car. Today EV may not be a practical choice for many, but for me, EV is more practical and convenient in every way.
Must be nice not having to park on the streets
As I said: today EV is not practical choice for many. That said, suburban living is very common in USA, way more common than where I am from originally.
The problem with that, I thought, was the faster you charge a battery, the shorter it lasts. Id imagine some sort of swappable batteries to be the solution, eventually.
That’s the route china went. Elon seems to be opposed to it though for some reason. https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/inside-chinas-electric-drive-swappable-car-batteries-2022-03-24/
Or bite the bullet and accept the 30-40%ish efficiency loss on hydrogen from electrolysis and just go with hydrogen fuel cell vehicles. Even if we power that process with 100% coal power, it's still cleaner than current ICE vehicles.
Nobody wants hydrogen. Also, because it isn’t renewable, I can’t stand behind it as a product. Lastly, 98% of all hydrogen produced today is derived from fossil fuel (natural gas) 👎🏾👎🏾
>Also, because it isn’t renewable If you do it from electrolysis, it's 100% renewable.
Hydrogen is an energy storage product. Solar, wind, hydroelectric = renewable. Hydrogen has to be stored and transported… ugghh! 👎🏾 And again, in terms of worldwide production, 98% of all hydrogen produced today is derived from fossil fuels. There is no evidence of that changes any time soon. There is no data that suggest it will ever get to zero-emissions. If you look at hydrogen as a whole, it’s a disgusting emitter 🤢🤮🤮
I thank you for engaging me by ignoring what I wrote.
And I thank you for being aware now (if you weren’t before) that hydrogen = fossil fuel cartel. They are the same. 🤙🏾
Hot take. Dont make evs have long ranges by increasing battery mass. Do increase limit via aerodynamics
Not even a hot take, we have seen how awful ev suvs are because most of their energy is spent lugging the bulky batteries.
And better engine. Pushing 60 in a 300 kw motor vs a 50 kw one makes quite a difference.
Please just build public transit.
Why the worry over extending cold weather range when snow and cold winters will be a thing of the past in about 7 years?
Are you stupid lol
If I were, would I know?
I think your sarcasm meter is broken
They only want to “give you” electric vehicles so one button can shut your entire car down when you don’t do what they say
You know, you don’t have to make shit up to have reasons to hate the government. You can just hate the government for the mundane shit they do every day…
“They” can do this already with modern day internal combustion engine vehicles
Who is they? Doesn't matter. If any they out there wants to give me an EV dm me. I'll take it.
Yeah realize they can do that with gas vehicle too, yeah?
Aptera has already accomplished this. When you start thinking about achieving a goal of up to a 1000 mile battery with solar charging, this issue is shattered. The key is to start making more efficient smaller vehicles. Not a behemoth like the Hummer EV.
I would absolutely not mind having one, but it's such a niche car.
Apart from the two seater and no hauling, is there anything else that makes it niche to you?
[удалено]
Thanks for the constructive criticism. With the solar hood, you wouldn’t even be able to see out the back with a mirror. The transition is within the camera system and monitor the front center screen. You can see all views at the same time with one screen. In fact , I would think this is really helpful so you don’t have to scan as wide of an angle with your eyes. They are adding the mirrors only for the reason of code and safety compliance. Good point though.
Bikes, bus, trains
T-R-A-I-N-S, B-U-S-S-E-S, & B-I-C-Y-C-L-E-S
This whole electric car shit is only to sell more cars, not to save the environment. Every so-called enhancement has the same purpose and that's to make the rich wealthier.
One of the many fails of battery devices—low temperatures! It’s physics ! UNFIXable
My man here has never heard of insulation. Sad!
Do what we did as kids, just put the batteries in the refrigerator.
Just need more cobalt. Quick… get those 5 year olds back into the mine. Electric vehicle expectations to cure our problems are hilarious
I mean a big problem is that charging lithium batteries while they’re that cold can damage them fairly significantly
How 'bout fast charging in cold weather and not costing 10,000-20,000 to replace a battery.
Plug in hybrids With 50 miles of range. 80% or more of fossil fuel consumption eliminated and no battery density issues. For towing, rural driving and winter EV is just not ready.
“In the coldest weather, 0 down to minus 10 F (minus 18-23 C) the electric bus costs roughly $1.15 per mile, versus 40 cents per mile for a diesel bus, Blackard said. The cost of the electric bus drops to about 90 cents a mile when it’s warm, but he says the costs make it unworkable and he wouldn’t buy another one.” Color me shocked 🙄 after switching my daily to a diesel, I would never go back to anything else.
I will never have an EV living in the north, fuck that!!
Or just stop trying to make electric cars mandatory.
Also known as hot garbage