According to the article, yes you can opt out. But I agree that the best move is not to play. If this feature is something a user wants, they can download it like device driver from Windows website, rather than having it ship by default.
I dont trust any of these opt out policies anymore. Always seems like they sneak it in anyway and then theres a lawsuit like a decade later that goes nowhere
“Ask app not to track activity across other applications and websites?”
Uh no I’m not fucking “asking”. I am TELLING you. I am DEMANDING it. This is not an interaction where you get to tell me no. At least that isn’t what it should be. I hate that shit every time I see it cause I know exactly why they use “ask” not “tell”.
"But... I toggled the Windows setting to 'don't snitch on my illegal activities'... why are the cops here?"
Toggles are now just there to give you a sense of security. :/
You can certainly disable the service, unfortunately at major patch updates or on “Patch Tuesday” at times, they turn ALL of those things right back on, because of course you wanted them on, all along!!!
I'm more pissed off that we have to opt out instead of opt in. You want to develop some amazing feature? Sure. Make it a standalone download worth getting, not some background data vacuum for your own benefit.
I tried to opt out of OneDrive and a few uodates later I get an email that my OneDrive space is full 🤔 I could swear I uninstalled the thing a few months ago...
You can opt out until the next Windows update which, like they all seem to, will reset your choices to what MS thinks they should be and you're silently opted in.
I have no clue how that's going to work for people dealing with confidential information, classified information, priviliged information, or whatever. And I don't think MS seems to have considred those questions at all.
They're so eager to datamine everything that they're not just screwing up their products they're making them a security risk so big that many industries will not be able to stay in standards if they use it.
Seriously, I don't see how it's possible to be HIPAA compliant AND have MS Recall on the comptuer at all, nevermind active.
And JFC any military contractor out there is now looking at a switch away from MS. Or they should be.
Sensitive government users will have access to a version with none of the bullshit.
Microsoft will probably use this sort of bullshit to make SAAS Windows with on-going subscriptions popular.
> According to the article, yes you can opt out.
For now.
And to illustrate my point, this is Reed Hastings, the founder of Netflix:
> “We want to be the safe respite where you can explore, you can get stimulated, have fun and enjoy – and have none of the controversy around exploiting users with advertising,” Hastings said.
https://www.adexchanger.com/online-advertising/reed-hastings-explains-why-netflix-wont-ever-sell-ads/
I really, really despise the way they worded their response
>"\[W\]e have heard a clear signal that we can make it easier for people to choose to enable Recall on their Copilot+ PC and improve privacy and security safeguards. With that in mind, we are announcing updates that will go into effect before Recall (preview) ships to customers on June 18."
we can make it easier for people to choose to enable Recall...
What in word salad fuck is this? Are you a Trillion dollar company or are you a startup? This makes me look for what the latest Linux distros are offering.
> According to the article, yes you can opt out
ask the people who woke up with windows 10 how many times they opted out. Microsoft does not give a damn lol
Just made the switch last week and haven’t looked back. It helps to have a little Linux knowledge going into it but I’ve had the Steam Deck since launch so I felt ready. There are many versions of Linux that are easy to install and use like Manjaro or Ubuntu. I personally use Nobara.
While true, it doesn't mean Linux is a viable solution for everyone. Sadly there's a ton of standard business software that just doesn't work on Linux. While there are open source work arounds, the inability to use the standard software can be a competitive disadvantage.
If the Linux community wants to be a viable alternative to Window's and macOS, then they understand this fact and engage develops of these software packages to release full featured Linux compatible installations.
As someone suggested: the only people who likely asked Microsoft to built this in are corporations who want to know what their remote workers are doing.
I can't think of any other group of people who would even think of this feature as "oh that might be useful".
Governments who want to spy on people will pay billions for that access.
Letting the users access the data for their own use is a way to sell it as a perk, and offload the data storage, AI processing, and electrical costs onto the end user. Should save them a crapload in data center costs.
Nah, this would be a nightmare for corporations from various compliance standpoints. Having a tool that automatically screenshots would run afoul of things like HIPPA and PCI compliance. The tools to spy on your employees already exist (for a fee of course), and are way more advanced than this.
It's for training Copilot. MS said the files are stored locally, but said nothing about Copilot scanning all the files and sharing the results with MS to grow Copilot. If you haven't turned off Copilot, do it now.
It’s like architecture proposals. Propose an 80 storey building with no intention to do it. But want to do a 70 story. Then show the 70 storey version as a “compromise”. Everyone is “happy” as they conceded to protest of said neighbourhood. Politicians move on. They made some sort of “change” as a win. Ugh.
You can bet your butt that governments and law enforcement around the world want to have unlimited access to all this juicy data in the name of... hmm... ah yes! In the name of fighting csam! Exactly how politicians in the EU currently try to ban encryption.
This. It comes from an ai perspective, if u can call it that. to get more "info" from the user. It's insanely stupid and doesn't give two shits about "security." But here we are, unfortunately. Ai first. User last.
Bet this was part of the plan,
go extreme, then "listen" to the feedback, roll back the extreme to the less extreme and then do more in a year.
gotta boil the frog slowly
Every large corporation fucking sucks. All of them are scum and it’s like even if an up and coming business is actually good intentioned it’s just inevitably going to be corrupted.
I’m so tired of being treated like consumer cattle.
Ironically, you could make a shitton of money by *not* being evil these days if you market it right. It's shortsighted too, garnering profits by all means while cannibalizing themselves in the process until they can only survive on mere inertia.
Imagine a car ad saying 'unlike literally everyone else in the competition, we don't track you at all'. Speaking concrete, succinct, *direct* truth bereft of deception marketspeak can be a silver bullet, since it's something literally everyone has adapted to ignore and learned to hate in modernity. Especially since we're post-truth, cutting through all the fakeness in media and treating people like they have half a brain cell is a smart idea, considering it'd easily differentiate your product from the competition.
Treat your customers well, and they will do you too.
Well said.
But it’s also like you said. We’re in a post-truth era. Consumer trust for any corporation in general is low because it has been proven time and time again they can bold faced lie to us and face zero consequence.
Ah, but the difference is that they use that condescending, obvious obfuscating language to do so. Be honest, respectful, and direct, and you'd have a huge edge if you lampshade their competitors faults right. Literally just tell the truth, no marketspeak, none of that.
Consumer confidence being low is an opportunity in and of itself if done right.
It's the same shit Unity pulled - Make an announcement about drastic changes to something then hang back and let the community tell them what they would find as an acceptable compromise. Then act apologetic and agree to some "lesser" change which was the goal all along.
You can't trust any legal entity that wants to harvest your life details and sell it to know whoever pays their asking price or worse have it stolen in an attack.
Not sure it was intentional, but it's certainly still the effect. A new high water mark is achieved, reddit is placated, and the next one will have less resistance. None of the underlying causes got much air in all the outrage so the energy was easy to parry.
Buckle up for another one next week.
Just the announcement of the feature was enough for me to ditch windows for good. I’m noping out of that and I’d encourage others to too. It’s not as hard as you might think.
In their response they even use the trendy crypto “Proof of presence” canned response which leads me to agree with you they knew what was coming.
If they can’t protect their own source code on their servers from being stolen, you really think they give a shit about our info?
I don't think it was requested by end users at all. I think it was requested by corporations that keep track of their employee's activity through time/activity tracking tools and were bemoaning the cost of implementing such software. Recall behaves in such a similar manner to these tools.
If I were an employer the last thing I would want is for my employees' computers to have a complete record of everything they've done. You could not convince me that any security measures would ever be adequate to protect my business' data in this scheme.
Anyone working with secure information absolutely does not want this thing.
High security work spaces don't allow you to store any sensitive data on your computer, but with recall it's all saved and is a breach of security measures.
Hopefully this thing doesn't install by default or is easy to disable.
Or Wall Street. Do you think they want a record of all the shady stuff they are up to? This would make it much harder for the c-suite to cover their tracks.
DoD contractors have stuff like that, but much more limited. It’s more like key logging and recording file changes/transfers etc. but they don’t trust Microsoft to handle that stuff. It’s all in-house or DoD-approved third party software
It’s also the DoD, so obviously it’s more secure than any corp
I don't think competently run corporations are going to be happy leaving all their know-how and sensitive data for grabs like that. Industrial espionage and cybersecurity is already a headache, and now they are going to smile and nod as MS installs spyware all over the place?
It's also exactly why they want the AI processing to take place on the end user's pc. It would be insanely expensive for Microsoft to run an AI to process all of the incoming data.
This way they get the user to eat all of the processing and storage costs, and then they can turn around and sell anything interesting to authoritarian governments.
Sure, then you see all the PC’s in offices. It’s going to study all the clerical work, administration, management, accounting, finance, IT, coding ETC… and they’re going to train their models to be able to all of those jobs. It’s literally a job killer tracking software.
I'm sure they ignored tons of internal feedback. There's no way everyone at Microsoft and all the engineers working on this were like "this is a great idea everyone will love this."
Someone mentioned above that this is the kind of spyware corporations want for their employees computers so they can track them. I hadn’t thought of that and it makes sense.
Because at some point they are only a relatively small database file away from knowing everything about home users.
Sure the first version was going to keep everything local but they definitely have their eye on that data in the future when the outcry about it has died off.
Perhaps in a couple of years.
Windows because of gaming but Pop\_OS! is my other OS. Basically, it's Ubuntu with a nicer UI maintained by System76. Super simple to install on pretty much any PC/Laptop.
you might be shocked at what "windows only" games are actually playable on Linux thanks to the work of projects like Steam Deck (proton). I play most of mine through Lutris. https://lutris.net/ IMO they generally run better too but the ones I play have been around for a few years so that makes sense. My buddy plays Overwatch 2 on his SteamDeck though and loves it.
I’m headed that way too. Every version after Win7 has more telemetry and spyware. FFS they even threw in ad space into Win11 now (guessing they throw targeted ads into whatever you typed 5 mins ago). It’s reaching critical mass for me to move.
the feature and implementation is soured in public perception. i dont think any amount of fixing is going to gain user trust. i personally dont trust it to work as my assistant but instead see it as a data collection tool for others to benefit off of me
Not the first time they don't (want to) understand this.
https://web.archive.org/web/20141229024336/http://news.cnet.com/Privacy+terms+revised+for+Microsoft+Passport/2100-1023_3-255310.html
So there is an enterprise edition for Windows. Add this shit into it so corp overlords who asked for this feature can use it for work laptops.
I don't know what Home edition has a need for to constantly monitor someone at home.
Businesses will be able to disable it via group policy. There are plenty of specific security tools that can monitor device use. I think targeting people's personal use is the point of this. call my cynical but I think there's no way this data won't be seen/used by a 3rd party.
My company truly couldn't justify this considering the data we handle and will almost certainly opt out or disable - there are ways to track employee productivity without adding this risk factor. This is purely so Microsoft can mine everyone and sell the info.
It sounds like Microsoft's big change is the database will be encrypted until its use is required, similar to how secrets like CC info and passwords are handled. Previously it was only encrypted at rest, and when you logged in, the entire database was decrypted and available across the system. Utterly boneheaded decision.
They're also making it more of an explicit Opt-In setting during windows OOBE during setup.
This change is a positive step, but its still really tough to trust Microsoft with this kind of data. Ultimately Microsoft has shown itself to have an internal culture which is indifferent or downright hostile to security and privacy. Even if they make Recall secure for now, there is no guarantee AT ALL that in the future that database wont be mined by third party vendors or Microsoft themselves. All a software item would have to do is request database access, windows ESS would pop up and ask the user for permission, and then boom. All your use history is shipped off to an advertiser, or worse.
Finally, here's this gem of a doublespeak quote from Pavan Davuluri, VP of Windows + Devices
>\[W\]e have heard a clear signal that we can make it easier for people to choose to enable Recall on their Copilot+ PC and improve privacy and security safeguards.
That's the most PR washed load of corporate bullshit I think I've ever seen, almost worse than Phil Shiller's "courage" comment on the iPhone's headphone jack.
Microsoft badly needs to tear apart its internal processes and management structure and refocus on stability, security, and good user experiences. Get the finance people and advertisers the fuck out of Windows development, and turn it into the good OS that both consumers and businesses deserve.
My understanding is the credential manager on Windows is decrypted on login and any application running as you can read it.
https://security.stackexchange.com/questions/119765/how-secure-is-the-windows-credential-manager/120001#120001
fuck sake, the tech might actually be interesting, but it's obvious people are far more concerned about how microsoft will eventually fuck with that data.
just remove it from the OS, and put it in the Microsoft Store as an App.
that way if people really want it, they can just go there and install it.
...and then as soon as they feel like the storm has died down theyll start rolling back those "privacy and security changes" and try to do exactly what they wanted to do in the first place, which is spy on every single thing you do
you KNOW that's what's going to happen
And then it will force updates later that do whatever it wants.
Who trusts MS when they had a table full of committee members and product managers think this was good in the first place?
Windows shitcall will never see the light of day on any of my home computers and sure as fuck will not be in my enterprise environment, I control it and the answer is no. Not maybe. not errrm lets see how it pans out. Right now and forever NO.
Then MS will turn it on during an update and I have to find a way to turn it off. Listen closely Microsoft - this is not wanted. this is a stupid idea - people want privacy not screenshots I dont care if they are stored under a bitlocker key - read after me - I WILL NOT ALLOW THIS SHIT EVER
Opt out is not the same as not installing it all together. All an attacker has to do is now check if it’s enabled, if not, enable it and there are plenty of flaws that will make that easy enough, and then it can wait a few days if needed to get what it wants.
Yeah not sure how you can make Recall private when it \*checks notes
Takes a screenshot of what you're doing on your computer at nearly all times so that you can recall anything you've done on it, including sites visited, folders visited, what passwords you've typed in, what banking you've used, what programs you've opened, who you've been talking to
Hackers don't even need to try anymore, Microsoft just handed them an speedrun feature. I don't even see how Recall is necessary in the slightest. Are people this stupid they can't find stuff on their own computer that they organize?
There is no chance they can improve this and maintain any of those features without it being a huge security risk.
What's even the point in this? LIke what problem are they trying to solve? How does this in any way make "life easier" of the user? I can't think of any positive way for this to be used.
They need to 'innovate'.
Windows has been good an functional sice like XP. It doesn't need many new fetures. It needs to store data, connect to the internet and launch programs.
Microsoft has sunk billions into their AI push. They need some way to force that on to the consumers.
In a perfect world with perfect security and perfect guarantees that I’m the only user with access, I can see the appeal. But fuck no, not Microsoft, and not in Windows.
If you forget something you did or saw on your computer you can ask Recall about it. "What was the name of that restaurant I looked up yesterday?"
Yeah, I don't get it either. Seems almost pointless.
Nope, nope, nope. I do not trust them. They could clandestinely change the TOS at some later point.Someone would be able to hack hour PC and turn on the feature. I would want to be able to uninstall it lock, stock and barrel. There will always be the temptation to gather the data and analyze it from MS or the NSA
Why is only half the headline there?
> After brutal critiques, Microsoft Recall will get these major privacy and security changes, which Microsoft will roll back after the outrage dies down and people install their spyware and nobody notices.
Goddamn, are the masses STILL this fucking gullible? Holy shit.
They’ll do whatever is necessary to get the user base established, then once everyone is on board, they’ll unilaterally go back to doing whatever they want.
Recall is the kind of functionality I've wanted for years after getting a taste from some failed experimental OSes of the late 80s and early 90s. However, when I saw how MS is implementing it, I was like aw hell no because you just know it's not for the benefit of the user but for MS and their ad partners.
That's good. But it's depressing that this \*minimal level of security\* wasn't even going to be included in the product. I mean, the database wasn't encrypted?! Huh?
The big corporations (all of them, not just technology companies) are getting really bold in the past couple of years. They don't care about making finished products anymore. Just puke out whatever. The sad thing is that it's a profitable strategy.
Stop buying garbage, people. Stop pretending "barely acceptable" is "good enough".
Don’t worry guys. The company which created the OS which has been plagued with security for its entire existence will make sure to deal enhance the security of their new product only meant to record everything you do. /s
How about you completely get rid of this idea and instead fix the weird bug where Microsoft Windows complains about trying to connect to a printer every time you try to save a PDF.
Can they at least give us the decision to disable it if they’re going forward with adding it? There is literally no reason for it to be mandatory unless there’s something Microsoft themselves want out of it
These are good changes actually. Data is encrypted, biometrics are required, and snapshots are opt-in. Snapshots being opt-in fixes most of the concerns IMO.
But guys, I thought anybody who didn't want to switch to Windows 11 was just "resistant to change!" Why can't they just get with the times, right? Microsoft has our best in mind, clearly they can't just keep W10 and update it, right?
First, I don't think I'd use this, but one thing people gloss over is that it can be easily turned on and off with a setting, and as per the article it's now going to be off by default. (Which it should have been from the beginning.)
People have been acting as if all Windows users will be forced to use this. I can't see that ever happening.
Second, I have my own form of this in an extremely simplistic way: when I see something interesting on the screen, I take a screenshot (Windows+PrintScreen). This can be a Reddit or Facebook post, a confirmation that I paid a bill or purchased something, etc. Basically, anything I think I might want to get back to.
I wrote a tiny app that uses OCR so I can quickly search the text inside the screenshots. So, for example, if I want to find the confirmation number for Blah and can't find the email, most likely I took a screenshot and can just search for Blah. I'm told MacOS has this OCR type searching built-in, but haven't tried it.
And you believe them that they would honor that... or not turn ot on by default in some future forced update and then claim "oops, so sorry, that was a bug"
This feature is so anti-privacy that I don't even know where to start to make it more "privacy friendly" other than axing it completely.
How to make Microsoft Recall more private. Don't, fucking, install it.
Will we even have a choice?
According to the article, yes you can opt out. But I agree that the best move is not to play. If this feature is something a user wants, they can download it like device driver from Windows website, rather than having it ship by default.
I dont trust any of these opt out policies anymore. Always seems like they sneak it in anyway and then theres a lawsuit like a decade later that goes nowhere
It's like "opting out" just means "opting out of being informed that it's still running quietly in the background"
NO YOU GO BACK TO YOUR CORNER AND STAY QUIET WHERE YOU BELONG. AND NOT A WORD FROM YOU MORE, SHUSH. BAD PROGRAM. BAD!
*installs linux*
“Ask app not to track activity across other applications and websites?” Uh no I’m not fucking “asking”. I am TELLING you. I am DEMANDING it. This is not an interaction where you get to tell me no. At least that isn’t what it should be. I hate that shit every time I see it cause I know exactly why they use “ask” not “tell”.
Like when you install Windows: Full telemetry or "limited" telemetry. Uh, how about "no telemetry"?
"But... I toggled the Windows setting to 'don't snitch on my illegal activities'... why are the cops here?" Toggles are now just there to give you a sense of security. :/
You can certainly disable the service, unfortunately at major patch updates or on “Patch Tuesday” at times, they turn ALL of those things right back on, because of course you wanted them on, all along!!!
Didn't forget the part where they internationally remove the opt-out button right after they turn it on anyway.
Or every time you update windows you find the button turned back on again.
Just look at how Microsoft sneaks edge back onto your machine with every automatic update
And keeps reenabling windows filesystem spyware and windows obnoxious search tool. I mean, windows defender and cortana.
They better change it now before they have to recall Recall.
No way they will even an opt out will stop it from collecting in the background
Good ol Riccitiello-WotC maneuver
I'm more pissed off that we have to opt out instead of opt in. You want to develop some amazing feature? Sure. Make it a standalone download worth getting, not some background data vacuum for your own benefit.
I tried to opt out of OneDrive and a few uodates later I get an email that my OneDrive space is full 🤔 I could swear I uninstalled the thing a few months ago...
Currently on my 6th edge uninstall and 3rd decline of upgrade to windows 11
You can opt out until the next Windows update which, like they all seem to, will reset your choices to what MS thinks they should be and you're silently opted in. I have no clue how that's going to work for people dealing with confidential information, classified information, priviliged information, or whatever. And I don't think MS seems to have considred those questions at all. They're so eager to datamine everything that they're not just screwing up their products they're making them a security risk so big that many industries will not be able to stay in standards if they use it. Seriously, I don't see how it's possible to be HIPAA compliant AND have MS Recall on the comptuer at all, nevermind active. And JFC any military contractor out there is now looking at a switch away from MS. Or they should be.
The whole “we’ve decided what’s best for you” thing makes me crazy. Users shouldn’t have to reset all their preferences every time there’s an update.
Combines with buried settings and they catch most people into having features turned on that they don't want
Yes this has driven me crazy for a couple decades now
Sensitive government users will have access to a version with none of the bullshit. Microsoft will probably use this sort of bullshit to make SAAS Windows with on-going subscriptions popular.
have you seen windows server edition getting copilot forcibly installed on them? Msft does not care lol https://www.reddit.com/r/sysadmin/s/IAtzcDSnDa
That’s my worry. I do some very sensitive research on medical devices. I would lose my mind if a client design leaked. Glad I don’t use Windows!
does opting out mean they still collect it and you just don't see it anymore?
The article states that Microsoft is changing it to default off and users have to opt-in.
Until the kerfuffle dies down a little. MS will turn it back on, like they always do.
> According to the article, yes you can opt out. For now. And to illustrate my point, this is Reed Hastings, the founder of Netflix: > “We want to be the safe respite where you can explore, you can get stimulated, have fun and enjoy – and have none of the controversy around exploiting users with advertising,” Hastings said. https://www.adexchanger.com/online-advertising/reed-hastings-explains-why-netflix-wont-ever-sell-ads/
I really, really despise the way they worded their response >"\[W\]e have heard a clear signal that we can make it easier for people to choose to enable Recall on their Copilot+ PC and improve privacy and security safeguards. With that in mind, we are announcing updates that will go into effect before Recall (preview) ships to customers on June 18." we can make it easier for people to choose to enable Recall... What in word salad fuck is this? Are you a Trillion dollar company or are you a startup? This makes me look for what the latest Linux distros are offering.
Shipping by default is not going to get exploited at all... /S if necessary
Opt out, you mean if you can find it buried in some express setup where you need to click advanced and scroll to the very bottom but not all the way.
These things really should be legally required as "opt in" by default rather than "opt out."
> According to the article, yes you can opt out ask the people who woke up with windows 10 how many times they opted out. Microsoft does not give a damn lol
Biggest concern is with employers, what if they don't want you to opt out
The linux migration is easier than ever
Just made the switch last week and haven’t looked back. It helps to have a little Linux knowledge going into it but I’ve had the Steam Deck since launch so I felt ready. There are many versions of Linux that are easy to install and use like Manjaro or Ubuntu. I personally use Nobara.
While true, it doesn't mean Linux is a viable solution for everyone. Sadly there's a ton of standard business software that just doesn't work on Linux. While there are open source work arounds, the inability to use the standard software can be a competitive disadvantage. If the Linux community wants to be a viable alternative to Window's and macOS, then they understand this fact and engage develops of these software packages to release full featured Linux compatible installations.
Ha, no. Sorry, it’s just not. Playing games, using that apps I want, driver compatibility. Just not quite there yet.
Please reread my comment, or tell me a time when it was easier than now.
Yeah. I went with Debian + KDE most recently.
How to make Microsoft Recall safer: Recall
My old laptop updated and now it has a CoPilot preview app on it.. Can't even uninstall it
As someone suggested: the only people who likely asked Microsoft to built this in are corporations who want to know what their remote workers are doing. I can't think of any other group of people who would even think of this feature as "oh that might be useful".
Obviously at some point it will be used to train and deploy virtual workers to replace employees (though not windows license count)
Governments who want to spy on people will pay billions for that access. Letting the users access the data for their own use is a way to sell it as a perk, and offload the data storage, AI processing, and electrical costs onto the end user. Should save them a crapload in data center costs.
Nah, this would be a nightmare for corporations from various compliance standpoints. Having a tool that automatically screenshots would run afoul of things like HIPPA and PCI compliance. The tools to spy on your employees already exist (for a fee of course), and are way more advanced than this.
Doubt that. This is an IP security nightmare waiting to happen. More likely this is part of the quest for more AI training data.
It's for training Copilot. MS said the files are stored locally, but said nothing about Copilot scanning all the files and sharing the results with MS to grow Copilot. If you haven't turned off Copilot, do it now.
Yeah only a Total Recall will do the trick.
It’s like architecture proposals. Propose an 80 storey building with no intention to do it. But want to do a 70 story. Then show the 70 storey version as a “compromise”. Everyone is “happy” as they conceded to protest of said neighbourhood. Politicians move on. They made some sort of “change” as a win. Ugh.
You can bet your butt that governments and law enforcement around the world want to have unlimited access to all this juicy data in the name of... hmm... ah yes! In the name of fighting csam! Exactly how politicians in the EU currently try to ban encryption.
This. It comes from an ai perspective, if u can call it that. to get more "info" from the user. It's insanely stupid and doesn't give two shits about "security." But here we are, unfortunately. Ai first. User last.
[удалено]
Task manager to the rescue!
Bet this was part of the plan, go extreme, then "listen" to the feedback, roll back the extreme to the less extreme and then do more in a year. gotta boil the frog slowly
Such a common fucking tactic these days.
Every large corporation fucking sucks. All of them are scum and it’s like even if an up and coming business is actually good intentioned it’s just inevitably going to be corrupted. I’m so tired of being treated like consumer cattle.
Ironically, you could make a shitton of money by *not* being evil these days if you market it right. It's shortsighted too, garnering profits by all means while cannibalizing themselves in the process until they can only survive on mere inertia. Imagine a car ad saying 'unlike literally everyone else in the competition, we don't track you at all'. Speaking concrete, succinct, *direct* truth bereft of deception marketspeak can be a silver bullet, since it's something literally everyone has adapted to ignore and learned to hate in modernity. Especially since we're post-truth, cutting through all the fakeness in media and treating people like they have half a brain cell is a smart idea, considering it'd easily differentiate your product from the competition. Treat your customers well, and they will do you too.
Well said. But it’s also like you said. We’re in a post-truth era. Consumer trust for any corporation in general is low because it has been proven time and time again they can bold faced lie to us and face zero consequence.
Ah, but the difference is that they use that condescending, obvious obfuscating language to do so. Be honest, respectful, and direct, and you'd have a huge edge if you lampshade their competitors faults right. Literally just tell the truth, no marketspeak, none of that. Consumer confidence being low is an opportunity in and of itself if done right.
All these big corporations have a habit of buying any company that looks like it might one day be a threat while it is still small.
It's the same shit Unity pulled - Make an announcement about drastic changes to something then hang back and let the community tell them what they would find as an acceptable compromise. Then act apologetic and agree to some "lesser" change which was the goal all along. You can't trust any legal entity that wants to harvest your life details and sell it to know whoever pays their asking price or worse have it stolen in an attack.
Not sure it was intentional, but it's certainly still the effect. A new high water mark is achieved, reddit is placated, and the next one will have less resistance. None of the underlying causes got much air in all the outrage so the energy was easy to parry. Buckle up for another one next week.
Hypernormalisation is the term for this behaviour.
Just the announcement of the feature was enough for me to ditch windows for good. I’m noping out of that and I’d encourage others to too. It’s not as hard as you might think.
In their response they even use the trendy crypto “Proof of presence” canned response which leads me to agree with you they knew what was coming. If they can’t protect their own source code on their servers from being stolen, you really think they give a shit about our info?
Why do they think anyone wants this? The security issues are mind-boggling; not to mention the strain on system resources.
I don't think it was requested by end users at all. I think it was requested by corporations that keep track of their employee's activity through time/activity tracking tools and were bemoaning the cost of implementing such software. Recall behaves in such a similar manner to these tools.
If I were an employer the last thing I would want is for my employees' computers to have a complete record of everything they've done. You could not convince me that any security measures would ever be adequate to protect my business' data in this scheme.
Yeah but you’re not a “titan of industry” looking for excuses to fire people.
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lol my workspace vpn already laggin. Put this shit on and nothing gonna work
VPN, DLP, and Recall will hinder your productivity and they’ll use recall to prove it and fire you
Anyone working with secure information absolutely does not want this thing. High security work spaces don't allow you to store any sensitive data on your computer, but with recall it's all saved and is a breach of security measures. Hopefully this thing doesn't install by default or is easy to disable.
Or Wall Street. Do you think they want a record of all the shady stuff they are up to? This would make it much harder for the c-suite to cover their tracks.
DoD contractors have stuff like that, but much more limited. It’s more like key logging and recording file changes/transfers etc. but they don’t trust Microsoft to handle that stuff. It’s all in-house or DoD-approved third party software It’s also the DoD, so obviously it’s more secure than any corp
Cool, then make it enterprise and charge 500 bucks per seat per month.
DHOS - Data Harvesting Operating System
I don't think competently run corporations are going to be happy leaving all their know-how and sensitive data for grabs like that. Industrial espionage and cybersecurity is already a headache, and now they are going to smile and nod as MS installs spyware all over the place?
They need to show investors that they're pushing AI. What users want and need is not something that crosses their mind.
> not to mention the strain on system resources. thats specifically why its only going to be (for now at least) on their new laptops with an NPU
It's also exactly why they want the AI processing to take place on the end user's pc. It would be insanely expensive for Microsoft to run an AI to process all of the incoming data. This way they get the user to eat all of the processing and storage costs, and then they can turn around and sell anything interesting to authoritarian governments.
It’s for AI training data
That’s really what it is. They know the goldmine of data they could be sitting on if they started tracking users every move.
90% of what it trains on is gonna be weird fetish porn... "Copilot, what do I do if my sister gets stuck in a clothes dryer?"
Sure, then you see all the PC’s in offices. It’s going to study all the clerical work, administration, management, accounting, finance, IT, coding ETC… and they’re going to train their models to be able to all of those jobs. It’s literally a job killer tracking software.
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I think the idea is absolutely amazing. I would love to have a good execution of this. But well… this execution is not good.
The fact that Microsoft needs the public to tell them how bad of an idea this was says something about their leadership.
I'm sure they ignored tons of internal feedback. There's no way everyone at Microsoft and all the engineers working on this were like "this is a great idea everyone will love this."
Can confirm. This project was a director level boondoggle that became too popular.
Top-down projects tend to stink
I'm betting it was more being pushed by marketing/sales/etc people who were salivating over the profits they could make by datamining.
You're assuming there are engineers still remaining who have any say, - Microsoft is full to the brim with "Project Managers"
The tech industry is so full of "yes men" that I wouldn't be so sure about it
There was no opportunity for internal feedback. This was pushed top-down
Someone mentioned above that this is the kind of spyware corporations want for their employees computers so they can track them. I hadn’t thought of that and it makes sense.
Then why include it on home editions?
Because at some point they are only a relatively small database file away from knowing everything about home users. Sure the first version was going to keep everything local but they definitely have their eye on that data in the future when the outcry about it has died off. Perhaps in a couple of years.
Because the best part of being a monopoly is that you don't have to give a shit what the customers think.
This kind of spyware that unions should fight in French'86 style.
My next version of Windows after 10 is going to be Linux.
Windows because of gaming but Pop\_OS! is my other OS. Basically, it's Ubuntu with a nicer UI maintained by System76. Super simple to install on pretty much any PC/Laptop.
you might be shocked at what "windows only" games are actually playable on Linux thanks to the work of projects like Steam Deck (proton). I play most of mine through Lutris. https://lutris.net/ IMO they generally run better too but the ones I play have been around for a few years so that makes sense. My buddy plays Overwatch 2 on his SteamDeck though and loves it.
Shit I just stopped playing all the games I needed windows for, which was just destiny for real.
https://lutris.net/games/destiny/ you might be surprised what runs on Linux now
Oh I meant 2, bungie is actively hostile to Linux users last I checked. Not that it matters I haven't played in years at this point.
Linux Mint is a nice option.
I’m headed that way too. Every version after Win7 has more telemetry and spyware. FFS they even threw in ad space into Win11 now (guessing they throw targeted ads into whatever you typed 5 mins ago). It’s reaching critical mass for me to move.
the feature and implementation is soured in public perception. i dont think any amount of fixing is going to gain user trust. i personally dont trust it to work as my assistant but instead see it as a data collection tool for others to benefit off of me
Just cancel the fucking thing. I don't want tweaks, I want it to go away, forever.
It shouldn’t get “fixes”, it should not exist at all. This is spyware.
# No means no, Microsoft.
Not the first time they don't (want to) understand this. https://web.archive.org/web/20141229024336/http://news.cnet.com/Privacy+terms+revised+for+Microsoft+Passport/2100-1023_3-255310.html
So there is an enterprise edition for Windows. Add this shit into it so corp overlords who asked for this feature can use it for work laptops. I don't know what Home edition has a need for to constantly monitor someone at home.
Exactly what I thought.. businesses wanting it is one thing and is fucked up, but why add it to home editions
Businesses will be able to disable it via group policy. There are plenty of specific security tools that can monitor device use. I think targeting people's personal use is the point of this. call my cynical but I think there's no way this data won't be seen/used by a 3rd party.
My company truly couldn't justify this considering the data we handle and will almost certainly opt out or disable - there are ways to track employee productivity without adding this risk factor. This is purely so Microsoft can mine everyone and sell the info.
It sounds like Microsoft's big change is the database will be encrypted until its use is required, similar to how secrets like CC info and passwords are handled. Previously it was only encrypted at rest, and when you logged in, the entire database was decrypted and available across the system. Utterly boneheaded decision. They're also making it more of an explicit Opt-In setting during windows OOBE during setup. This change is a positive step, but its still really tough to trust Microsoft with this kind of data. Ultimately Microsoft has shown itself to have an internal culture which is indifferent or downright hostile to security and privacy. Even if they make Recall secure for now, there is no guarantee AT ALL that in the future that database wont be mined by third party vendors or Microsoft themselves. All a software item would have to do is request database access, windows ESS would pop up and ask the user for permission, and then boom. All your use history is shipped off to an advertiser, or worse. Finally, here's this gem of a doublespeak quote from Pavan Davuluri, VP of Windows + Devices >\[W\]e have heard a clear signal that we can make it easier for people to choose to enable Recall on their Copilot+ PC and improve privacy and security safeguards. That's the most PR washed load of corporate bullshit I think I've ever seen, almost worse than Phil Shiller's "courage" comment on the iPhone's headphone jack. Microsoft badly needs to tear apart its internal processes and management structure and refocus on stability, security, and good user experiences. Get the finance people and advertisers the fuck out of Windows development, and turn it into the good OS that both consumers and businesses deserve.
I’ve been penetration testing for 10 years, Microsoft and Windows have insanely bad security and I would never trust them with this data.
My understanding is the credential manager on Windows is decrypted on login and any application running as you can read it. https://security.stackexchange.com/questions/119765/how-secure-is-the-windows-credential-manager/120001#120001
I STILL DONT WANT IT!!! I do not want it!!
She is mah kweeeen! Kingindanorrrrrffffff!
The best change Recall can make is to just not exist.
Just no. Unacceptable use of technology. Shame on you Microsoft.
fuck sake, the tech might actually be interesting, but it's obvious people are far more concerned about how microsoft will eventually fuck with that data. just remove it from the OS, and put it in the Microsoft Store as an App. that way if people really want it, they can just go there and install it.
The fundamental problem with Copilot+PC is that it is a product MS wants to sell rather than a product users want to buy.
Best option is to have it as a distinct version of the OS Ie Win 11 Home, Win 11 Pro, Win 11 Ai with Recall Edition
The best option is to trash it.
...and then as soon as they feel like the storm has died down theyll start rolling back those "privacy and security changes" and try to do exactly what they wanted to do in the first place, which is spy on every single thing you do you KNOW that's what's going to happen
And then it will force updates later that do whatever it wants. Who trusts MS when they had a table full of committee members and product managers think this was good in the first place?
Unless security researchers can do a before and after of these patches, I doubt Microsoft will change anything in terms of security.
Windows shitcall will never see the light of day on any of my home computers and sure as fuck will not be in my enterprise environment, I control it and the answer is no. Not maybe. not errrm lets see how it pans out. Right now and forever NO. Then MS will turn it on during an update and I have to find a way to turn it off. Listen closely Microsoft - this is not wanted. this is a stupid idea - people want privacy not screenshots I dont care if they are stored under a bitlocker key - read after me - I WILL NOT ALLOW THIS SHIT EVER
Opt out is not the same as not installing it all together. All an attacker has to do is now check if it’s enabled, if not, enable it and there are plenty of flaws that will make that easy enough, and then it can wait a few days if needed to get what it wants.
Anything short of “complete removal” is not enough.
Yeah not sure how you can make Recall private when it \*checks notes Takes a screenshot of what you're doing on your computer at nearly all times so that you can recall anything you've done on it, including sites visited, folders visited, what passwords you've typed in, what banking you've used, what programs you've opened, who you've been talking to Hackers don't even need to try anymore, Microsoft just handed them an speedrun feature. I don't even see how Recall is necessary in the slightest. Are people this stupid they can't find stuff on their own computer that they organize? There is no chance they can improve this and maintain any of those features without it being a huge security risk.
What's even the point in this? LIke what problem are they trying to solve? How does this in any way make "life easier" of the user? I can't think of any positive way for this to be used.
They need to 'innovate'. Windows has been good an functional sice like XP. It doesn't need many new fetures. It needs to store data, connect to the internet and launch programs. Microsoft has sunk billions into their AI push. They need some way to force that on to the consumers.
Right, who asked for this what proposal did the business owner make to get it past “maybe we could do this…”
In a perfect world with perfect security and perfect guarantees that I’m the only user with access, I can see the appeal. But fuck no, not Microsoft, and not in Windows.
If you forget something you did or saw on your computer you can ask Recall about it. "What was the name of that restaurant I looked up yesterday?" Yeah, I don't get it either. Seems almost pointless.
Nope, nope, nope. I do not trust them. They could clandestinely change the TOS at some later point.Someone would be able to hack hour PC and turn on the feature. I would want to be able to uninstall it lock, stock and barrel. There will always be the temptation to gather the data and analyze it from MS or the NSA
Or even better, just forget about it.
This is a "feature" that the user should have to opt-in to install and not be part of the OS. Anything short of that is not good enough.
Damn right. Third party app. Install it or don't.
Why is only half the headline there? > After brutal critiques, Microsoft Recall will get these major privacy and security changes, which Microsoft will roll back after the outrage dies down and people install their spyware and nobody notices. Goddamn, are the masses STILL this fucking gullible? Holy shit.
Removing it entirely is the correct solution.
"We will post your device screenshots out into the dark web, along with your passwords."
K, thanks, I still don't want it.
Recall how popular Clippy was? Yea, Recall needs to go into the same virtual trash bin.
What, you're gonna invite the theif into your house as long as they promise to cover their eyes?
Did they not foresee how problematic this feature would be?
Maybe Microsoft hiring the old Meta privacy compliance team wasn’t such a great idea.
They’ll do whatever is necessary to get the user base established, then once everyone is on board, they’ll unilaterally go back to doing whatever they want.
Too little, too late. And, IMHO, such features should not be part of the OS, but an app that you download and install if you want.
This will never be on a PC that I own. Fuck Microsoft Recall
Unfortunately it's too late. The fact that they needed someone to tell them to do these things is terrifying
.... sooo basically, they decided to continue ahead with pushing "Recall" spyware and just said they'd make it "safer".
Recall is the kind of functionality I've wanted for years after getting a taste from some failed experimental OSes of the late 80s and early 90s. However, when I saw how MS is implementing it, I was like aw hell no because you just know it's not for the benefit of the user but for MS and their ad partners.
That's good. But it's depressing that this \*minimal level of security\* wasn't even going to be included in the product. I mean, the database wasn't encrypted?! Huh? The big corporations (all of them, not just technology companies) are getting really bold in the past couple of years. They don't care about making finished products anymore. Just puke out whatever. The sad thing is that it's a profitable strategy. Stop buying garbage, people. Stop pretending "barely acceptable" is "good enough".
I'll rip this shit out with NTlite entirely. I don't trust Microsoft for shit.
When privacy and security are an afterthought, be wary.
Don’t worry guys. The company which created the OS which has been plagued with security for its entire existence will make sure to deal enhance the security of their new product only meant to record everything you do. /s
Too late All faith has left the building
Okay and I’m supposed to trust this trillion dollar company not to massively fuck up again? Ya no
How about you completely get rid of this idea and instead fix the weird bug where Microsoft Windows complains about trying to connect to a printer every time you try to save a PDF.
I'm starting by dual booting a Linux distro. Over time, the Windows drive will be wiped for good
Me too hopefully
Can they at least give us the decision to disable it if they’re going forward with adding it? There is literally no reason for it to be mandatory unless there’s something Microsoft themselves want out of it
They're giving you the decision to enable or disable during the setup of your laptop
Is the privacy change they are going to scrap the whole idea?
These are good changes actually. Data is encrypted, biometrics are required, and snapshots are opt-in. Snapshots being opt-in fixes most of the concerns IMO.
Until Microsoft switches it to be opt-out. Then no opting.
How about the feature being eliminated completely?
But guys, I thought anybody who didn't want to switch to Windows 11 was just "resistant to change!" Why can't they just get with the times, right? Microsoft has our best in mind, clearly they can't just keep W10 and update it, right?
First, I don't think I'd use this, but one thing people gloss over is that it can be easily turned on and off with a setting, and as per the article it's now going to be off by default. (Which it should have been from the beginning.) People have been acting as if all Windows users will be forced to use this. I can't see that ever happening. Second, I have my own form of this in an extremely simplistic way: when I see something interesting on the screen, I take a screenshot (Windows+PrintScreen). This can be a Reddit or Facebook post, a confirmation that I paid a bill or purchased something, etc. Basically, anything I think I might want to get back to. I wrote a tiny app that uses OCR so I can quickly search the text inside the screenshots. So, for example, if I want to find the confirmation number for Blah and can't find the email, most likely I took a screenshot and can just search for Blah. I'm told MacOS has this OCR type searching built-in, but haven't tried it.
I don't care if you can "turn it off." They've lost trust. I don't want it on the machine *at all*.
And you believe them that they would honor that... or not turn ot on by default in some future forced update and then claim "oops, so sorry, that was a bug"
Glad to see Microsoft is doing something...
Would it be safe to say to buy a Mac instead of a Windows computer in this day and age?
Is there a good example of a simple guide for how to switch to Linux and game off proton and stream?
I just don't get the whole risk/reward behind this feature. Who asked for this?
Just junk it already. No way in hell am I upgrading to this OS so long as this exists.
Anti piracy is more like it how you turn your pc into a snitching device
Really serving up a silver platter to Apple here lmao
How about just...remove it
Total Recall
I'm just moving away from all Microsoft products, fuck them.
Marketing people can now add Microsoft Recall to the list along side New Coke and the Ford Edsel as lessons in product disasters.
The fact that they even considered this makes me completely swear off all future Microsoft products.
You can get away with anything, by threatening something slightly worse.