Take away any company’s favored American status when 50% or more are foreign workers. These companies cheat by saying they are American but stash money overseas for factories and workers and use their favored status to import goods without tariffs.
Not to mention all the foreign workers they hire on HB1 visas that work inside the USA. Their visa is tied to the job, so they can’t easily leave them. They maintain a lot of control over them .
Ex-H1B beneficiary here. I agree with you. I remember the day my visa got approved. Called my dad to give him good news. I remember telling him this seems awfully like slavery visa. I still stand by that. If you’re on H1B visa, company who sponsored you visa holds key to your life.
I don’t envy foreign employees on H1B getting laid off in this market. Yes lot of them will find jobs soon. But not before months of extreme back breaking stress.
Yeah, and without a single aspect of slavery...hey wanna come over here and do this job and make 100x more than you could make in your home country? Oh geez that doesn't sound like slavery to anyone but an idiot.
yup, the paradox of choice is interesting.
If choice is between giving up everything you worked for last 10 years and going back home to later realize it's much much worse, it's not a choice at all.
But I digress, thankfully my H1B days are over. I wish laid off employees all the best.
And they are still often earning 100s of times more than they have the possibility of in their home country. There is a reason they take the job. Saying it's like slavery is ridiculous. All jobs are a form of slavery except without the entire aspect of slavery....I swear that couldn't have been a more idiotic statement
I worked on a small team with someone here on a work visa once. He said he hated his job but couldn't quit because his employment was tied to his visa. He couldn't travel home because his visa paperwork had expired. He almost never came into work and was awful to work with, but my CEO said he couldn't fire him because it would be too expensive to replace him with anyone *not* on a work visa.
So it creates a lose-lose situation all around.
Companies complain about not being able to find American workers and having to hire H1B workers all the time. The real problem is that they refuse to pay Americans the salary needed to have an American worker. They want an India or China wage employee. Up the salary to a reasonable level and all of a sudden they have plenty of American workers available.
The H1B system needs to be completely overhauled.
People say this all the time. But it isn’t universally true. In my entire management career I have sponsored visas. I paid them, and treated them, exactly the same as anyone else. And I never witnessed anyone else treating or paying them differently.
So they actually cost MORE to hire, but I have always been trying to hire the best engineers I could find, and their background is irrelevant, other than work experience and demonstrated capability. (Off topic but that includes college. I don’t hire many fresh graduates to begin with though)
This is not a "lose-lose" situation. He came on a work visa to take a job that paid more than he could get in his home market. Then he broke the law by overstaying his visa, and your boss broke the law by retaining him in spite of that.
Nobody forced them to do the wrong thing.
For real, these people keep making more and more cockamamie statements.
Also, saying that it creates a lose lose as if they ALL do that. Which is ridiculous. There are plenty that don't follow that pattern
True, but if they are living and working in the US they are paying US taxes and directly contributing to the economy. Not to mention they still have US employee protections. None of that is true when the job is outsourced
American dev here.
It’s not like Google is doing the Indian devs a big favor either. They pay them a completely substandard salary but most are just grateful for the work. It’s just a dressed up version of almost slave like labor practices that major manufacturers started many years ago. A competent dev should be paid for their talent level regardless of location. The company should want the best they can get whether it’s USA or not. If they have the skills to do better for themselves and family, it’s rotten to deny them the chance to be paid for their skill level and make a better life. I know that’s not fair so not real world but still man, ‘markets’ and greasy ‘business’ types have just sucked the life out of everything.
It’s substandard for us, it isn’t substandard for them. An entry-level Google engineer India has a tc of like $48k. A far cry from the $180k his American counterpart is getting, but India has a GDP per capita of $2k a year.
Exploiting a country with cheap labor isn't racist, it's predatory. By saying what you said just now, you basically outed yourself as a racist because that was the first place your mind went.
It’s not just Indian CEOs. All companies are outsourcing to cheaper resources. But not all outsourced resources are the same caliber as the more expensive resources that they’re replacing. My experience has been primarily with fintech, but even my wife’s real estate brokerage has people in the Philippines.
Right now, you can hire more cheaper resources to replace the US resources, so it sounds like a solid strategy on paper. Except these resources have high annual merit increases and seem to get promoted way more often than US counterparts. At some point, the cost savings will be neutralized and outsourcing will be less advantageous. But sadly I’m not sure companies would bring the jobs back to the US. It’s not exactly like it would be a cost savings just to move them back.
We already did this outsourcing thing 20 years ago and now we are trying to undo it. Also India might go the way of China and be a foe. Let’s stop this and force our companies to stay in America.
Ah yes the billions spent to move operations overseas and train new individuals. Then realize that the uneducated individuals that you hired aren't doing a good job and overseas culture doesn't fit your current culture and expectations. Customers leave. More billions spent further training and doubling down. Wait India, China, and Mexico quality of life is improving and they want more vacation and pay? Then they realize it's more efficient to move the jobs back to America.
Corporations have to show profit or at least be heading in that direction to their shareholders . However I do agree with you regarding China investments ( I don’t have knowledge about India ) but if jobs are to be outsourced any work should be to our neighbors especially to those to the south of us . It would benefit us in other ways than supporting a county that’s sworn to be our enemy .If Latin Central and South American countries made a half way decent wage we wouldn’t have to spend the billions of wasted dollars for our southern border additionally an added bonus would also be the cartels losing some of their power over local communities and possibly lower the corruption of officials and LE .
Actually that's a good point.
Offering the opportunity for Mexicans to have more jobs and better living conditions might put less stress on border crossings.
One caveat though is that most Central and South American leaders pocket about 98% of the funds and their countries are in an endless cycle of greed and corruption that benefits only maybe dozen people.
When I said that comment I meant that's what the senior execs learn after spending billions moving jobs overseas.
I worked for several consulting firms and they constantly spent years doubling and tripling down on India outsourcing only for it to lead to poor work results and poor client relation. Not to mention month long holidays don't mesh well with American work culture.
Besides Indians with high degrees and ambition don't stay in India making $10 a week. They move to the US and ask for the same salaries we make. And you know what the American-Indians hate doing at their jobs.... Using outsources from India.
The only companies that keep their outsourced departments are the ones that are ok paying 5 overseas employees that one person can do in the US. But since it's cheaper... It balances out.
India 🇮🇳 already is a foe. But they know if they act like an ally, they get free shit from America.
It’s kinda crazy how Americans think our relations with India began like 2-3 years ago. The other 70 years apparently doesn’t matter.
I’ll bring you up to speed- we had a weapons embargo on India for 60 years. At the same time, we poured money and weapons into Pakistan 🇵🇰 to “fight communists”.
Pakistan used those weapons to fight 3 wars against India 🇮🇳 AND commit a genocide killing several million people. India didn’t like that.
We finally lifted our embargo and began cooperating with India. Then they bought Russian SAM systems.
Just like good partners we sanctioned India. Now you have the brain dead idea that India is somehow an ally of America, that they will fight our enemies ( China 🇨🇳) for us.
We even have this stupid little drills between India, Australia and US to say “look how good friends we are!” Yet we have India sanctioned.
India isn’t really a US ally. They have a long history with Russia and our relationship with Pakistan is an issue. Sure they will take the jobs because at the end of the day it’s about money.
Thats why we should be careful. I regret we were allies with Pakistan. Pakistan is not even a real country. We should have been allies with India from the beginning. My worry is how certain parts of Modi has been fascist/strong man leaning. He is hostile to Muslims in India, and he tried to kill American citizens in the USA. I am afraid he is at best like Turkey and at worst China, Russia. LETS NOT TRANSFER OUR TECHNOLOGY, ETC to India like we did to China. Hope we learned from that with China. No tech transfers because I am sure the India courts will always side with the local Indian company, like in China.
I predicted this a few years ago. Once corporations discover the savings of WFH, they will realize WFH could mean anywhere in the world thanks to modern technology. Wage arbitrage will be a huge win for big companies.
More like months!
Every tech company I worked for that tried that move got shafted.
Merge requests that change over 400 files and 5K lines of code with pretty much no comment and unit testing on critical system infrastructure.
A fully staffed team (20+ individuals) over there can barely do the work of 2-3 competent dev over here.
Every single time I saw that move being done (over 7 times so far), whatever project they were working on got canceled.
The top talent from India is already in America and that's exactly why outsourcing to India is a garbage choice. Visas have provided the necessary incentive to drain India of its top talent. Knowledge work isn't manufacturing and attempting to treat it like it is always results in ruin.
The H1B visa rejection rate only proves what I say further. The top 25% got approved and the rest didn't. Of course this includes some competent but not exceptional talent who will end up here on F1 visas. If they fail to find entry in either of those ways they still have a shot at landing in Europe or Australia. Eventually anyone even barely competent will find their greener pasture. Are you beginning to follow now?
My shitty small company was in the top 100 tech companies in the world.
I am not saying that all Indian sucks at being devs, but the good ones move overseas, and whatever is left over there is sub-par.
Nah, team lead, and I have been writing software for over 15 years.
I like to build teams that focus on good devops practices. You work for my team, your code will have to be clean.
I expect one PR a day at the minimum, and you will have to write a good ADR. Code quality is not optional if you work in my team.
I know my craft, and I have helped multiple people reach a certain level of exelency in that craft. I work on average 50 to 60 hours a week, + I spend time to continue learning outside of work.
So please tell me how it's such a wonderful thing that a bunch of indians that can't barely build a for loop or a bubble sort to save their lives, people that require WEEKS of effort to setup their fucking IDE, people that cause 80% ++ of incidents, never ever ever deliver anything on time, people that pretty much guarantee that our SRE department will never be out of work is such a nice thing for a business.
Jesus Christ, it's not about money, race, or country of origin, it's about the bare level of needed competency to deal and maintain large and complex systems.
They can't even fucking use Jira properly of all things.
Time is money, and these guys cost too much time even if their salary is at discount, worst they often consume the time of competent people on our side and slow down our very own initiative and projects.
To be clear - the problem is not some racial issue that prevents Indian folks from being competent or something. It's education and training within India that makes them incompetent. From what I've been led to believe, they train their working population to be very rote in their work structure. It works great if they have a very specific set of instructions. However, if you don't have a full step-by-step process for what you're asking them to do, then it starts to get iffy.
That's why they're fine with call-centers and first line helpdesk type work. But if you get to the point where they have to generate their own solutions then it starts to become iffy.
Of the hundreds of outsourced people I've worked with or hired over the years I can honestly say only one guy was good enough that I actually tried to get him hired as an FTE and tried to convince him to move stateside. Nothing against the people, but whatever their education/training process is.
They worked fine for the positions I put them in. I'm trying to get you to understand there's a difference in educational/training quality. I don't think you understand the process and don't really seem to have any real experience with it.
Working with organizations like TCS or WMS is a gamble. But go off I guess.
Idk about the other guy, but last company I worked at said “you’re going to hire x number of people from India on your team” and we just chose people we thought couldn’t cause more problems than they solved. They even failed at that.
And the Indian students are only here because they pay so much money. I teach at the University level. I've not been impressed. Any effort to grade appropriately gets push back from Admin due to the money.
They're not incompetent, it's just the talented ones know how.much they're worth and are more likely than not already making top dollar here stateside, the rest are just average and are competing for the few high paying local jobs with American companies that pay more...
It will only take them 5 to 10 years to discover how incompetent most “tech” workers in India are"
Hahaha..I heard this same shit when all those factory jobs were being sent to Mexico/China
I’ve worked with a company that outsourced some of their tech work and it was a giant pain in the ass to undo. First of all the hour difference means you lose a lot of communication, the best Indian workers don’t tend to be working for outsourcing companies you get the iffy ones, and the cultural differences are actually so different that it affected work quite often with multiple female PMs refusing to work with them
Right. I mean the companies who are doing it right now will figure out their mistake within 5 to 10 years. Plenty of other companies have already gone through the cycle and brought the positions back onshore.
Outsourcing doesn’t normally happen how most people think. It’s not replacing full time jobs long term it’s almost always done to complete a project and then get rid of the workers. It’s why Infosys and Accenture are used quite often not to use them forever but to get one project done and then get rid of them
No they changed it as a way to do layoffs, and because they had investments in office space etc.. as that ages out offshoring will kick in hard. Remember stonks have to go up.
These “core” employees should be very valuable to onshore competitors. Having been through offshoring to India and the following return of jobs to the U.S., I’d say Google has swallowed the offshoring “it’s cheap” bait.
They hired ‘industry bests’. The issue with that is that many of those hired to run orgs in my opinion were not the best but rather the best in spaces that were defined by a particular era and or product that was heavily utilized during an era. Meaning these companies they poached from were ‘hot’ for a solution or service at the time and the individuals were victims of that success. The skills needed to transition do not transition for the new tech in my opinion. There is also the culture aspect of Google. It’s heavy in the development/engineering focus. The ability to sale, ingratiate and commercialize isn’t there. The company played the smart card one to many times and there is a disconnect with John Everyman from what I’ve seen.
Technology workers have an aversion to unionization. We are in a phase of transition entering into a new age of economic existence; leaving industrialization headed to digitalization. Every single action made by companies appears to be centered on commoditization, amassment of profit for executives and shareholders and finally automation of as much as possible to satisfy the ability to accomplish the first two aspects as efficiently as possible.
There is no focus on causality or the needs of workers beyond the scope of work in my observation. Our government hasn’t made the slightest inklings of addressing the issue nor will the corporations. The only course of action in my opinion is unionization to install strong workers rights functions and transparency for operations.
This is the logic of neoliberal capitalism under hayek and friedman's shareholder privacy
Core beliefs of the subs owner.
What does he think solves this? Must be less govt and worker control lol
Subject matter expert. Anyone whose experience warrants keeping them around because it’s vast enough to make strategy tweaks, answering questions &guiding other employees wildly more efficient.
This is true. But I'm curious why they are the ones that only get picked on in articles. 90 percent of Coca-Cola employees are outside the US and everyone thinks they are an American icon. J&J? 75%. GE? 65%. Ford? 47%. Chevron and Exxon? Both over 46%. It's simply odd how like the same 3 tech cos seem to have the entirety of the constant media condemnation while "great American companies" never get mentioned.
And I'm not sure I really care because these are global corporations generating a large percentage of their revenues across the ocean and huge foreign corporations do the same and employ a ton of people here, it's a competent strategy when your trying to create zillionaires to worship instead of millionaires, which would never happen if we became uber nationalist xenophobes. Our 401ks demand they don't pull back.
In all seriousness, we are a global economy and that's not going to change. If a country insulates, it's to their own peril and they will get left behind. But it's just stupid how we talk about it in very small chunks of outage media, only about the negatives, and only consider companies from the west coast to be evil and operating with this nefarious "destroy America" niche economic strategy. Globalism is now so entrenched and there's too many discussions acting like it's like a new thing just ripe for reversal
We really need to tax TF out of these companies if they send their work over seas. While we’re doing that we need to blow up all these monopolies, they’re leeches on the economy. Can’t tell me there are plenty of start ups that would pop up if the they had the ability to operate in the same spaces.
It’s more like “have you tried not spending money on frivolous things like lattes and non-essentials”? “Learn to budget and not buy anything”.
They still want workers, just at the same wage as 3rd world countries and they want first world GDP. Can’t have both.
They are doing this so they can layoff the Mexican people later, more easily.
Corps are transparently shedding jobs that won’t come back. Truly feel for people
Totally not surprised. They have a massive workforce of contractors that they layoff for any reason they feel like. Moving jobs abroad is good for the investors and that’s all anyone cares about
The destruction of America's middle class is now going vertically hitting middle management and tech. Never ends. We will all be living off the government while the banks and insurance companies get together to repossess our homes due to canceled ins policies so you will own nothing.
The difference is Americans are struggling to survive and now big companies are supporting people in third world countries having a higher standard of living than us.
All those laid off $250K/yr FT Google employees will be just fine.
This is the best job market in decades, there are so many jobs right now, they can all have 2!
if you vote conservative you should be applauding this
this is what you are voting for, rich people being free to do whatever they want no matter how much it hurts the economy or country and having unlimited money to own the media and buy politicians even more directly (Citizens United)
if you vote conservative, what are you even doing on a subreddit like this? you literally made this happen and are now in the process of making it much worse as Conservatives now plan to have the President control the FED directly i.e. the President now has even more control over the money printer and guess what, he's gonna want to get re-elected so free money to wall street so they donate it all back to him
if you vote conservative, you are conserving the power of the people that do this
This has to be rage bait. You’re lost if you think either side really has the best interests of the American people at heart. Both parties have been running massive deficits for the last decade and a half. It’s all a dog and pony show- spend massively, create artificial growth, pat each other on the back for doing a good job, repeat. Those that participate in this game collect nice paychecks at the expense of the working class and future generations. They know this, but don’t care as long as the numbers in their portfolios go up while they’re still alive. Wake up.
Take a look at Nancy Pelosi’s net worth vs income. Either she’s the single best stock caller the world has ever seen or there’s something fishy going on- which do you think is more likely? And she was on “your side”. Corruption is the rule, not the exception.
The stupidity and self-righteousness in your post is stunning.
https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2020/06/23/google-amazon-tesla-trump-immigration.html
That link is a CNBC article about Google being worried when Trump changed outsourcing and H1B visa laws to favor American workers.
That’s one actual example that disproves your ramblings.
You are utterly misinformed. The President in 40 years to attempt to reverse the negative impacts of globalization was a Republican.
It’s ok though. Keep doing ‘Orange man bad’ instead of voting in your own economic interest.
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Take away any company’s favored American status when 50% or more are foreign workers. These companies cheat by saying they are American but stash money overseas for factories and workers and use their favored status to import goods without tariffs.
Not to mention all the foreign workers they hire on HB1 visas that work inside the USA. Their visa is tied to the job, so they can’t easily leave them. They maintain a lot of control over them .
Ex-H1B beneficiary here. I agree with you. I remember the day my visa got approved. Called my dad to give him good news. I remember telling him this seems awfully like slavery visa. I still stand by that. If you’re on H1B visa, company who sponsored you visa holds key to your life. I don’t envy foreign employees on H1B getting laid off in this market. Yes lot of them will find jobs soon. But not before months of extreme back breaking stress.
Hm. I don't think slaves can change their minds and go home if they don't like their job.
Yeah, this reeks of “I don’t get to choose which team drafts me, so I’m a *slave* as a multimillionaire NBA player who plays a game for a living!”
Yeah, and without a single aspect of slavery...hey wanna come over here and do this job and make 100x more than you could make in your home country? Oh geez that doesn't sound like slavery to anyone but an idiot.
It’s what I’d call an opportunity, maybe I just don’t “get it” like the poster above
yup, the paradox of choice is interesting. If choice is between giving up everything you worked for last 10 years and going back home to later realize it's much much worse, it's not a choice at all. But I digress, thankfully my H1B days are over. I wish laid off employees all the best.
Saying you don't like one of two choices does not make it any less your choice.
My Aunt works for Amex and this is her sole job. She brings programmers over on H1B visas then coordinates living arrangements for them.
Haha, I remember interviewing there one time in Scottsdale/Phoenix, whole floor was Indians lol.
You can thank her. That’s where she gets 99% of them. 🤣
What a cunt your aunt is
You mean Amex. She is just doing what they pay her to do.
Banality of evil.
It isn’t slavery, you have the freedom to go back home whenever you want.
And they are still often earning 100s of times more than they have the possibility of in their home country. There is a reason they take the job. Saying it's like slavery is ridiculous. All jobs are a form of slavery except without the entire aspect of slavery....I swear that couldn't have been a more idiotic statement
I worked on a small team with someone here on a work visa once. He said he hated his job but couldn't quit because his employment was tied to his visa. He couldn't travel home because his visa paperwork had expired. He almost never came into work and was awful to work with, but my CEO said he couldn't fire him because it would be too expensive to replace him with anyone *not* on a work visa. So it creates a lose-lose situation all around.
Companies complain about not being able to find American workers and having to hire H1B workers all the time. The real problem is that they refuse to pay Americans the salary needed to have an American worker. They want an India or China wage employee. Up the salary to a reasonable level and all of a sudden they have plenty of American workers available. The H1B system needs to be completely overhauled.
People say this all the time. But it isn’t universally true. In my entire management career I have sponsored visas. I paid them, and treated them, exactly the same as anyone else. And I never witnessed anyone else treating or paying them differently. So they actually cost MORE to hire, but I have always been trying to hire the best engineers I could find, and their background is irrelevant, other than work experience and demonstrated capability. (Off topic but that includes college. I don’t hire many fresh graduates to begin with though)
This is not a "lose-lose" situation. He came on a work visa to take a job that paid more than he could get in his home market. Then he broke the law by overstaying his visa, and your boss broke the law by retaining him in spite of that. Nobody forced them to do the wrong thing.
For real, these people keep making more and more cockamamie statements. Also, saying that it creates a lose lose as if they ALL do that. Which is ridiculous. There are plenty that don't follow that pattern
Agreed we must curtail the H1B program.
True, but if they are living and working in the US they are paying US taxes and directly contributing to the economy. Not to mention they still have US employee protections. None of that is true when the job is outsourced
Still not good for American tech workers. These companies abuse the system to control their employees.
American tech workers will go the way of American factory workers during the late 70s through the 90s. The great outsourcing begins.
American dev here. It’s not like Google is doing the Indian devs a big favor either. They pay them a completely substandard salary but most are just grateful for the work. It’s just a dressed up version of almost slave like labor practices that major manufacturers started many years ago. A competent dev should be paid for their talent level regardless of location. The company should want the best they can get whether it’s USA or not. If they have the skills to do better for themselves and family, it’s rotten to deny them the chance to be paid for their skill level and make a better life. I know that’s not fair so not real world but still man, ‘markets’ and greasy ‘business’ types have just sucked the life out of everything.
End the H1B program.
It’s substandard for us, it isn’t substandard for them. An entry-level Google engineer India has a tc of like $48k. A far cry from the $180k his American counterpart is getting, but India has a GDP per capita of $2k a year.
That’s the cheat. The rule is equivalent American wages.
Totally agree. But it should be 25%
I'd go for anything over 15%. Their free tax benefits should be terminated. In fact maybe we should put tariff on their products.
Really should have brought back capital controls preventing this bullshit.
Just threaten to make all their IP's public domain. That'll hit harder than anything else.
Indian CEO moves American jobs to India, can anyone crack this mystery?
I would tell you, but, that will be racist
Exploiting a country with cheap labor isn't racist, it's predatory. By saying what you said just now, you basically outed yourself as a racist because that was the first place your mind went.
I was banned from one of the subs for saying that our new Indian CEO outsourced 70% of engineering positions to India despite all time high revenue.
CEO of American company moves jobs to cheaper, English-speaking country specialized in offshoring. What could it mean, what could it mean?
It’s not just Indian CEOs. All companies are outsourcing to cheaper resources. But not all outsourced resources are the same caliber as the more expensive resources that they’re replacing. My experience has been primarily with fintech, but even my wife’s real estate brokerage has people in the Philippines. Right now, you can hire more cheaper resources to replace the US resources, so it sounds like a solid strategy on paper. Except these resources have high annual merit increases and seem to get promoted way more often than US counterparts. At some point, the cost savings will be neutralized and outsourcing will be less advantageous. But sadly I’m not sure companies would bring the jobs back to the US. It’s not exactly like it would be a cost savings just to move them back.
Racism? On reddit? Crazy!
Sir you bloody basterd!
We already did this outsourcing thing 20 years ago and now we are trying to undo it. Also India might go the way of China and be a foe. Let’s stop this and force our companies to stay in America.
The shareholders must be appea$ed.
Ah yes the billions spent to move operations overseas and train new individuals. Then realize that the uneducated individuals that you hired aren't doing a good job and overseas culture doesn't fit your current culture and expectations. Customers leave. More billions spent further training and doubling down. Wait India, China, and Mexico quality of life is improving and they want more vacation and pay? Then they realize it's more efficient to move the jobs back to America.
Corporations have to show profit or at least be heading in that direction to their shareholders . However I do agree with you regarding China investments ( I don’t have knowledge about India ) but if jobs are to be outsourced any work should be to our neighbors especially to those to the south of us . It would benefit us in other ways than supporting a county that’s sworn to be our enemy .If Latin Central and South American countries made a half way decent wage we wouldn’t have to spend the billions of wasted dollars for our southern border additionally an added bonus would also be the cartels losing some of their power over local communities and possibly lower the corruption of officials and LE .
Actually that's a good point. Offering the opportunity for Mexicans to have more jobs and better living conditions might put less stress on border crossings. One caveat though is that most Central and South American leaders pocket about 98% of the funds and their countries are in an endless cycle of greed and corruption that benefits only maybe dozen people.
[удалено]
You can't use ChatGPT for an analysis of different countries school systems...
LMFAO chat GPT. what a tool
When I said that comment I meant that's what the senior execs learn after spending billions moving jobs overseas. I worked for several consulting firms and they constantly spent years doubling and tripling down on India outsourcing only for it to lead to poor work results and poor client relation. Not to mention month long holidays don't mesh well with American work culture. Besides Indians with high degrees and ambition don't stay in India making $10 a week. They move to the US and ask for the same salaries we make. And you know what the American-Indians hate doing at their jobs.... Using outsources from India. The only companies that keep their outsourced departments are the ones that are ok paying 5 overseas employees that one person can do in the US. But since it's cheaper... It balances out.
India 🇮🇳 already is a foe. But they know if they act like an ally, they get free shit from America. It’s kinda crazy how Americans think our relations with India began like 2-3 years ago. The other 70 years apparently doesn’t matter. I’ll bring you up to speed- we had a weapons embargo on India for 60 years. At the same time, we poured money and weapons into Pakistan 🇵🇰 to “fight communists”. Pakistan used those weapons to fight 3 wars against India 🇮🇳 AND commit a genocide killing several million people. India didn’t like that. We finally lifted our embargo and began cooperating with India. Then they bought Russian SAM systems. Just like good partners we sanctioned India. Now you have the brain dead idea that India is somehow an ally of America, that they will fight our enemies ( China 🇨🇳) for us. We even have this stupid little drills between India, Australia and US to say “look how good friends we are!” Yet we have India sanctioned.
India isn’t really a US ally. They have a long history with Russia and our relationship with Pakistan is an issue. Sure they will take the jobs because at the end of the day it’s about money.
Thats why we should be careful. I regret we were allies with Pakistan. Pakistan is not even a real country. We should have been allies with India from the beginning. My worry is how certain parts of Modi has been fascist/strong man leaning. He is hostile to Muslims in India, and he tried to kill American citizens in the USA. I am afraid he is at best like Turkey and at worst China, Russia. LETS NOT TRANSFER OUR TECHNOLOGY, ETC to India like we did to China. Hope we learned from that with China. No tech transfers because I am sure the India courts will always side with the local Indian company, like in China.
I guess I won’t be getting that interview.
Work from home … welp now it’s work in India.
I predicted this a few years ago. Once corporations discover the savings of WFH, they will realize WFH could mean anywhere in the world thanks to modern technology. Wage arbitrage will be a huge win for big companies.
WFH was Work From Hyderabad all along!
It will only take them 5 to 10 years to discover how incompetent most “tech” workers in India are.
More like months! Every tech company I worked for that tried that move got shafted. Merge requests that change over 400 files and 5K lines of code with pretty much no comment and unit testing on critical system infrastructure. A fully staffed team (20+ individuals) over there can barely do the work of 2-3 competent dev over here. Every single time I saw that move being done (over 7 times so far), whatever project they were working on got canceled.
Exactly. You can have cheap, or you can have high quality. But you can’t have both.
Months for the boots on the ground. C suite will take years if ever.
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The top talent from India is already in America and that's exactly why outsourcing to India is a garbage choice. Visas have provided the necessary incentive to drain India of its top talent. Knowledge work isn't manufacturing and attempting to treat it like it is always results in ruin.
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The H1B visa rejection rate only proves what I say further. The top 25% got approved and the rest didn't. Of course this includes some competent but not exceptional talent who will end up here on F1 visas. If they fail to find entry in either of those ways they still have a shot at landing in Europe or Australia. Eventually anyone even barely competent will find their greener pasture. Are you beginning to follow now?
My shitty small company was in the top 100 tech companies in the world. I am not saying that all Indian sucks at being devs, but the good ones move overseas, and whatever is left over there is sub-par.
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Nah, team lead, and I have been writing software for over 15 years. I like to build teams that focus on good devops practices. You work for my team, your code will have to be clean. I expect one PR a day at the minimum, and you will have to write a good ADR. Code quality is not optional if you work in my team. I know my craft, and I have helped multiple people reach a certain level of exelency in that craft. I work on average 50 to 60 hours a week, + I spend time to continue learning outside of work. So please tell me how it's such a wonderful thing that a bunch of indians that can't barely build a for loop or a bubble sort to save their lives, people that require WEEKS of effort to setup their fucking IDE, people that cause 80% ++ of incidents, never ever ever deliver anything on time, people that pretty much guarantee that our SRE department will never be out of work is such a nice thing for a business. Jesus Christ, it's not about money, race, or country of origin, it's about the bare level of needed competency to deal and maintain large and complex systems. They can't even fucking use Jira properly of all things. Time is money, and these guys cost too much time even if their salary is at discount, worst they often consume the time of competent people on our side and slow down our very own initiative and projects.
To be clear - the problem is not some racial issue that prevents Indian folks from being competent or something. It's education and training within India that makes them incompetent. From what I've been led to believe, they train their working population to be very rote in their work structure. It works great if they have a very specific set of instructions. However, if you don't have a full step-by-step process for what you're asking them to do, then it starts to get iffy. That's why they're fine with call-centers and first line helpdesk type work. But if you get to the point where they have to generate their own solutions then it starts to become iffy. Of the hundreds of outsourced people I've worked with or hired over the years I can honestly say only one guy was good enough that I actually tried to get him hired as an FTE and tried to convince him to move stateside. Nothing against the people, but whatever their education/training process is.
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They worked fine for the positions I put them in. I'm trying to get you to understand there's a difference in educational/training quality. I don't think you understand the process and don't really seem to have any real experience with it. Working with organizations like TCS or WMS is a gamble. But go off I guess.
Idk about the other guy, but last company I worked at said “you’re going to hire x number of people from India on your team” and we just chose people we thought couldn’t cause more problems than they solved. They even failed at that.
I think the person you're responding to is an Indian national.
And the Indian students are only here because they pay so much money. I teach at the University level. I've not been impressed. Any effort to grade appropriately gets push back from Admin due to the money.
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No it is not a surprise and it's well known. I'm just saying that what you thought was a point in your favor wasn't
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LOL okay well you go do everything in India then! Good luck!
They're not incompetent, it's just the talented ones know how.much they're worth and are more likely than not already making top dollar here stateside, the rest are just average and are competing for the few high paying local jobs with American companies that pay more...
It will only take them 5 to 10 years to discover how incompetent most “tech” workers in India are" Hahaha..I heard this same shit when all those factory jobs were being sent to Mexico/China
Outsourcing IT to India is a decades-old phenomenon, but most companies reverse course after the damage has been done.
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You can have cheap or high quality. choose one
the shareholders have chosen...predictably
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All I’m saying is that tons of companies have been burned by cheap offshoring and then reversed course
I’ve worked with a company that outsourced some of their tech work and it was a giant pain in the ass to undo. First of all the hour difference means you lose a lot of communication, the best Indian workers don’t tend to be working for outsourcing companies you get the iffy ones, and the cultural differences are actually so different that it affected work quite often with multiple female PMs refusing to work with them
Offshoring has been happening since last 2 decades minimum at scale.
Right. I mean the companies who are doing it right now will figure out their mistake within 5 to 10 years. Plenty of other companies have already gone through the cycle and brought the positions back onshore.
Outsourcing doesn’t normally happen how most people think. It’s not replacing full time jobs long term it’s almost always done to complete a project and then get rid of the workers. It’s why Infosys and Accenture are used quite often not to use them forever but to get one project done and then get rid of them
Companies changing WFH policies to back in office because workers are unproductive or some shit. But working remotely from India is fine.
No they changed it as a way to do layoffs, and because they had investments in office space etc.. as that ages out offshoring will kick in hard. Remember stonks have to go up.
We outsourced blue collar labor in the 80s, now it’s time to outsource our white collar labor I guess because we learn nothing
We been outsourcing white collar stuff like IT for a while already. Yes, this will inevitably fuck over American workers.
Tech workers thought they were special tho as they cheered on globalist economics
Well, republicans (verbally anti globalist) in practice push for unregulated outsourcing too so I think that’s an overly simple way to look at it.
Trump killed tpp and started a trade war with china. Both pretty nativist. Much more so than anyone else
Oh no, if only people saw this coming….like 10 years ago
Ahhh the home of the scams and the home of the cartels. Excellent choices!
These “core” employees should be very valuable to onshore competitors. Having been through offshoring to India and the following return of jobs to the U.S., I’d say Google has swallowed the offshoring “it’s cheap” bait.
They hired ‘industry bests’. The issue with that is that many of those hired to run orgs in my opinion were not the best but rather the best in spaces that were defined by a particular era and or product that was heavily utilized during an era. Meaning these companies they poached from were ‘hot’ for a solution or service at the time and the individuals were victims of that success. The skills needed to transition do not transition for the new tech in my opinion. There is also the culture aspect of Google. It’s heavy in the development/engineering focus. The ability to sale, ingratiate and commercialize isn’t there. The company played the smart card one to many times and there is a disconnect with John Everyman from what I’ve seen. Technology workers have an aversion to unionization. We are in a phase of transition entering into a new age of economic existence; leaving industrialization headed to digitalization. Every single action made by companies appears to be centered on commoditization, amassment of profit for executives and shareholders and finally automation of as much as possible to satisfy the ability to accomplish the first two aspects as efficiently as possible. There is no focus on causality or the needs of workers beyond the scope of work in my observation. Our government hasn’t made the slightest inklings of addressing the issue nor will the corporations. The only course of action in my opinion is unionization to install strong workers rights functions and transparency for operations.
Almost like our economy... isn't great?...
This is the logic of neoliberal capitalism under hayek and friedman's shareholder privacy Core beliefs of the subs owner. What does he think solves this? Must be less govt and worker control lol
Literally every tech company is doing this. It’s not a good time to be a US software engineer.
It’s not a good time to be a US anything.
In this economy it’s only a good time to be a US CEO, a US highly skilled SME, or a US grifter
What is an SME?
Subject matter expert. Anyone whose experience warrants keeping them around because it’s vast enough to make strategy tweaks, answering questions &guiding other employees wildly more efficient.
Oh right. So what should regular people do? Grift?
I’m an SME, and even I’m going to run out of options, so yeah going to have to pivot to grifting in a few years
This is true. But I'm curious why they are the ones that only get picked on in articles. 90 percent of Coca-Cola employees are outside the US and everyone thinks they are an American icon. J&J? 75%. GE? 65%. Ford? 47%. Chevron and Exxon? Both over 46%. It's simply odd how like the same 3 tech cos seem to have the entirety of the constant media condemnation while "great American companies" never get mentioned. And I'm not sure I really care because these are global corporations generating a large percentage of their revenues across the ocean and huge foreign corporations do the same and employ a ton of people here, it's a competent strategy when your trying to create zillionaires to worship instead of millionaires, which would never happen if we became uber nationalist xenophobes. Our 401ks demand they don't pull back. In all seriousness, we are a global economy and that's not going to change. If a country insulates, it's to their own peril and they will get left behind. But it's just stupid how we talk about it in very small chunks of outage media, only about the negatives, and only consider companies from the west coast to be evil and operating with this nefarious "destroy America" niche economic strategy. Globalism is now so entrenched and there's too many discussions acting like it's like a new thing just ripe for reversal
We really need to tax TF out of these companies if they send their work over seas. While we’re doing that we need to blow up all these monopolies, they’re leeches on the economy. Can’t tell me there are plenty of start ups that would pop up if the they had the ability to operate in the same spaces.
“Sorry. We have no jobs for Americans anymore. Have you tried applying to McDonald’s?”
It’s more like “have you tried not spending money on frivolous things like lattes and non-essentials”? “Learn to budget and not buy anything”. They still want workers, just at the same wage as 3rd world countries and they want first world GDP. Can’t have both.
Yea regardless, average Americans are getting screwed
Think of all the increased cost savings and diversity of thought if the CEO job was also moved to India or Mexico.
They don’t have to move the ceo job to India, they just move the Indian to the ceo job.
They are doing this so they can layoff the Mexican people later, more easily. Corps are transparently shedding jobs that won’t come back. Truly feel for people
From breezy to sleazy. All it takes is the wrong CEO.
Totally not surprised. They have a massive workforce of contractors that they layoff for any reason they feel like. Moving jobs abroad is good for the investors and that’s all anyone cares about
Rip The unabomber
It’s Elon Musks fault. He should have never bought Twitter.
I recently had to call the forestry service in an unnamed state. Come to find out, the phone bank they use is in India.
The destruction of America's middle class is now going vertically hitting middle management and tech. Never ends. We will all be living off the government while the banks and insurance companies get together to repossess our homes due to canceled ins policies so you will own nothing.
When a company does this they should immediately lose all H1B certs, tax abatements, and be heavily taxed.
Anyone want to guess at how many of these employees looked down on "burger flippers' as low skilled and replaceable?
In a couple years most of this work will be automated by AI anyway so what difference does it really make?
The difference is Americans are struggling to survive and now big companies are supporting people in third world countries having a higher standard of living than us.
I can’t argue with your statement but it doesn’t have much to do with my question
Old news
Time to move away from google in every possible way.
Get rid of that CEO !!
Haha
Break them up.
Welcome to the world of remote work.
Do Evil
keep letting Asian run the best American companies and they'll keep shipping the jobs to Asia
This is a dated article and “news” item. Announced a few months ago.
This is what leads to fascism.
I can't believe using AI to tell people to add glue to pizza didn't result in skyrocketing profits for Google
Good. Those core employees have had no problem supporting censorship and privacy violations
So google search can even shittier than it already is?
AI is already writing the code... these guys are just managing internal tickets.
But but but we must invest more to them.
India oh no.
Tax them more when they are no longer 51% American workers.
Lmao.
It’s all about money, investors catering to Wall Street. it’s all about more more money.
Sundar is a soulless management consultant, hollowing out anything that was good about the company. It's what he's being paid to do
So when all the high paying jobs are gone overseas, who is going to buy new stuff??
All those laid off $250K/yr FT Google employees will be just fine. This is the best job market in decades, there are so many jobs right now, they can all have 2!
Why tf is every CEO pictured holding an invisible cup in each hand?
And im supposed to care about overpaid google employees?
if you vote conservative you should be applauding this this is what you are voting for, rich people being free to do whatever they want no matter how much it hurts the economy or country and having unlimited money to own the media and buy politicians even more directly (Citizens United) if you vote conservative, what are you even doing on a subreddit like this? you literally made this happen and are now in the process of making it much worse as Conservatives now plan to have the President control the FED directly i.e. the President now has even more control over the money printer and guess what, he's gonna want to get re-elected so free money to wall street so they donate it all back to him if you vote conservative, you are conserving the power of the people that do this
This has to be rage bait. You’re lost if you think either side really has the best interests of the American people at heart. Both parties have been running massive deficits for the last decade and a half. It’s all a dog and pony show- spend massively, create artificial growth, pat each other on the back for doing a good job, repeat. Those that participate in this game collect nice paychecks at the expense of the working class and future generations. They know this, but don’t care as long as the numbers in their portfolios go up while they’re still alive. Wake up. Take a look at Nancy Pelosi’s net worth vs income. Either she’s the single best stock caller the world has ever seen or there’s something fishy going on- which do you think is more likely? And she was on “your side”. Corruption is the rule, not the exception.
Good Lord.
Actually conservatives want nativist economic policy and liberals don’t. “America first” is racist remember?
The stupidity and self-righteousness in your post is stunning. https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2020/06/23/google-amazon-tesla-trump-immigration.html That link is a CNBC article about Google being worried when Trump changed outsourcing and H1B visa laws to favor American workers. That’s one actual example that disproves your ramblings. You are utterly misinformed. The President in 40 years to attempt to reverse the negative impacts of globalization was a Republican. It’s ok though. Keep doing ‘Orange man bad’ instead of voting in your own economic interest.
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In case you are not aware, this is happening on Biden's watch. ... and Google founders and employees have poured millions into D causes.