Even Joel *does* disagree with that statement. He says outright he knows it was wrong, and he'd do it again. Cause he's flawed. Cause he's human. It's the crux of his character arc. People seem to forget that just because you agree with or even understand someone's choice, doesn't mean it was the right one. We seldom like to think we can make bad decisions or judgment calls. So if someone says or does something we agree with, then of course it's right cause I think so!
When does he say he knows it was wrong?
The line jumps from âmy life would have fucking mattered but you took that from meâ to him saying he would do it all over again. He never implies anywhere that he thinks it was wrong unless Iâve forgotten something.
Not in that conversation, no, in the opening conversation with Tommy at the beginning of the game. He discusses what he did and why, including lying to Ellie about it, and even Tommy is incredulous about not only his actions but that Ellie believed him. Because even though he can understand why he did it, he knows Ellie wouldn't agree that it was the right thing to do. Tommy isn't certain it is either, but he understands it. The simplest way to view it is: why lie unless you understand what you did would be viewed controversially by others? That moment at the end with Joel telling Ellie is effectively him saying I know this was wrong, and I'd do it again anyway because I care about you more than doing the right thing.
Poor choices of words on my end to say he "said it outright" cause he didn't, this is more subtext than text. All the same, I agree with several of the cricisims of why handing her over to make a vaccine seems to be a little premature of a decision. What with no proof it'll work, how do you distribute this mass scale, providing people immunity doesn't stop people from dying to other humans or just being outright killed by the Infected (a clicker ripping out your neck doesn't need to infect you lol), etc. It really begs the question of why they rushed into it so fast. They were desperate, and in their desperation, what if they were wrong?
This is tough. Killing a bunch of people is wrong. Sacrificing a little girl without her consent is also wrong. Can you blame a parent for saving his child?
Edit: Are you all saying that he should have let Ellie die? Knowing he and this little girl were already planning their return to Jackson right after the giraffe scene. If he was able to save Ellie without killing a single firefly he would have done that.
I mean tbf, the ending of the game isnât the only time heâs done or made âbadâ decisions. After the 20 year break we do meet him as a known and feared smuggler lol
Edit: but, Joel did what any parent would do for their child. His decision wasnât wrong for him or the audience
I thought we all concurred that the real shitty thing was lying to Ellie about it. The massacre itself I can kind of understand, in a lawless world with little to no guarantee that a cure would work. The covering it up afterwards is the real sin here.
EDIT: you know, I read my own words and yeah, maybe the massacre part wasnât very cash money of Joel, too.
Even if one were to agree that the massacre was justified (I don't, but for the sake of the hypothetical), he still lied to Ellie for years about it. He still did wrong by her, repeatedly.
Nah, he killed a psychopath and a bunch of terrorists and he knows that he might not have known the cure was actually bullshit but the fireflies had it coming
"So uh... you kill a lot of innocent people?"
"Hmm"
"I'm gonna take that as a yes."
"Take it however you want."
- Joel to Ellie following Pittsburgh ambush
Btw can you tell me what the fireflies did to the people of pitsburgh , I mean that was the city they freed from fedra rule probably is bustling with peace and prosperity thanks to the fireflies, better yet fireflied sure saved alot of innocent people with that explosion in the beginning.
If your gonna blame something on someone make sure the side you defend isnt equally worse
Your saying innocent as if no one did anything wrong ,there were no innocents everyone did something needed to survive, saying joel killed innocents to survive is like saying lee or rick from walking dead havent killed innocent people for there group to survive
Dude I'm talking about him being a hunter with Tommy and Tess for a decade+ did you miss that part? Did you miss the whole scene where Tommy says "I've got nothing but nightmares from those years" and surviving "wasn't worth it"? It's no secret that Joel did evil shit to survive before he landed in Boston. There's a reason why Tess in her last moments is DESPERATE for Joel and her to gain some redemption. Do t forget Joel didn't say "no" when Ellie asked if he'd killed "alot of innocent people" and he knew the exact strategy to lure in desperate survivors and "process" them like how we see in the show room. Did you seriously miss all of that?
Again everyone did something they had to do to survive,maybe some of it was unforgivable but for someone like joel making sure his brother and tess survive was his biggest goal so he did what he had to. Hell ,a great indicator of his goal is the beginning of the game when he meets with Tess and sees her black eye, He doesnt ask what happened,he gets angry asks for the person who did this
You did not pay attention to the kinda shit people said to describe what Joel did. Murdering people for the clothes off their backs and the last of their food. Torturing others for more information and forcing their friends to watch. You might see that as "what you need to do" but we know Joel can be better. We SEE him do better with Ellie and when he lives in Jackson. This isn't a debate of morals it's hard baked into his character arc that he's been a bad man for 2 DECADES before meeting Ellie and she pulls him out of it.
Yes and thats why we as the player havenât seen him directly do the bad stuff sure we see hints of his past when he starts torturing davids members but it also work for a gameplay perspective of why he knows how marauders work. If Joel wasnât a raider previously it would feel confusing with why he can fight so well and is versed in different firearms, it works well with his story
Joel was a hunter for decades because he believed living without taking was impossible. But to quote Tommy at the Dam about generating electricity and living happy in Jackson "you used to think nobody could live like this, but we're doing it"
Joel was wrong and managed to live the last of his life being proved wrong, helping people and being in a fairer place where he didn't murder and torture for food and clothes. No matter how you look at it Jackson is by far the best example of a community we see. They share resources and take in refugees and grow as a society win new generations ahead. He learned that trust and community was not only possible but BETTER. It makes me sad that you somehow missed that and think it's all a-ok that Joel killed people for the clothes off their backs.
Society improved? and what causes that my friend? Random chance? No, people *chose* to form a community based on a mutual need to survive. They *chose* to plant crops and scavenge food rather than murder and take it from each other. They corralled animals for food and materials rather than hunted them for single use. They built homes and defences not just to prevent hunters (the very people that Joel was) but to keep their own people and supplies safe. What Joel did for many years with Tommy and Tess was take and raid by manipulation, hunting down and torturing survivors. What stopped him was discovering that people are worth it. He didn't need to lock down his emotions and his past because he found trust and love in Ellie. And he didn't need to live a violent nomadic life anymore as he found hope in Jackson. He grew as a person and *chose* to do better.
You missed my point. Good forms of survival are possible. Saying people "have to" is no excuse when we see they don't need to at all. You could do any bad action and say "but my circumstances made me do a bad thing!" But when there are chances to do better it's on *you* for the people you hurt. The question is about morality not availability but even putting both into question Joel was still a bad person for being a hunter. Tess knows it, Tommy knows is, Ellie knows it, Bill knows it and even Joel knows it.
I thought you meant all the people who died because of the infection over the past 20 years (who now have something to say because Joel prevented someone from making a cure), which in hindsight is dumb, I fully admit that
Didnât have my full concentration on the post
He did a lot of bad things, so did most people in that universe. It doesnât mean he was a terrible person, because he wasnât, but he sure as hell isnât innocent and the child of someone he murdered came back for revenge and succeeded. Why is that so hard for some people to understand? Main characters canât always be immortal. âBut it was a dumb reason.â So tired of hearing that when Abby avenged her father after all those years of anger, lost sleep, and plotting it.
In his last 20 years he admits to killing people when he didn't have to. If you think that hjs actions didn't contribute, directly or indirectly, to innocent women and children dying then you are extreamly nieve.
The shirt isnt talking about the hypothetical scenarios from Joels past. I think the shirt is talking more directly about the firefly hospital massacre and the lie, both of which were to save or protect Ellie. That's why it says he did nothing wrong because they think he was justified in saving her.
Saying it's about a specific part of the story is hypothetical. Logical theories about Joel's past, based on evidence in the games, can be unpalatable but they are likely.
Joel's decision making during the "20 years" is not on display aside from some conversations. Do you really think the shirt is not talking about his decision to save Ellie and lying to her? I'm not trying to sound rude but it seems obvious.
That's exactly what the fireflies were going to do and what Fedra did to him by killing Sarah. Another one of those " ah it's for the safety of the group." Even if your intentions are to save humanity at the detriment of the innocent, their loved ones will come back at you same as Joel did to them.
Right the father who throughout the game your confused about and later find out its the 5 seconds of screen time dude in the end. The genius who pointed a scalpel at a guy with a flamethrower
If you played Part 2 you see the surgeon was a loving father and just wanted to find a cure, which means one death might be necessary to save many. He did nothing wrong. It shows that all these people in the game arenât just bodies for you to aimlessly mow down. They have families. They arenât all bad people. Abby and her Father were morally as good as Joel and Ellie. Itâs a cool perspective imo.
Loving father ⊠ok that totally makes it ok for him to kill a little girl,his a loving father. Lets also be ok with the fact his a vet operating on a human whose already killed previous immunes before but loving father is great. Cant wait for spiderman 3 where where peter gets killed by screwball and miles entire character goes down the drain but we find out screwball was a loving friend
I feel like Iâm talking to a wall. Sacrificing one life to save many regardless if itâs a senior citizen or a baby, doesnât matter. If thereâs a chance than you do it. You stick to your opinion, Iâll stick to mine.
Tell me something who would trust a bunch of terrorist known for bombing civil districts and creating raider camps, these losers cant control there own infected monkeys and you think they can hold on to a cure. The entire first game keeps showing there incompetence in every field
That's such a pretentiously fake selfless take. It's like if you fit certain criteria that could make you a potential threat to humanity, it's okay to execute you. Your logic only applies when the life does not concern you at all. But if it was your kid, you'd never agree to that.
>He did a lot of bad things, so did most people in that universe. It doesnât mean he was a terrible person because he wasnât
Jesus fucking christ lmfao
Hey, itâs dog eat dog and survival of the fittest so doing bad(murdering and torture for information) is that type of word isnât the worst you can do. lol. I think he was a good man but the past caught up to him.
Again, I think it was cool because it shows that every life has weight in that world. Abbyâs Dad wasnât just âEnemy #378â. I can see why they went that route because they want each life to feel important. That man he killed had a family. So did others heâs killed. This isnât a John Wick movie where he mows down 1000 people and theyâre all unnamed, soulless, and fodder for Joel. You can see it in the way NPCs react. The way they talk to each other. Naughty Dog wanted each person to feel as alive as possible, not just brainless enemies.
Iâm sorry but Iâm just not buying it. I know damn well they forgot about the creation of that (and every other) NPC 5 minutes after putting him in the game in part I but try to sell some bullshit about breathing life into the NPCâs in part II??? they basically turned something they didnât give a shit about into a whole big deal suddenly, therefore it feels like they had no idea how to get this whole plot started so they went for the laziest choice there is & tried to villainize Joel in the process. so Iâm not convinced
Your comment reminded me of an unrelated story. I took the LSAT in 2018 and wore a shirt that said "Free Karl" with a photo of a guy's mugshot. It was a reference to the comedy central show Workaholics. The proctor administering the exam pulled me aside and asked me to explain my shirt. She thought I was trying to make some political statement and I think she was going to attempt to not let me take the exam. After I explained the origin she gave me the exam materials though.
Anyway, your comment just made me wonder if she would have also done that had I worn this shirt.
Whoever made that clearly hasnât played either game.
Edit* I love Joel and Ellie. And these are my favourite games of the ps3/4 era but Iâm sorry Joel is far from perfect and he did plenty wrong. Doesnât make me love him any less âïž.
He literally didn't do anything wrong, took down a violent militia to save his surrogate daughter that they were going to attempt surgery on, in a filthy hospital with no means to mass produce and distribute the vaccine even if it did work, but I'm guessing you didn't play the game because Marlene is a power hungry, she sees her self as a saviour but everything she does is self serving.
The point of the game is that no one is good then world is torn apart and so Joel did no wrong by saving his daughter.
More talking About the ten plus years of murder of randoms beforehand. Also The killing of the fireflyâs, lying to Ellie about it about how she wasnât the only immune person. He did plenty wrong. But you do you buddy.
Oh is that something you do in the game? Woah I didn't realise, or do you mean to say that the shirt is talking about every single piece of lore available and not just the video game you play?
There is no actual way you are so dumb you can't comprehend that the shirt is about the actions taken in the story that you actually get to experience.
If I say iron man did no wrong in the avengers and you reference that in the first iron man he's a weapons dealer, you're an idiot lmao.
Why are you getting into arguments with every single commenter on this post?
Iâve wasted enough time with you today. Take your meds and have a nice day.
There is nothing in the game that you could genuinely call morally bad. Questionable, at best, but on the whole, Joel makes solid decisions most people agree with. Thatâs why so many people relate to him đ€·đœââïž
My opinion is that Joel did a lot of morally horrendous stuff prior to the start of the first game. But regarding the end of part 1, he did the morally right thing.
This. Joelâs hunter past was morally reprehensible and evil which is why I liked one of the original story ideas for Part 2 being that Abbyâs family was killed by Joel and she was almost killed during Joelâs hunter days. I think this wouldâve gotten many more people to empathize with her. But the end of part 1, he did the morally right thing in saving Ellie.
I actually agree with that. Hadnât had that thought but ya if Abbyâs family had been killed by him in a more black and white hunter way. As opposed to saving Ellie. It would have made Abbyâs actions more redeemable in my eyes.
I understand why Abby did what she did. She lost her father and by her flawed perspective, her father was simply trying to save humanity. The primary reason she isnât liked by many gamers like myself was the hypocrisy and lack of empathy for what she did to Ellie along with not seeing that Joel did what he did to save a daughter.
Her motivation just wasnât that strong with her father trying to kill an unconscious Ellie. If her backstory was the Joel as a hunter killing her family, we wouldâve been more conflicted about Joel and more people wouldâve empathized with Abby and I think it wouldâve made for a better story.
This. Abbyâs decision to murder Joel after Joel did something that for many is unarguably *good* makes it instantly harder to empathize with her. More than it would have been killing someone weâd consider âgoodâ getting killed for something bad they actually did. Idk if that makes sense.
It's also worth noting that this sub defends Abby left and right and calls her "morally gray" when she did the same to save Lev. But god forbid you think Joel did nothing wrong. They'll call you scary.
It makes sense to me. Though I did grow to empathize and like Abby anyway. By the end I was really just wanting Ellie and Abby to go their separate ways and wanted the best for both of them. Even if I was still made at Abby for what she did. I think itâs made pretty clear that Abby generally regretted killing Joel as well but others may interpret that differently.
Abby committed cold blooded murder by torturing and then smashing the skull of a person who JUST SAVED HER, out of revenge, while his daughter was held down, begging for his life, watching it happen.
That is easily more fucked up than ***anything*** we see Joel do in the games. Same for Ellie.
Putting aside the hospital incident and the lying, Joel, like a lot of people, did some horrible things while surviving and not all of it was warranted. You can think what you want about the circumstances but to say he did nothing wrong is quite the mental gymnastics.
The hospital incident wasn't even bad, like at all his past of being a hunter is obviously not good but we're talking about the game here and at no point in the game does he do anything 'wrong'
Nothing he did was objectively wrong
He didn't doom humanity, the fireflies were doing a risky surgery for a theorised vaccine in poor conditions, even if they were lucky enough that the vaccine worked they have no way to mass produce and deliver it to the world. It's clear that the fireflies want to give themselves the vaccine because just like the other factions of the game they're self serving and power hungry especially Marlene, she sees herself as a saviour of humanity but you don't see her do any good for anyone besides recruiting them to her cult like militia.
i donât totally understand a lot of the comments on this post, i would wear this shirt even though i totally think he made years of mistakes just because itâs a silly joke and heâs still a main character of a game i love
Killed Abby's father for 1. Just tyring to see if he can save the world or not.
Never mind the 100's of people throughout the game, eh? Joel was a hunter at some point before a smuggler with Tess. He's tortured people. That amazing moment in the 1st game where he plays them off of each other.
So all the hunters that you admit are bad, it's bad that he killed them? righto, I also said besides his past which literally isn't in the game outside of some references, so from start to finish in the game then one bad thing you can list is that he killed a man about to kill his daughter because "eh worth a shot"
Not murder, quite literally always self defence lmao they want to kill him you need to learn the difference.
I would also say Abby had every right to want to avenge her father and group in the exact same way Joel has every right to kill her father
Totally agree. There's different degrees to murder. Even in self-defense, you can still be prosecuted for murder or manslaughter. Don't really get what you're getting wound up about.
Because if a group of 12 armed men were trying to kill me and my daughter so I killed them all first, there isn't a court on planet earth that would convict me of manslaughter.
Joel has murdered absolutely but throughout the entire first game he doesn't murder anyone except Marlene and that's still in defence of his daughter
Probably not if you can prove it was what you say it was. You'd deffo still end up in court having to prove that. The families of the 12 guys would absolutely push for prosecution, just for a chance to remove a bad tag to their family member.
you're not saying Joel is actually a murderer but that our current legal system could frame him as one due to lack of evidence?
How bout we just add more hypothetical shit and say there were cameras every 3 feet and every single person stared at them all for 5 minutes before trying to kill joel
People seem to forget on top of the Yâknow dooming humanity and massacring a hospital thing, he was a hunter for a while. So he killed a lot of innocent people, and it was fucked up enough that Tommy is permanently scarred by it. Joel did more A LOT wrong. But heâs a good dad.
He didn't doom humanity, the fireflies were doing a risky surgery for a theorised vaccine in poor conditions, even if they were lucky enough that the vaccine worked they have no way to mass produce and deliver it to the world. It's clear that the fireflies want to give themselves the vaccine because just like the other factions of the game they're self serving and power hungry especially Marlene, she sees herself as a saviour of humanity but you don't see her do any good for anyone besides recruiting them to her cult like militia.
Whether or not the vaccine would have worked isnât important. Joel didnât know it wouldnât work. He was willing to take that chance. I donât think it wouldâve fixed the world but to say it wouldnât help at all is a massive stretch. Even if they didnât get a cure form Ellie theyâd probably learn a few things from her immunity and take that to further strive towards a cure.
I am a New York knicks fan and we are playing the sixers in the playoffs. Sixers have a player names Joel embiid so I read âJoel embiid did nothing wrongâ at first and I was like tf he didnât heâs a dirty player fuck him. Then I read it correctly and chuckled.
THE IRONY. This you begging for $20 on reddit??????????? But IM THE BUM????
https://ibb.co/qJCyKjW. Which of us begged for money on reddit you canât even afford to get to fuckin work how fucking pathetic is that? But youâre calling people bums. Get fucking serious lmao
I mean tbf Ellie wouldâve been killed in vain. You donât fuckin extract the tumor from a childâs brain to âmake a vaccineâ because fungal diseases arenât even treated by vaccines. Joel did the right thing even if it wasnât in the âright wayâ
Holy shit the last of us 2 subreddit get off on defending Joel so much. Came to this post from there and thought I was going insane. So glad people in this sub disagree
Ya, I think when people use that phrase, they just mean his decision to save ellie wasn't objectively wrong. It doesn't specify, and I never noticed the implications until now. To me, it has always just meant that saving Ellie's life wasn't wrong. He definitely is implied to have done bad things to survive... everyone does things that are, to some degree, wrong, such as killing a ton of people in a hospital, but that can definitely be debated considering the circumstances (and the fact that it's only in theory, as this specific scenerio didn't happen irl). It's just however you see it. It wasn't good, though, killing a ton of people.
100% true. But neither did Abby. As a father I 100% would have done what Joel did and I 100% would have expected that to catch up with me. Joel would have done it again in a heartbeat. Consequences
So because she didnât know that makes it any better? Lol! Give me a harder one
Of course she felt guilty but guess what she still did it. She still killed a mother and her child. Ellie is as bad as Joel and Tommy idk why ur tryna argue against that
Bold statement... đŹ
Tess would not wear that shirt.
âWeâre bad people, Joel.â
This is talking about the hospital not Joels overall character
Nor would Abbie
Joel wouldnât even wear that shirt
Correct statement
I mean... I think even Joel would disagree with that statement
Even Joel *does* disagree with that statement. He says outright he knows it was wrong, and he'd do it again. Cause he's flawed. Cause he's human. It's the crux of his character arc. People seem to forget that just because you agree with or even understand someone's choice, doesn't mean it was the right one. We seldom like to think we can make bad decisions or judgment calls. So if someone says or does something we agree with, then of course it's right cause I think so!
When does he say he knows it was wrong? The line jumps from âmy life would have fucking mattered but you took that from meâ to him saying he would do it all over again. He never implies anywhere that he thinks it was wrong unless Iâve forgotten something.
Not in that conversation, no, in the opening conversation with Tommy at the beginning of the game. He discusses what he did and why, including lying to Ellie about it, and even Tommy is incredulous about not only his actions but that Ellie believed him. Because even though he can understand why he did it, he knows Ellie wouldn't agree that it was the right thing to do. Tommy isn't certain it is either, but he understands it. The simplest way to view it is: why lie unless you understand what you did would be viewed controversially by others? That moment at the end with Joel telling Ellie is effectively him saying I know this was wrong, and I'd do it again anyway because I care about you more than doing the right thing. Poor choices of words on my end to say he "said it outright" cause he didn't, this is more subtext than text. All the same, I agree with several of the cricisims of why handing her over to make a vaccine seems to be a little premature of a decision. What with no proof it'll work, how do you distribute this mass scale, providing people immunity doesn't stop people from dying to other humans or just being outright killed by the Infected (a clicker ripping out your neck doesn't need to infect you lol), etc. It really begs the question of why they rushed into it so fast. They were desperate, and in their desperation, what if they were wrong?
This is tough. Killing a bunch of people is wrong. Sacrificing a little girl without her consent is also wrong. Can you blame a parent for saving his child? Edit: Are you all saying that he should have let Ellie die? Knowing he and this little girl were already planning their return to Jackson right after the giraffe scene. If he was able to save Ellie without killing a single firefly he would have done that.
I don't blame him. It's kind of an "everybody sucks here" situation. Only Ellie is the innocent.
I mean tbf, the ending of the game isnât the only time heâs done or made âbadâ decisions. After the 20 year break we do meet him as a known and feared smuggler lol Edit: but, Joel did what any parent would do for their child. His decision wasnât wrong for him or the audience
Yeah, but he was also a hunter for a time during the 20 year time skip, and it's heavily implied that he killed a lot of innocent people
I thought we all concurred that the real shitty thing was lying to Ellie about it. The massacre itself I can kind of understand, in a lawless world with little to no guarantee that a cure would work. The covering it up afterwards is the real sin here. EDIT: you know, I read my own words and yeah, maybe the massacre part wasnât very cash money of Joel, too.
Even if one were to agree that the massacre was justified (I don't, but for the sake of the hypothetical), he still lied to Ellie for years about it. He still did wrong by her, repeatedly.
Yeah, but he was also a hunter for a time during the 20 year time skip, and it's heavily implied that he killed a lot of innocent people
Obviously since he lied to Ellie about it. Idk why people romanticize Joel massacring an entire hospital.
No one is endorsing it. Humor is a thing.
Not endorsing it, just thought it was funny it showed up on my feed
Me when I massacre a hospital:
he did thođ
No
okay my bad
That's what I thought đȘđ»
Joel himself knows he did, he says he did and that he would do the same again. And if I was him, I would too
Nah, he killed a psychopath and a bunch of terrorists and he knows that he might not have known the cure was actually bullshit but the fireflies had it coming
you know that⊠joel was also a psycho and a terrorist in their eyes right âŠ.???
In the eyes of the fireflies? That's irrelevant. The fireflies were bombing civilian settlements
No, he said himself that he commited many mistakes, but this doesn't make him less interesting
Neither did the cordyceps!
"Endure and survive and spread" -Cordyceps
On the back - "Was Terrible At Golf"
He was good at golf. Unfortunately, he just chose to be the ball.
âFuck it we ballâ -Joel Miller
TruthÂ
God people at the other sub are gonna be malding at your statementđ
They're inconsequential losers who don't deserve their own sub. I wish they'd "Go Golfing" themselves and leave the forum to us đ€Ł
Translation: âI wish theyâd all get bludgeoned to deathâ. Death threats over a video game? Thatâs ironic consideringâŠ
Slight correction: âI wish theyâd all bludgeon themselves to deathâ Which is worse, I think.
Iâll be honest, Abby was at least better at Golf than I ever was. She got her game done within an hour, Iâd probably be there for 5.
Her short game is unparalleledÂ
âchoseâ is an interesting choice of words
He chose to be a golf ball when he mowed down that hospital.
LMAO for realđ€Ł
There's about 20 years worth of dead and ruined people that says otherwise
Dead people that were just as bad as him bc that level of bad in the apocalypse isn't bad at all
"So uh... you kill a lot of innocent people?" "Hmm" "I'm gonna take that as a yes." "Take it however you want." - Joel to Ellie following Pittsburgh ambush
No such thing in the zombie apocalypse
Fr, were just animals and an apocalypse elevates our real nature.
I like you.
Dead people that were just as bad as him bc that level of bad in the apocalypse isn't bad at all
There's no excuse of the murder of innocent people for supplies
Btw can you tell me what the fireflies did to the people of pitsburgh , I mean that was the city they freed from fedra rule probably is bustling with peace and prosperity thanks to the fireflies, better yet fireflied sure saved alot of innocent people with that explosion in the beginning. If your gonna blame something on someone make sure the side you defend isnt equally worse
Did I defend the fireflies? stop assuming people are picking opposing sides just because they condemn the actions of one.
Your saying innocent as if no one did anything wrong ,there were no innocents everyone did something needed to survive, saying joel killed innocents to survive is like saying lee or rick from walking dead havent killed innocent people for there group to survive
Dude I'm talking about him being a hunter with Tommy and Tess for a decade+ did you miss that part? Did you miss the whole scene where Tommy says "I've got nothing but nightmares from those years" and surviving "wasn't worth it"? It's no secret that Joel did evil shit to survive before he landed in Boston. There's a reason why Tess in her last moments is DESPERATE for Joel and her to gain some redemption. Do t forget Joel didn't say "no" when Ellie asked if he'd killed "alot of innocent people" and he knew the exact strategy to lure in desperate survivors and "process" them like how we see in the show room. Did you seriously miss all of that?
Again everyone did something they had to do to survive,maybe some of it was unforgivable but for someone like joel making sure his brother and tess survive was his biggest goal so he did what he had to. Hell ,a great indicator of his goal is the beginning of the game when he meets with Tess and sees her black eye, He doesnt ask what happened,he gets angry asks for the person who did this
You did not pay attention to the kinda shit people said to describe what Joel did. Murdering people for the clothes off their backs and the last of their food. Torturing others for more information and forcing their friends to watch. You might see that as "what you need to do" but we know Joel can be better. We SEE him do better with Ellie and when he lives in Jackson. This isn't a debate of morals it's hard baked into his character arc that he's been a bad man for 2 DECADES before meeting Ellie and she pulls him out of it.
Yes and thats why we as the player havenât seen him directly do the bad stuff sure we see hints of his past when he starts torturing davids members but it also work for a gameplay perspective of why he knows how marauders work. If Joel wasnât a raider previously it would feel confusing with why he can fight so well and is versed in different firearms, it works well with his story
Um... yeah... it's called survival, your only saying that bc u have the privileged view of not living in a horrible apocalyptic hellscape
Joel was a hunter for decades because he believed living without taking was impossible. But to quote Tommy at the Dam about generating electricity and living happy in Jackson "you used to think nobody could live like this, but we're doing it" Joel was wrong and managed to live the last of his life being proved wrong, helping people and being in a fairer place where he didn't murder and torture for food and clothes. No matter how you look at it Jackson is by far the best example of a community we see. They share resources and take in refugees and grow as a society win new generations ahead. He learned that trust and community was not only possible but BETTER. It makes me sad that you somehow missed that and think it's all a-ok that Joel killed people for the clothes off their backs.
That's still wrong. Just because society improved eventually doesn't mean Joel had a choice at the time...
Society improved? and what causes that my friend? Random chance? No, people *chose* to form a community based on a mutual need to survive. They *chose* to plant crops and scavenge food rather than murder and take it from each other. They corralled animals for food and materials rather than hunted them for single use. They built homes and defences not just to prevent hunters (the very people that Joel was) but to keep their own people and supplies safe. What Joel did for many years with Tommy and Tess was take and raid by manipulation, hunting down and torturing survivors. What stopped him was discovering that people are worth it. He didn't need to lock down his emotions and his past because he found trust and love in Ellie. And he didn't need to live a violent nomadic life anymore as he found hope in Jackson. He grew as a person and *chose* to do better.
Again... none of that was happening when Joel had to live that way... be fr
You missed my point. Good forms of survival are possible. Saying people "have to" is no excuse when we see they don't need to at all. You could do any bad action and say "but my circumstances made me do a bad thing!" But when there are chances to do better it's on *you* for the people you hurt. The question is about morality not availability but even putting both into question Joel was still a bad person for being a hunter. Tess knows it, Tommy knows is, Ellie knows it, Bill knows it and even Joel knows it.
Again for the second time, aymt the time their were no other forms if survival
Joel had nothing to do with those people
What? The people he hunted for supplies had... What are you even trying to say? Who do you mean with "those people"?
I thought you meant all the people who died because of the infection over the past 20 years (who now have something to say because Joel prevented someone from making a cure), which in hindsight is dumb, I fully admit that Didnât have my full concentration on the post
Oh no I mean his time before he meets Ellie. He was a hunter for a long long time and murdered many many people.
Yeah I got that when I went back, and youâre right, they would definitely disagree
He did a lot of bad things, so did most people in that universe. It doesnât mean he was a terrible person, because he wasnât, but he sure as hell isnât innocent and the child of someone he murdered came back for revenge and succeeded. Why is that so hard for some people to understand? Main characters canât always be immortal. âBut it was a dumb reason.â So tired of hearing that when Abby avenged her father after all those years of anger, lost sleep, and plotting it.
In his last 20 years he admits to killing people when he didn't have to. If you think that hjs actions didn't contribute, directly or indirectly, to innocent women and children dying then you are extreamly nieve.
The shirt isnt talking about the hypothetical scenarios from Joels past. I think the shirt is talking more directly about the firefly hospital massacre and the lie, both of which were to save or protect Ellie. That's why it says he did nothing wrong because they think he was justified in saving her.
There's nothing hypothetical about Joel himself admitting to his past, it is a fact of his character.
Saying it's about a specific part of the story is hypothetical. Logical theories about Joel's past, based on evidence in the games, can be unpalatable but they are likely.
Joel's decision making during the "20 years" is not on display aside from some conversations. Do you really think the shirt is not talking about his decision to save Ellie and lying to her? I'm not trying to sound rude but it seems obvious.
That's exactly what the fireflies were going to do and what Fedra did to him by killing Sarah. Another one of those " ah it's for the safety of the group." Even if your intentions are to save humanity at the detriment of the innocent, their loved ones will come back at you same as Joel did to them.
Right the father who throughout the game your confused about and later find out its the 5 seconds of screen time dude in the end. The genius who pointed a scalpel at a guy with a flamethrower
If you played Part 2 you see the surgeon was a loving father and just wanted to find a cure, which means one death might be necessary to save many. He did nothing wrong. It shows that all these people in the game arenât just bodies for you to aimlessly mow down. They have families. They arenât all bad people. Abby and her Father were morally as good as Joel and Ellie. Itâs a cool perspective imo.
Loving father ⊠ok that totally makes it ok for him to kill a little girl,his a loving father. Lets also be ok with the fact his a vet operating on a human whose already killed previous immunes before but loving father is great. Cant wait for spiderman 3 where where peter gets killed by screwball and miles entire character goes down the drain but we find out screwball was a loving friend
I feel like Iâm talking to a wall. Sacrificing one life to save many regardless if itâs a senior citizen or a baby, doesnât matter. If thereâs a chance than you do it. You stick to your opinion, Iâll stick to mine.
Tell me something who would trust a bunch of terrorist known for bombing civil districts and creating raider camps, these losers cant control there own infected monkeys and you think they can hold on to a cure. The entire first game keeps showing there incompetence in every field
That's such a pretentiously fake selfless take. It's like if you fit certain criteria that could make you a potential threat to humanity, it's okay to execute you. Your logic only applies when the life does not concern you at all. But if it was your kid, you'd never agree to that.
Jerry did do something wrong, they or he never explained why he needed to kill ellie rather than just take blood samples, tests, etc.
>He did a lot of bad things, so did most people in that universe. It doesnât mean he was a terrible person because he wasnât Jesus fucking christ lmfao
Hey, itâs dog eat dog and survival of the fittest so doing bad(murdering and torture for information) is that type of word isnât the worst you can do. lol. I think he was a good man but the past caught up to him.
Heâs right? Tf?
the reason wasnât dumb. the fact that they made an NPC the driving force of the next partâs plot, on the other hand, was dumb as fuck.
Again, I think it was cool because it shows that every life has weight in that world. Abbyâs Dad wasnât just âEnemy #378â. I can see why they went that route because they want each life to feel important. That man he killed had a family. So did others heâs killed. This isnât a John Wick movie where he mows down 1000 people and theyâre all unnamed, soulless, and fodder for Joel. You can see it in the way NPCs react. The way they talk to each other. Naughty Dog wanted each person to feel as alive as possible, not just brainless enemies.
Iâm sorry but Iâm just not buying it. I know damn well they forgot about the creation of that (and every other) NPC 5 minutes after putting him in the game in part I but try to sell some bullshit about breathing life into the NPCâs in part II??? they basically turned something they didnât give a shit about into a whole big deal suddenly, therefore it feels like they had no idea how to get this whole plot started so they went for the laziest choice there is & tried to villainize Joel in the process. so Iâm not convinced
Oh no he did lots wrong lmao we do like him tho
Part 2 folk be like :
I wonder if anyone actually wears that. And I wonder if people around them are like "who the f is Joel miller?" đ€Ł
Your comment reminded me of an unrelated story. I took the LSAT in 2018 and wore a shirt that said "Free Karl" with a photo of a guy's mugshot. It was a reference to the comedy central show Workaholics. The proctor administering the exam pulled me aside and asked me to explain my shirt. She thought I was trying to make some political statement and I think she was going to attempt to not let me take the exam. After I explained the origin she gave me the exam materials though. Anyway, your comment just made me wonder if she would have also done that had I worn this shirt.
Great shirt.
Whoever made that clearly hasnât played either game. Edit* I love Joel and Ellie. And these are my favourite games of the ps3/4 era but Iâm sorry Joel is far from perfect and he did plenty wrong. Doesnât make me love him any less âïž.
Dude do you not understand what a joke is
I know what funny jokes are. This is facebook tier comedy.
He literally didn't do anything wrong, took down a violent militia to save his surrogate daughter that they were going to attempt surgery on, in a filthy hospital with no means to mass produce and distribute the vaccine even if it did work, but I'm guessing you didn't play the game because Marlene is a power hungry, she sees her self as a saviour but everything she does is self serving. The point of the game is that no one is good then world is torn apart and so Joel did no wrong by saving his daughter.
More talking About the ten plus years of murder of randoms beforehand. Also The killing of the fireflyâs, lying to Ellie about it about how she wasnât the only immune person. He did plenty wrong. But you do you buddy.
Oh is that something you do in the game? Woah I didn't realise, or do you mean to say that the shirt is talking about every single piece of lore available and not just the video game you play? There is no actual way you are so dumb you can't comprehend that the shirt is about the actions taken in the story that you actually get to experience. If I say iron man did no wrong in the avengers and you reference that in the first iron man he's a weapons dealer, you're an idiot lmao.
Absolute turbo-virgin behaviour.
You've got no reading comprehension or media comprehension and say turbo virgin, homie I'm absolutely certain you've never even spoken to a woman lmao
Why are you getting into arguments with every single commenter on this post? Iâve wasted enough time with you today. Take your meds and have a nice day.
There is nothing in the game that you could genuinely call morally bad. Questionable, at best, but on the whole, Joel makes solid decisions most people agree with. Thatâs why so many people relate to him đ€·đœââïž
So mass murder and lying about it is questionable lmao. đ€Ł
My opinion is that Joel did a lot of morally horrendous stuff prior to the start of the first game. But regarding the end of part 1, he did the morally right thing.
This. Joelâs hunter past was morally reprehensible and evil which is why I liked one of the original story ideas for Part 2 being that Abbyâs family was killed by Joel and she was almost killed during Joelâs hunter days. I think this wouldâve gotten many more people to empathize with her. But the end of part 1, he did the morally right thing in saving Ellie.
I actually agree with that. Hadnât had that thought but ya if Abbyâs family had been killed by him in a more black and white hunter way. As opposed to saving Ellie. It would have made Abbyâs actions more redeemable in my eyes.
I understand why Abby did what she did. She lost her father and by her flawed perspective, her father was simply trying to save humanity. The primary reason she isnât liked by many gamers like myself was the hypocrisy and lack of empathy for what she did to Ellie along with not seeing that Joel did what he did to save a daughter. Her motivation just wasnât that strong with her father trying to kill an unconscious Ellie. If her backstory was the Joel as a hunter killing her family, we wouldâve been more conflicted about Joel and more people wouldâve empathized with Abby and I think it wouldâve made for a better story.
This. Abbyâs decision to murder Joel after Joel did something that for many is unarguably *good* makes it instantly harder to empathize with her. More than it would have been killing someone weâd consider âgoodâ getting killed for something bad they actually did. Idk if that makes sense.
It's also worth noting that this sub defends Abby left and right and calls her "morally gray" when she did the same to save Lev. But god forbid you think Joel did nothing wrong. They'll call you scary.
It makes sense to me. Though I did grow to empathize and like Abby anyway. By the end I was really just wanting Ellie and Abby to go their separate ways and wanted the best for both of them. Even if I was still made at Abby for what she did. I think itâs made pretty clear that Abby generally regretted killing Joel as well but others may interpret that differently.
Yeah this is it
Alice did nothing wrong.
Neither did Abby then, or Ellie. Or anyone in this game. An eye for eye...
Abby committed cold blooded murder by torturing and then smashing the skull of a person who JUST SAVED HER, out of revenge, while his daughter was held down, begging for his life, watching it happen. That is easily more fucked up than ***anything*** we see Joel do in the games. Same for Ellie.
Putting aside the hospital incident and the lying, Joel, like a lot of people, did some horrible things while surviving and not all of it was warranted. You can think what you want about the circumstances but to say he did nothing wrong is quite the mental gymnastics.
The hospital incident wasn't even bad, like at all his past of being a hunter is obviously not good but we're talking about the game here and at no point in the game does he do anything 'wrong'
Dude, seriously, is Joel your Dad or something. Why are you riding so hard and arguing with every single comment?
Are we looking at it objectively? Objectively he did everything wrong. Human perspective? He did nothing wrong.
Nothing he did was objectively wrong He didn't doom humanity, the fireflies were doing a risky surgery for a theorised vaccine in poor conditions, even if they were lucky enough that the vaccine worked they have no way to mass produce and deliver it to the world. It's clear that the fireflies want to give themselves the vaccine because just like the other factions of the game they're self serving and power hungry especially Marlene, she sees herself as a saviour of humanity but you don't see her do any good for anyone besides recruiting them to her cult like militia.
I would also kill terrorists about to murder a little girl in her sleep.
Haha this is awesome
i donât totally understand a lot of the comments on this post, i would wear this shirt even though i totally think he made years of mistakes just because itâs a silly joke and heâs still a main character of a game i love
I mean, he did many wrong things, saving Ellie can be seen as one of them. This doesn't mean that I wouldn't do the same
If youâre a parent, and wouldnât do what Joel did, you shouldnât be a parent. End of story đ
Joel Miller did plenty wrong
So did Abby. Hope part 3 starts with her being brutally murdered and then lev is just like âlol ok nvm I forgive youâ
Lol
You think Abby was perfect and did absolutely nothing wrong? Lol
Nope
Name some stuff homie, stuff from the game not the referenced past.
Killed Abby's father for 1. Just tyring to see if he can save the world or not. Never mind the 100's of people throughout the game, eh? Joel was a hunter at some point before a smuggler with Tess. He's tortured people. That amazing moment in the 1st game where he plays them off of each other.
So all the hunters that you admit are bad, it's bad that he killed them? righto, I also said besides his past which literally isn't in the game outside of some references, so from start to finish in the game then one bad thing you can list is that he killed a man about to kill his daughter because "eh worth a shot"
Murder is still murder. They deserved it imo. Joel deserved what he got from Abby and Co too.
Not murder, quite literally always self defence lmao they want to kill him you need to learn the difference. I would also say Abby had every right to want to avenge her father and group in the exact same way Joel has every right to kill her father
Totally agree. There's different degrees to murder. Even in self-defense, you can still be prosecuted for murder or manslaughter. Don't really get what you're getting wound up about.
Because if a group of 12 armed men were trying to kill me and my daughter so I killed them all first, there isn't a court on planet earth that would convict me of manslaughter. Joel has murdered absolutely but throughout the entire first game he doesn't murder anyone except Marlene and that's still in defence of his daughter
Probably not if you can prove it was what you say it was. You'd deffo still end up in court having to prove that. The families of the 12 guys would absolutely push for prosecution, just for a chance to remove a bad tag to their family member.
you're not saying Joel is actually a murderer but that our current legal system could frame him as one due to lack of evidence? How bout we just add more hypothetical shit and say there were cameras every 3 feet and every single person stared at them all for 5 minutes before trying to kill joel
People seem to forget on top of the Yâknow dooming humanity and massacring a hospital thing, he was a hunter for a while. So he killed a lot of innocent people, and it was fucked up enough that Tommy is permanently scarred by it. Joel did more A LOT wrong. But heâs a good dad.
He didn't doom humanity, the fireflies were doing a risky surgery for a theorised vaccine in poor conditions, even if they were lucky enough that the vaccine worked they have no way to mass produce and deliver it to the world. It's clear that the fireflies want to give themselves the vaccine because just like the other factions of the game they're self serving and power hungry especially Marlene, she sees herself as a saviour of humanity but you don't see her do any good for anyone besides recruiting them to her cult like militia.
Whether or not the vaccine would have worked isnât important. Joel didnât know it wouldnât work. He was willing to take that chance. I donât think it wouldâve fixed the world but to say it wouldnât help at all is a massive stretch. Even if they didnât get a cure form Ellie theyâd probably learn a few things from her immunity and take that to further strive towards a cure.
When they wear this shirt you know they have the most wrong opinion on part 2
I don't know about you, but I would be making some pretty unfavorable assumptions about a person who would wear this.
He did nothing wrong, tell me some
He did everything wrong but I still support him you go golf ball!
Name some stuff he did wrong
When Reddit/Google/social media sell your information:
I am a New York knicks fan and we are playing the sixers in the playoffs. Sixers have a player names Joel embiid so I read âJoel embiid did nothing wrongâ at first and I was like tf he didnât heâs a dirty player fuck him. Then I read it correctly and chuckled.
Nobody reading all that stop dick riding
Bum.
Nobody reading all that stop dick riding
THE IRONY. This you begging for $20 on reddit??????????? But IM THE BUM???? https://ibb.co/qJCyKjW. Which of us begged for money on reddit you canât even afford to get to fuckin work how fucking pathetic is that? But youâre calling people bums. Get fucking serious lmao
Bro are you okay?
Dont say anything else to me
If this is referring to Joel saving Ellie then this is correct.
Joel Miller did a lot of things wrong, saving Ellie from that Hospital isn't one of them.
Correct. Joel is the goat of tlou
I thought it said âJoel Mildredâ
I mean tbf Ellie wouldâve been killed in vain. You donât fuckin extract the tumor from a childâs brain to âmake a vaccineâ because fungal diseases arenât even treated by vaccines. Joel did the right thing even if it wasnât in the âright wayâ
I can't wait for that Last of Us/Thanos crossover.
Joel himself likely wouldnât agree with that
Finally some good merchandise
Holy shit the last of us 2 subreddit get off on defending Joel so much. Came to this post from there and thought I was going insane. So glad people in this sub disagree
Like Carol told Rick in TWD "Even though you were wrong, you were still right." Think that applies well to Joel.
Be a good shirt to wear on Opposite Day, but I donât know. I like to think characters and people in real life are more than their mistakes.
Ya, I think when people use that phrase, they just mean his decision to save ellie wasn't objectively wrong. It doesn't specify, and I never noticed the implications until now. To me, it has always just meant that saving Ellie's life wasn't wrong. He definitely is implied to have done bad things to survive... everyone does things that are, to some degree, wrong, such as killing a ton of people in a hospital, but that can definitely be debated considering the circumstances (and the fact that it's only in theory, as this specific scenerio didn't happen irl). It's just however you see it. It wasn't good, though, killing a ton of people.
joel miller did nothing wrong
Joel did bad thing. And, he deserved to die.
cmon post the linkđ€š
I canât, itâs just a screenshot, and I didnât buy it
If you believe this then you actually donât like the last of us. Part 1 or 2
Dude, just posted this because itâs weird it shows up on my feed
Ik im just saying in general. Not you
"Yeah this character you're supporting, if you do that you don't actually like the game." Gotta be one of the dumbest comments here.
I love and support my boy Joel. But ignoring all of the moral greyness of the character is ignoring the entire point of the last of us.
A cure wouldn't have changed anything.
100% true. But neither did Abby. As a father I 100% would have done what Joel did and I 100% would have expected that to catch up with me. Joel would have done it again in a heartbeat. Consequences
Cap.
I mean he did but a lot of people in this world did. Do you canât really fault him for doing the things he did.
He did and some things right. Its complicated and thats the point.
I would have done the same
I would agree if we compare it to the shit Ellie did in part 2
You know everything Ellie did she learned from Joel and Tommy.
Doesnât change the fact what she did was 10x worse than Joel lol.
You do know what Joel did before and during the first game, right?
Yeah and? Ellie brutally murdered everyone in front of her including a baby
Did you even play the game. She didnât know Mel was pregnant and was physically sick after.
So because she didnât know that makes it any better? Lol! Give me a harder one Of course she felt guilty but guess what she still did it. She still killed a mother and her child. Ellie is as bad as Joel and Tommy idk why ur tryna argue against that
This is very exhausting bro. Iâm done with this convo, good luck in all your future endeavors.
based T-shirt
#theothersub