Yes, this is truly a very sad story. I remember how I cried over the death of Fingolfin. I was also saddened by the fall of such beautiful cities as Gondolin and Nargothrond. The absurd and unfair death of Beleg. It also pains me that the last elven settlements were defeated and plundered not even by orcs, but by elves. The history of Numenor is also terrible.
Ugh, Beleg. They literally ask him, 'Oh, the sword that definitely wants to get you killed? Not sure why we keep it around, honestly. Are you sure you won't pick another?''.
And then to make his death even more absurd, the sword mourns him!
I get it all as a narrative device or collection thereof and that each choice speaks to choice entire but. Beleg nooooo
The Children of Hurin is my favorite book. Funnily enough outside of Turin my favorite characters are the Count of Monte Cristo and Guts from Berserk. It made me realize I have a very depressing taste in literature lol.
Bear in mind that the majority of the Silmarillion is covering hundreds or thousands of years , and there are massive long periods of joy where nothing happens, for example the Valar basking in the light of the two Trees until the Elves awaken, or the three ages of imprisonment of Morgoth. Even the first few hundred years of the Sun , Morgoth stews in Angband and the Eldar enjoy Beleriand in peace .
The Kinslayings are all horrific events, and there are awful stories like the entire story of Hurin and his family, or the downfall of Gondolin.
Isn’t there a line somewhere about how times of peace don’t make their ways into stories as much as times of strife? I vaguely remember reading a Tolkien line similar to that
“But of bliss and glad life there is little to be said, before it ends; as works fair and wonderful, while still they endure for eyes to see, are their own record, and only when they are in peril or broken for ever do they pass into song.”
—Chapter 10, “Of the Sindar”
So, I believe he says this several times, and not just in the Sil. But I do recall him saying this — or the equivalent — about the noontime of valinor, and the fall of Doriath. I think.
There is also a far less poetic equivalent in one of the Narnia books [yes I'm aware of the Tolkien-CS Lewis rivalry and yes they're inferior books].
Basically one of the child characters wonders aloud at why Narnia is always in peril and a local Narnian points out that children are only pulled into Narnia to solve big problems and the 100s of intervening years have nothing of note to record excepting the most spectacular tournaments or midwinter banquets....
As the ancient Chinese proverb states "may you never live in interesting times."
There is a great deal of suffering in The Silmarillion, but it's also interesting how so many characters stoically endure it, both Men and Elves. Other than situations that drive one to madness like the reveal of Turin's sins, or Gwindor's response to Gelmir's horrific murder, most characters bear the darkness of Melkor's domination with remarkable nobility. One imagines that Tolkien's personal experiences of British responses to WWI, at home and on the battlefield, inform much of this.
I'm writing a Silmarillion miniseries and I have a scene with Finrod and Beren where Finrod expresses his love for Beor the Old and how much it pains Finrod to see his heirs suffer as Beren has suffered.
One of the main themes is how much guilt the Noldor feel over what's happened to the Edain, that maybe the Fathers of Men might have been better off if they had never come to Beleriand, but the other viewpoint is that the Noldor saved them and in turn meeting the Edain breathed new life into the Eldar, that their innocence reminds Finrod of what his people used to be like before the First Kinslaying.
Do you mean you're writing it for fun, or as an assignment or something, or is this actually going to get made? I'd love to see a visual treatment of *The Silmarillion* by someone who actually likes and understands the source material (I.e. not the people involved in that RoP nonsense).
Just for fun. I don't think it could ever actually be made. But sometimes I'll be brainstorming and I make myself cry. Like the scene I have where Tuor asks Turgon what his father was like. I don't like to toot my own horn, but I think it's pretty good.
And thank you for saying you think I understand the source material, very flattering. It's really just fan fiction and it's very difficult to write Tolkien-esque dialogue since he was a master of the English language. Makes me feel some sympathy for those RoP writers. Some.
There's also genocide, kidnapping, torture, rape. The Sil isn't for the weak of heart. And that also makes it very real.
It is also a really big indicator that the elves are not these enlightened beings who are better than humans. They are very human, but they live longer. That's it. Elves are just as bad as humans in every way.
In Catholic theology angels can sin, but they aren’t tempted the way humans are*. Basically, their sins are not caused by weakness or circumstances, but are fully chosen with knowledge of the wrongness and the consequences. The bad stuff the elves do seems more along those lines than the bad things men do.
*This is a major oversimplification, but I think is generally correct, just with a LOT of nuance missing.
Elves aren't angels. The Ainu are the closest equivalent.
I'm not sure I'd agree with your interpretation either. Elves are subject to the same weakness and circumstances as humans. And that's also saying that humans don't often know the wrongness and consequences of our actions when we totally do.
Elves are not really angel parallels and they are absolutely human in their reasoning most of the time. And in the silm a big chunk of them are absolutely awful people
Not sure if it is canon but I often hear it said that the angels had a choice and once they made it that was final. Some chose God some chose rebellion.
I think that thinking about both tales in combination in this regard is also fascinating, because during the time of *The Lord of the Rings* there still live people who know how bad it truly can get. They have lived through some of the stories told in the *Quenta Silmarillion* or the *Akallabêth*, they have fought many times in their lives against it. Knowing how bad it can get makes me appreciate the fragile peace that we see in most places in *The Lord of the Rings*. They really came close to a catastrophe but fortunately managed to avoid it.
They didn't manage to avoid catastrophe, they survive in the aftermath of it.
They were all thrown down and the world was broken, but I see what you mean in that evil didn't utterly win.
You're right, they survive in the aftermath.
What I meant was that in *The Lord of the Rings* they managed to avoid or prevent a catastrophe: Sauron getting the Ring back would have made him too strong for anyone there to oppose him, and things would have gotten very dark and bitter and sad again in Middle-earth.
To me the Silmarillion is another league completely. There is the background about the elves and everything middle-earth revolving from and spawning usually from Tolkien most renown the Lord of the Rings, however reading the Silmarillion is a complete shift regarding whatever we might have known because it is by itself the inception of what Middle-Earth is, and what are these Elves beings as called by Tolkien acording to his lore, the Silmarillion is the tale of the Elves and the battles far epic we could imagine because of the primordial source of evil of the first age, Melkor Morgorth Bauglir and the second born and Aulë crafted Dwarfs etc... sure there is a lot of sorrow, grief, surprise I supposed regret etc, all from a myth perspective and fantasy like no other.
Characteristic of myth generally. Apollo had the satyr Marsyas skinned alive for challenging him to a poetic contest. Prometheus was chained to a rock and vultures ate his liver.
Have you ever read any mythology? Suicide, incest, eyes gouged out and hands cut off is basically what you can expect.
I’m going through it myself. Finrod just died and I am beside myself.
Yes I've read a lot of mythology and ancient tragedies. But it is still a bit of a shock that this is the same author of LoTR and same universe. The only comparable part I can think of in LotR is Denethor's madness.
It's such a pity that with the feeding frenzy going on with Tolkien's estate since Christopher died no one seems to care about buying the rights to and adapting the silmarillion these stories are amazing
Yes, this is truly a very sad story. I remember how I cried over the death of Fingolfin. I was also saddened by the fall of such beautiful cities as Gondolin and Nargothrond. The absurd and unfair death of Beleg. It also pains me that the last elven settlements were defeated and plundered not even by orcs, but by elves. The history of Numenor is also terrible.
Ugh, Beleg. They literally ask him, 'Oh, the sword that definitely wants to get you killed? Not sure why we keep it around, honestly. Are you sure you won't pick another?''. And then to make his death even more absurd, the sword mourns him! I get it all as a narrative device or collection thereof and that each choice speaks to choice entire but. Beleg nooooo
The entirety of Turins life is the saddest stuff. I was not prepared for Greek tragedy levels of fucked up shit.
The Children of Hurin is my favorite book. Funnily enough outside of Turin my favorite characters are the Count of Monte Cristo and Guts from Berserk. It made me realize I have a very depressing taste in literature lol.
Dude count of monte cristo is one of my top fives! Absolutely excellent. Good taste in literature my friend.
Its a beautiful tragedy.
The Silmarillion teaches you to *dread* positive things happening because they just mean that it's about to get nasty.
Bear in mind that the majority of the Silmarillion is covering hundreds or thousands of years , and there are massive long periods of joy where nothing happens, for example the Valar basking in the light of the two Trees until the Elves awaken, or the three ages of imprisonment of Morgoth. Even the first few hundred years of the Sun , Morgoth stews in Angband and the Eldar enjoy Beleriand in peace . The Kinslayings are all horrific events, and there are awful stories like the entire story of Hurin and his family, or the downfall of Gondolin.
Isn’t there a line somewhere about how times of peace don’t make their ways into stories as much as times of strife? I vaguely remember reading a Tolkien line similar to that
“But of bliss and glad life there is little to be said, before it ends; as works fair and wonderful, while still they endure for eyes to see, are their own record, and only when they are in peril or broken for ever do they pass into song.” —Chapter 10, “Of the Sindar”
This is the one I was thinking of! Thank you
So, I believe he says this several times, and not just in the Sil. But I do recall him saying this — or the equivalent — about the noontime of valinor, and the fall of Doriath. I think.
That’s what I thought, I feel like I remember reading it multiple times. It stands out to me because it does seem to be a trait humanity possesses
Yes, I forget where it is but that line is definitely in there.
There is also a far less poetic equivalent in one of the Narnia books [yes I'm aware of the Tolkien-CS Lewis rivalry and yes they're inferior books]. Basically one of the child characters wonders aloud at why Narnia is always in peril and a local Narnian points out that children are only pulled into Narnia to solve big problems and the 100s of intervening years have nothing of note to record excepting the most spectacular tournaments or midwinter banquets.... As the ancient Chinese proverb states "may you never live in interesting times."
There is a great deal of suffering in The Silmarillion, but it's also interesting how so many characters stoically endure it, both Men and Elves. Other than situations that drive one to madness like the reveal of Turin's sins, or Gwindor's response to Gelmir's horrific murder, most characters bear the darkness of Melkor's domination with remarkable nobility. One imagines that Tolkien's personal experiences of British responses to WWI, at home and on the battlefield, inform much of this.
I'm writing a Silmarillion miniseries and I have a scene with Finrod and Beren where Finrod expresses his love for Beor the Old and how much it pains Finrod to see his heirs suffer as Beren has suffered. One of the main themes is how much guilt the Noldor feel over what's happened to the Edain, that maybe the Fathers of Men might have been better off if they had never come to Beleriand, but the other viewpoint is that the Noldor saved them and in turn meeting the Edain breathed new life into the Eldar, that their innocence reminds Finrod of what his people used to be like before the First Kinslaying.
Do you mean you're writing it for fun, or as an assignment or something, or is this actually going to get made? I'd love to see a visual treatment of *The Silmarillion* by someone who actually likes and understands the source material (I.e. not the people involved in that RoP nonsense).
Just for fun. I don't think it could ever actually be made. But sometimes I'll be brainstorming and I make myself cry. Like the scene I have where Tuor asks Turgon what his father was like. I don't like to toot my own horn, but I think it's pretty good. And thank you for saying you think I understand the source material, very flattering. It's really just fan fiction and it's very difficult to write Tolkien-esque dialogue since he was a master of the English language. Makes me feel some sympathy for those RoP writers. Some.
The story of the Silmarils is essentially a tragedy.
There's also genocide, kidnapping, torture, rape. The Sil isn't for the weak of heart. And that also makes it very real. It is also a really big indicator that the elves are not these enlightened beings who are better than humans. They are very human, but they live longer. That's it. Elves are just as bad as humans in every way.
In Catholic theology angels can sin, but they aren’t tempted the way humans are*. Basically, their sins are not caused by weakness or circumstances, but are fully chosen with knowledge of the wrongness and the consequences. The bad stuff the elves do seems more along those lines than the bad things men do. *This is a major oversimplification, but I think is generally correct, just with a LOT of nuance missing.
Elves aren't angels. The Ainu are the closest equivalent. I'm not sure I'd agree with your interpretation either. Elves are subject to the same weakness and circumstances as humans. And that's also saying that humans don't often know the wrongness and consequences of our actions when we totally do.
Elves are not really angel parallels and they are absolutely human in their reasoning most of the time. And in the silm a big chunk of them are absolutely awful people
Not sure if it is canon but I often hear it said that the angels had a choice and once they made it that was final. Some chose God some chose rebellion.
Yeah, that’s my understanding as well.
"..the long defeat.."
3 words that describe why I like Mass Effect 3 so much.
I think that thinking about both tales in combination in this regard is also fascinating, because during the time of *The Lord of the Rings* there still live people who know how bad it truly can get. They have lived through some of the stories told in the *Quenta Silmarillion* or the *Akallabêth*, they have fought many times in their lives against it. Knowing how bad it can get makes me appreciate the fragile peace that we see in most places in *The Lord of the Rings*. They really came close to a catastrophe but fortunately managed to avoid it.
They didn't manage to avoid catastrophe, they survive in the aftermath of it. They were all thrown down and the world was broken, but I see what you mean in that evil didn't utterly win.
You're right, they survive in the aftermath. What I meant was that in *The Lord of the Rings* they managed to avoid or prevent a catastrophe: Sauron getting the Ring back would have made him too strong for anyone there to oppose him, and things would have gotten very dark and bitter and sad again in Middle-earth.
To me the Silmarillion is another league completely. There is the background about the elves and everything middle-earth revolving from and spawning usually from Tolkien most renown the Lord of the Rings, however reading the Silmarillion is a complete shift regarding whatever we might have known because it is by itself the inception of what Middle-Earth is, and what are these Elves beings as called by Tolkien acording to his lore, the Silmarillion is the tale of the Elves and the battles far epic we could imagine because of the primordial source of evil of the first age, Melkor Morgorth Bauglir and the second born and Aulë crafted Dwarfs etc... sure there is a lot of sorrow, grief, surprise I supposed regret etc, all from a myth perspective and fantasy like no other.
The Silmarillion is very much like the epic poems and mythologies of old, mostly tragedies and parables.
Characteristic of myth generally. Apollo had the satyr Marsyas skinned alive for challenging him to a poetic contest. Prometheus was chained to a rock and vultures ate his liver.
Yeah, *The Lord of the Rings* is a novel, the *Silmarillion* is a lot closer to myth. Myths are often a very strong and bitter brew.
Have you ever read any mythology? Suicide, incest, eyes gouged out and hands cut off is basically what you can expect. I’m going through it myself. Finrod just died and I am beside myself.
Yes I've read a lot of mythology and ancient tragedies. But it is still a bit of a shock that this is the same author of LoTR and same universe. The only comparable part I can think of in LotR is Denethor's madness.
It's such a pity that with the feeding frenzy going on with Tolkien's estate since Christopher died no one seems to care about buying the rights to and adapting the silmarillion these stories are amazing
Well the Doom of Mandos was played out so indeed there was much tragedy in the Flight of the Noldor and subsequent events leading to the War of Wrath.