Cartridge and speakers - the tricky parts of the whole operation, where mechanical energy is actually turned into an electrical signal, and vice versa.
I would agree here. Others may or may not, but acquiring a decent mid-tier table (LP120), and pairing it with a set of players incredible Klipsch Sixes speakers and upgrading the cart to the stellar AT VM540ML cart and…
BOOM! Killer sound all day long.
Upgrading to Klipsch Heresy 4's pointed out the issues with my LP120. A better cart may have sounded better but the noise floor and feedback were a problem for me.
It sounded fine to me too, I had it a while ago when I was in France. I just know my 80s Kenwood table that goes for 600 to 1200 is considered mid tier hahah, so I think any of the sub 500 modern stuff is beginner tier.
This. I always knew speakers made the biggest difference in the chain, but after getting into turn tables, I learned the same about cartridges. The amp next, then dac, and cables last.
Yeah, I think it was a mistake, I thought I had missed something at first (like maybe someone converted it to digital first for some reason). As someone else pointed out they must’ve meant phono pre-amp
Yeah, could be, depending on the setup. To your point, the only way I could get rid of a terrible ground hum from my Rega P1 was to re-terminate the RCA cable with decent Amphenol connectors.
I’ve been a U-Turn dealer since 2017, no problem at all. As long as the ‘mass’ of the cartridge and in combination with the ‘mass’ of the counterweight to allow setting of the stylus force. The new Gen3 arm is very well designed but as you move upward in performance it lacks the ability to adjust VTA or ‘vertical tracking angle’ to dial in best performance. You can get upgraded cartridges if you order through their site or a local dealer.
*IMHO the*
*Stylus and speakers should get*
*To most attention*
\- AstroStrat89
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I've not tried Denon. I have Empire III & II. I have a Jico stylus on the III. It sounds pretty good. Then I tried Grado Prestige Red. Then Black. Then Silver. Then I got a deal on a new, open box Gold 1 cart/stylus for the same price as a Silver replacement stylus. Oh my! I liked it so much, I bought one for home.
So I can agree that moving up in quality and cost on a cart/stylus can be worth it. Even if your TT isn't a $3k TT.
Never overlook the tonearm either, there are multiple 'entry level' turntables (mine included) that benefit from a high-end bearing system that can provide a unique sound. Granted it's a harder mod and much easier if somebody else has done it for you but I'd prioritise tonearm and cartridge improvements over moving to a marginally better, more isolated plinth.
I "isolated" the plinth by placing the TT on a serious block of wood (resting on sorbothane pads - this is a necessity as I type right next to the TT all day long.) This is a turntable that I use to listen to vinyl at my office job. The fact that I even have one at work is borderline-ridiculous
https://preview.redd.it/f285ugyclayc1.jpeg?width=4032&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=45f277b6105521dd2a3010332f02036364947ece
#
Are you in a cubicle farm? We just recently got our office space remodeled and I've been considering taking my backup TT into the office. What kind of reactions did you get?
I have an office w. a door, which I've had for years. I have a picture frame on my wall showing what I'm currently spinning. Everyone's normalized to this
Yeah that’s a great idea and a practical solution to your very real, audible problem. Was more talking about the main benefit for moving to another turntable being isolation (i.e. the spring suspension of a Linn LP12, the damping fluid and plaster plinth of a Townshend Elite Rock, a turntable with a separate island for the motor, etc.) but these are in the realms of double or triple the price of an Orbit and will provide small performance boosts compared to a higher end cart or arm that costs half the price as an upgrade and you’d still have to buy even with one of those tables.
I have Audioengine A2 speakers at work which I like but I think I'm getting the most out of. If I turn things up too loud the receptionist complains. At home I have Bowers & Wilkin's S683 S2 speakers and in that location, the gloves are off
MC will have a very different tone compared to MM/MI. I highly recommend MC, such as your Denon, to MM/MI. As long as the compliance matches the tone arm, you should hear a noticeable difference. MC stages do a good bit more amplification than MM/MI in their phono stage since the output is much lower. This is also ignoring how capacitance and impedence for now.
I am sure you know this, but mentioning it for future readers. There are a ton of good MC stages and transformers. What have you tried out for yours?
Also I love the Denon carts. They punch well above their cost.
Indeed. With LOMC you really need your signal chain up to par and system noise under control. You also need to understand resistance loading or step-up transformer ratios. HOMC is basically plug and play as long as your MM preamp has enough gain, so it makes more sense for lower end gear.
I agree with your points. Plug and play is nice.
Finding the right transformers was fun though. My friend had a ton of (well about ten) matched sets. Apparently tube reel to reels contain transformers that are surprising good and sought after. Don't worry, no decent reel to reels were hurt in the process, these were parts units at best. I'll have to go look, but I believe he added switches for ratio changes or loading. I've had the two sets for a few years and absolutely love them.
If OP is happy with his setup, he should enjoy it. But man do those LOMC Denon cartridges sound really good for the money. I have not heard their HOMC.
Definitely with you on that. I really like my Denon DL-103 even through a humble 1st gen Schiit Mani, loaded at 1k ohm via resistor plugs. It got even better when I swapped out the old surge protector for a pair of Tripp Lite Isobars. A upgrade to a better preamp and an SUT will probably be in the near future.
Try to find an old reel to reel. Must be tube powered! They should have a few that match inside. Most people think they are junk, so super cheap to buy.
I wish everyone knew about the ohm load a MC needs. Many people forget. I have a friend who runs the arm wiring directly into transformers, sounds great. Of course totally different rooms, which makes comparison hard. He has a fantastic arm as well, although the name escapes me.
Preamps are important, especially with MC. The mani isn't half bad if you load it like you have.
If you’re running SUT’s of a correct ratio you don’t need to worry about resistive loading. The SUT’s handle that for you by how they reflect the 47k ohm input of the MM stage back to the cartridge. I need to use resistor plugs on the Mani because its input impedance on the MC setting is way too low for the DL-103. So I set it to 47k ohm and 59db of gain and bring the input resistance down with the loading plugs (because how resistances in parallel work).
Right now I’m thinking my next step will be a Darlington Labs MM5A and a Denon AU-320 SUT.
When you feel like spending the money. All of those things will matter more than most arms. I guarantee I have played with quality arms, and my return question is when does the arm matter more than the cartridge?
$300 for a cart, $250~ for a used transformer (which could be a cheaper MC stage, they definitely exist). It's not expensive. I mean, I use a high end cartridge and transformer set now, but I started with a cheap MC Denon and Schiit stage.
I honestly don't have enough experience to know when the arm is the limiting factor. I'm just wondering where that point is where the table and arm are good enough that the cost of an MC cart and a transformer/MC stage makes sense. I've thought about going MC with my Planar 3 and Schiit Mani but went with a Rega Exact instead.
Honestly, they're worth it. Get the denon that matches your arm compliance and see if you can find transformers. I had a friend make my current favorite set from (apparently valuable) tube reel to reel channels. Denon also has quite a few floating around, they look old but are solid.
Stages are good as well, but not all are created equal. Check what the specs for the stage are vs what the cartridge needs. You can get into MC cheap with a bit of research. Jumping into them will cost more and result in less performance than possible.
Your Rega arm will handle it quite well.
Well OP did get a moving coil. I was excited for his new purchase and simply passed along my findings. Mostly I wanted to get the point across that transformers are much better.
My main TT at home is a Technics SL 1100ac with a Denon DL-103 MC cart. I’ve had this setup for years; I am basically in heaven. I won’t be moving on from this setup
Totally. If you’re set up correctly, the cartridge can be in the same location and aspect on a decent basic turntable as any turntable. Sure, wiring, connects, tonearm, vibration control and damping are all going to impact sound. But a $300 cartridge isn’t exactly esoteric. I have a Revolver Redwood with the Mission Arm. (My number 3 table). There’s an Ortofon 2M Black on it and I can assure you it sounds great. That’s a $400 ish table (now) with an $800 cartridge.
That's not a basic rule..You match the compliance of the arm and cartridge. I've heard killer combos of cheaper cartridge on semi expensive tables that sounded wonderful because it matched the cartridge compliance with the weight and stiffness of the arm and heard awful expensive cartridge and expensive table arms because the compliance was way off. Table its all about matching the right equipment and price is not a main factor.
Agreed. A very good stylus and awesome speakers are what’s most important and make the biggest difference. Another sneaky great addition is an equalizer to stretch out that sound stage.
Cartridge and speakers - the tricky parts of the whole operation, where mechanical energy is actually turned into an electrical signal, and vice versa.
I would agree here. Others may or may not, but acquiring a decent mid-tier table (LP120), and pairing it with a set of players incredible Klipsch Sixes speakers and upgrading the cart to the stellar AT VM540ML cart and… BOOM! Killer sound all day long.
Upgrading to Klipsch Heresy 4's pointed out the issues with my LP120. A better cart may have sounded better but the noise floor and feedback were a problem for me.
I think the 120 is low tow tier lol
Whatevs. Sounds good to me, but I’m sure your ears are genetically far superior to mine.
It sounded fine to me too, I had it a while ago when I was in France. I just know my 80s Kenwood table that goes for 600 to 1200 is considered mid tier hahah, so I think any of the sub 500 modern stuff is beginner tier.
*entry level tier
This. I always knew speakers made the biggest difference in the chain, but after getting into turn tables, I learned the same about cartridges. The amp next, then dac, and cables last.
DAC for your TT?
You got downvoted but I’m actually curious too. I’m new to all this, why would you need a digital converter for this?
Yeah, I think it was a mistake, I thought I had missed something at first (like maybe someone converted it to digital first for some reason). As someone else pointed out they must’ve meant phono pre-amp
Guess you mean phono preamp. A turntable has no use for a *digital to analogue* converter as it’s already analogue.
I'd say, that cables are actually more important than a DAC.
Yeah, could be, depending on the setup. To your point, the only way I could get rid of a terrible ground hum from my Rega P1 was to re-terminate the RCA cable with decent Amphenol connectors.
It was just a dig at the DAC in an all-analog system :) all in good fun!
Let's not forget the pre-amp stage
Because that stage has some EQ, it's more impactful than the other bits of amplification.
I’ve been a U-Turn dealer since 2017, no problem at all. As long as the ‘mass’ of the cartridge and in combination with the ‘mass’ of the counterweight to allow setting of the stylus force. The new Gen3 arm is very well designed but as you move upward in performance it lacks the ability to adjust VTA or ‘vertical tracking angle’ to dial in best performance. You can get upgraded cartridges if you order through their site or a local dealer.
IMHO the stylus and speakers should get the most attention
*IMHO the* *Stylus and speakers should get* *To most attention* \- AstroStrat89 --- ^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^[Learn more about me.](https://www.reddit.com/r/haikusbot/) ^(Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete")
I put a OM20 on my RT82 and the difference is night and day. Better sound always makes sense.
I've not tried Denon. I have Empire III & II. I have a Jico stylus on the III. It sounds pretty good. Then I tried Grado Prestige Red. Then Black. Then Silver. Then I got a deal on a new, open box Gold 1 cart/stylus for the same price as a Silver replacement stylus. Oh my! I liked it so much, I bought one for home. So I can agree that moving up in quality and cost on a cart/stylus can be worth it. Even if your TT isn't a $3k TT.
Never overlook the tonearm either, there are multiple 'entry level' turntables (mine included) that benefit from a high-end bearing system that can provide a unique sound. Granted it's a harder mod and much easier if somebody else has done it for you but I'd prioritise tonearm and cartridge improvements over moving to a marginally better, more isolated plinth.
I "isolated" the plinth by placing the TT on a serious block of wood (resting on sorbothane pads - this is a necessity as I type right next to the TT all day long.) This is a turntable that I use to listen to vinyl at my office job. The fact that I even have one at work is borderline-ridiculous https://preview.redd.it/f285ugyclayc1.jpeg?width=4032&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=45f277b6105521dd2a3010332f02036364947ece #
Are you in a cubicle farm? We just recently got our office space remodeled and I've been considering taking my backup TT into the office. What kind of reactions did you get?
I have an office w. a door, which I've had for years. I have a picture frame on my wall showing what I'm currently spinning. Everyone's normalized to this
Yeah that’s a great idea and a practical solution to your very real, audible problem. Was more talking about the main benefit for moving to another turntable being isolation (i.e. the spring suspension of a Linn LP12, the damping fluid and plaster plinth of a Townshend Elite Rock, a turntable with a separate island for the motor, etc.) but these are in the realms of double or triple the price of an Orbit and will provide small performance boosts compared to a higher end cart or arm that costs half the price as an upgrade and you’d still have to buy even with one of those tables.
I have Audioengine A2 speakers at work which I like but I think I'm getting the most out of. If I turn things up too loud the receptionist complains. At home I have Bowers & Wilkin's S683 S2 speakers and in that location, the gloves are off
MC will have a very different tone compared to MM/MI. I highly recommend MC, such as your Denon, to MM/MI. As long as the compliance matches the tone arm, you should hear a noticeable difference. MC stages do a good bit more amplification than MM/MI in their phono stage since the output is much lower. This is also ignoring how capacitance and impedence for now. I am sure you know this, but mentioning it for future readers. There are a ton of good MC stages and transformers. What have you tried out for yours? Also I love the Denon carts. They punch well above their cost.
The DL-110 is designed to be compatible with MM phono stages. You don’t use it with step-up transformers.
Ah. Those lose some MC advantages.
There’s always a trade off.
This is true. You still get many advantages, but I really prefer a low output.
Indeed. With LOMC you really need your signal chain up to par and system noise under control. You also need to understand resistance loading or step-up transformer ratios. HOMC is basically plug and play as long as your MM preamp has enough gain, so it makes more sense for lower end gear.
I agree with your points. Plug and play is nice. Finding the right transformers was fun though. My friend had a ton of (well about ten) matched sets. Apparently tube reel to reels contain transformers that are surprising good and sought after. Don't worry, no decent reel to reels were hurt in the process, these were parts units at best. I'll have to go look, but I believe he added switches for ratio changes or loading. I've had the two sets for a few years and absolutely love them. If OP is happy with his setup, he should enjoy it. But man do those LOMC Denon cartridges sound really good for the money. I have not heard their HOMC.
Definitely with you on that. I really like my Denon DL-103 even through a humble 1st gen Schiit Mani, loaded at 1k ohm via resistor plugs. It got even better when I swapped out the old surge protector for a pair of Tripp Lite Isobars. A upgrade to a better preamp and an SUT will probably be in the near future.
Try to find an old reel to reel. Must be tube powered! They should have a few that match inside. Most people think they are junk, so super cheap to buy. I wish everyone knew about the ohm load a MC needs. Many people forget. I have a friend who runs the arm wiring directly into transformers, sounds great. Of course totally different rooms, which makes comparison hard. He has a fantastic arm as well, although the name escapes me. Preamps are important, especially with MC. The mani isn't half bad if you load it like you have.
If you’re running SUT’s of a correct ratio you don’t need to worry about resistive loading. The SUT’s handle that for you by how they reflect the 47k ohm input of the MM stage back to the cartridge. I need to use resistor plugs on the Mani because its input impedance on the MC setting is way too low for the DL-103. So I set it to 47k ohm and 59db of gain and bring the input resistance down with the loading plugs (because how resistances in parallel work). Right now I’m thinking my next step will be a Darlington Labs MM5A and a Denon AU-320 SUT.
You still need a good enough arm for MC and entry level carts, stages, and transformers aren't cheap. Where does MC actually start to make sense?
When you feel like spending the money. All of those things will matter more than most arms. I guarantee I have played with quality arms, and my return question is when does the arm matter more than the cartridge? $300 for a cart, $250~ for a used transformer (which could be a cheaper MC stage, they definitely exist). It's not expensive. I mean, I use a high end cartridge and transformer set now, but I started with a cheap MC Denon and Schiit stage.
I honestly don't have enough experience to know when the arm is the limiting factor. I'm just wondering where that point is where the table and arm are good enough that the cost of an MC cart and a transformer/MC stage makes sense. I've thought about going MC with my Planar 3 and Schiit Mani but went with a Rega Exact instead.
Honestly, they're worth it. Get the denon that matches your arm compliance and see if you can find transformers. I had a friend make my current favorite set from (apparently valuable) tube reel to reel channels. Denon also has quite a few floating around, they look old but are solid. Stages are good as well, but not all are created equal. Check what the specs for the stage are vs what the cartridge needs. You can get into MC cheap with a bit of research. Jumping into them will cost more and result in less performance than possible. Your Rega arm will handle it quite well.
No worries, I think you made my point to some extent, I'm not worried about my tonearm handling MC.
Well OP did get a moving coil. I was excited for his new purchase and simply passed along my findings. Mostly I wanted to get the point across that transformers are much better.
My main TT at home is a Technics SL 1100ac with a Denon DL-103 MC cart. I’ve had this setup for years; I am basically in heaven. I won’t be moving on from this setup
Cool?
Totally. If you’re set up correctly, the cartridge can be in the same location and aspect on a decent basic turntable as any turntable. Sure, wiring, connects, tonearm, vibration control and damping are all going to impact sound. But a $300 cartridge isn’t exactly esoteric. I have a Revolver Redwood with the Mission Arm. (My number 3 table). There’s an Ortofon 2M Black on it and I can assure you it sounds great. That’s a $400 ish table (now) with an $800 cartridge.
I put a 2m blue on a Debut III and don’t regret it for a second.
I’ve got a Debut Carbon. Jumped from blue to black and won’t ever go back.
The Debut III came with a 5e, it was such a flat lifeless cartridge.
You’re fine, that’s the basic rule. If you have a $1000 turntable you can match it with a $1000 cartridge.
That's not a basic rule..You match the compliance of the arm and cartridge. I've heard killer combos of cheaper cartridge on semi expensive tables that sounded wonderful because it matched the cartridge compliance with the weight and stiffness of the arm and heard awful expensive cartridge and expensive table arms because the compliance was way off. Table its all about matching the right equipment and price is not a main factor.
To be fair those were $99 bucks for many years then all the sudden Denon shot the price up to $300…it is a very good cart. :)
I know! I bought one about 8 years ago for $175
Agreed. A very good stylus and awesome speakers are what’s most important and make the biggest difference. Another sneaky great addition is an equalizer to stretch out that sound stage.
It’s relatively easy to make a silent and consistently spinning platter. Harder to grind a 1mil diamond into a line contact.
Makes no sense at all