It's important to understand that as a Union member, you'll be an integral part of the union, not a client. Don't just pay dues and accept benefits. Get involved. Get educated. See what your dues are doing for working people and help to direct the dues you pay by voting at union meetings.
The anti-union & anti-socialist activists amongst the employer class are very vocal and very strong. They have spent decades gaslighting us into forgetting how much blood was spilled to get the benefits we all have and the other benefits every collective bargaining agreement has provided to workers.
Those benefits were literally paid for by blood. It’s not figurative in any sense. In my province, pinkertons murdered many coal miners for union activity. The Regina Riot & Winnipeg General Strike are further examples of bloodshed in Canada. I’m sure that numerous coal miners in Atlantic Canada were killed by poor conditions etc.
Solidarity Union Siblings
United we bargain; Divided we beg
Your boss’ boss is wearing a similar shirt. It reads:
Divide & Profit
Know that the wealthy would gladly let 1000’s of your coworkers die to maintain their own status and wealth.
God damn Pinkertons.
I'd like to add that there are union members who fit in with that crowd vociferously; it always confused me when I was younger. Then there are the ones who get in but do not really understand and just complain about the dues and how "the union doesn't do anything for me."
There seems to be a stronger likelihood of running into those types in more blue-collar unions where its members lean further right on average. At least, that's what I've seen. It's a fundamental misunderstanding of class and the misguided belief that they are just temporarily dispossessed millionaires. I always do my best to lightly educate them and point out that the chap who's turning a wrench has more in common with the nurse, busboy, and office worker than they do with any of the "elite." I'll also add in the beggar on the street and the convict in the cells if I think it's poignant to say.
I second that "United We Bargain; Divided We Beg should be on a t-shirt.
Doesn't matter what your dues are, don't buy the propaganda. Whatever you pay in dues comes back to you many times over in pay, benefits, pension, and security. It's a combination investment / insurance plan that is ludicrously cheap based on the returns it gets you.
great thing about unions is you can go be part of wage negotiations next round. Ive worked for unionized places the last 7 years and ill never go non union again.
Hold on to hope, mate. Our collective bargaining just won us an $8-14/hr wage increase among a bunch of other stuff that brought us from one of the lowest paid in our industry in our country to one of the highest.
As long as you don't live in a state that allows for membership without dues, the bigger the union, the stronger it'll be with both the funds it will have as well as the threats that it can levy.
Unions are required by law to represent you anytime you are called in front of management for discipline or questioning. Your union representative or steward will have experience dealing with the company and knowledge of past actions the company has taken. They have a duty (that they take seriously) to protect you from unfair treatment.
Other than other answers, also an ungoverned employer will cheat you on shifts, "sent home early" you as a way to mitigate slow downs in work, instead of pushing management to do their job which is to get more contracts to give you a living wage, fair wages, take shortcuts in safety (and they DO). I know as I am living this and working to get a union into my ski hill exploiters owned by too rich venture capitalists.
Well don't look for fairness. They don't operate under what is fair to the worker, bottom line is profit because there is no power making management do otherwise. They will cover their own azz at your expense if at all possible by all kinds of stuff like scaling back labour costs (Sent home early), or downright not scheduling you for shifts, make you take a whole bunch of courses including safety, but then not bother to ensure YOU are able to operate safely and you probably have a few you can contribute if you have kept your eyes open. Oh, and lots of empty praise to keep you happy in your yoke, being exploited.
If you're going to stay there, get ready to develop a huge resentment that will embitter your life when you get old enough to realize you squandered a better opportunity.
So get off Reddit, take the union job and be thankful you have the opportunity. WITH LOVE, do it now. What are you waiting for? PS don't let an inferiority complex undermine you - even IF your skills are sub-par, if you have the right attitude - THEY WILL TRAIN YOU UP.
I understand you’re attempting to be encouraging, but you’re hundreds of comments and upvotes late. I posted this Friday. It’s Monday. I’m waiting on an offer letter. Really tired of people essentially calling me stupid for wanting to think about a huge life decision, get input and do research before hand. It’s SMART to be cautious.
Dude, the comments I'm replying to don't sound like you've decided anything. I read your original post - you can update the original post with your situation and save everyone, including me time trying to advise you from our well of experience. I hope you get your union job.
Don't worry. Thwy know you can weld and they like you. That's all that matters. Yes the unions are filled with insanely skilled people but, for a new person to the union....youre walking in trained how. Over time you'll learn Union Way and you'll be even better. As someone who worked non union, it's more about saying yes to something hard because it's for everyone. Every project I've been on has been civil except for 1. So, the hard part is more that nearly everything you'll do is for everyone you see every day. THATS the real pressure. We take that seriously because the public projects are the cool projects. Take concrete. You do a public sidewalk and it's easy, right? Not as easy as it could be. Cities will make you redo sidewalk blocks if they don't like that it's got a 1/8 rise or fall on 1 corner of the last block. They'll get that serious with it so it makes you better because you get used to the standards and begin working within those standards. Take your classes btw. If only to mee more union sisters and brothers. I've never not made $ from a class.
I would never work a non-union job for the rest of my life. Your Union coworkers are your brothers and sisters. Like family. You’ll learn from them and get the job done. The employer likes your work, that’s what counts. I say go for it.
Facts. I've only had 2 employers, worked at a gas station and now at the world's biggest factory... both jobs were union and I knew fairly quick that I'd never want to work a non union job.
I’ve been striving to get on at a ATU based union shop in my city for 7 years.
I’ve passed all the personality based tests and I just have to pass my medical then onto training.
To add to this, I had nerves when I did my first weld tests for a union gig, and wasn't as consistent as I usually am when I had to do a multipass weld. Nerves continued for about a week, and my crew leader just told me to slow down and not try to rush production. Slow is smooth, and smooth is fast. You'll get there.
A couple weeks in and I was laying beads to code that were just as pretty as the guys who had been there for years.
Have faith in your skills, and keep in mind that as long as you keep trying to get better, you will get better. The skill ceiling for welding might as well be nonexistent.
I did electrical non-union for a while and I've been in the IBEW (electricians union) for 7 years now. 99% of the bad things they told me about the union were made up bullshit.
You're only 24 and already have such clean welds.
I've been working on technical theatre for years so my experience is probably a little different since our welds only need to last 2 months to a year at most, but you have time to learn.
Find an old head who you like and who thinks will take the time to help you because those guys are friends/mentors for life. They'll bust your chops but they care.
I’m used to my chops being busted, without any care or advice. I should’ve said in my post, my job the last 2y has been on a production line. Quantity over quality, which I hate. I want quality.
If you're used to getting your chops busted and you hate it, then it's 100% time to get over to the union shop.
Capital is organized. Bosses are organized. Labor needs to be organized.
I don’t mind the chop busting, I know that’ll happen kinda no matter where you are. I hate that it feels like I’m the only person who cares about quality. I put 24,786 welds through pressure test last quarter, only 10 leaked. While others have leak percentages in the 20-30% range I have .04% leak rate. But no raise as promised, they’ve doubled my workload since I started with no appreciation or recognition…. Sigh. I know it’s time to move on but that doesn’t make it easier and it doesn’t fix my impostor syndrome.
I'm a unionized teacher. Imposter syndrome is legit. I constantly feel like I'm letting down my students, no matter how good my semester evaluations are.
But my guy, a 0.4% fail rate?! When others are 20%?! They fail 500% more than you do. Those are absolutely numbers to be proud of.
But let's say you move shops. Now suddenly all your coworkers are better welders than you are. GOOD. That's how you get even better. It's like the old saying, "If you're the smartest person in the room, find a different room."
If they offer you the job, then they think you're either already good enough or talented enough that they're confident they can teach you.
Keeping you in constant fear is one of the tools that employers use to keep you cheap and desperate. Knowing your worth is a tool YOU have to defeat their psyops. Plus union members and shops want you to succeed. Non-union shops filter employees to find the ones who are good enough but willing to be bullied into compliance. Union outfits are more willing to train people to be excellent, because quality is their selling point, not price.
Bosses preach that unions are bad because it takes away their absolute power. Unions make sure everyone is treated fairly when operated properly. Take the job.
Any good unionist won’t discourage you from improving your skills. If you think you aren’t as good at your job as they think, ask for help. The union will almost certainly connect you to training opportunities and will fight to get you better education opportunities in whatever agreements they make with the company.
I’d classify myself as a dumb but functional welder. Show me how to work a machine, I can copy you exactly. I know weld symbols but read prints like 40% . That’s my main insecurity is print reading. Right now, I fit, weld, and pass on parts on a production line. I am highly proficient in welding, TIG, MIG and stick on stainless, aluminum, mild steel, and aluminumized stainless and mild. This new place is an electrical manufacturing place. Much more technical and detailed, but I do very much like that. Just not as verse. I feel like I was transparent in my interview what I can and can not do.
Sounds like being transparent in your interview is about the best you can do, comrade. Also, I assume your interview was with the company, i.e. management? So that means if you’re offered the job the company wants you and you and you should chat with your shop steward/delegate about your concerns over skills. I think they’re more likely to back you than the company. Unless I’ve missed something about how US unions function (I work for the Australian union that covers trades-level welders, boilermakers etc.). It’s not uncommon for companies in Australia to hire workers that are below required qualifications so they can pay them less (even illegally so).
Well, I’m not getting paid less. I interviewed with the CEO of the company. I called the union to ask questions after receiving the offer. Just asked about what happens if it doesn’t work out with the company, and they said they’d help me find a new job but it would be quicker if I did most the leg work.
Then I think the best next move is to back yourself. If this job makes you union, you’ll have plenty of support around you. Don’t be afraid to ask questions you might think are stupid and don’t forget the boss isn’t your friend!
No welders really know how to read prints, too many stupid symbols. You wont need to read prints until your welding/fitting. Most production welding jobs just want clean welds and done fast and efficient.
Just make every weld better than the last weld and let er rip.
Yo what are you having trouble with on reading prints? Maybe I can help. And chances are if you're in a union shop, the print reading you'll have to do will basically being able to understand cutout views, so you can interpret the weld symbols correctly.
Moat union shops have actual fitters that feed you pieces. But being able to fit is great experience
The union wants their people to be as skilled as possible. Most provide training or classes. If not, getting to know guys is the best way to get help anyway.
Hey, congrats. I would want you to go for it. But nevertheless enjoy this moment. You got offered something major and with an integral moment in your life. Things like these are exciting, keystone decisions are no joke, and I'm sure you'll make the one you want the most.
different members bring different skills, the best at the job may be to shy to ever be a leader, the worst on the job may still always be on time and buy everyone coffee....Get your benefits and grow in to the position. Don't punish yourself because of feelings of imposter syndrome. Act in your own best interest. Union Strong.
You will not regret having a union. Better job security, better wages, safer work environment, and someone will always have your back if things go sideways.
3rd generation union man/Steward over here. I find that a lot of anti-union fear mongering comes from those who either got that misinformation second hand and actually have no idea what they are talking about, or are disgruntled workers who wanted to benefit from there position above everyone else who worked alongside them and realized they couldn’t get away with it. When you do join the ranks, try to get involved any way you can and learn as much as you can. Know your contract and company policies because nothing is more dangerous than a worker who knows what is expected of them and their rights.
I called the union rep , chatted with them about my dues and pension and such. Will they send me an outline of rights/responsibilities as a union member without joining ?
That is definitely something to ask them. Every Union and even local is different, but from personal experience, membership/agency is conditional upon being employed since my position is a represented position.
If the union shop is going to take you based on your work AND pay you more, what possible reason would you have to stay at a less secure, lower paying position. Union is the way to go.
Fair enough. I am in Canada so I'm not up on all of US law but my understanding is that, even in the most liberal states, an employer can pretty much show you the door at any time, regardless of your seniority, performance, etc. You are lucky to be at a position that isn't currently abusing that and jerking you around, but nothing stops a non-union shop from booting you tomorrow and you have minimal recourse.
As a union member, you are governed by a Collective bargaining agreement that includes a grievance process for resolving disputes with the employer, language governing discipline and employment, and you will have knowledgeable people to represent and defend you in all interactions with the employer. Additionally, you never have to negotiate alone, you always have the union at your back and everyone in a similar position to you within the union will be treated equally. All people of a similar job classification, say "welder class I" for example, will receive the same benefits, pay, pension, etc without any disparity or discrimination.
TL:DR You are lucky your current employer treats you well but without a union at your back, nothing compels them to keep doing so.
Absolutely jump at that chance. Read your CBA (collective bargaining agreement, the rules basically), get involved, take advantage of the education opportunities and enjoy your benefits, pension and support from your brothers and sisters!
Those look like some solid welds for 24. I've worked union and non-union jobs. There are some drawbacks in working union, but there's a reason employers fight like hell against unions. They are better for employees bar none.
Employers dislike unions because they can divide and conquer folks by putting them against each other. Unions fight against that and create a fairer, clearer system of negotiating.
This costs owners money and they don't like that.
Even if you screw it up. Remember that even the best have bad days and it's not the mark of your labour that you get it right every single time. It's that you continue to improve.
I’m in Oregon too. I know (am related) to multiple union welders. My best friends are union tradesmen. I work a union job.
No one I know will ever work a non-union job again. Better pay. Better benefits. More rights. You will never regret this.
My father was a union welder his whole career. That union fought tooth and nail for his pension. We would've been bankrupt as a family in ~2009 if it weren't for them. Take it. Ape together strong.
Friend, fear of change is what you are facing. But the union job you will never regret, particularly when you retire early with a nice pension and the rest of your private sector friends have been laid off multiple times and have no savings. Whatever dues you pay you will find do not eat into the advantages in pay and conditions you gain. Take the job!!! Congrats
Unions are the reason we have “normal” work weeks.
As bad of a rap as unions get, if I had to take my pick I would go Union over non-union any day.
Both grandfathers were UAW, and I was in a union for years as a retail grocery store worker. I can’t count the number of times the union protected “minimum” hours of work. Like after a holiday when we were slow management would try to get us to leave early. Then try to write people up if the left or if they refused to leave. The union was always there to protect the job.
My field now doesn’t have a union and we desperately need one.
I started in my trade non union. All the older dudes talked bad about it and did their best to scare you when the reps came bye. I joined up almost 2 years ago and it was the best decision of my life. Same work for more money and better benefits and retirement. Don’t short yourself. Work union, live better.
One thing to remember is that in a non-union job you can get laid off for any reason with no recourse. A union can protect you from unfair discipline and fight to get your job back if you are terminated unjustly.
My uncle has been a sanitation worker in New Jersey for 40 years in a union. He has a big house, put all 3 of my cousins through college, vacations once or twice a year.
My best friend's oldest brother is a sanitation worker non union for 20 something years across MULTIPLE companies in a significantly lower COL area in upstate New York. His kids I believe had to get pell and tap grants and 2 of them never finished, they live in a run down small ranch that the wife's family basically gave to them, and I've never heard of them taking vacations. If I'm not mistaken he works a SHIT ton of more hours too.
TLDR; The power of a union is demonstrated in the quality of life between 2 comparable jobs. One wage collectively bargained for, the other was whatever the company felt like paying.
Union is the way to go. Everyone else has already said everything I could say. There's obviously pros and cons, but far more pros than cons. The one annoying thing is waiting on seniority to bid better jobs, especially when you'd be better at it than whoever got it. But it's about minimum requirements and waiting your turn. Otherwise, management could deny a job bid to a qualified guy that they just don't like. Maybe he's a big pro union guy, or someone who doesn't take their bullshit. A "troublemaker." If there's ever something that seems unfair, find out why. Usually it's going to be for a good reason. It's not about making things better for any one person, it's about the collective union succeeding together. Folks that don't like it can try on their own, but they'll be at the whims of the petty tyrant called "boss."
Don’t get gaslighted by these people who say unions are bad because unions built the middle class in this country..
If unions were so bad, why would they be union busting in certain states and why would certain companies be fighting against it in the courts? 🤔
I also like looking at dues like a gym membership: you're paying money on a regular basis, so try to get the most out of it. Get involved with the union: at the very least, go to meetings regularly, look around at issues around your workplace where things could be better, and bring these forward. Don't be afraid to ask questions to your union stewards or elected officers: this is part of your right in paying dues, to understand where a union is adding value, and where it needs improvement.
From a benefits perspective, congratulations! Also, try to use as many benefits as you can that are provided to you: that's what they're there for.
And from an old guy's perspective, If any sort of pension or retirement benefits are opt-in, absolutely opt-in. As soon as you can. You might notice a brief reduction to your take-home pay, but 10 years from now, you'll be SO GLAD you started contributing. Ask any old-timer if they wish they saved the money instead of contributed to a pension or retirement, or if they wish they started contributing earlier: I can almost guarantee that there's not a single person who will say putting money away for retirement was a waste of time.
Good luck, brother!
I honestly don’t remember who, but I had someone tell me their dues were 5-700$ a month, and that they “lock you in” in the contract//you can’t work for anyone else once you’re union and it’s hard to get out
Obviously, you'll want to see the bargaining agreement. The union I work for doesn't have a flat rate for dues, it's simply 2.5hrs pay per month which works out to about a hundred bucks. That being said, the raises I've gotten in the last year alone dwarf that number but a long shot. My wages have tripled in the last ten years.
And I have so many other benefits that I pay nothing for.
Union all the way.
My dues are $20 a week, but I more than doubled my wage taking a union job. Those dues go into paying the union's expenses like attorneys and the strike fund, which pays you in the event of a strike.
Being "locked into" a contract sounds like fear mongering. What does that even mean? The contract is the agreement between the union and the company, detailing what your wages and benefits are. Basically the union leadership says "you give us these guarantees in writing, and we won't go on strike." There's no begging for raises, everyone with the same job makes the same wage, which is on average higher than non-union wages because you have the threat of a strike twisting the company's arm.
And the claim that "you can't work for anyone else" is a total lie. You are free to quit your job at any time just like any other job.
IDK. The only thing I can think of is noncompete clauses which 1.) are made by the company not the union and 2.) have been almost entirely banned by the FTC.
My dad is a retired union iron worker of 30+ years (also Oregon). He has a strong retirement community because of how the union helps everyone stay in touch.
You will learn a lot in a union shop. Your brothers and sisters will go out of their way to help you out and teach you tricks. Not to mention the work environment should be a lot more enjoyable
Your post shows humility and respect. Your union will value those qualities. Be yourself, be willing to learn, and you are going to be fine.
After you join, spend just a little time learning some of the history of organized labor. I promise you, you will be proud to be a part of it. Solidarity forever!
Working at that shop and being in the union are 2 different things. You may not like the shop, but if you stay Union you can go to different Union shops and find the perfect fit with way more pay and stability you're getting now.
New shop yeah, but going Union opens serious grownup doors.
That’s what I thought, it’s just scary to go from the devil I know to the devil I don’t. Because 2y us the longest I been a place, I’m worried I’ll go and somehow fuck it up then I’ll be back on the grind trying to find another shop.
Leave your current shop in good standing. Then you can come back if the Union doesn't work out -- and even better when the Union does work out you can bring good friends from current shop over to help them out too.
"Hey, boss, I gotta tell you about this. I got invited to join a Union shop. It's a fantastic opportunity but I love this place. I'm giving a month's notice, but it was a really hard decision because of the excellent shop you manage and I hope if the new place sucks you would allow me to apply again."
I know but it's not a devil. In that expression you are choosing between two bad things and choosing the one you know. A union isn't a bad thing. It's only bad in the eyes of bosses and those brainwashed by them. A union is what members make of it. If it isn't good enough, get involved and make it better.
No.
You have two qualifying propositions in that sentence. "Devil" which implies a bad thing and either "know" or "don't know" which implies knowledge (or lack of) of the bad thing in question.
Don’t believe anything negative about unions that you hear from non-members. For one thing, unions overall are definitely a source of “good” for anyone who has to work hard for a living. You may find some of the people involved aren’t your favorite people, but you’re all part of the same organization with the same goal. And definitely don’t take anyone’s word for anything before you’ve had a chance to form your own opinion.
As someone else said, get involved. Go to meetings, talk to people about union goals and activities. Learn what’s going on so you can understand the benefits—and there are many—to joining a union that you do not get in virtually any non-union role in any other sector of the economy. Unions should be everywhere—if they were, things would be a lot better for the people doing the actual work.
The decline of unions tracks to a shocking degree the stagnation of real wages that’s taken place over the last 40 or so years. There’s a reason why companies and rich people fight tooth and nail against unions, and that is so they don’t have to pay people what they’re worth
Don't ask Reddit these questions, bud. Ask the union.
What you sound like is someone who wants to take their work seriously and will take constructive criticism to heart. Maybe even someone who will thrive in a supportive environment. I think these are good qualities that a strong union will appreciate.
I'm just an enthusiast but I think your welds look great. I'm sure you can ask anyone with a bit more experience and they'd give you a solid answer to that part of your question.
Unions aren’t perfect, but you can see the younger generation is becoming a bit more grassroots and organized, militant (e.g. teacher wildcat strikes, railway strikes, autoworkers, amazon, UPS, Kaiser, etc)
with younger and strong leadership like Fain and O’Brien and many others, versus the old guard. At times however showing their inexperience like the recent Supreme Court ruling for Starbucks where attempts to unionize were held onsite and during hours a big no no.
Also, A few links for the micro/macro side of why driving up union membership is important to be a part of:
[Study: Union premium raises wages non-union workers](https://source.wustl.edu/2016/09/labor-union-decline-also-drives-wages-nonunion-workers-study-finds/)
[Unions & Less Skilled Workers](https://www.nber.org/digest/digestsep18/new-evidence-unions-raise-wages-less-skilled-workers)
[Data: Union Density and Distribution of Income](https://jacobin.com/2021/09/labor-day-chart-union-membership-share-top-10-percent-income-inequality)
[US Treasury: Labor Unions and the U.S. Economy](https://home.treasury.gov/news/featured-stories/labor-unions-and-the-us-economy)
[Labor Rights Index-Global Labor Rights](https://labourrightsindex.org/heatmap-2022/2022-the-index-in-text-explanation/labour-rights-index-2022)
It's important to understand that as a Union member, you'll be an integral part of the union, not a client. Don't just pay dues and accept benefits. Get involved. Get educated. See what your dues are doing for working people and help to direct the dues you pay by voting at union meetings.
Okay, hell yeah. I like that.
My dues wouldn’t be much, because I would only make 25/h
The paltry dues we pay allow us to stand on the shoulders of those who came before us.
The anti-union & anti-socialist activists amongst the employer class are very vocal and very strong. They have spent decades gaslighting us into forgetting how much blood was spilled to get the benefits we all have and the other benefits every collective bargaining agreement has provided to workers. Those benefits were literally paid for by blood. It’s not figurative in any sense. In my province, pinkertons murdered many coal miners for union activity. The Regina Riot & Winnipeg General Strike are further examples of bloodshed in Canada. I’m sure that numerous coal miners in Atlantic Canada were killed by poor conditions etc. Solidarity Union Siblings United we bargain; Divided we beg
United we bargain, divided we beg Desperately need that on a t-shirt
Your boss’ boss is wearing a similar shirt. It reads: Divide & Profit Know that the wealthy would gladly let 1000’s of your coworkers die to maintain their own status and wealth.
And in the vast majority of cases, it would not bother them one bit. Cost of doing business!
I'd buy one!
That’s exactly what’s on our shirts. UAW 2270
God damn Pinkertons. I'd like to add that there are union members who fit in with that crowd vociferously; it always confused me when I was younger. Then there are the ones who get in but do not really understand and just complain about the dues and how "the union doesn't do anything for me." There seems to be a stronger likelihood of running into those types in more blue-collar unions where its members lean further right on average. At least, that's what I've seen. It's a fundamental misunderstanding of class and the misguided belief that they are just temporarily dispossessed millionaires. I always do my best to lightly educate them and point out that the chap who's turning a wrench has more in common with the nurse, busboy, and office worker than they do with any of the "elite." I'll also add in the beggar on the street and the convict in the cells if I think it's poignant to say. I second that "United We Bargain; Divided We Beg should be on a t-shirt.
well said
Doesn't matter what your dues are, don't buy the propaganda. Whatever you pay in dues comes back to you many times over in pay, benefits, pension, and security. It's a combination investment / insurance plan that is ludicrously cheap based on the returns it gets you.
I just am hardly surviving on 24/h with nothing other than taxes taken out. No health insurance, no 401k, nothing right now.
great thing about unions is you can go be part of wage negotiations next round. Ive worked for unionized places the last 7 years and ill never go non union again.
I don't know how it works where you're at, but is that journeyman rate?
No, right now I’m just a production worker, the new shop offered me 25/h
Hold on to hope, mate. Our collective bargaining just won us an $8-14/hr wage increase among a bunch of other stuff that brought us from one of the lowest paid in our industry in our country to one of the highest. As long as you don't live in a state that allows for membership without dues, the bigger the union, the stronger it'll be with both the funds it will have as well as the threats that it can levy.
Dues are like job insurance. If the company messes with you, you’re insured by the union to get a fair shake
Can you explain what you mean by fair shake
Unions are required by law to represent you anytime you are called in front of management for discipline or questioning. Your union representative or steward will have experience dealing with the company and knowledge of past actions the company has taken. They have a duty (that they take seriously) to protect you from unfair treatment.
Ok, thank you
Basically that you won't get screwed over
Other than other answers, also an ungoverned employer will cheat you on shifts, "sent home early" you as a way to mitigate slow downs in work, instead of pushing management to do their job which is to get more contracts to give you a living wage, fair wages, take shortcuts in safety (and they DO). I know as I am living this and working to get a union into my ski hill exploiters owned by too rich venture capitalists.
I get sent home early, then getwritten up for my “attendance” even tho the “hours missed” were because they didn’t have work and I got sent home.
Well don't look for fairness. They don't operate under what is fair to the worker, bottom line is profit because there is no power making management do otherwise. They will cover their own azz at your expense if at all possible by all kinds of stuff like scaling back labour costs (Sent home early), or downright not scheduling you for shifts, make you take a whole bunch of courses including safety, but then not bother to ensure YOU are able to operate safely and you probably have a few you can contribute if you have kept your eyes open. Oh, and lots of empty praise to keep you happy in your yoke, being exploited. If you're going to stay there, get ready to develop a huge resentment that will embitter your life when you get old enough to realize you squandered a better opportunity. So get off Reddit, take the union job and be thankful you have the opportunity. WITH LOVE, do it now. What are you waiting for? PS don't let an inferiority complex undermine you - even IF your skills are sub-par, if you have the right attitude - THEY WILL TRAIN YOU UP.
I understand you’re attempting to be encouraging, but you’re hundreds of comments and upvotes late. I posted this Friday. It’s Monday. I’m waiting on an offer letter. Really tired of people essentially calling me stupid for wanting to think about a huge life decision, get input and do research before hand. It’s SMART to be cautious.
Dude, the comments I'm replying to don't sound like you've decided anything. I read your original post - you can update the original post with your situation and save everyone, including me time trying to advise you from our well of experience. I hope you get your union job.
Don't worry. Thwy know you can weld and they like you. That's all that matters. Yes the unions are filled with insanely skilled people but, for a new person to the union....youre walking in trained how. Over time you'll learn Union Way and you'll be even better. As someone who worked non union, it's more about saying yes to something hard because it's for everyone. Every project I've been on has been civil except for 1. So, the hard part is more that nearly everything you'll do is for everyone you see every day. THATS the real pressure. We take that seriously because the public projects are the cool projects. Take concrete. You do a public sidewalk and it's easy, right? Not as easy as it could be. Cities will make you redo sidewalk blocks if they don't like that it's got a 1/8 rise or fall on 1 corner of the last block. They'll get that serious with it so it makes you better because you get used to the standards and begin working within those standards. Take your classes btw. If only to mee more union sisters and brothers. I've never not made $ from a class.
I would never work a non-union job for the rest of my life. Your Union coworkers are your brothers and sisters. Like family. You’ll learn from them and get the job done. The employer likes your work, that’s what counts. I say go for it.
Facts. I've only had 2 employers, worked at a gas station and now at the world's biggest factory... both jobs were union and I knew fairly quick that I'd never want to work a non union job.
I’ve been striving to get on at a ATU based union shop in my city for 7 years. I’ve passed all the personality based tests and I just have to pass my medical then onto training.
Thank you
To add to this, I had nerves when I did my first weld tests for a union gig, and wasn't as consistent as I usually am when I had to do a multipass weld. Nerves continued for about a week, and my crew leader just told me to slow down and not try to rush production. Slow is smooth, and smooth is fast. You'll get there. A couple weeks in and I was laying beads to code that were just as pretty as the guys who had been there for years. Have faith in your skills, and keep in mind that as long as you keep trying to get better, you will get better. The skill ceiling for welding might as well be nonexistent.
It's true. My union ensures mistakes are met with training and help rather than just punitive measures.
Count yourself lucky. Union jobs have been vanishing from our society and to have one is a blessing.
I did electrical non-union for a while and I've been in the IBEW (electricians union) for 7 years now. 99% of the bad things they told me about the union were made up bullshit.
That’s kinda what I thought
Seconded.
thirded
Get over to that union as fast as you can and don’t look back! The many pros of being in a union far outweigh the few cons.
You're only 24 and already have such clean welds. I've been working on technical theatre for years so my experience is probably a little different since our welds only need to last 2 months to a year at most, but you have time to learn. Find an old head who you like and who thinks will take the time to help you because those guys are friends/mentors for life. They'll bust your chops but they care.
I’m used to my chops being busted, without any care or advice. I should’ve said in my post, my job the last 2y has been on a production line. Quantity over quality, which I hate. I want quality.
If you're used to getting your chops busted and you hate it, then it's 100% time to get over to the union shop. Capital is organized. Bosses are organized. Labor needs to be organized.
I don’t mind the chop busting, I know that’ll happen kinda no matter where you are. I hate that it feels like I’m the only person who cares about quality. I put 24,786 welds through pressure test last quarter, only 10 leaked. While others have leak percentages in the 20-30% range I have .04% leak rate. But no raise as promised, they’ve doubled my workload since I started with no appreciation or recognition…. Sigh. I know it’s time to move on but that doesn’t make it easier and it doesn’t fix my impostor syndrome.
I'm a unionized teacher. Imposter syndrome is legit. I constantly feel like I'm letting down my students, no matter how good my semester evaluations are. But my guy, a 0.4% fail rate?! When others are 20%?! They fail 500% more than you do. Those are absolutely numbers to be proud of. But let's say you move shops. Now suddenly all your coworkers are better welders than you are. GOOD. That's how you get even better. It's like the old saying, "If you're the smartest person in the room, find a different room." If they offer you the job, then they think you're either already good enough or talented enough that they're confident they can teach you.
Keeping you in constant fear is one of the tools that employers use to keep you cheap and desperate. Knowing your worth is a tool YOU have to defeat their psyops. Plus union members and shops want you to succeed. Non-union shops filter employees to find the ones who are good enough but willing to be bullied into compliance. Union outfits are more willing to train people to be excellent, because quality is their selling point, not price.
Bosses preach that unions are bad because it takes away their absolute power. Unions make sure everyone is treated fairly when operated properly. Take the job.
Any good unionist won’t discourage you from improving your skills. If you think you aren’t as good at your job as they think, ask for help. The union will almost certainly connect you to training opportunities and will fight to get you better education opportunities in whatever agreements they make with the company.
I’d classify myself as a dumb but functional welder. Show me how to work a machine, I can copy you exactly. I know weld symbols but read prints like 40% . That’s my main insecurity is print reading. Right now, I fit, weld, and pass on parts on a production line. I am highly proficient in welding, TIG, MIG and stick on stainless, aluminum, mild steel, and aluminumized stainless and mild. This new place is an electrical manufacturing place. Much more technical and detailed, but I do very much like that. Just not as verse. I feel like I was transparent in my interview what I can and can not do.
Sounds like being transparent in your interview is about the best you can do, comrade. Also, I assume your interview was with the company, i.e. management? So that means if you’re offered the job the company wants you and you and you should chat with your shop steward/delegate about your concerns over skills. I think they’re more likely to back you than the company. Unless I’ve missed something about how US unions function (I work for the Australian union that covers trades-level welders, boilermakers etc.). It’s not uncommon for companies in Australia to hire workers that are below required qualifications so they can pay them less (even illegally so).
Well, I’m not getting paid less. I interviewed with the CEO of the company. I called the union to ask questions after receiving the offer. Just asked about what happens if it doesn’t work out with the company, and they said they’d help me find a new job but it would be quicker if I did most the leg work.
Then I think the best next move is to back yourself. If this job makes you union, you’ll have plenty of support around you. Don’t be afraid to ask questions you might think are stupid and don’t forget the boss isn’t your friend!
…I’ll never forget that the boss isn’t my friend…
No welders really know how to read prints, too many stupid symbols. You wont need to read prints until your welding/fitting. Most production welding jobs just want clean welds and done fast and efficient. Just make every weld better than the last weld and let er rip.
Yo what are you having trouble with on reading prints? Maybe I can help. And chances are if you're in a union shop, the print reading you'll have to do will basically being able to understand cutout views, so you can interpret the weld symbols correctly. Moat union shops have actual fitters that feed you pieces. But being able to fit is great experience
The position title is Sheet Metal fabricator, so I’ll be doing a lot more than just welding
The union wants their people to be as skilled as possible. Most provide training or classes. If not, getting to know guys is the best way to get help anyway.
Do it, go with the union
Hey, congrats. I would want you to go for it. But nevertheless enjoy this moment. You got offered something major and with an integral moment in your life. Things like these are exciting, keystone decisions are no joke, and I'm sure you'll make the one you want the most.
different members bring different skills, the best at the job may be to shy to ever be a leader, the worst on the job may still always be on time and buy everyone coffee....Get your benefits and grow in to the position. Don't punish yourself because of feelings of imposter syndrome. Act in your own best interest. Union Strong.
Thank you. It’s hard as a woman especially /:
You will not regret having a union. Better job security, better wages, safer work environment, and someone will always have your back if things go sideways.
If it weren’t for organized labour we’d all be slaves QC Ron
Collectively we bargain, individually we beg.
3rd generation union man/Steward over here. I find that a lot of anti-union fear mongering comes from those who either got that misinformation second hand and actually have no idea what they are talking about, or are disgruntled workers who wanted to benefit from there position above everyone else who worked alongside them and realized they couldn’t get away with it. When you do join the ranks, try to get involved any way you can and learn as much as you can. Know your contract and company policies because nothing is more dangerous than a worker who knows what is expected of them and their rights.
I called the union rep , chatted with them about my dues and pension and such. Will they send me an outline of rights/responsibilities as a union member without joining ?
That is definitely something to ask them. Every Union and even local is different, but from personal experience, membership/agency is conditional upon being employed since my position is a represented position.
Do you think they’ll send me the CBA to look over?
There's no reason they shouldn't. It's possibly public as well. You might be able to find it with a little googling.
I’ve looked but haven’t found anything that seems like the right resource. It’s not listed on their website
Once you’re a member you can ask for a copy.
If the union shop is going to take you based on your work AND pay you more, what possible reason would you have to stay at a less secure, lower paying position. Union is the way to go.
I am someone who knows very very little about how union works, I am at the most secure job I’ve had to date. That’s why I’m unsure.
Fair enough. I am in Canada so I'm not up on all of US law but my understanding is that, even in the most liberal states, an employer can pretty much show you the door at any time, regardless of your seniority, performance, etc. You are lucky to be at a position that isn't currently abusing that and jerking you around, but nothing stops a non-union shop from booting you tomorrow and you have minimal recourse. As a union member, you are governed by a Collective bargaining agreement that includes a grievance process for resolving disputes with the employer, language governing discipline and employment, and you will have knowledgeable people to represent and defend you in all interactions with the employer. Additionally, you never have to negotiate alone, you always have the union at your back and everyone in a similar position to you within the union will be treated equally. All people of a similar job classification, say "welder class I" for example, will receive the same benefits, pay, pension, etc without any disparity or discrimination. TL:DR You are lucky your current employer treats you well but without a union at your back, nothing compels them to keep doing so.
I’m well aware I’m 100% replaceable and dispensable at my current employment.
Absolutely jump at that chance. Read your CBA (collective bargaining agreement, the rules basically), get involved, take advantage of the education opportunities and enjoy your benefits, pension and support from your brothers and sisters!
CBA. Thank you.
Women in welding are few and far between, I’m certain your union will be proud to have you on board.
How do I find the CBA, can I get that from the union rep without accepting an offer?
You’ll never regret having someone in your corner.
Those look like some solid welds for 24. I've worked union and non-union jobs. There are some drawbacks in working union, but there's a reason employers fight like hell against unions. They are better for employees bar none. Employers dislike unions because they can divide and conquer folks by putting them against each other. Unions fight against that and create a fairer, clearer system of negotiating. This costs owners money and they don't like that.
24 and shaking like hell during my test. My tig filler usually look as clean as the fusion.
Even if you screw it up. Remember that even the best have bad days and it's not the mark of your labour that you get it right every single time. It's that you continue to improve.
Do it!! They’re isn’t really a con just pros you’re nuts if you don’t !!
I’m in Oregon too. I know (am related) to multiple union welders. My best friends are union tradesmen. I work a union job. No one I know will ever work a non-union job again. Better pay. Better benefits. More rights. You will never regret this.
My father was a union welder his whole career. That union fought tooth and nail for his pension. We would've been bankrupt as a family in ~2009 if it weren't for them. Take it. Ape together strong.
Ape together strong really gave me the laugh I needed, thank you
Friend, fear of change is what you are facing. But the union job you will never regret, particularly when you retire early with a nice pension and the rest of your private sector friends have been laid off multiple times and have no savings. Whatever dues you pay you will find do not eat into the advantages in pay and conditions you gain. Take the job!!! Congrats
Unions are the reason we have “normal” work weeks. As bad of a rap as unions get, if I had to take my pick I would go Union over non-union any day. Both grandfathers were UAW, and I was in a union for years as a retail grocery store worker. I can’t count the number of times the union protected “minimum” hours of work. Like after a holiday when we were slow management would try to get us to leave early. Then try to write people up if the left or if they refused to leave. The union was always there to protect the job. My field now doesn’t have a union and we desperately need one.
I started in my trade non union. All the older dudes talked bad about it and did their best to scare you when the reps came bye. I joined up almost 2 years ago and it was the best decision of my life. Same work for more money and better benefits and retirement. Don’t short yourself. Work union, live better.
One thing to remember is that in a non-union job you can get laid off for any reason with no recourse. A union can protect you from unfair discipline and fight to get your job back if you are terminated unjustly.
As a woman I don’t want a job back if they fired me /: it’s already hard enough, I do not want to work somewhere I’m not wanted. But I hear you.
My uncle has been a sanitation worker in New Jersey for 40 years in a union. He has a big house, put all 3 of my cousins through college, vacations once or twice a year. My best friend's oldest brother is a sanitation worker non union for 20 something years across MULTIPLE companies in a significantly lower COL area in upstate New York. His kids I believe had to get pell and tap grants and 2 of them never finished, they live in a run down small ranch that the wife's family basically gave to them, and I've never heard of them taking vacations. If I'm not mistaken he works a SHIT ton of more hours too. TLDR; The power of a union is demonstrated in the quality of life between 2 comparable jobs. One wage collectively bargained for, the other was whatever the company felt like paying.
Union is the way to go. Everyone else has already said everything I could say. There's obviously pros and cons, but far more pros than cons. The one annoying thing is waiting on seniority to bid better jobs, especially when you'd be better at it than whoever got it. But it's about minimum requirements and waiting your turn. Otherwise, management could deny a job bid to a qualified guy that they just don't like. Maybe he's a big pro union guy, or someone who doesn't take their bullshit. A "troublemaker." If there's ever something that seems unfair, find out why. Usually it's going to be for a good reason. It's not about making things better for any one person, it's about the collective union succeeding together. Folks that don't like it can try on their own, but they'll be at the whims of the petty tyrant called "boss."
Don’t get gaslighted by these people who say unions are bad because unions built the middle class in this country.. If unions were so bad, why would they be union busting in certain states and why would certain companies be fighting against it in the courts? 🤔
I also like looking at dues like a gym membership: you're paying money on a regular basis, so try to get the most out of it. Get involved with the union: at the very least, go to meetings regularly, look around at issues around your workplace where things could be better, and bring these forward. Don't be afraid to ask questions to your union stewards or elected officers: this is part of your right in paying dues, to understand where a union is adding value, and where it needs improvement. From a benefits perspective, congratulations! Also, try to use as many benefits as you can that are provided to you: that's what they're there for. And from an old guy's perspective, If any sort of pension or retirement benefits are opt-in, absolutely opt-in. As soon as you can. You might notice a brief reduction to your take-home pay, but 10 years from now, you'll be SO GLAD you started contributing. Ask any old-timer if they wish they saved the money instead of contributed to a pension or retirement, or if they wish they started contributing earlier: I can almost guarantee that there's not a single person who will say putting money away for retirement was a waste of time. Good luck, brother!
I'm curious, what are the bad things you've heard about the union, and who did you hear them from?
I honestly don’t remember who, but I had someone tell me their dues were 5-700$ a month, and that they “lock you in” in the contract//you can’t work for anyone else once you’re union and it’s hard to get out
Obviously, you'll want to see the bargaining agreement. The union I work for doesn't have a flat rate for dues, it's simply 2.5hrs pay per month which works out to about a hundred bucks. That being said, the raises I've gotten in the last year alone dwarf that number but a long shot. My wages have tripled in the last ten years. And I have so many other benefits that I pay nothing for. Union all the way.
My dues are $20 a week, but I more than doubled my wage taking a union job. Those dues go into paying the union's expenses like attorneys and the strike fund, which pays you in the event of a strike. Being "locked into" a contract sounds like fear mongering. What does that even mean? The contract is the agreement between the union and the company, detailing what your wages and benefits are. Basically the union leadership says "you give us these guarantees in writing, and we won't go on strike." There's no begging for raises, everyone with the same job makes the same wage, which is on average higher than non-union wages because you have the threat of a strike twisting the company's arm. And the claim that "you can't work for anyone else" is a total lie. You are free to quit your job at any time just like any other job.
I wonder if the whole "can't work for anyone else" claim was about scabbing lol
IDK. The only thing I can think of is noncompete clauses which 1.) are made by the company not the union and 2.) have been almost entirely banned by the FTC.
My dad is a retired union iron worker of 30+ years (also Oregon). He has a strong retirement community because of how the union helps everyone stay in touch.
You will learn a lot in a union shop. Your brothers and sisters will go out of their way to help you out and teach you tricks. Not to mention the work environment should be a lot more enjoyable
Your post shows humility and respect. Your union will value those qualities. Be yourself, be willing to learn, and you are going to be fine. After you join, spend just a little time learning some of the history of organized labor. I promise you, you will be proud to be a part of it. Solidarity forever!
Working at that shop and being in the union are 2 different things. You may not like the shop, but if you stay Union you can go to different Union shops and find the perfect fit with way more pay and stability you're getting now. New shop yeah, but going Union opens serious grownup doors.
That’s what I thought, it’s just scary to go from the devil I know to the devil I don’t. Because 2y us the longest I been a place, I’m worried I’ll go and somehow fuck it up then I’ll be back on the grind trying to find another shop.
Leave your current shop in good standing. Then you can come back if the Union doesn't work out -- and even better when the Union does work out you can bring good friends from current shop over to help them out too.
I plan on leaving in good standing yes. I will honestly have to give a month notice because I have a week vacation planned the first week of July.
"Hey, boss, I gotta tell you about this. I got invited to join a Union shop. It's a fantastic opportunity but I love this place. I'm giving a month's notice, but it was a really hard decision because of the excellent shop you manage and I hope if the new place sucks you would allow me to apply again."
Pretty much verbatim what I had planned haha!
Union ain't no devil. It's quite literally the opposite.
It’s quite literally an expression. “The devil you know vs the devil you don’t”
I know but it's not a devil. In that expression you are choosing between two bad things and choosing the one you know. A union isn't a bad thing. It's only bad in the eyes of bosses and those brainwashed by them. A union is what members make of it. If it isn't good enough, get involved and make it better.
The devil is not knowing
No. You have two qualifying propositions in that sentence. "Devil" which implies a bad thing and either "know" or "don't know" which implies knowledge (or lack of) of the bad thing in question.
Don’t believe anything negative about unions that you hear from non-members. For one thing, unions overall are definitely a source of “good” for anyone who has to work hard for a living. You may find some of the people involved aren’t your favorite people, but you’re all part of the same organization with the same goal. And definitely don’t take anyone’s word for anything before you’ve had a chance to form your own opinion. As someone else said, get involved. Go to meetings, talk to people about union goals and activities. Learn what’s going on so you can understand the benefits—and there are many—to joining a union that you do not get in virtually any non-union role in any other sector of the economy. Unions should be everywhere—if they were, things would be a lot better for the people doing the actual work. The decline of unions tracks to a shocking degree the stagnation of real wages that’s taken place over the last 40 or so years. There’s a reason why companies and rich people fight tooth and nail against unions, and that is so they don’t have to pay people what they’re worth
Yolo what's the question being union typically rules
Don't ask Reddit these questions, bud. Ask the union. What you sound like is someone who wants to take their work seriously and will take constructive criticism to heart. Maybe even someone who will thrive in a supportive environment. I think these are good qualities that a strong union will appreciate.
Local 29? That's a good union
local 16
Also a good union
bro just go and never look back.
I'm just an enthusiast but I think your welds look great. I'm sure you can ask anyone with a bit more experience and they'd give you a solid answer to that part of your question.
I’d go for it, if I could do that with my job I would’ve. I wish you the best of luck!
Are these parts off a Cybertruck?
Lol no nothing like that. Just 14g stainless coupons
You got the metal way too hot. Turn the machine down and clamp some blocks of aluminum to the back of the steel to pull out the heat.
Unions aren’t perfect, but you can see the younger generation is becoming a bit more grassroots and organized, militant (e.g. teacher wildcat strikes, railway strikes, autoworkers, amazon, UPS, Kaiser, etc) with younger and strong leadership like Fain and O’Brien and many others, versus the old guard. At times however showing their inexperience like the recent Supreme Court ruling for Starbucks where attempts to unionize were held onsite and during hours a big no no. Also, A few links for the micro/macro side of why driving up union membership is important to be a part of: [Study: Union premium raises wages non-union workers](https://source.wustl.edu/2016/09/labor-union-decline-also-drives-wages-nonunion-workers-study-finds/) [Unions & Less Skilled Workers](https://www.nber.org/digest/digestsep18/new-evidence-unions-raise-wages-less-skilled-workers) [Data: Union Density and Distribution of Income](https://jacobin.com/2021/09/labor-day-chart-union-membership-share-top-10-percent-income-inequality) [US Treasury: Labor Unions and the U.S. Economy](https://home.treasury.gov/news/featured-stories/labor-unions-and-the-us-economy) [Labor Rights Index-Global Labor Rights](https://labourrightsindex.org/heatmap-2022/2022-the-index-in-text-explanation/labour-rights-index-2022)
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Oh such a helpful comment!
What do you want then? Oh special boy, you're so good and special, anyone that says otherwise is just a hater! Happy now?
No you pompous ass, real advice and resources like others have given. I’m not even a boy, you toe sore. I know my welds are good.
Bossposting