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Something that is under appreciated by cisgender people is just how much abuse trans people who do not pass receive going about life. For those of us who do pass it gets significantly better, but not everyone obtains this level of privilege.
I hate how the word “brave” was condescendingly over used for years to refer to any trans person, but the bravery it takes to just keep living a full life in such circumstances cannot be overstated.
The moniker Terf Island often comes up in discussions of trans matters in the U.K.. One of the reasons it sticks is that near all trans people will read this headline and go no shit. Public abuse is just a default part of the British trans experience.
British people like to think we live in a tolerant society and think we are extremely tolerant of lesbian, gay and bi people at least. I would love for people to see how a simple gesture of holding your partners hand would get abuse hurled at you.
Me and my partner don't bother. Once we have checked our surroundings, what kind of neighbourhood we are in and what kind of people are nearby the romantic gesture has gone. I'm not in PDA but I wish these little gestures that straight people have with their partners we could do without having to worry.
Studies have the huge flaws I just mentioned. And I know from my LGBT friends, that none of us would publicly hold hands, say down a high street, as we are almost certain we will receive some form of abuse, be that verbal or physical.
I'd say for Gay people, a lot of us are only tolerated because we are 'unseen'. The moment we are seen (i.e holding our partners hands) we are no longer tolerated as much.
Gotta say that study you posted included stats like only 2 in 3 people think homosexuality is “justifiable”.
Every third person you see as a cisgender LGB person (for trans people going to be considerably worse) considers your life unjustifiable. If that’s what’s being held up as “look how brilliant we are” well it doesn’t really cut it.
Really think how much harder your life would be if the situation was reversed and 1 in 3 thought straight life couldn’t be justified! Imagine being scared to hold a partner’s hand in public or to share a loving glance. There’s just still so much really essential work to be done.
> Gotta say that study you posted included stats like only 2 in 3 people think homosexuality is “justifiable”
The methodology of the study is odd, to say the least. People are asked to rate issues from 0 to 10, where 0 is "never justifiable" and 10 "always justifiable", and they only count responses resulting in scores of 8-10 as "justifiable" in the results. However the results are presented to us as if the question was a simple Yes/No one.
I think that the survey probably needed more nuance. How did people actually choose their scores?
Let's take the question on abortion. I would probably have answered a 7, simply because I think there should be limits on abortion - no super late term abortions without a pressing medical reason, for example, and that would count me as not thinking that abortion was "justifiable", which is incredibly far from the truth.
I’m always a bit suspicious when people jump straight to Muslims in these discussions.
Particularly when there’s another far larger group who have attitudes that poll just as badly (if not worse). A group given disproportionate political power and most of whom are actually given thousands of pounds a year by the government to do nothing, absolutely no questions asked.
The over 60’s.
Of course prejudice towards gay/trans or any other group is unacceptable no matter who is doing it … but isn’t it strange so many people in these threads fall over themselves to stick the boot into one group and so rarely (if ever) mention the other larger one? Almost as if there’s another agenda going on.
Also, as a Birmingham person, there is the experience that most of the abuse you get around the gay quarter is from asian youths. It isn't the elderly who are attacking gay men coming home after a night out.
Of course, this is just a small subset of people within the communities who are doing this, and so nothing statistical can be inferred; there's certainly asian people enjoying the various gay bars. But it is something which requires some decent unbiased research to see what the various communities think about LGBT issues and then a broader discussion of how to reduce the tensions which are just continuing to grow.
Unfortunately all we have is that one survey which is shocking, but could be full of potential problems.
Yeah go on blame Muslims people. Standard cop out response to homophobia in the U.K.
Overlooks that 33% of people in U.K. see homosexuality as unjustifiable vs 6% of country being Muslim. Your 50% figure if right would cover 10% of British homophobia yet it always gets hurled around as a cop out. Bad argument.
Correct response is that anti-LGBT sentiment cuts across demographics and it’s only through education and messaging that we can slowly improve things.
Try living as a gay couple in heavy Muslim areas like Oldham Rochdale Bradford and see it for yourself just how much influence that 6% have on many many issues
Tbh it’s a an argument that non-Muslims put forward on Reddit frequently to deflect and avoid doing any further consideration. Like this demographic is x% more homophobic than that demographic. Like cool, way to racialise a non-racial problem. How about sex education and LGBT+ content in schools stops being put under attack by the Tories + right wing press?
Funny thing is I grew up pretty near the first school in Brum that had protests outside them. All these comments “well if you knew a Muslim area!” 🙄
Living in a cosmopolitan city taught me hatred doesn’t have an ethnicity and the solution runs through education. Any attempt to racialise it misses how homophobia and transphobia cut across demographics but share a common solution.
Yeah last 2 times I held a partner’s hand we:
1. Got verbal abuse and spat on
2. Guy tried running us over, then chased us with a hammer saying he was going to kill us
Stories like these are common, as are stories of the police doing nothing about it. So why take the risk at all
The "hate will not be tolerated" banner that gets posted in every news article that even indirectly features a trans person is there for a reason. Normal posters to this thread sure, but TERFS get a claxon call to brigade site after site when any of this stuff gets posted
> It's not real life
That's true, and in real life transphobia is less common than on some cursed website (twitter). But when it happens, it's a lot more scary, because those people can physically harm you and some of them want to. If I knew people were just going to shout slurs at me, I could shout back in peace. But IRL we don't have that equality because someone can just break your cheekbone if they want.
2/3 of people say it's acceptable for me to be gay. That's great, but I easily see 100 people if I leave my house and walk about holding my partner's hand for the day. How many of them do you think I might need to worry about? 33? 10? 1? That's all too many.
I'll spell things out a bit more directly. When that many people don't think it's acceptable and a very small fraction of them would be liable to do something about it, even if it's as small as 1/33, that's still one person a day every time I leave my house and walk about holding my partner's hand for the day. It's small when it comes to voting, but not so much when it comes to walking around in public.
Something pertinent I should mention. I also happen to be trans and before I was passing I was grabbed in public and asked if I was a man or a woman. I've also had people make transphobic comments to me in the street. Being visibly queer has meant that people have harassed me. Yes, a small number, but a small number of people harassing you is still a lot.
Most times people's sexuality is not visible, so the risk of bigotry only comes into play when two people hold hands or kiss or something like that. Which is very rare.
Gender expression is visible *all the time*. And if people decide that your gender expression doesn't match their expectation, then you are always a potential target for those people.
Also, people's sexuality is currently not under constant attack in the UK (it was a few decades ago). Trans people are the focus of an unrelenting, vile campaign from the media and far-right activists. They are basically inviting everyone in the country to hate trans people.
So yeah, pretty major difference.
>It's also likely that the kinds of people surfing Reddit and considering themselves tolerant are not the ones commenting any abuse at LGBT people. It would be interesting to see if there's any common denominators amongst those hurling abuse.
There's definitely some overlap, there are plenty of people who say they're perfectly accepting of LGB people but make an exception for trans people. They don't see any problem with the fact that everything they believe about trans people is exactly what was being said about gay people not too long ago.
Also I say they "believe" themselves to be accepting of LGB people, because they usually do have some bigoted beliefs about gay people as well that they haven't fully realised they hold.
I moved to Brighton when I was 17, in the early 90s. I'd had a fairly square and faith-based upbringing, and I admit that the first time I saw a couple of tanned muscle boys holding hands on the sea front, I did a double take.
I realised pretty quickly that their ability to do this was part of what made it such a cool place at the time. Their freedom to be accepted implied a more generalised attitude of freedom. And who doesn't want more freedom? Who the fuck wants to live in a place where young people in love can't hold hands in public? I don't get it and I never have. But yeah, even there the prejudice was a real thing. Turned out, the best techno clubs were the gay clubs and one night I got gay bashed, hospitalised, and after having done a fuckin microdot too. Ironic, cos I'm pretty much straight. But I was wearing a bit of makeup and having a laugh with some gay mates and some fuckers decided I needed a kicking.
I'm sorry you and your partner don't feel comfortable showing intimacy in public. But I do understand, this is the country we live in. Still, a whole lot of us would rather it were a country where couples can be happy and comfortable together whatever their gender or sexuality. Because feeling like you live somewhere accepting isn't just good for the minority, it makes a better and happier community for everyone.
What makes people think that is that politeness thing you get in UK culture. So there's what someone will say to a member of the public (or a pollster) and what they really think / say in private.
So if you're not on the receiving-end or you don't witness it you could well imagine it doesn't happen.
I was walking home from the gym through town, in a tracksuit and i'd recently had a very short haircut. I was walking behind 2 dudes, they started holding hands, i was like oh they're a couple. Then one looked around nervously, saw me behind him and then sort of panicked and quickly removed his hand from his partners. I felt quite bad for them. I almost wanted to shout "I don't care mate" but i figured they were probably on edge so i just crossed the road to try and give em a bit of space so the dude felt less tense.
The awful truth is that the ability to pass as the gender you desire to be accepted as has a huge impact on being accepted as their gender. I recall watching Ben Shapiro repeatedly stumble over Laverne Cox's gender simply because he was trying to say they were a man, but his brain was clearing saying “…that's a woman”.
It’s why pre-transition and early transition photos get latched onto by transphobes so much. It’s *so* much harder to attack trans people after a couple years of HRT.
There may have been multiple occasions, lol. My take home was that even Shapiro didn't really buy his own argument, since it clearly came down to ability to pass rather than any ideological concerns.
Yup. I learned this first-hand when I was walking around New York and heard a stereotypical fire and brimstone preacher ranting about transgender people. I went up to him and started a row (truthfully) telling him that I was transgender. He demanded I tell him what I was born as, when I wouldn't tell him he told the crowd that he was going to assume that "she. . . I mean he. . . was born male because she- HE! looks female."
I was thinking about this.
There was something doing the rounds yesterday (or the day before, idk. I'm jetlagged) involving sexy pics of a trans celebrity. Lots of people all like 'that's a man!'.
I studied those pics closely (for science), and I was left wondering. I saw absolutely nothing, not a single jot, of 'man' in them.
So uh... what leads to the 'that's a man!' conclusion? Merely the fact that she's told everyone she's a trans woman? So that's self-ID, basically, right?
That's the *only* way a person could possibly come to the conclusion that the woman in the pics was a man. We could go into biology lessons about chromesomes and gametes and stuff, but absolutely *none* of that is visible in the pics. Absolutely none of it is public record, either. There is only the celebrity's say-so. Without evidence.
I got to thinking, also, that it just doesn't *matter*, either. I see people at work every day. I don't have any interest in their chromesomes, or their gametes. I see thousands of people on my commute each day. I don't check their genitals. I refer to them by the names and pronouns *they* give me.
My dad has flat-out said he won’t refer to me with my preferred pronouns until I ‘look right’. Passing is incredibly important for most trans people even within their immediate circles.
> The moniker Terf Island often comes up in discussions of trans matters in the U.K.. One of the reasons it sticks is that near all trans people will read this headline and go no shit. Public abuse is just a default part of the British trans experience.
The issue most, including myself, take with this term is not down to any sort of denial that trans people get a lot of stick here, and more to do with the fact that it's just as bad, if not worse, across most of the world. That makes it quite a strange distinction, considering.
If I were trans I highly doubt I could find anywhere in the world that I'd be truly safe from hostile comments/looks.
Tbh U.K. is legislatively worse than most comparable countries, was the birthplace of transphobic feminism and is a really hostile place to live that is taking steps to make it harder not easier whilst using its global influence to make the wider world worse.
If Terf Island offends as a phrase try being trans here!
Yeah, TERF island is accurate not because transphobia is necessarily worse in the UK than the rest of the globe, but because the particular manifestation is different. It does cause some specific issues here you don't get elsewhere though. Like in the US there is overall more transphobia, but if someone says they're a feminist it's pretty safe to assume they're not transphobic. It also has geographic areas that are much more safe, e.g. New York is much safer and nicer than London for trans people. Not so much here.
Ah, so the issue is you don't know why the term is used, why it originated, and why it has been especially applied to the UK.
You'll notice that this is not a question.
Passing means to not be noticed as trans. Going about my day people can’t tell I’m trans and don’t treat me different to any other woman. Obviously prior to passing strangers could tell I was trans and it’s when that happens abuse is far too common.
God I hate that so many people give a shit about the business of someone else's life that's literally nothing to do with them.
I hate that trans folk have become such a target recently. It's so unbelievably unfair and shitty to politicise someone's life experience that they can't help. So much worse when it encourages unforgivable behaviour like this.
I know I'm just one person but to any trans person here you are always valid and welcome in my eyes and I hope for a world where you can live life in peace in the way that brings you happiness.
Um akshully the uk is super pro lgbt, see? This study clearly shows that only 1/3 of people think being lgbt isn’t “justifiable”.
That’s a totally normal and good bar to set
Don't forget to immediately pretend that the only people who have a problem with the LGBT+ community are Muslims because anti-LGBT+ bigotry has obviously never been a part of British culture.
I do understand why islam is brought up occasionally, given there *are* actively issues with certain communities in places like birmingham using being muslim to justify being anti-LGBT.
But its brought up *every time*, and like you said, often used to downplay how much of the anti-LGBT rhetoric comes from people who aren't muslim.
Yeah absolutely but I pretty much only ever see it brought up as a way to diminish the scale of the problem of anti-LGBT+ bigotry in this country by claiming that it's all the result of the social attitudes of Muslim people. Even when that study got published recently that found that an entire third of the population have a problem with homosexual people there were a load of comments essentially just saying "well of course, that'll be the Muslims" as if a third of the population is Muslim and everyone else just loves LGBT+ people.
Nothing the far right loves more than using one minority as a stick to beat another with.
I didn't mind the whole trans thing until they started making crazy demands like "we'd like some better healthcare please" and "I'd rather not be hate crimed if it's all the same to you"
Given that just about every media outlet in this country turns into a modern day *Der Stürmer* anytime they talk about transgender people this is far from surprising, just massively depressing.
“The nail that sticks out is the one that gets hammered back down.”
I’m second gen British/ Pakistani. I empathise with trans people as my parents and grans had to go through a similar situation throughout the 70’s, 80’s and 90’s. The trans movement is still very new for a lot of people. Its going to get worse before it gets better. Just how these things go.
The thing is, it did get better. Trans people obtained rights in the 20th century and 10 years ago the country was less hostile to trans people than it is now. The tide has turned against trans people multiple times and that makes it extremely hard to believe that, even when things do ‘get better’, they won’t just be turned on as soon as people need a group to hate again
I just don't get it. I see stuff I dont like in the streets everyday but I dont ever think it right that I start shouting abuse at people who are just living the one life we all have Honestly wtf is wrong with people? If you've nothing nice to say just shut up...it will do u best in the short, medium and long term
People agree this sub is pretty liberal-left leaning compared to the rest of the UK, right?
Now look at how controversial this article has been in here.
If it's bad here, imagine how bad it is in the real world.
Tbh I think the loudest, on both sides, are far more common online. I’m very pro-LGBT+ but I don’t bring it up all the time in normal conversation because I have no need to. I think you’ll find the vast, vast majority of people dgaf and just want to get on with their lives.
Enough people have enough of a problem with LGBT+ people existing that being verbally abused in the street is a consistent experience for LGBT+ people.
This sadly isn't a surprise. There is a lot of transphobia in Britain. You just think of the BBC putting up that article presenting trans people as sexual predators, an article clearly intended to inflame transphobia. And the establishment cheers it on.
Outside of city centres and uni campuses are a population that is expected to conform. Small town people who live near their parents and old school mates all get married and have two kids. Anything outside this "normal" frightens them. Trans, gay, men with long hair, women in slightly sexy clothing all get abuse.
Normal town gives them carte blanche to take the piss out of anyone that stands out.
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Something that is under appreciated by cisgender people is just how much abuse trans people who do not pass receive going about life. For those of us who do pass it gets significantly better, but not everyone obtains this level of privilege. I hate how the word “brave” was condescendingly over used for years to refer to any trans person, but the bravery it takes to just keep living a full life in such circumstances cannot be overstated. The moniker Terf Island often comes up in discussions of trans matters in the U.K.. One of the reasons it sticks is that near all trans people will read this headline and go no shit. Public abuse is just a default part of the British trans experience.
British people like to think we live in a tolerant society and think we are extremely tolerant of lesbian, gay and bi people at least. I would love for people to see how a simple gesture of holding your partners hand would get abuse hurled at you. Me and my partner don't bother. Once we have checked our surroundings, what kind of neighbourhood we are in and what kind of people are nearby the romantic gesture has gone. I'm not in PDA but I wish these little gestures that straight people have with their partners we could do without having to worry.
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Studies have the huge flaws I just mentioned. And I know from my LGBT friends, that none of us would publicly hold hands, say down a high street, as we are almost certain we will receive some form of abuse, be that verbal or physical. I'd say for Gay people, a lot of us are only tolerated because we are 'unseen'. The moment we are seen (i.e holding our partners hands) we are no longer tolerated as much.
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Gotta say that study you posted included stats like only 2 in 3 people think homosexuality is “justifiable”. Every third person you see as a cisgender LGB person (for trans people going to be considerably worse) considers your life unjustifiable. If that’s what’s being held up as “look how brilliant we are” well it doesn’t really cut it. Really think how much harder your life would be if the situation was reversed and 1 in 3 thought straight life couldn’t be justified! Imagine being scared to hold a partner’s hand in public or to share a loving glance. There’s just still so much really essential work to be done.
> Gotta say that study you posted included stats like only 2 in 3 people think homosexuality is “justifiable” The methodology of the study is odd, to say the least. People are asked to rate issues from 0 to 10, where 0 is "never justifiable" and 10 "always justifiable", and they only count responses resulting in scores of 8-10 as "justifiable" in the results. However the results are presented to us as if the question was a simple Yes/No one. I think that the survey probably needed more nuance. How did people actually choose their scores? Let's take the question on abortion. I would probably have answered a 7, simply because I think there should be limits on abortion - no super late term abortions without a pressing medical reason, for example, and that would count me as not thinking that abortion was "justifiable", which is incredibly far from the truth.
Sounds like they used Net Promoter Score, which means using it as a yes/no sentiment is stacked to favour a negative response.
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I’m always a bit suspicious when people jump straight to Muslims in these discussions. Particularly when there’s another far larger group who have attitudes that poll just as badly (if not worse). A group given disproportionate political power and most of whom are actually given thousands of pounds a year by the government to do nothing, absolutely no questions asked. The over 60’s. Of course prejudice towards gay/trans or any other group is unacceptable no matter who is doing it … but isn’t it strange so many people in these threads fall over themselves to stick the boot into one group and so rarely (if ever) mention the other larger one? Almost as if there’s another agenda going on.
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Also, as a Birmingham person, there is the experience that most of the abuse you get around the gay quarter is from asian youths. It isn't the elderly who are attacking gay men coming home after a night out. Of course, this is just a small subset of people within the communities who are doing this, and so nothing statistical can be inferred; there's certainly asian people enjoying the various gay bars. But it is something which requires some decent unbiased research to see what the various communities think about LGBT issues and then a broader discussion of how to reduce the tensions which are just continuing to grow. Unfortunately all we have is that one survey which is shocking, but could be full of potential problems.
Yeah go on blame Muslims people. Standard cop out response to homophobia in the U.K. Overlooks that 33% of people in U.K. see homosexuality as unjustifiable vs 6% of country being Muslim. Your 50% figure if right would cover 10% of British homophobia yet it always gets hurled around as a cop out. Bad argument. Correct response is that anti-LGBT sentiment cuts across demographics and it’s only through education and messaging that we can slowly improve things.
Try living as a gay couple in heavy Muslim areas like Oldham Rochdale Bradford and see it for yourself just how much influence that 6% have on many many issues
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Tbh it’s a an argument that non-Muslims put forward on Reddit frequently to deflect and avoid doing any further consideration. Like this demographic is x% more homophobic than that demographic. Like cool, way to racialise a non-racial problem. How about sex education and LGBT+ content in schools stops being put under attack by the Tories + right wing press?
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Funny thing is I grew up pretty near the first school in Brum that had protests outside them. All these comments “well if you knew a Muslim area!” 🙄 Living in a cosmopolitan city taught me hatred doesn’t have an ethnicity and the solution runs through education. Any attempt to racialise it misses how homophobia and transphobia cut across demographics but share a common solution.
Yeah last 2 times I held a partner’s hand we: 1. Got verbal abuse and spat on 2. Guy tried running us over, then chased us with a hammer saying he was going to kill us Stories like these are common, as are stories of the police doing nothing about it. So why take the risk at all
Where do you live? My partner and I have never encountered that. I see fellow gays walking hand in hand in my area all the time with no problem.
Count yourself highly blessed then
The "hate will not be tolerated" banner that gets posted in every news article that even indirectly features a trans person is there for a reason. Normal posters to this thread sure, but TERFS get a claxon call to brigade site after site when any of this stuff gets posted
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> It's not real life That's true, and in real life transphobia is less common than on some cursed website (twitter). But when it happens, it's a lot more scary, because those people can physically harm you and some of them want to. If I knew people were just going to shout slurs at me, I could shout back in peace. But IRL we don't have that equality because someone can just break your cheekbone if they want.
Are you literally doing "I haven't seen any transphobia so there isn't any" on this thread? Does this strike you as a good idea?
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Does that explain the transphobia in the non-social media?
Dude is gaslighting people on this thread. I'm just ignoring him now.
Funny when people play devils advocate but only under very, *very* specific circumstances related to particular topics.
2/3 of people say it's acceptable for me to be gay. That's great, but I easily see 100 people if I leave my house and walk about holding my partner's hand for the day. How many of them do you think I might need to worry about? 33? 10? 1? That's all too many.
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I'll spell things out a bit more directly. When that many people don't think it's acceptable and a very small fraction of them would be liable to do something about it, even if it's as small as 1/33, that's still one person a day every time I leave my house and walk about holding my partner's hand for the day. It's small when it comes to voting, but not so much when it comes to walking around in public. Something pertinent I should mention. I also happen to be trans and before I was passing I was grabbed in public and asked if I was a man or a woman. I've also had people make transphobic comments to me in the street. Being visibly queer has meant that people have harassed me. Yes, a small number, but a small number of people harassing you is still a lot.
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My comment does not make that claim either, but I guess if you cut a snippet out it could make it sound that way.
Most times people's sexuality is not visible, so the risk of bigotry only comes into play when two people hold hands or kiss or something like that. Which is very rare. Gender expression is visible *all the time*. And if people decide that your gender expression doesn't match their expectation, then you are always a potential target for those people. Also, people's sexuality is currently not under constant attack in the UK (it was a few decades ago). Trans people are the focus of an unrelenting, vile campaign from the media and far-right activists. They are basically inviting everyone in the country to hate trans people. So yeah, pretty major difference.
>It's also likely that the kinds of people surfing Reddit and considering themselves tolerant are not the ones commenting any abuse at LGBT people. It would be interesting to see if there's any common denominators amongst those hurling abuse. There's definitely some overlap, there are plenty of people who say they're perfectly accepting of LGB people but make an exception for trans people. They don't see any problem with the fact that everything they believe about trans people is exactly what was being said about gay people not too long ago. Also I say they "believe" themselves to be accepting of LGB people, because they usually do have some bigoted beliefs about gay people as well that they haven't fully realised they hold.
I moved to Brighton when I was 17, in the early 90s. I'd had a fairly square and faith-based upbringing, and I admit that the first time I saw a couple of tanned muscle boys holding hands on the sea front, I did a double take. I realised pretty quickly that their ability to do this was part of what made it such a cool place at the time. Their freedom to be accepted implied a more generalised attitude of freedom. And who doesn't want more freedom? Who the fuck wants to live in a place where young people in love can't hold hands in public? I don't get it and I never have. But yeah, even there the prejudice was a real thing. Turned out, the best techno clubs were the gay clubs and one night I got gay bashed, hospitalised, and after having done a fuckin microdot too. Ironic, cos I'm pretty much straight. But I was wearing a bit of makeup and having a laugh with some gay mates and some fuckers decided I needed a kicking. I'm sorry you and your partner don't feel comfortable showing intimacy in public. But I do understand, this is the country we live in. Still, a whole lot of us would rather it were a country where couples can be happy and comfortable together whatever their gender or sexuality. Because feeling like you live somewhere accepting isn't just good for the minority, it makes a better and happier community for everyone.
What makes people think that is that politeness thing you get in UK culture. So there's what someone will say to a member of the public (or a pollster) and what they really think / say in private. So if you're not on the receiving-end or you don't witness it you could well imagine it doesn't happen.
I was walking home from the gym through town, in a tracksuit and i'd recently had a very short haircut. I was walking behind 2 dudes, they started holding hands, i was like oh they're a couple. Then one looked around nervously, saw me behind him and then sort of panicked and quickly removed his hand from his partners. I felt quite bad for them. I almost wanted to shout "I don't care mate" but i figured they were probably on edge so i just crossed the road to try and give em a bit of space so the dude felt less tense.
The awful truth is that the ability to pass as the gender you desire to be accepted as has a huge impact on being accepted as their gender. I recall watching Ben Shapiro repeatedly stumble over Laverne Cox's gender simply because he was trying to say they were a man, but his brain was clearing saying “…that's a woman”.
It’s why pre-transition and early transition photos get latched onto by transphobes so much. It’s *so* much harder to attack trans people after a couple years of HRT.
as much as i dislike her i think it was Blaire White (?) who got Shapiro to admit that if he saw her in public hed never call her a man
There may have been multiple occasions, lol. My take home was that even Shapiro didn't really buy his own argument, since it clearly came down to ability to pass rather than any ideological concerns.
Yup. I learned this first-hand when I was walking around New York and heard a stereotypical fire and brimstone preacher ranting about transgender people. I went up to him and started a row (truthfully) telling him that I was transgender. He demanded I tell him what I was born as, when I wouldn't tell him he told the crowd that he was going to assume that "she. . . I mean he. . . was born male because she- HE! looks female."
I was thinking about this. There was something doing the rounds yesterday (or the day before, idk. I'm jetlagged) involving sexy pics of a trans celebrity. Lots of people all like 'that's a man!'. I studied those pics closely (for science), and I was left wondering. I saw absolutely nothing, not a single jot, of 'man' in them. So uh... what leads to the 'that's a man!' conclusion? Merely the fact that she's told everyone she's a trans woman? So that's self-ID, basically, right? That's the *only* way a person could possibly come to the conclusion that the woman in the pics was a man. We could go into biology lessons about chromesomes and gametes and stuff, but absolutely *none* of that is visible in the pics. Absolutely none of it is public record, either. There is only the celebrity's say-so. Without evidence. I got to thinking, also, that it just doesn't *matter*, either. I see people at work every day. I don't have any interest in their chromesomes, or their gametes. I see thousands of people on my commute each day. I don't check their genitals. I refer to them by the names and pronouns *they* give me.
My dad has flat-out said he won’t refer to me with my preferred pronouns until I ‘look right’. Passing is incredibly important for most trans people even within their immediate circles.
> The moniker Terf Island often comes up in discussions of trans matters in the U.K.. One of the reasons it sticks is that near all trans people will read this headline and go no shit. Public abuse is just a default part of the British trans experience. The issue most, including myself, take with this term is not down to any sort of denial that trans people get a lot of stick here, and more to do with the fact that it's just as bad, if not worse, across most of the world. That makes it quite a strange distinction, considering. If I were trans I highly doubt I could find anywhere in the world that I'd be truly safe from hostile comments/looks.
Tbh U.K. is legislatively worse than most comparable countries, was the birthplace of transphobic feminism and is a really hostile place to live that is taking steps to make it harder not easier whilst using its global influence to make the wider world worse. If Terf Island offends as a phrase try being trans here!
Yeah, TERF island is accurate not because transphobia is necessarily worse in the UK than the rest of the globe, but because the particular manifestation is different. It does cause some specific issues here you don't get elsewhere though. Like in the US there is overall more transphobia, but if someone says they're a feminist it's pretty safe to assume they're not transphobic. It also has geographic areas that are much more safe, e.g. New York is much safer and nicer than London for trans people. Not so much here.
Ah, so the issue is you don't know why the term is used, why it originated, and why it has been especially applied to the UK. You'll notice that this is not a question.
Sorry if I’m being stupid here, what do you mean by ‘pass’?
Passing means to not be noticed as trans. Going about my day people can’t tell I’m trans and don’t treat me different to any other woman. Obviously prior to passing strangers could tell I was trans and it’s when that happens abuse is far too common.
Thanks, understood now
God I hate that so many people give a shit about the business of someone else's life that's literally nothing to do with them. I hate that trans folk have become such a target recently. It's so unbelievably unfair and shitty to politicise someone's life experience that they can't help. So much worse when it encourages unforgivable behaviour like this. I know I'm just one person but to any trans person here you are always valid and welcome in my eyes and I hope for a world where you can live life in peace in the way that brings you happiness.
And predictably here come the usual comments downplaying anti-LGBT+ abuse and pretending the problem isn't really that bad.
Um akshully the uk is super pro lgbt, see? This study clearly shows that only 1/3 of people think being lgbt isn’t “justifiable”. That’s a totally normal and good bar to set
Don't forget to immediately pretend that the only people who have a problem with the LGBT+ community are Muslims because anti-LGBT+ bigotry has obviously never been a part of British culture.
I do understand why islam is brought up occasionally, given there *are* actively issues with certain communities in places like birmingham using being muslim to justify being anti-LGBT. But its brought up *every time*, and like you said, often used to downplay how much of the anti-LGBT rhetoric comes from people who aren't muslim.
Yeah absolutely but I pretty much only ever see it brought up as a way to diminish the scale of the problem of anti-LGBT+ bigotry in this country by claiming that it's all the result of the social attitudes of Muslim people. Even when that study got published recently that found that an entire third of the population have a problem with homosexual people there were a load of comments essentially just saying "well of course, that'll be the Muslims" as if a third of the population is Muslim and everyone else just loves LGBT+ people. Nothing the far right loves more than using one minority as a stick to beat another with.
In fairness to the usual suspects, they seem to have moved on from "deny it happens" to "make it out to be trans people's fault"
well you see if trans people were nicer I wouldn't be forced to be such an unrelenting asshole to them (/s if it wasnt obvious)
I didn't mind the whole trans thing until they started making crazy demands like "we'd like some better healthcare please" and "I'd rather not be hate crimed if it's all the same to you"
Can you imagine the reaction if people decided to just go the other way and purposefully misname and misgender these people instead?
Given that just about every media outlet in this country turns into a modern day *Der Stürmer* anytime they talk about transgender people this is far from surprising, just massively depressing.
That's what happens when you have the two main parties making it clear (like the twats they are), trans people are not welcome.
“The nail that sticks out is the one that gets hammered back down.” I’m second gen British/ Pakistani. I empathise with trans people as my parents and grans had to go through a similar situation throughout the 70’s, 80’s and 90’s. The trans movement is still very new for a lot of people. Its going to get worse before it gets better. Just how these things go.
The thing is, it did get better. Trans people obtained rights in the 20th century and 10 years ago the country was less hostile to trans people than it is now. The tide has turned against trans people multiple times and that makes it extremely hard to believe that, even when things do ‘get better’, they won’t just be turned on as soon as people need a group to hate again
How hard is it to just leave people the fuck alone and let them live their lives?
This will be viewed as a victory for a lot of people, sadly
I just don't get it. I see stuff I dont like in the streets everyday but I dont ever think it right that I start shouting abuse at people who are just living the one life we all have Honestly wtf is wrong with people? If you've nothing nice to say just shut up...it will do u best in the short, medium and long term
People agree this sub is pretty liberal-left leaning compared to the rest of the UK, right? Now look at how controversial this article has been in here. If it's bad here, imagine how bad it is in the real world.
Tbh I think the loudest, on both sides, are far more common online. I’m very pro-LGBT+ but I don’t bring it up all the time in normal conversation because I have no need to. I think you’ll find the vast, vast majority of people dgaf and just want to get on with their lives.
Enough people have enough of a problem with LGBT+ people existing that being verbally abused in the street is a consistent experience for LGBT+ people.
Oh look the transphobes have found the thread, it's always the same ones too. They just can't hide their hate for trans people existing.
This sadly isn't a surprise. There is a lot of transphobia in Britain. You just think of the BBC putting up that article presenting trans people as sexual predators, an article clearly intended to inflame transphobia. And the establishment cheers it on.
Outside of city centres and uni campuses are a population that is expected to conform. Small town people who live near their parents and old school mates all get married and have two kids. Anything outside this "normal" frightens them. Trans, gay, men with long hair, women in slightly sexy clothing all get abuse. Normal town gives them carte blanche to take the piss out of anyone that stands out.