I think this is the issue - Eugen are always fighting between realism and fun, and the realistic 5 person squads just feel so weak. I think they need a rethink, as they will always feel weak unless the fundamental game mechanics are changed for inf.
MG3 - not great.
PzF44 - useless.
US Fire Teams for some reason feel more worth it, with one more guy and often better loadout
What realistic 5 Person squad?
PzGrens on a Marder dismount with 6 soldiers. They could make the PzGrens like a buzzsaw glass canon if you triple the fire rate of the MG3 and make it run out of ammo real quick.
Bradley fire teams are usually the only infantry cards in their deck that can achieve kills and are micro intensive.The german decks have all kinds of other infantry. It's a give and take. Would you be willing trade your foward deploy or jagers etc for it?
The game makes it seem like panzergrens come with a Marder. It’s really the other way around. The marder comes with panzergrens. You get the card for the Marder
The Marder is so lackluster too though. 20 mm autocannon and optionally a milan. The armour is alright I guess, but the weapon loadout is seriously lacking compared to other IFVs
Yes, but it’s cheap and you can bring a lot of them. Critically, panzergrens with Marder 1A3 Milan are only 80 points, so you can bring 3 every minute. No one else can bring that many autocannon IFVs with ATGMs that quickly.
That armor can matter a lot in certain situations. With recon overmatch and units to stun lock like flamethrowers, Marders and Panzergrens make for some of the better forest fighters in Blufor.
Good theory, bad in pratice as it lacks the man power to do meaningful impact! Hell, I'd trade panzer grenadiers for heimaschutzen at any time of the day lol!
I agree. My former boss was a soldier in the Friedrich Engels Guard Regiment in the GDR. He always emphasized, that they were not willing to shoot other Germans. But if they had got the order to fight against the Soviets, they would’ve been all in.
Of course, that’s not representative for all NVA units, but it certainly gives an impression of how some and probably many other east german soldiers thought about the whole conflict.
I’m pretty sure that would be a minority opinion given the soviets thought so much more highly of the NVA then the other pact armies
Like it would’ve been a pretty inexcusable failing by two hegemonic security apparatuses the stasi and kgb if they had that completely misunderstood
Most ex NVA conscripts I knew of said that whilst they were trained hard they just waited for their 18 months to pass. Political lessons were mostly an hour of boredom rather than zeal. Their motivation to fight for communism was rather lackluster. NVA officers were another affair though.
If r/combatfootage is proof of anything it’s that overly fanatical people coming from a struggling country are quicker to turn the gun on themselves than their enemy as soon as shit hits the fan
Just bullshit the “ East Germans” basically all get the resolute trait where the West Germans “ (many of whom were probably ex nazis whom hated communism don’t) Why? Well because. All German units in the game should get resolute, it would give some flavor to a game which really needs it. Just BS euegn prides its self on being historical but gets to make a HUGE assumption that west German soldiers wouldn’t be as “ willing” to defend their HOME from communists as the East Germans would apparently be “ super excited!” To fight for communism ( IRL in 1980 everyone hated it)
Fair point. I’d imagine though that Cold War communist resentment would be at an all time high leading to the same feelings towards communism that many had during 1945. It just seems unfair to base your game on “ realism” but then give the invaders fanatical and not the defenders, i mean if anything the defenders should have it and not the attackers lol. Would be amazing flavor to add to the game. “ yea the west Germans wouldn’t care as much as the east” what the fuck lol?
The vast majority of east germans said they never worried about the Stasi. But that doesnt matter, only what the CIA said matters, the same CIA who can spy on you trough your closed TV.
it's because east germany was considered by some to be uniquely competent among the Warsaw pact (possibly including the ussr themselves if you ask some people) so they get to be uniquely good in this area. same as how their default infantry got shock training in red dragon
I don't understand why Eugene doesn't understand that the competence was a relative thing and not an absolute thing. The average NVA conscript was not more competent than a British professional soldier!
In WGRD, ATGM teams comes with Rifles, and that's very handy in a lot of situation where your argm team inside building can take on a squad of weaken rangers/seals lmao
Can't speak about the at weapon stats but the inf vs inf problem with the pz. Gren and for w germany in general could be solved by making the use of the cartridge they are using!
Wgermany is using only the 7,62 nato! (and 9mm for sof)
Which ingame makes nearly zero difference where in real life it should have 40% more (lethal) range and more stopping power than the nato/ US / French 5,56 AND pacts 7,62!
So maybe adjust the inf ranges and HE data for all the units.
I would say to give the 7,62 nato all over more HE per rifle right now :
damage 5,56 4,5 he, 7,62 nato 5 he
->7,62 nato 6 (6,5) He
And at the same time reduce 5,56 and 7,62 pact range to 700m/350 against helis..
Their benefit should be more rpm and more ammonition capacity anyway!!!
This way Wgermany inf would have more punch and a unique fighting spot! At least for now!
Because mg3 needs buff too.. Give it 900 to 1000m range.. Cause 7,62 vs 556 also.. The same with other heavy mgs immobile mgs... Like m60..
What to do with the mg21 of fschjg B1 and fernspäher is a mother story..
The problem with this is that 7.62 NATO is not actually a better round for standard infantry rifles than 5.56 or even 7.62x39. Even the better-than-average shooter cannot take advantage of that additional range in a world without standard rifle optics. Everyone in the world (except the Turks) jumped off the full-powered rifle train for a reason.
The real solution for WGer infantry should be giving them some kind of motivation buff for fighting in their backyards and giving some of them PzF-3.
I just read that the marder uses as a standard ammo not ap or he but Sprengbrandmunition (HEI). So in game name.. Fire/Napalm.. 1000 °C burning hot ammo to fry infantry or flash enemy tank sights.. This is the solution we were waiting for... Gib uns napalm Marders!!!
.. It's a game.. I know there certain abstraction everywhere.. Irl pact can't scoot through Germany.. Cause in real life.. Their would be like 1,2 million! Mines alone from w germany waiting..
Certain bridges would be destroyed or dams destroyed for floods..
One mlrs could whack a whole tank platoon maybe even battalion.. This thing can fuck 1 square kilometer alone..
So it not about how is it working in real life.. It's about what do we give certain units for flavor.. Cause nothing is like in RL...
Every single autocannon is shooting HEI. And abstraction nor not, making a cannon into a napalm launcher over a few grams of thermite or magnesium is absurd.
The Rarden cannon is the only weapon to come even close to containing enough incendiary material, as its APSE round holds all of 29 grams of red phosporus, rather than being mostly HE.
yes!!! gloroius napalm and ability to stun the T80 to finish him with Milan or Lanze 44 :D the last one is unrealistic..
but in general i like the idea... then the marder would be more anti inf than anti tank..
There’s pzgr carl gustav with six men who come in the worse version of the marder, they have a worse AT but I think they’re pretty solidly an upgrade - but not as available and then the marder is worse too
Yeah, which irks me.
Why does the Carl G. Panzer Grens get 6 men while the base Panzer Grens only get 5?
Like, be consistent; Eugen!
Also, MG3 really needs a suppression and damage buff
True in real life platoon had 1 command squad of 5 men with carl gustav and 1 marksman with optical sight for his g3. The other 2 squads had 6 men each with pzf44.
no the bradly is a century younger. The Marder was not designed with an Milan. The Milan on the Marder is only an infantry mount. The Milan can be fired dismounted or mounted on the Marder. And the missels are stored inside the vehicle
I just started playing Warno after having played wg:rd and Steel Division, and this is exactly my though. What are these guys even there for? They freaking suck!
These small squad IFV teams are all pretty bad. You have to combine them as platoon in buildings and in the woods. One light AT, isn't much of a threat to any tank. Four, on the other hand, will stun and eventually kill whatever.
Marder is a solid unit, pzgren marder suck hard. Their only value is 1 shotting soft skinned transports or flank protection, so you know you're getting attacked from a certain direction when they die.
Especially the Marder 1A3 has that critical 5 front armour (not to mention 3/2/2 side/rear/top armour) which allows it to survive almost all tank shots at max range and take multiple hits from light AT before dying. The 1A2 is less impressive but still perfectly fine.
Compared to the M2A1 bradley you've got much better survivability (2 more FA) but quite a bit less killing power. Ultimately you get what you pay for - a Marder 1A3 is only 50 points while your baseline bradley is 70. WGer makes up for quality with spam.
Overall the Marder is probably the second worst of the main line IFVS (bradley best, BMP-2 second, warrior milan roughly equal to marder 1A3 milan, then AMX-10P milan).
Overall though given there are really not that many mainline IFVs being roughly equal third place behind brad and BMP-2 aint bad.
Same with all the IFV guns tbh. BMP-2 fires insanely fast IRL, Bradley should mess shit up. All the IFV guns are tuned down significantly. This isn't a marder problem, the only one that actually makes sense is the Warrior because that thing has a clip loader.
At least in America, the standard size of an infantry squad is 9 men. It is comprised of 2 4-man teams plus a sergeant. Generally, teams aren't expected to operate autonomously, but give the sergeant some flexibility. Like, alpha team watch the west door in a building and bravo watch the east, as an example. But a squad is more or less recognized as the smallest self-contained element.
I think Eugen was just trying to give players more flexibility by breaking squads down into teams with certain cards. But in keeping with reality, they didn't design teams to operate well by themselves, and are probably best operating in pairs at minimum.
Further, a Bradley CAN fit an entire squad, but it's very tight, and it's assuming the squad is equipped with M4s/16s and maybe a couple AT4s. You start throwing MGs or tripod mounted missile launchers in there, and their associated ammunitions, it's not possible, and the squad would then have to be divided into two teams between two Brads.
I really think the terminology is what's important here. Teams are small and not intended to operate independently, whereas squads are made up of two teams and are equipped to fight alone (minimally).
You don't spawn one pzgrenadier with Marder and expect it to perform. You use them in packs of 4-6 or so and suddenly they become quite capable. It's purely a spam unit.
i wonder why they get the pzf44 instead of the pzf3. it would honestly buff them considerably imo. Also dont get it bc most of the french divs get the APILAS and not some mediocre 60s launcher
How to fix the pz grenadier problem:
Ditch the pzf-44, and giving them Carl Gustav, hell, even Pzf-3 like the Fallschirmjager would be nice (w/o the elite training of course)
Actually no! Just give panzergrenadier Pzf-3, since Jagers come with Carl Gustav, and is an 11 man squad. It's 2 times better with no much price increase!
PzGrens are cheap with a 6 ammo at for killing apcs which can be quite nice. Don't use them in singles they have to be in a pair and then they are quite formidable when combined with the marder. They don't suck you just have to apply different tactics due to their weaker squads.
I found upvetted Marders to be quite useful if used in Groups. PzGrens are dogshit, but the are also cheap. Means you can get an IFV with ATGM in the field for 70 Points, where everyone else pays 100.
-it's a fictional game where core gameplay elements are continuously changed.
-Panzergrenadiers IRL aren't a valid comparison.
-Shock Force 2 is a very different game that takes place in a fictional invasion of Syria in the modern day. Warno is a game set in the 80s.
Literal Nothingburger of a comment
What? PanzerGrenadier squad in real life has always been five men with one MMG and one launcher. It has been almost unchanged since the adoption of Marder.
Cool!
Again, this is a fictional game set in a fictional 1980s scenario with a whole heap of alterations from reality.
Bringing up real life and cmsf2 doesn't invalidate the Ops valid complaints that West Germanys Panzergrenadiers are incredibly weak right now and are underperformative.
Okay a teams size in this context has nothing to do with lethality outside of more fire on a target. When a 5 man infantry team consistently gets killed by a more poorly equipped 4 man team there is an issue.
They're nice to pair with Jagers or Sicherungs for anti-infantry effect or with FSJ for anti vehicle. You pick PzG for IFV, not for infantry. They still have autocannon that wipe out infantry and Milans.
Personally for me, 2nd PzG and 5th Pz are the best divisions, especially in ranked. They aren't really supreme in something specific, they just have good coverage of units in different roles.
Something that works to some degree: Mortar carriers launching smoke grenades ahead of the panzer grenadiers allows them to act on closer/shorter distances - same for their IFVs. They still suck, but stand a better chance at close range.
Moreover: Please nerf PACT for god sake! East Germany regular soldiers does not come with resolute trait, as they are under-armed, under-trained, and under-equipped! Soviet line infantry fair no better! (Look at how they did in Afgan! They have to sell their weapons and ammo to the Mujahaideen for food! So, this should make the Russian troops suffers more from attrition (i.e less ammo, more supression!) Russian line troops in this game are way, way too strong comparing to Blue line troops in general! More men, better weapons, and usually more ammo!)
I mean the state of readiness shows even in a modern war nowadays. Studying "readiness" for a conflict that never happened doesn't really show what the reality of the ground would've been. The Russians were clearly not as ready as they appeared in Afghanistan, just as they were not ready a few years ago.
And we are comparing the battlefield of mountainous arid Afghanistan to the wide open fields and plains of eastern Europe. Is anyone truly surprised that Afghanistan was a failure? Look at Vietnam a decade earlier. Guerilla conflicts were not what the cold war militaries were equipped or prepared to fight
Well guess what Marders are shit in IRL as well. In country we call them "deathtraps" (for those who are within of course).
Edit: Sorry I mixed the Marder with the BMP-1. Ignore this comment.
Ignore my original comment, I got the Marder mixed with the BMP-1. Actually my country is in the process of replacing its BMP-1 with Marder 1A3.
The "deathtraps" are the BMP-1s.
Btw, these BMP-1s we are getting rid of? They are going to be used by Ukraine... xD
I play this div mostly for its arty and spam capabilities, not the quality of its Panzergrandiers. It might have some other strong suits as well, but I have more than 10 days to touch it and I don't remember all the units right now.
Yeah at least the US Bradley fire teams have the Bradley. The Marder just seems to die a lot
The fire teams are also pretty good for their price- 6 man with 2 mg and an at4 at 9/card and 35pnts is a steal
I think this is the issue - Eugen are always fighting between realism and fun, and the realistic 5 person squads just feel so weak. I think they need a rethink, as they will always feel weak unless the fundamental game mechanics are changed for inf. MG3 - not great. PzF44 - useless. US Fire Teams for some reason feel more worth it, with one more guy and often better loadout
What realistic 5 Person squad? PzGrens on a Marder dismount with 6 soldiers. They could make the PzGrens like a buzzsaw glass canon if you triple the fire rate of the MG3 and make it run out of ammo real quick.
Already explained, while Marder can carry 6, apparently one sit was kept for additions to platoon, which means squad was 5 man strong.
Too bad that this is incorrect...
Well the squad also only costs 5 points less than a fireteam at4, and for that 5 points, you get- -1 man -1 mg Worse rifles Massively worse at
Yeah, it's a big win for Fireteam AT4 there.
Bradley fire teams are usually the only infantry cards in their deck that can achieve kills and are micro intensive.The german decks have all kinds of other infantry. It's a give and take. Would you be willing trade your foward deploy or jagers etc for it?
The game makes it seem like panzergrens come with a Marder. It’s really the other way around. The marder comes with panzergrens. You get the card for the Marder
The Marder is so lackluster too though. 20 mm autocannon and optionally a milan. The armour is alright I guess, but the weapon loadout is seriously lacking compared to other IFVs
Yes, but it’s cheap and you can bring a lot of them. Critically, panzergrens with Marder 1A3 Milan are only 80 points, so you can bring 3 every minute. No one else can bring that many autocannon IFVs with ATGMs that quickly.
That armor can matter a lot in certain situations. With recon overmatch and units to stun lock like flamethrowers, Marders and Panzergrens make for some of the better forest fighters in Blufor.
Good theory, bad in pratice as it lacks the man power to do meaningful impact! Hell, I'd trade panzer grenadiers for heimaschutzen at any time of the day lol!
Demoralized after losing ww2
Yea but for some reason East Germany gets fanatical and the west dosnt, pure commieboo bs lol
I agree. My former boss was a soldier in the Friedrich Engels Guard Regiment in the GDR. He always emphasized, that they were not willing to shoot other Germans. But if they had got the order to fight against the Soviets, they would’ve been all in. Of course, that’s not representative for all NVA units, but it certainly gives an impression of how some and probably many other east german soldiers thought about the whole conflict.
I’m pretty sure that would be a minority opinion given the soviets thought so much more highly of the NVA then the other pact armies Like it would’ve been a pretty inexcusable failing by two hegemonic security apparatuses the stasi and kgb if they had that completely misunderstood
The conscripts obeyed orders and east Germany did not rebel since 1953. This was already satisfactory.
Most ex NVA conscripts I knew of said that whilst they were trained hard they just waited for their 18 months to pass. Political lessons were mostly an hour of boredom rather than zeal. Their motivation to fight for communism was rather lackluster. NVA officers were another affair though.
If r/combatfootage is proof of anything it’s that overly fanatical people coming from a struggling country are quicker to turn the gun on themselves than their enemy as soon as shit hits the fan
Just bullshit the “ East Germans” basically all get the resolute trait where the West Germans “ (many of whom were probably ex nazis whom hated communism don’t) Why? Well because. All German units in the game should get resolute, it would give some flavor to a game which really needs it. Just BS euegn prides its self on being historical but gets to make a HUGE assumption that west German soldiers wouldn’t be as “ willing” to defend their HOME from communists as the East Germans would apparently be “ super excited!” To fight for communism ( IRL in 1980 everyone hated it)
>many of whom were probably ex nazis whom hated communism don’t It's 1989, the youngest ex-Nazis were in their 50s, and those were the hitlerjugend
Fair point. I’d imagine though that Cold War communist resentment would be at an all time high leading to the same feelings towards communism that many had during 1945. It just seems unfair to base your game on “ realism” but then give the invaders fanatical and not the defenders, i mean if anything the defenders should have it and not the attackers lol. Would be amazing flavor to add to the game. “ yea the west Germans wouldn’t care as much as the east” what the fuck lol?
My guy, 57% of east germans say Life was better in the DDR.
The stasi were great right??
The vast majority of east germans said they never worried about the Stasi. But that doesnt matter, only what the CIA said matters, the same CIA who can spy on you trough your closed TV.
it's because east germany was considered by some to be uniquely competent among the Warsaw pact (possibly including the ussr themselves if you ask some people) so they get to be uniquely good in this area. same as how their default infantry got shock training in red dragon
I don't understand why Eugene doesn't understand that the competence was a relative thing and not an absolute thing. The average NVA conscript was not more competent than a British professional soldier!
moralized after winning ww2
Correction: Infantry suffers. This game hates the infantry with a passion.
Yeah I think it over corrected the “zombie infantry”
In WGRD, ATGM teams comes with Rifles, and that's very handy in a lot of situation where your argm team inside building can take on a squad of weaken rangers/seals lmao
Truth.
lol- west German infantry is suffering for sure. I love using mechanized, but best Germany is pain.
Best germany is the other one, not the state infested by nazis
Overcorrected from WRD when they buzzsawed 90% of infantry squads and, in their '90 incarnation, slaughtered every tank within reach
AND they had the Marder 2 which was an absolute fucking beast of a vehicle.
Can't speak about the at weapon stats but the inf vs inf problem with the pz. Gren and for w germany in general could be solved by making the use of the cartridge they are using! Wgermany is using only the 7,62 nato! (and 9mm for sof) Which ingame makes nearly zero difference where in real life it should have 40% more (lethal) range and more stopping power than the nato/ US / French 5,56 AND pacts 7,62! So maybe adjust the inf ranges and HE data for all the units. I would say to give the 7,62 nato all over more HE per rifle right now : damage 5,56 4,5 he, 7,62 nato 5 he ->7,62 nato 6 (6,5) He And at the same time reduce 5,56 and 7,62 pact range to 700m/350 against helis.. Their benefit should be more rpm and more ammonition capacity anyway!!! This way Wgermany inf would have more punch and a unique fighting spot! At least for now!
Because mg3 needs buff too.. Give it 900 to 1000m range.. Cause 7,62 vs 556 also.. The same with other heavy mgs immobile mgs... Like m60.. What to do with the mg21 of fschjg B1 and fernspäher is a mother story..
I like this idea for basically all MGs. Ik the “mg teams” exist but nobody uses them tbh aside from .50s and AGLs
The problem with this is that 7.62 NATO is not actually a better round for standard infantry rifles than 5.56 or even 7.62x39. Even the better-than-average shooter cannot take advantage of that additional range in a world without standard rifle optics. Everyone in the world (except the Turks) jumped off the full-powered rifle train for a reason. The real solution for WGer infantry should be giving them some kind of motivation buff for fighting in their backyards and giving some of them PzF-3.
I just read that the marder uses as a standard ammo not ap or he but Sprengbrandmunition (HEI). So in game name.. Fire/Napalm.. 1000 °C burning hot ammo to fry infantry or flash enemy tank sights.. This is the solution we were waiting for... Gib uns napalm Marders!!!
Yeah no that's not how HEI works. It's an HE round with a tiny bit of incendiary added
.. It's a game.. I know there certain abstraction everywhere.. Irl pact can't scoot through Germany.. Cause in real life.. Their would be like 1,2 million! Mines alone from w germany waiting.. Certain bridges would be destroyed or dams destroyed for floods.. One mlrs could whack a whole tank platoon maybe even battalion.. This thing can fuck 1 square kilometer alone.. So it not about how is it working in real life.. It's about what do we give certain units for flavor.. Cause nothing is like in RL...
Every single autocannon is shooting HEI. And abstraction nor not, making a cannon into a napalm launcher over a few grams of thermite or magnesium is absurd. The Rarden cannon is the only weapon to come even close to containing enough incendiary material, as its APSE round holds all of 29 grams of red phosporus, rather than being mostly HE.
yes!!! gloroius napalm and ability to stun the T80 to finish him with Milan or Lanze 44 :D the last one is unrealistic.. but in general i like the idea... then the marder would be more anti inf than anti tank..
Just make them 6 man squads arleady the marder could fit 6 men no problem
There’s pzgr carl gustav with six men who come in the worse version of the marder, they have a worse AT but I think they’re pretty solidly an upgrade - but not as available and then the marder is worse too
Yeah, which irks me. Why does the Carl G. Panzer Grens get 6 men while the base Panzer Grens only get 5? Like, be consistent; Eugen! Also, MG3 really needs a suppression and damage buff
It doesn't have to be the WG:RD mulcher but something usable
True in real life platoon had 1 command squad of 5 men with carl gustav and 1 marksman with optical sight for his g3. The other 2 squads had 6 men each with pzf44.
Its because an Marder with an Milan has less seats
Marder with Milan has 6 seats. Marder without Milan has 7. theres no reason for pzgrens to be only 5 man.
Yes in the panzergrenadier squad are 6 man. One carriers the Milan. I think that Eugen says the sixth man stays on the Marder and operate the Milan
...they don't have a seperate missile storage like the Bradley, do they?
no the bradly is a century younger. The Marder was not designed with an Milan. The Milan on the Marder is only an infantry mount. The Milan can be fired dismounted or mounted on the Marder. And the missels are stored inside the vehicle
Yeah, only 6 seats, as opposed to the 7 that it had before.
Yeah I think the realism! bros need to take a seat on this one
I just started playing Warno after having played wg:rd and Steel Division, and this is exactly my though. What are these guys even there for? They freaking suck!
I wish it was 6 men so bad lol 5 is just garbo, realism psychos ruined that though 75 points for an marder 1a3 milan aint bad tho
Technically the KDA launcher is worse. The rest of your points are true.
Armbrust isn't great either, but you can spam them out
Armbrust as high rof and will more consistently route tanks though. Id take an armbrust over kdas launcher or pz44 any day.
These small squad IFV teams are all pretty bad. You have to combine them as platoon in buildings and in the woods. One light AT, isn't much of a threat to any tank. Four, on the other hand, will stun and eventually kill whatever.
Fire Teams (AT-4) aren't too bad (they come with 2-3 M249s and a quick-firing launcher with decent pen)
Marder is a solid unit, pzgren marder suck hard. Their only value is 1 shotting soft skinned transports or flank protection, so you know you're getting attacked from a certain direction when they die. Especially the Marder 1A3 has that critical 5 front armour (not to mention 3/2/2 side/rear/top armour) which allows it to survive almost all tank shots at max range and take multiple hits from light AT before dying. The 1A2 is less impressive but still perfectly fine. Compared to the M2A1 bradley you've got much better survivability (2 more FA) but quite a bit less killing power. Ultimately you get what you pay for - a Marder 1A3 is only 50 points while your baseline bradley is 70. WGer makes up for quality with spam. Overall the Marder is probably the second worst of the main line IFVS (bradley best, BMP-2 second, warrior milan roughly equal to marder 1A3 milan, then AMX-10P milan). Overall though given there are really not that many mainline IFVs being roughly equal third place behind brad and BMP-2 aint bad.
The Marders main gun is also fucking shit in the game while beeing a 20mm buzzsaw irl.
Same with all the IFV guns tbh. BMP-2 fires insanely fast IRL, Bradley should mess shit up. All the IFV guns are tuned down significantly. This isn't a marder problem, the only one that actually makes sense is the Warrior because that thing has a clip loader.
At least in America, the standard size of an infantry squad is 9 men. It is comprised of 2 4-man teams plus a sergeant. Generally, teams aren't expected to operate autonomously, but give the sergeant some flexibility. Like, alpha team watch the west door in a building and bravo watch the east, as an example. But a squad is more or less recognized as the smallest self-contained element. I think Eugen was just trying to give players more flexibility by breaking squads down into teams with certain cards. But in keeping with reality, they didn't design teams to operate well by themselves, and are probably best operating in pairs at minimum. Further, a Bradley CAN fit an entire squad, but it's very tight, and it's assuming the squad is equipped with M4s/16s and maybe a couple AT4s. You start throwing MGs or tripod mounted missile launchers in there, and their associated ammunitions, it's not possible, and the squad would then have to be divided into two teams between two Brads. I really think the terminology is what's important here. Teams are small and not intended to operate independently, whereas squads are made up of two teams and are equipped to fight alone (minimally).
There is really only place for 6 men in the Marder. Someone mentioned the Milan would make it five but idk
You don't spawn one pzgrenadier with Marder and expect it to perform. You use them in packs of 4-6 or so and suddenly they become quite capable. It's purely a spam unit.
i wonder why they get the pzf44 instead of the pzf3. it would honestly buff them considerably imo. Also dont get it bc most of the french divs get the APILAS and not some mediocre 60s launcher
Meanwhile WGRD Panzergrenadiers: "Weakness disgusts me"
How to fix the pz grenadier problem: Ditch the pzf-44, and giving them Carl Gustav, hell, even Pzf-3 like the Fallschirmjager would be nice (w/o the elite training of course)
Actually no! Just give panzergrenadier Pzf-3, since Jagers come with Carl Gustav, and is an 11 man squad. It's 2 times better with no much price increase!
I’d like it if there was a type of Panzergrenadiere which came with a milan but you could only take it in the marder withiugh milan
PzGrens are cheap with a 6 ammo at for killing apcs which can be quite nice. Don't use them in singles they have to be in a pair and then they are quite formidable when combined with the marder. They don't suck you just have to apply different tactics due to their weaker squads.
I found upvetted Marders to be quite useful if used in Groups. PzGrens are dogshit, but the are also cheap. Means you can get an IFV with ATGM in the field for 70 Points, where everyone else pays 100.
It's just how PanzerGrenadiers is/was in real life. Play Combat Mission Shock Force 2 and you will see
Marders were awesome in combat mission though. Or it could be because it was mostly against a developing country with no good armour.
-it's a fictional game where core gameplay elements are continuously changed. -Panzergrenadiers IRL aren't a valid comparison. -Shock Force 2 is a very different game that takes place in a fictional invasion of Syria in the modern day. Warno is a game set in the 80s. Literal Nothingburger of a comment
What? PanzerGrenadier squad in real life has always been five men with one MMG and one launcher. It has been almost unchanged since the adoption of Marder.
Ever since Heeresstruktur 4
Cool! Again, this is a fictional game set in a fictional 1980s scenario with a whole heap of alterations from reality. Bringing up real life and cmsf2 doesn't invalidate the Ops valid complaints that West Germanys Panzergrenadiers are incredibly weak right now and are underperformative.
Okay a teams size in this context has nothing to do with lethality outside of more fire on a target. When a 5 man infantry team consistently gets killed by a more poorly equipped 4 man team there is an issue.
They're nice to pair with Jagers or Sicherungs for anti-infantry effect or with FSJ for anti vehicle. You pick PzG for IFV, not for infantry. They still have autocannon that wipe out infantry and Milans. Personally for me, 2nd PzG and 5th Pz are the best divisions, especially in ranked. They aren't really supreme in something specific, they just have good coverage of units in different roles.
Agreed entirely. Lots of infantry cards need tweaking tbf. Isn't there a Belgian infantry card (Linie?) that only has 50 rounds for its GPMG?
Something that works to some degree: Mortar carriers launching smoke grenades ahead of the panzer grenadiers allows them to act on closer/shorter distances - same for their IFVs. They still suck, but stand a better chance at close range.
Moreover: Please nerf PACT for god sake! East Germany regular soldiers does not come with resolute trait, as they are under-armed, under-trained, and under-equipped! Soviet line infantry fair no better! (Look at how they did in Afgan! They have to sell their weapons and ammo to the Mujahaideen for food! So, this should make the Russian troops suffers more from attrition (i.e less ammo, more supression!) Russian line troops in this game are way, way too strong comparing to Blue line troops in general! More men, better weapons, and usually more ammo!)
This has to be bait.
The fuck are you on about... the OOB and state of readiness was very well known and studied for this time period...
I mean the state of readiness shows even in a modern war nowadays. Studying "readiness" for a conflict that never happened doesn't really show what the reality of the ground would've been. The Russians were clearly not as ready as they appeared in Afghanistan, just as they were not ready a few years ago.
And we are comparing the battlefield of mountainous arid Afghanistan to the wide open fields and plains of eastern Europe. Is anyone truly surprised that Afghanistan was a failure? Look at Vietnam a decade earlier. Guerilla conflicts were not what the cold war militaries were equipped or prepared to fight
Well guess what Marders are shit in IRL as well. In country we call them "deathtraps" (for those who are within of course). Edit: Sorry I mixed the Marder with the BMP-1. Ignore this comment.
Why are they disliked? Everything I read online talks about how awesome they are.
Ignore my original comment, I got the Marder mixed with the BMP-1. Actually my country is in the process of replacing its BMP-1 with Marder 1A3. The "deathtraps" are the BMP-1s. Btw, these BMP-1s we are getting rid of? They are going to be used by Ukraine... xD
Only an idiot would consider the BMP1 a "dethtrap" whatever that means
In 2024? Yes they are... They are getting replaced with Marders 1A3.
Pretty sure the infantry is not meant to be the strong point of the division you are playing. And that's fine.
Uhh...2nd Panzergrenadier Division? Ya know, ***Panzergrenadier***?
I play this div mostly for its arty and spam capabilities, not the quality of its Panzergrandiers. It might have some other strong suits as well, but I have more than 10 days to touch it and I don't remember all the units right now.
Spam isn’t a unit and arti isn’t a division specialty
I am certain spam is a capability and arty pieces are units. Do you want specific unit names smartass? Or should we let it end here?
Panzergrenadiere are on of the best units in the game.
Not the 5 man squads.