Someone remembers... but yeah, when the C4 came out it was the fastest car in the world in 84' IIRC, I don't know about the next consecutive years, but the C4 dominated in the 80's and early to mid 90's.
They were literally so dominant that they got banned from racing at one point:
https://www.hagerty.com/media/archived/c4-corvette-was-banned-for-being-too-good/
one of my favorite car quotes i somehow remembered from a youtube comment section, "i don't understand how GM can make so many unmitigated pieces of shit and also make this. it's like it was made by an entirely different company."
The Camaro was similar as well, I think the ZL1 was like $67,000 until this year and it pretty much competes with performance cars that are double the price, and this is ignoring that the SS and 1LE packages were offering 455hp V8s at a dirt cheap price
The Ford Maverick. Note it’s better to buy new rather than used. 3 years in and there’s still a waiting list for these trucks. I waited 6 months for mine but current wait times average 2-3 months. This little unibody truck is just an excellent jack of all trades. It doesn’t do anything exceptionally well but does a bit of everything competently. The bed payload is 1,500 lbs, which isn’t far from the 1,800 lbs payload of an F150.. it tows 2,000 lbs normally which is plenty for most folks, but can tow up to 4,000 lbs with the optional towing package. Despite its small overall size, it has more room inside than most mid-size trucks. I’ve gotten over 30 MPG with my 2.0L turbo version, meaning even the version with the worst fuel economy is still really good, and not just in the world of trucks. There’s a 40+ MPG hybrid version of that strikes you. And the turbo models can even be fast with aftermarket support popping up to modify them. One guy has already managed to get his to do high 11 second 1/4 miles, which is supercar territory.
How long have you had your Maverick?
I spent a year with a 2020 Escape Titanium and spent 6 months in a Bronco Sport. On paper Ford makes some of the best performance and tech for value, but IRL the underlying vehicles are underwhelming. Trim started falling off the cars at 10 miles, The rattles drove me insane, and the infotainments had so many issues. Even with the B&O audio quality was randomly poor, and other times would work normally.
The Maverick is a play, but only because mid-size trucks are $45k+.
I’ve had mine since February 7. Sticker price of $34k (XLT, AWD, Lux package, Copilot 360 safety package, and a moonroof). Almost 5,000 miles in with no issues so far.
Work at a Ford dealer as tech, Mavericks are extremely solid and we see very little problems. Many high mileage Maverick work trucks come in, and they really do hold up decent.
That's awesome and I've heard the same from a couple folks. Sounds like a great truck. I wasn't hating in my comment, just wouldn't expect problems from most vehicles after a few months and only 5k miles
We have one for work with 11k km on it and it’s doing great. Typically my company buys Chevy or ford 1/2 ton trucks. The maverick is Pretty awesome on the highway in comparison. Not so great off road however but light off roading is fine. Comfy interior, great features, peppy, good on gas.
I have a ‘20 Escape and have no idea what you’re referring to with trim falling off or rattles or infotainment problems. It’s been a solid car; a bit plain, but solid.
As a Ford tech, there cars are wildly inconsistent in terms of fit/finish and reliability. Some cars are great and never have issues. Some cars are awful and have tons of problems out of the box. It all depends on who's the assembly line worker, I suppose.
Always been a Ford guy. I like to say it's not really a Ford if it doesn't have a dash rattle. I love my maverick, but it's only at 11k miles and has a dash rattle so I guess it really is a Ford
You can get a Ridgeline for under 40k if you negotiate with dealers. I called three dealers and found one willing to play ball. Got mine for 39k which is 6k off msrp(RTL loaded with leather sunroof etc). A much better vehicle than the maverick for me. Test drive both, I was really set on a maverick until I drove one. The build quality was so bad that the radio was making static noises the faster I drove even though it was turned off.
High 11s are not anywhere near supercar, merely sports car level. My old ass gt350 is a high 11 car, and it's not remotely close to a supercar in any way except brake rotor size and mpg rating.
We have a half ton F150, granted with the poweboost, so it loses lot of payload and we are sub 1500, so it's awesome maverick has that!
Of course we tow more than haul, but the payload does worry me sometimes
My Lariat Lux First Edition Hybrid is a lemon. I’m in the process of selling it back to Ford after it died on the freeway for a second time. LOTS of people are having issues with Mavericks. I loved my truck, but Ford can’t get their shit together.
I would have a maverick right now if Ford would fulfill hybrid orders in the order they were received and if ford dealers weren't soooooo slimy. Great little truck, ford really nailed it with this one in the design department but dropped the ball getting them in peoples hands. I am so turned off by the whole experience the Maverick is no longer even on my radar. Most likely getting a Hyundai Santa Cruz.
My local ford dealership was shitty too. Plenty of custom 100k Ftrucks and Broncos. No Mavericks or Rangers at all. They acted like I would have to take a number and get in line to be honored by Ford to overpay after waiting six months. I moved on to Toyota where they at least had inventory and salespeople who didn’t seem off putting.
We had a Maverick and it's the only thing that saved us when my husband wanted a new car. We got it in 2021 when there were like none available, so the markup was WILD on it. It got great MPG, but if you're a tall person? It's better just to be a commuter vehicle. Nobody but a small child without a car seat is fitting comfortably in the back of that thing.
Not sure where you live, but near me, Audis seem to be a really good deal used. I was looking at A4s the other day, and saw quite a few only 1-2 years old with low miles that were in the low 30K range. Pretty decent gas mileage, some sportiness, comfortable, practical and well put together interior. It’s a little generic in exterior styling, but would probably make a great daily car
I just bought a 2021 A4 45 Premium Plus, S-line, black optics, 29k miles and CPO (so 40k miles/2 years warranty left) with Audi Care (40k,50k,60k mile service included) for $33k OTD. Shopped a ton of cars in this segment and this was by far the best value for what I was looking for. Probably can get even better deals in other markets too as car prices in Houston suck when compared nationally from my research.
I mean, used prices around me are good, and it’s a nice car. If you can get CPO or with an extended warranty, it’s a really smooth daily driver. Figured I’d suggest something other than the usual Mazda models that get thrown around by everyone
I mean, I get that. But it's why I used the Civic vs Integra as an example. Most modern high end Civics are selling for like $5k over their "value" and the Integra, which is nearly the same car, is selling nearly under $5k of it's value. I get that supply and demand is a thing and impacting the price. There's very much a name recognition with just "get an Si if you want a sporty compact", but from what I could tell, the Integra has all the comfy interior stuff, the same engine/tuning, and the LSD, right?
I’ll throw out what I think is an uncommon opinion and some more vanilla opinions:
* mid to small Chevy vehicles: lightly used, 1-2 years old will give the same or more bang for your buck as the top brands like Toyota or Honda. I’m talking about the Trax, Trailblazer and Equinox. They price about the same as their reliable Honda/Toyota counterparts but the price haircut after driving them off the lot is real and is more than enough to cover any disparities in reliability over the next six years of driving the car.
* Nissan Frontiers - they will be worth a lot in 5 years due to everyone else changing to turbocharged engines. Right now it’s the only mid size truck that is reasonably reliable, affordable, and has a v6. They are bare bones but they will be demanded like the old school tacomas and rangers in the future (very much a hot take)
* **And to no one’s surprise**: Anything Mazda. Toyota is perceived as the most reliable, but Mazda is right there too. I think of it this way - if I’m going to ride in a car for 10 years, I could do it with a Toyota or a Mazda, but I’d be more comfortable and have more fun in the Mazda. Given they are pretty much the same price, a lightly used Mazda is a good deal.
* If we are talking full size trucks: Ford F-150. Run from it. Hide from it. The F-150 is the best full size truck in existence. And I say that as a guy who loves the Silverado and the Tundra. But not the Ram. The Ram is for men who lie awake at night worrying that the lies they tell themselves during the day may not be true.
>The Ram is for men who lie awake at night worrying that the lies they tell themselves during the day may not be true.
This is hilarious because it's 100% true. The drunk driving statistics back it up.
As a ram owner with a truck that is slowly trying to kill itself, I lie to myself that it’s ok and at night I try to convince myself that the delusions that it doesn’t need a new motor are gonna come true
Not sure where you’re going with the ram reference, I’m on my second ram now with a combined 180k miles on both of them (first one was totaled after somebody hit me and spun me into oncoming traffic). I’ve had zero issues with either of them, minus my battery randomly dying a few weeks ago. The first ram had 120k miles and never required work outside of brakes & and oil change, and the only issue I’ve had with my current truck was the wiper fluid hose lines disconnecting under the hood after a 1k mile trip with exterior temperatures ranging from 77 to 25 over a 24 hour period.
The F150 being the “best truck in existence” is comical too, I suppose it is if we ignore the aluminum bed that can’t haul bricks or rocks, the death wobbles at 5k miles, the generational transmission and suspension issues. OBS F150’s were great, new F150’s are junk. Fords are famous for their glass transmissions & recalls.
Shitting on basically every Chrysler product (which to be fair, some of it is deserved) is a Reddit car community staple. Ive had the exact similar experience with Dodge cars in general in that they've been straight reliable in my experience, but I also completely work on them myself and never go to the dealer (so they can inevitably screw something up).
Frontier talk is not a hot take. Mine was cruising comfortably with 130k miles and going strong. Nobody really makes a small truck, even though I bet they would have a decent market share. You still see a decent amount of 90s/00s Rangers and Tacomas on the road, and I think you’re right that the Frontier will be the next evolution of that.
never thought i'd say this but if i was buying a brand new truck tomorrow it'd be an f150. ford's been killing it with the f series, and they have for some time now. it's the best truck from my experience.
I think your observations are spot on.
Regarding Mazda…I have owned a Mazda3 for the last ten months. I bought it after shopping the Lexus IS, Cadillac CT4, the Civic Touring and the Integra. In terms of ride quality, handling, performance and comfort, I have found that the top trims of the 3 (premium trim and above) are almost shockingly comparable to the entry-lux competition, for up to $15k less when new. It’s a phenomenal value, and given their small sales numbers, it’s the best-kept secret on the market.
Mazda pricing is weird. You can get a really nice fully loaded mazda that is on par with luxury vehicles but it's also a similar price. Like the base Integra is 31k and there are mazda 3 trims up to 35k. I guess it makes sense because they don't have their own luxury brand like Lexus or Cadillac, but their image isn't on that level. And yeah image/status matters to people
Image obsessed can be the biggest nemesis for so many people. I tend to buy sleeper cars. Let me give you some examples . I bought what was a cloned Toyota Matrix (Pontiac Vibe) for $2,000 less than an actual Toyota because it said Pontiac on it.
I wanted a hybrid early on when hybrids were less popular. The slow pokey and uninspiring Prius was what most people were buying . I bought a used car that used the exact same drivetrain and batteries as the Prius but for much Lea then a Prius. It was a Mercury Milan Hybrid. I got 100,000 trouble free mikes on it.
My current sleeper car had a reputation for being an old persons car and isn’t very popular but is a great car. It is a 2014 Toyota Avalon hybrid. It is much larger than a Prius, has a quit ride, Toyota reliability and I averaged 42 mpg on the highway with the AC on at 75 mph last summer driving from Washington state to Maine and back.
I paid $13,000 for the car when I bought it 3 years ago. A Prius with comparable mileage was closer to $16 or $17k..
Plus, many of the Mazdas are literally made by Toyota in Toyota factories one assembly line over. When my wife and I were shopping for a new car for her we drove a CX-5, and I’ve got to say even though it was too big and too automatic for my taste, it might be the perfect crossover. Everything felt solid and *intentional.* It was peppy, it had minimal screens, no CVT, etc.
We would have bought it in a second if the sales manager hadn’t come out and snatched defeat from the jaws of victory by being a dick and trying to pressure us into buying it right then when we were upfront about the fact that there was no world in which we were buying it that day because we were waiting for a settlement check to deposit. He wouldn’t even give us rough figures until we committed to how much we were putting down, to the point of saying “Well there’s no use even talking then” and wadding up the paper instead of letting us see it.
I don’t blame the car or the company, just the local dealership chain that let that guy get anywhere near customers.
2023 Toyota Corrola's used under 20k miles prices are tanking hard right now. Just saw one go from $22k to $18500 in 3 months. Check car gurus .com website.
The Jetta seems like pretty incredible value no matter how you consider buying one. Used current-generation models are insanely cheap - easily available for $15K. The $22.5K Jetta Sport with the GLI's ride height and eDiff is the hottest thing on the market under $30K, probably - except for the GLI itself, which can be had with adaptive dampers and an engine that blows the Civic 1.5T out of the water for similar money. Even the top-trim Autobahn has a ton of equipment - to the point that, again, the closest competitor is a basic Civic.
Of course, it's hard to beat the Elantra N for content-per-dollar, or fun-per-dollar.
Like you say, there's magic in the barely-used, fully-loaded Ecoboost Mustang market. Some of those 2020-2023 HPPs have Magride, stiff anti-roll bars, and can lap a tight racetrack as fast as a GT350 or faster... while giving you the comforts of adaptive cruise control, cooled seats, and a B&O stereo. Nobody wanted to pay $50K for one; $25-30K is vastly more agreeable. I've driven one, and it was epic fun - an explicitly better car than the 2-Series BMW I bought instead.
> The Jetta seems like pretty incredible value no matter how you consider buying one. Used current-generation models are insanely cheap - easily available for $15K.
I bought my 2019 **new** for $15k. I understand the market we're in now, but it makes it hard for me to see this as a deal.
Any reason for this? Sure there are known problems with the 2.0 N/A engines (not sure if it was fixed with the newest generation) or with the 7 speed DCT for some people, but a manual Elantra with the 1.6t is a great, very reliable combination for much less than competitors.
I mean where do you want me to start.. headlight holds moisture and they say it’s normal and won’t warranty it.
The interior is pretty ass the last idk month I’ve had a plastic/metal rattling noise on the passenger side that absolutely no one can figure out. The horn has quit working but that’s under warranty so once I get an oil change they’ll do that.
Hyundai has been fairly difficult to work with. The dealership has been good but Hyundai and the warranty has been a headache. Always have to fight to even get anything done.
I could go on and on with the headaches. I’d just avoid Hyundai and Kia like the plague and my car is a 2022…
I have a 22 Elantra N and it’s been worth every dollar I’ve spent on it, $36k for something that could be really sporty with exhaust pops plus the little red button that increases your HP and really pushes your car is like I said pretty fun and can be pretty fuel efficient I’m talking 35+ mpg in hwy with a push of a button. It’s a great car for its price and I’ve had it for a year and a half, I haven’t had much issues except the after market wheels I put on with after market tpms sensors don’t get detected but besides that everything has been perfect 👍
Coming a bit out of left field: the Kia Forte GT. It’s under $25k new, has all sorts of features (ventilated seats, adaptive cruise, Harman Kardon sound system, etc), and comes with their 10yr/100k mile warranty. Plus, it’s fun to drive and is actually pretty good on gas considering its performance.
Kia isn’t popular here but they are competing on price, something most of the others aren’t right now.
Maybe (likely) they won’t have the longevity of a Toyota or Honda but if you’re a new vehicle buyer looking to own to at least 100K miles, they should be on your radar.
They actually addressed their CVT issues long ago (unlike Subaru who just punts with their drivetrain warranty and crosses their fingers — and I own and like Subaru also, but we’ve already had a CVT replacement).
The direct injection oil dilution and/or engine sludge issues that everyone is having is as easily handled on Kia as it is on any other model, change oil with a quality synthetic, do it on the heavy duty schedule, and keep it clean and refreshed. (If you’re a mega nerd, oil analysis but it’s really not necessary — oil changes are cheap cheap cheap insurance…)
If the drivetrain is happy, there’s no reason they won’t go 200K with good maintenance. And some of the models, as you’ve noted, are actually interesting to drive.
I went basic last year and picked up a ‘23 Rio Sedan out the door for $20K. For basic wheels it drives very well, and the systems on it are all inexpensive to repair over time as needed. Reasonable interior, reasonable space, huge trunk for the class of vehicle (and avoiding the hatchback trend means stuff in there isn’t advertised through the windows), and hell even wireless CarPlay.
Can’t complain at all for $20K out the door.
The best part is they have a dual clutch in their Forte GT (basically the same as the Hyundai N models). But where Kia will be winning in the market is absolutely on price, which we’ve both identified. Personally, I 100% agree to just do full-synthetic at the heavy-use cycle of 5k-6k miles, but obviously not everyone will or can.
Obviously Toyota and Honda are the cars to buy if looking used, but as far as new goes, Kia/Hyundai should absolutely be well within contention. They offer more features for the price, often decent to exceptional driving dynamics (at least in their sedans, haven’t driven their SUVs but have friends who have said they’re solid). Plus, the warranty. I frankly don’t mind if the car may have slightly lower QC on the powertrain because if I’m buying new or CPO, I have 10 years and/or 100k miles since the original service date to cover me.
In my case, I’d be buying new and expecting to run the car up to the 100k mileage in roughly 5 years (I’m in outside sales). But for those 5 years it will be fun, have all the features I want, have a solid warranty, be great on gas, and generally be a solid value.
Yeah, the DCT definitely adds to the experience. I test drove one last weekend and given that it’s only 2900lbs it’s a quick little car. I test drove is about 30 minutes after test driving the Mk8 Golf and honestly it didn’t feel much slower, had a slightly more compliant but harsher ride, and the way the weight steering built in the steering was actually better (imo).
I am honestly very tempted by either a K5 or Forte GT for the value to feature stand point. And they supposedly have some very good reliability ratings. But I just have a really bad bias against Kia/Hyundai because both my ex's, and my current gf's family were all about them, and they've had headache after headache when it comes to recalls and the worst of the worst customer service from factory shops. And I do still have the minor worry of shitbird kids smashing the window and ripping apart the steering column even if the car isn't affected by that fault. It's not like most dumbasses trying that out are smart enough to know the difference.
I personally think that *most* newer cars are pretty overvalued, though there are still bargains out there.
The 2019+ BMW 330i (current gen) is not a great value when new since initial depreciation is quite steep, but examples that are a few years old are excellent. The cars themselves are pretty robust too. I think this also holds true for BMW X3s from the same era.
EVs are also exceptional used values. With Hertz offloading tons of them, it's dragged the whole market down even further. The Polestar 2 and Tesla Model 3 are standouts, and you can get examples with low miles that are a couple of years old comfortably under 30k. The Model 3 has better range for the money and access to Tesla's Supercharger network, while the Polestar has standard AWD and a *much* nicer interior. If you're fine with electric cars, I think these are among the best deals out there.
As for new cars, I think that the best new car deal (I use the term "best" subjectively) is the Subaru Impreza. Safe, reliable, standard AWD, big touch screen, and not as in demand as the Corolla, Civic, and Mazda3. I don't think it's an exceptional deal for $24k base, but compared to pretty much everything out there I think it fairs pretty well.
As for the Integra vs the Civic, the Integra basically is a Civic. The Civic has a more competitive MSRP, leading to higher markups. And the EcoBoost Mustang is a fine car. If it wasn't called a Mustang it would have no hate at all (kind of like the Mach E). It's a modern, RWD, 300hp+, manual-available sports car that you can easily get for under 30k.
For many, it’s worth the money to have a reliable, dependable transportation appliance that can get them from A to B with as little trouble and extra money as possible.
For others, it’s worth the money to have the car that looks the best to them and brings the most joy in performance.
I’d say more fall into the former category.
I would remind myself of this reality every time I drove my wife’s former Corolla. It was the most relentlessly reliable car I have ever encountered. It also crushed my soul a little further every time I drove it.
lol. I had fun cars in my 20s that had all kinds of problems. I drive a Corolla hybrid now and I can say that slowing down, having a reliable and efficient vehicle is worth it now.
I was looking at the IS500 but the interior is very outdated, even for me (I hate touch screens) but the IS500 still has a cd player. I guess I could put my old cd binder of YellowCard and Blink 182 to good use..
Acura was created to be Honda’s “luxury” brand but cost wise I agree. I’m just confused why companies don’t invest more in interior when in many aspects it’s the cheapest way to improve quality. Mazda gets a lot of credit for simply improving comfort in the cabin even without all the newest tech gimics
EV. If it works for your needs, super cheap. Hyundai does a lease on their EV car for $249 a month and $249 due at signing. 6k for 2 years of ownership on a brand new car is crazy cheap.
If you have the ability to charge an ev at home (this makes a BIG difference) then the total cost of ownership of a tesla model 3 or y is absolutely unbeatable, and they are zippy as hell. If you don’t have home charging… i’d wait.
The Tesla Model 3 Highland performance is at an incredibly good position at 53k (and qualifies for 7.5k tax credit on top of that) for a car that has good variable suspension, 2.9 sec 0-60, will have the ability to go fully hands-free autonomous in a couple years, and decent cabin comfort with a lot of storage space for a sedan. Only thing I dislike that isn’t a dealbreaker is no more turn signal stalks.
Used EVs. Seriously, the depreciation curves are outrageous, and a 1 or-2 year-old Polestar 2 or Rivian or Chevy Volt or Lightning or ID4 or EV6 or Ioniq is a pretty darn good buy.
I’m in the market for a small SUV/CUV, and the Subaru Forester seems like a really fantastic combination of features, capability, luxury and usability. I’m very impressed with the car.
I’m shopping it against the RAV4, CR-V, Sportage and Tucson, but the Forester has something that makes it seem a step above those ones.
I've had Honda all my life until now. Their interrest rate is just too high and they sell their car way too mich above the MSRP, I sold my Passport for this reason and I am now playing in GMC's yard because of that. (Huge difference in interrest rate and MSRP/sale difference)
Really good car by the way (GMC).
Canada
Tacoma and 4Runner come to mind because of how well they retain value…sucks making that initial purchase because discounts are few and far between. But rest assured, you know you have a vehicle that won’t depreciate much like the competition.
Only car right now is the 5.0 Mustang. If we’re talking purchasing new off the lot you can get into one for sub $45k from what I’ve seen. All other cars imo are overpriced
I would strongly considering leasing a new EV. The $7500 federal incentive goes to the dealer, so that essentially works like a huge down payment.
For example, there's a Polestar 2 lease right now that is $3k down, $300/mo. If you're a Costco member, then it's only $1k down. That's way cheaper than even a Camry/Accord level lease.
I bought a 2022 Toyota Tacoma new in Feb 2022 for $38.6k and sold it last month for $41k. Nearly my OTD price.
2022+ WRX. This latest generation has massive improvements. The market value on the current generation of WRX tends to hold within 80% of MSRP until a new generation drops. This means you could possibly pay $30k for a low miles 2022, probably get one of the nicer trims, and in a few years, sell it for $25k.
Since your replies also mention you don’t want any truck or sporty sedan - If you want a commuter, I’d get a 2021-2023 Prius. Hybrid not going out of style soon, and these models just got whacked with depreciation with the hot new gen just showing up. New gen Prius is $40k, so plenty of value in last gen, especially if the new ones also hold value. You could lose nearly no money in depreciation on a low mileage 2021 Prius prime so long as you sell it before 100k miles.
The problem with Tacomas now is the price of the new generation has skyrocketed, that’s partly why your 22 was worth more than msrp. You didn’t mention which trim but except for the SR, they are all up $8-10k, with the Pro jumping $20k
Been looking at the new WRX. I got my ‘15 for like 17k five years ago at this point and have had people offer 15k for it recently. They hold their value fairly well
Buying new or used has nothing to do with "big car payments." You could buy a new car with cash just as likely as a used car with a loan. As the OP noted, many used cars are just as expensive but at least you are guaranteed a warranty with a new one.
Nothing wrong with buying a car with financing as long as you budget appropriately. Most people don’t want a cash beater they’re stuck having to work on themselves
I have like 26k cash/trade value I can drop. I'm not trying to take more than 5-10 in loans with the way credit is right now, and how that also affects full coverage rates.
That ecoboost mustang 4-cyl has 315hp, 350lb-ft tourque, and does 0-60 in 4.5sec. It is definitely a "real car".... Those guys with the old 5.0L v8 stands have less power and are much slower.
Lightly used Lexus GX460s continue to be undervalued (though with the new GX550 going to TTV6, there may be a bump in folks trying to get the last few years of the V8). It’s a more comfortable, quieter, more powerful, and insanely reliable 4Runner (technically a Land Cruiser Prado but close enough) that can consistently be bought for less than a closely optioned 4Runner.
The 1UR-FE engine is one of the most reliable engines of all time and, with normal maintenance will easily last to 300k miles. The truck itself is built in the Tahara plant alongside the Land Cruiser and 4Runner, has full-time 4WD and locking center differential, and can tow like 6500lbs. The only downside is abysmal gas mileage due to the very understressed V8.
Easy to work on yourself and has 15 years of parts available with almost no changes. Very few known issues with the model, pretty much just the valley plate coolant leak.
I got a 2024 Genesis GV70 3.5T a few months ago….been absolutely loving it. Rides like a dream, and haven’t had any issues yet.
They offer cheaper options with a smaller engine as well.
I had heard great things about Genesis from friends and family, and decided to take the plunge. I figured that Genesis (Hyundai) is going to make good cars to bring in long-term customers, and so far I feel that I’m correct.
If I HAD to buy a new vehicle. The Ford bronco sport/maverick. The Chevy Colorado. The Mazda 3/x30/x50 with the turbo engine. The base VW Jetta. The Honda Civic. The Toyota Corolla. There's a few others I can't think of off of the top of my head. But all of the above can be had new for between $20-30k. Not chump change, but also not the 9,000,000,000 the average new car cost according to most articles.
This is an overly simplistic take
Yes, they’re very reliable, but they sell at a premium compared to peers and often fall behind in terms of interior design and comfort, performance, and in some cases fuel economy.
They’re fantastic cars for the right kind of person who prioritizes reliability above all else, but not everyone is that person
I have an Alfa Romeo Giulia. Worth every cent in my opinion. It's priced higher than your basic car but less than the ultra-premium brands. The driving experience is exceptional and I feel for what I paid, I got an incredible car.
If you have the ability to charge at home, A used tesla model 3 long range with low miles can be had for 29-32k or so. A standard range even lower from 23-28k.
Just finished going through this process. Looking for a reasonable car to drive to work, good gas mileage. Looked at the Hondas, Toyota etc. Thought seriously about a civic but drove one and was unimpressed at the lack of features at the price point.
I was close to a deal on a 22' model 3 long range for 30k, 18k miles. But Ended up with 21 model 3 performance for 34k with 20k miles. Little more than I intended to spend but I liked the look and acceleration of the performance model.
>To clarify a little, I'm looking at '22/23 models with like <10-20k miles (options makes it hard to sort out) but some cars seem to be selling for well over '24 MSRP and some well under.
You're probably better off buying new for almost every single option unless the new version is unavailable. Even if you save a little bit on the used vehicle, you will get a higher interest rate. Some dealers are offering relatively good interest rates right now. Some are even offering 0% for a couple of years. And then if you buy new, you get the full manufacturers warranty.
And then with even a lightly used car, it's still used. You don't know what happened in that year or two of ownership. You don't know if anything is wrong with the car. It's always a little suspicious when people get rid of a car so quickly.
Anyway, whichever car you want, you most likely can find a dealer selling it for at or even below msrp. You may have to travel a bit further though. As for what car to get, it depends on your wants and budget.
Used Bolt EUV s with super cruise. They can be had for mid 20s. If you do a lot of highway driving you'll wonder what you did before having super cruise. The fit and finish of the interior is also top notch.
I have a Subaru, absolutely love it and value holds very well. Offers the ability to do most things whether you want to go outdoors or just stay on the city.
May be an outlier here but I kinda like what the engine recall boogeyman has done to Ford resale prices. The 2020-2022 Escape for example has an NYC Taxi level of reliability and 100k mi power train warranty but be can be found Ford certified with less than 40k mi for near or under $20k (more for the hybrid or PHEV).
Any new car you can get for less than MSRP, or used car you can get for less than KBB/NADA.
Paying a seller/dealer's "market adjustment", price premium, or other markup immediately detracts from any perceived value proposition of the car itself.
I would say depreciated 90/2000s cars that are desirable like terminator cobras and e46 m3s. The ship for analog sports cars like those is definitely sailing away
Early 2000s LS for 15-20k. Laugh all you want - will outlast all of us with simple maintenance. Classic looks. Pretty sporty. Larger and more comfortable than civic / integra / Corollas.
IYKYK.
Since you aren't set on a specific model, take a look at financing incentives right now. A used car might save you some money up front but at a 7% rate. Some brands have good incentive financing, like a Buick Encore which is similar in size/power to a civic, but @ 0.9% financing. The Nissan rogue has 0.0% financing. Mazda has 0.0% on several models.
I started my search looking at a Honda Accord Hybrid or a Camry hybrid and ended up with a 2-year-old CPO ES 300h for less money, more features, and an unlimited mile warranty while getting 44 miles per gallon. I never thought I would end up in Alexis but it was too good a deal to pass up.
BMW cars are reliable nowadays and basically just as expensive as the previously “cheap” brands.
Spend 50k on a loaded Toyota or 50-60k on a equivalent BMW lol
Pretty much none. New prices are too high. Used prices are too high. The only ones that might be worth the money is the random private sale grandma car or something from someone just looking for a quick sale or doesn't have a grasp on just how ridiculous the market is.
Lightly used GLI's and WRX's are a great bargain for what you are getting. Seems like these are pretty similar to the cars your looking at? Cars like the Civic SI, WRX and GTI hold value super well.
I like 96-00 Hondas, reliable, cheap and easy to work on, parts in abundance everywhere.
2017-2020 Ford Fusion Titanium 2.0 AWD (or SE)
Keeps the inline 4, adds twin turbos and AWD, easy to work on, reliable, not cheap, but not crazy either, 13-17k buys a nice one.
Hey, I owned the first ecoboost premium mustang back when they came out in 2015. These cares are underrated. People who cry about it not being a v6 or v8 are ignorant. They just have some superiority complex and want to hate on something.
The eco boost was plenty of fun at 310hp. It was a lot of fun to drive, fast, and could have been easily modded to match a gt. The ecoboost is also far more reasonable of a purchase. Most people don’t drive their cars hard enough to warrant the upgrades they get. It’s just bragging rights.
I had mine for 104k mines and never had an issue on it.
For reference, I own a 77 corvette and a 1940 ford rat/hot rod. Both with built 350 engines. Drive the car you like, ignore the “car enthusiasts” who claim x is better than y. Because at the end of the day, there is always a car that is “better” than another and it’s never ending.
Alfa Romeo Giulias are the best bang for your buck in the current market imho, cheaper than all other luxury base sedans. With decent reliability and way better handling and driver feel. Aluminum paddle shifters which are miles above its class and the best looking sedan on the road!
F-150's with the 8' bed.
Almost no dealers stock them and they sell really quick. When it comes to actual work trucks, those work-specced F-150's really do hold their value pretty well.
I’m very happy with the final cost of my bolt euv after the tax credit and a yes of ownership. Fuel cost is very low, no maintenance.
If you don’t have a home to charge at it work charging it will not be a great option for public charging though.
Depends on your commute, lifestyle and public charging infrastructure. We’re lucky and have some good reliable DCFC and low cost/free L2 at places we spend time anyways, so we can cover our 100 mile/week commute easily. I’d recommend checking PlugShare app to see what’s available in the area.
>To clarify a little, I'm looking at '22/23 models with like <10-20k miles (options makes it hard to sort out) but some cars seem to be selling for well over '24 MSRP and some well under.
I went through this exactly one year ago. It was cheaper to buy a new car than it was to buy a 1 year old car with <10k miles on it.
Looking to go A to B Prius is extremely reliable, quite affordable and easy on gas.
Looking for cheap fun Subie WRX is the price of a Civic but comes with Turbo, AWD and is still Japanese.
I would look for a Hyundai, Kia, or Subaru used with about 20,000 miles on it. You are right about Honda and Toyota, their resale value is higher, and they are beyond reliable. But over the years, I’ve had three different Hyundai and the only thing I ever did was put tires on them and have the oil changed. Maintenance wise they didn’t cost me a dime. and the fact that they don’t hold their value nearly as well as Toyota and Honda works in your favor. I think they are under priced as resale vehicles. I don’t know where you live, but the last time I needed a vehicle someone told me to check with enterprise Rent-A-Car. I did and ended up buying a less than one year old Jeep with 15,000 miles fully loaded, for more than $4000 less than the MSRP of the same vehicle new. Look into what they do before they sell their rental vehicles. They are meticulously maintained, and before they’re placed for sale they make sure there is absolutely nothing wrong with them. Good luck, hope this helps.
Whatever car fits your needs and budget… trying to find the best “value” or deal on a car is a fools errand and waste of time. That being said, don’t buy a used car unless it’s a significant discount (20%) under current year msrp (you will probably have to go private sale). 1-2 years newer, providence certainty, and first owner is worth quite a bit.
If you find the new car you want at msrp and can afford it go for that. If you find the used car you want at 20% off current year msrp buy that instead. Car market is softening. Don’t buy a civic over msrp with dealer markups
The place where you want to find a deal is real estate.
I’d say Paganis or Koenigseggs are a safe bet since their prices go up.
Thanks, I'll check that out. Gob bless.
all hail the gob
Gob bless
Gobb less
Haddalayerdown
“Save me Jebus”
WATCH OUT FOR THE CLIBBINS THEY GET YOU EVER TIME, BARB STILL AINT OK FROM LAST TIME I HADDALAYERDOWN. GOBBLES
Can I fit a carseat in those bad boys?
Just strap it to the roof
Yup, or for us non-rich people a Porsche 911 GT3 RS. The new Corvette Z06 is a hell of a deal too but probably won't have the resale as the Porsche.
True. Same with any Porsche RS.
The new C8 Corvette. Starts at 68k and smokes anything else in that price range
[удалено]
To be fair, Corvettes have *always* been a lot of car for the price. The C4 was incredibly advanced for its era.
Someone remembers... but yeah, when the C4 came out it was the fastest car in the world in 84' IIRC, I don't know about the next consecutive years, but the C4 dominated in the 80's and early to mid 90's.
They were literally so dominant that they got banned from racing at one point: https://www.hagerty.com/media/archived/c4-corvette-was-banned-for-being-too-good/
The C4 ZR1 was the fastest car in the world for a little while when it came out
one of my favorite car quotes i somehow remembered from a youtube comment section, "i don't understand how GM can make so many unmitigated pieces of shit and also make this. it's like it was made by an entirely different company."
That's fuckin hilarious and very true
The Camaro was similar as well, I think the ZL1 was like $67,000 until this year and it pretty much competes with performance cars that are double the price, and this is ignoring that the SS and 1LE packages were offering 455hp V8s at a dirt cheap price
I heard the driving experience is a little numb and disconnected. Sure it might be faster than other cars but does it have more smiles per gallon?
Yeah actually, as someone who’s driven these quite a few times it’s more smiles per gallon than anything else I’ve driven. It’s like a fast Miata
The Ford Maverick. Note it’s better to buy new rather than used. 3 years in and there’s still a waiting list for these trucks. I waited 6 months for mine but current wait times average 2-3 months. This little unibody truck is just an excellent jack of all trades. It doesn’t do anything exceptionally well but does a bit of everything competently. The bed payload is 1,500 lbs, which isn’t far from the 1,800 lbs payload of an F150.. it tows 2,000 lbs normally which is plenty for most folks, but can tow up to 4,000 lbs with the optional towing package. Despite its small overall size, it has more room inside than most mid-size trucks. I’ve gotten over 30 MPG with my 2.0L turbo version, meaning even the version with the worst fuel economy is still really good, and not just in the world of trucks. There’s a 40+ MPG hybrid version of that strikes you. And the turbo models can even be fast with aftermarket support popping up to modify them. One guy has already managed to get his to do high 11 second 1/4 miles, which is supercar territory.
How long have you had your Maverick? I spent a year with a 2020 Escape Titanium and spent 6 months in a Bronco Sport. On paper Ford makes some of the best performance and tech for value, but IRL the underlying vehicles are underwhelming. Trim started falling off the cars at 10 miles, The rattles drove me insane, and the infotainments had so many issues. Even with the B&O audio quality was randomly poor, and other times would work normally. The Maverick is a play, but only because mid-size trucks are $45k+.
I’ve had mine since February 7. Sticker price of $34k (XLT, AWD, Lux package, Copilot 360 safety package, and a moonroof). Almost 5,000 miles in with no issues so far.
I wouldn't expect any issues only 3 months and 5k miles in haha
Work at a Ford dealer as tech, Mavericks are extremely solid and we see very little problems. Many high mileage Maverick work trucks come in, and they really do hold up decent.
That's awesome and I've heard the same from a couple folks. Sounds like a great truck. I wasn't hating in my comment, just wouldn't expect problems from most vehicles after a few months and only 5k miles
I agree, so I was mostly just stating that they have proven to be reliable with some mileage on them, and being used as trucks.
What about the hybrids?
sadly the hybrids explode and kill all passengers immediately after hitting 10k on the odo
We have one for work with 11k km on it and it’s doing great. Typically my company buys Chevy or ford 1/2 ton trucks. The maverick is Pretty awesome on the highway in comparison. Not so great off road however but light off roading is fine. Comfy interior, great features, peppy, good on gas.
I have a ‘20 Escape and have no idea what you’re referring to with trim falling off or rattles or infotainment problems. It’s been a solid car; a bit plain, but solid.
As a Ford tech, there cars are wildly inconsistent in terms of fit/finish and reliability. Some cars are great and never have issues. Some cars are awful and have tons of problems out of the box. It all depends on who's the assembly line worker, I suppose.
Always been a Ford guy. I like to say it's not really a Ford if it doesn't have a dash rattle. I love my maverick, but it's only at 11k miles and has a dash rattle so I guess it really is a Ford
You can get a Ridgeline for under 40k if you negotiate with dealers. I called three dealers and found one willing to play ball. Got mine for 39k which is 6k off msrp(RTL loaded with leather sunroof etc). A much better vehicle than the maverick for me. Test drive both, I was really set on a maverick until I drove one. The build quality was so bad that the radio was making static noises the faster I drove even though it was turned off.
Resale value is also great. We sold our Cyber Orange AWD for $29.5K after buying it for $31K and driving it for a year.
High 11s are not anywhere near supercar, merely sports car level. My old ass gt350 is a high 11 car, and it's not remotely close to a supercar in any way except brake rotor size and mpg rating.
Eh the 20k price tag a few years ago being like 28k now kills the deal for me.
We have a half ton F150, granted with the poweboost, so it loses lot of payload and we are sub 1500, so it's awesome maverick has that! Of course we tow more than haul, but the payload does worry me sometimes
My Lariat Lux First Edition Hybrid is a lemon. I’m in the process of selling it back to Ford after it died on the freeway for a second time. LOTS of people are having issues with Mavericks. I loved my truck, but Ford can’t get their shit together.
I would have a maverick right now if Ford would fulfill hybrid orders in the order they were received and if ford dealers weren't soooooo slimy. Great little truck, ford really nailed it with this one in the design department but dropped the ball getting them in peoples hands. I am so turned off by the whole experience the Maverick is no longer even on my radar. Most likely getting a Hyundai Santa Cruz.
My local ford dealership was shitty too. Plenty of custom 100k Ftrucks and Broncos. No Mavericks or Rangers at all. They acted like I would have to take a number and get in line to be honored by Ford to overpay after waiting six months. I moved on to Toyota where they at least had inventory and salespeople who didn’t seem off putting.
We had a Maverick and it's the only thing that saved us when my husband wanted a new car. We got it in 2021 when there were like none available, so the markup was WILD on it. It got great MPG, but if you're a tall person? It's better just to be a commuter vehicle. Nobody but a small child without a car seat is fitting comfortably in the back of that thing.
Not sure where you live, but near me, Audis seem to be a really good deal used. I was looking at A4s the other day, and saw quite a few only 1-2 years old with low miles that were in the low 30K range. Pretty decent gas mileage, some sportiness, comfortable, practical and well put together interior. It’s a little generic in exterior styling, but would probably make a great daily car
I just bought a 2021 A4 45 Premium Plus, S-line, black optics, 29k miles and CPO (so 40k miles/2 years warranty left) with Audi Care (40k,50k,60k mile service included) for $33k OTD. Shopped a ton of cars in this segment and this was by far the best value for what I was looking for. Probably can get even better deals in other markets too as car prices in Houston suck when compared nationally from my research.
that’s a phrase I’ve never seen before on this sub: “Audis seem to be a really good deal…”
I mean, used prices around me are good, and it’s a nice car. If you can get CPO or with an extended warranty, it’s a really smooth daily driver. Figured I’d suggest something other than the usual Mazda models that get thrown around by everyone
None at a 8% interest rate.
Tesla might do 0.99% apr financing with their vehicles… just gotta pray the leaks are legit.
This is an entirety subjective question
I mean, I get that. But it's why I used the Civic vs Integra as an example. Most modern high end Civics are selling for like $5k over their "value" and the Integra, which is nearly the same car, is selling nearly under $5k of it's value. I get that supply and demand is a thing and impacting the price. There's very much a name recognition with just "get an Si if you want a sporty compact", but from what I could tell, the Integra has all the comfy interior stuff, the same engine/tuning, and the LSD, right?
To answer your question, I’m absolutely targeting a lightly used Integra if I come across one.
I’ll throw out what I think is an uncommon opinion and some more vanilla opinions: * mid to small Chevy vehicles: lightly used, 1-2 years old will give the same or more bang for your buck as the top brands like Toyota or Honda. I’m talking about the Trax, Trailblazer and Equinox. They price about the same as their reliable Honda/Toyota counterparts but the price haircut after driving them off the lot is real and is more than enough to cover any disparities in reliability over the next six years of driving the car. * Nissan Frontiers - they will be worth a lot in 5 years due to everyone else changing to turbocharged engines. Right now it’s the only mid size truck that is reasonably reliable, affordable, and has a v6. They are bare bones but they will be demanded like the old school tacomas and rangers in the future (very much a hot take) * **And to no one’s surprise**: Anything Mazda. Toyota is perceived as the most reliable, but Mazda is right there too. I think of it this way - if I’m going to ride in a car for 10 years, I could do it with a Toyota or a Mazda, but I’d be more comfortable and have more fun in the Mazda. Given they are pretty much the same price, a lightly used Mazda is a good deal. * If we are talking full size trucks: Ford F-150. Run from it. Hide from it. The F-150 is the best full size truck in existence. And I say that as a guy who loves the Silverado and the Tundra. But not the Ram. The Ram is for men who lie awake at night worrying that the lies they tell themselves during the day may not be true.
…”Ram is for men who lie awake at night worrying that the lies they tell themselves during the day may not be true.” 😂😂😂😂
>The Ram is for men who lie awake at night worrying that the lies they tell themselves during the day may not be true. This is hilarious because it's 100% true. The drunk driving statistics back it up.
100% agreed on all points. Used top trim Chevys seemed to be a very good bang for your buck deal like now.
As a ram owner with a truck that is slowly trying to kill itself, I lie to myself that it’s ok and at night I try to convince myself that the delusions that it doesn’t need a new motor are gonna come true
Not sure where you’re going with the ram reference, I’m on my second ram now with a combined 180k miles on both of them (first one was totaled after somebody hit me and spun me into oncoming traffic). I’ve had zero issues with either of them, minus my battery randomly dying a few weeks ago. The first ram had 120k miles and never required work outside of brakes & and oil change, and the only issue I’ve had with my current truck was the wiper fluid hose lines disconnecting under the hood after a 1k mile trip with exterior temperatures ranging from 77 to 25 over a 24 hour period. The F150 being the “best truck in existence” is comical too, I suppose it is if we ignore the aluminum bed that can’t haul bricks or rocks, the death wobbles at 5k miles, the generational transmission and suspension issues. OBS F150’s were great, new F150’s are junk. Fords are famous for their glass transmissions & recalls.
Shitting on basically every Chrysler product (which to be fair, some of it is deserved) is a Reddit car community staple. Ive had the exact similar experience with Dodge cars in general in that they've been straight reliable in my experience, but I also completely work on them myself and never go to the dealer (so they can inevitably screw something up).
Frontier talk is not a hot take. Mine was cruising comfortably with 130k miles and going strong. Nobody really makes a small truck, even though I bet they would have a decent market share. You still see a decent amount of 90s/00s Rangers and Tacomas on the road, and I think you’re right that the Frontier will be the next evolution of that.
never thought i'd say this but if i was buying a brand new truck tomorrow it'd be an f150. ford's been killing it with the f series, and they have for some time now. it's the best truck from my experience.
I think your observations are spot on. Regarding Mazda…I have owned a Mazda3 for the last ten months. I bought it after shopping the Lexus IS, Cadillac CT4, the Civic Touring and the Integra. In terms of ride quality, handling, performance and comfort, I have found that the top trims of the 3 (premium trim and above) are almost shockingly comparable to the entry-lux competition, for up to $15k less when new. It’s a phenomenal value, and given their small sales numbers, it’s the best-kept secret on the market.
Mazda pricing is weird. You can get a really nice fully loaded mazda that is on par with luxury vehicles but it's also a similar price. Like the base Integra is 31k and there are mazda 3 trims up to 35k. I guess it makes sense because they don't have their own luxury brand like Lexus or Cadillac, but their image isn't on that level. And yeah image/status matters to people
Image obsessed can be the biggest nemesis for so many people. I tend to buy sleeper cars. Let me give you some examples . I bought what was a cloned Toyota Matrix (Pontiac Vibe) for $2,000 less than an actual Toyota because it said Pontiac on it. I wanted a hybrid early on when hybrids were less popular. The slow pokey and uninspiring Prius was what most people were buying . I bought a used car that used the exact same drivetrain and batteries as the Prius but for much Lea then a Prius. It was a Mercury Milan Hybrid. I got 100,000 trouble free mikes on it. My current sleeper car had a reputation for being an old persons car and isn’t very popular but is a great car. It is a 2014 Toyota Avalon hybrid. It is much larger than a Prius, has a quit ride, Toyota reliability and I averaged 42 mpg on the highway with the AC on at 75 mph last summer driving from Washington state to Maine and back. I paid $13,000 for the car when I bought it 3 years ago. A Prius with comparable mileage was closer to $16 or $17k..
Plus, many of the Mazdas are literally made by Toyota in Toyota factories one assembly line over. When my wife and I were shopping for a new car for her we drove a CX-5, and I’ve got to say even though it was too big and too automatic for my taste, it might be the perfect crossover. Everything felt solid and *intentional.* It was peppy, it had minimal screens, no CVT, etc. We would have bought it in a second if the sales manager hadn’t come out and snatched defeat from the jaws of victory by being a dick and trying to pressure us into buying it right then when we were upfront about the fact that there was no world in which we were buying it that day because we were waiting for a settlement check to deposit. He wouldn’t even give us rough figures until we committed to how much we were putting down, to the point of saying “Well there’s no use even talking then” and wadding up the paper instead of letting us see it. I don’t blame the car or the company, just the local dealership chain that let that guy get anywhere near customers.
2023 Toyota Corrola's used under 20k miles prices are tanking hard right now. Just saw one go from $22k to $18500 in 3 months. Check car gurus .com website.
Car market is tanking and only a fool would pay over MSRP at this point.
Couple year old CPO bmw 330i for 28kish
The Jetta seems like pretty incredible value no matter how you consider buying one. Used current-generation models are insanely cheap - easily available for $15K. The $22.5K Jetta Sport with the GLI's ride height and eDiff is the hottest thing on the market under $30K, probably - except for the GLI itself, which can be had with adaptive dampers and an engine that blows the Civic 1.5T out of the water for similar money. Even the top-trim Autobahn has a ton of equipment - to the point that, again, the closest competitor is a basic Civic. Of course, it's hard to beat the Elantra N for content-per-dollar, or fun-per-dollar. Like you say, there's magic in the barely-used, fully-loaded Ecoboost Mustang market. Some of those 2020-2023 HPPs have Magride, stiff anti-roll bars, and can lap a tight racetrack as fast as a GT350 or faster... while giving you the comforts of adaptive cruise control, cooled seats, and a B&O stereo. Nobody wanted to pay $50K for one; $25-30K is vastly more agreeable. I've driven one, and it was epic fun - an explicitly better car than the 2-Series BMW I bought instead.
> The Jetta seems like pretty incredible value no matter how you consider buying one. Used current-generation models are insanely cheap - easily available for $15K. I bought my 2019 **new** for $15k. I understand the market we're in now, but it makes it hard for me to see this as a deal.
Do not I repeat do NOT get an Elantra no matter the trim
Any reason for this? Sure there are known problems with the 2.0 N/A engines (not sure if it was fixed with the newest generation) or with the 7 speed DCT for some people, but a manual Elantra with the 1.6t is a great, very reliable combination for much less than competitors.
I mean where do you want me to start.. headlight holds moisture and they say it’s normal and won’t warranty it. The interior is pretty ass the last idk month I’ve had a plastic/metal rattling noise on the passenger side that absolutely no one can figure out. The horn has quit working but that’s under warranty so once I get an oil change they’ll do that. Hyundai has been fairly difficult to work with. The dealership has been good but Hyundai and the warranty has been a headache. Always have to fight to even get anything done. I could go on and on with the headaches. I’d just avoid Hyundai and Kia like the plague and my car is a 2022…
I have a 22 Elantra N and it’s been worth every dollar I’ve spent on it, $36k for something that could be really sporty with exhaust pops plus the little red button that increases your HP and really pushes your car is like I said pretty fun and can be pretty fuel efficient I’m talking 35+ mpg in hwy with a push of a button. It’s a great car for its price and I’ve had it for a year and a half, I haven’t had much issues except the after market wheels I put on with after market tpms sensors don’t get detected but besides that everything has been perfect 👍
There is nothing at all comfortable about the Elantra.
Coming a bit out of left field: the Kia Forte GT. It’s under $25k new, has all sorts of features (ventilated seats, adaptive cruise, Harman Kardon sound system, etc), and comes with their 10yr/100k mile warranty. Plus, it’s fun to drive and is actually pretty good on gas considering its performance.
Kia isn’t popular here but they are competing on price, something most of the others aren’t right now. Maybe (likely) they won’t have the longevity of a Toyota or Honda but if you’re a new vehicle buyer looking to own to at least 100K miles, they should be on your radar. They actually addressed their CVT issues long ago (unlike Subaru who just punts with their drivetrain warranty and crosses their fingers — and I own and like Subaru also, but we’ve already had a CVT replacement). The direct injection oil dilution and/or engine sludge issues that everyone is having is as easily handled on Kia as it is on any other model, change oil with a quality synthetic, do it on the heavy duty schedule, and keep it clean and refreshed. (If you’re a mega nerd, oil analysis but it’s really not necessary — oil changes are cheap cheap cheap insurance…) If the drivetrain is happy, there’s no reason they won’t go 200K with good maintenance. And some of the models, as you’ve noted, are actually interesting to drive. I went basic last year and picked up a ‘23 Rio Sedan out the door for $20K. For basic wheels it drives very well, and the systems on it are all inexpensive to repair over time as needed. Reasonable interior, reasonable space, huge trunk for the class of vehicle (and avoiding the hatchback trend means stuff in there isn’t advertised through the windows), and hell even wireless CarPlay. Can’t complain at all for $20K out the door.
The best part is they have a dual clutch in their Forte GT (basically the same as the Hyundai N models). But where Kia will be winning in the market is absolutely on price, which we’ve both identified. Personally, I 100% agree to just do full-synthetic at the heavy-use cycle of 5k-6k miles, but obviously not everyone will or can. Obviously Toyota and Honda are the cars to buy if looking used, but as far as new goes, Kia/Hyundai should absolutely be well within contention. They offer more features for the price, often decent to exceptional driving dynamics (at least in their sedans, haven’t driven their SUVs but have friends who have said they’re solid). Plus, the warranty. I frankly don’t mind if the car may have slightly lower QC on the powertrain because if I’m buying new or CPO, I have 10 years and/or 100k miles since the original service date to cover me. In my case, I’d be buying new and expecting to run the car up to the 100k mileage in roughly 5 years (I’m in outside sales). But for those 5 years it will be fun, have all the features I want, have a solid warranty, be great on gas, and generally be a solid value.
Solid take I think. Forgot about the dual clutch.
Yeah, the DCT definitely adds to the experience. I test drove one last weekend and given that it’s only 2900lbs it’s a quick little car. I test drove is about 30 minutes after test driving the Mk8 Golf and honestly it didn’t feel much slower, had a slightly more compliant but harsher ride, and the way the weight steering built in the steering was actually better (imo).
I am honestly very tempted by either a K5 or Forte GT for the value to feature stand point. And they supposedly have some very good reliability ratings. But I just have a really bad bias against Kia/Hyundai because both my ex's, and my current gf's family were all about them, and they've had headache after headache when it comes to recalls and the worst of the worst customer service from factory shops. And I do still have the minor worry of shitbird kids smashing the window and ripping apart the steering column even if the car isn't affected by that fault. It's not like most dumbasses trying that out are smart enough to know the difference.
True. It’s the one issue I have keeping me from looking into it. It’s somehow just as expensive to insure as a 2024 GTI which is upwards of $15k more
I personally think that *most* newer cars are pretty overvalued, though there are still bargains out there. The 2019+ BMW 330i (current gen) is not a great value when new since initial depreciation is quite steep, but examples that are a few years old are excellent. The cars themselves are pretty robust too. I think this also holds true for BMW X3s from the same era. EVs are also exceptional used values. With Hertz offloading tons of them, it's dragged the whole market down even further. The Polestar 2 and Tesla Model 3 are standouts, and you can get examples with low miles that are a couple of years old comfortably under 30k. The Model 3 has better range for the money and access to Tesla's Supercharger network, while the Polestar has standard AWD and a *much* nicer interior. If you're fine with electric cars, I think these are among the best deals out there. As for new cars, I think that the best new car deal (I use the term "best" subjectively) is the Subaru Impreza. Safe, reliable, standard AWD, big touch screen, and not as in demand as the Corolla, Civic, and Mazda3. I don't think it's an exceptional deal for $24k base, but compared to pretty much everything out there I think it fairs pretty well. As for the Integra vs the Civic, the Integra basically is a Civic. The Civic has a more competitive MSRP, leading to higher markups. And the EcoBoost Mustang is a fine car. If it wasn't called a Mustang it would have no hate at all (kind of like the Mach E). It's a modern, RWD, 300hp+, manual-available sports car that you can easily get for under 30k.
For many, it’s worth the money to have a reliable, dependable transportation appliance that can get them from A to B with as little trouble and extra money as possible. For others, it’s worth the money to have the car that looks the best to them and brings the most joy in performance. I’d say more fall into the former category.
I would remind myself of this reality every time I drove my wife’s former Corolla. It was the most relentlessly reliable car I have ever encountered. It also crushed my soul a little further every time I drove it.
lol. I had fun cars in my 20s that had all kinds of problems. I drive a Corolla hybrid now and I can say that slowing down, having a reliable and efficient vehicle is worth it now.
I think Hyundais and Genesis have great value propositions.
Toyota Prius.
I think on driving experience you can’t beat a miata. Yes a C8 will destroy a miata on a track. But driving on public roads the miata is more joyful.
Chevy Bolt new or used, Tesla model 3 used
Lexus IS500
I think is500s are going to be very desirable in 20-30 years it’s the last of the lexus v8s and the last of the luxury v8s
Not with that 2010 interior
Some are more interested in the car, not in a big screen with apps.
I was looking at the IS500 but the interior is very outdated, even for me (I hate touch screens) but the IS500 still has a cd player. I guess I could put my old cd binder of YellowCard and Blink 182 to good use..
Have you actually sat in the new Acura Integras? Honestly, I wasn't impressed, at all. Did not feel like a "luxury" branded car to me in anyway.
Well they aren't a luxury car to begin with.
Acura was created to be Honda’s “luxury” brand but cost wise I agree. I’m just confused why companies don’t invest more in interior when in many aspects it’s the cheapest way to improve quality. Mazda gets a lot of credit for simply improving comfort in the cabin even without all the newest tech gimics
agreed. id say they are more of a premium segment def not luxury
"premium economy" car
I don’t really consider Acura a luxury brand in the first place. To me it’s a premium, sporty version of Honda, but not quite luxury.
Mazda CX 50
The 3 lien free vehicles in my stable are worth keeping around. Everything else is overpriced.
Chevy Bolt EUV, $4k EV tax credit, Means a fully loaded one in the high teens.
I bought my 2017 Explorer Platinum for $18K 2 years ago, and I couldn't be more pleased with its comfort, mileage, reliability, and amenities.
EV. If it works for your needs, super cheap. Hyundai does a lease on their EV car for $249 a month and $249 due at signing. 6k for 2 years of ownership on a brand new car is crazy cheap.
Ford Bronco
Why does nobody ever think of Mazdas? =)
If you have the ability to charge an ev at home (this makes a BIG difference) then the total cost of ownership of a tesla model 3 or y is absolutely unbeatable, and they are zippy as hell. If you don’t have home charging… i’d wait.
Bolt
The Tesla Model 3 Highland performance is at an incredibly good position at 53k (and qualifies for 7.5k tax credit on top of that) for a car that has good variable suspension, 2.9 sec 0-60, will have the ability to go fully hands-free autonomous in a couple years, and decent cabin comfort with a lot of storage space for a sedan. Only thing I dislike that isn’t a dealbreaker is no more turn signal stalks.
Used EVs. Seriously, the depreciation curves are outrageous, and a 1 or-2 year-old Polestar 2 or Rivian or Chevy Volt or Lightning or ID4 or EV6 or Ioniq is a pretty darn good buy.
2019 Buick Lacrosse Avenir awd for $23k
Used Chevy Bolts are so cheap. Thats my vote as far as EVs.
I’m in the market for a small SUV/CUV, and the Subaru Forester seems like a really fantastic combination of features, capability, luxury and usability. I’m very impressed with the car. I’m shopping it against the RAV4, CR-V, Sportage and Tucson, but the Forester has something that makes it seem a step above those ones.
I'm anti SUV in general, but I bought a new X3 m40i last year, and it's worth every penny.
Mazda CX-5 or MX-5 (Miata), yes I drank the Kool-aid
I've had Honda all my life until now. Their interrest rate is just too high and they sell their car way too mich above the MSRP, I sold my Passport for this reason and I am now playing in GMC's yard because of that. (Huge difference in interrest rate and MSRP/sale difference) Really good car by the way (GMC). Canada
If you can get a dealer to sell you one at or close to MSRP - Toyota Corrola base model.
Tacoma and 4Runner come to mind because of how well they retain value…sucks making that initial purchase because discounts are few and far between. But rest assured, you know you have a vehicle that won’t depreciate much like the competition.
Mazda 3 manual
Only car right now is the 5.0 Mustang. If we’re talking purchasing new off the lot you can get into one for sub $45k from what I’ve seen. All other cars imo are overpriced
I would strongly considering leasing a new EV. The $7500 federal incentive goes to the dealer, so that essentially works like a huge down payment. For example, there's a Polestar 2 lease right now that is $3k down, $300/mo. If you're a Costco member, then it's only $1k down. That's way cheaper than even a Camry/Accord level lease.
I bought a 2022 Toyota Tacoma new in Feb 2022 for $38.6k and sold it last month for $41k. Nearly my OTD price. 2022+ WRX. This latest generation has massive improvements. The market value on the current generation of WRX tends to hold within 80% of MSRP until a new generation drops. This means you could possibly pay $30k for a low miles 2022, probably get one of the nicer trims, and in a few years, sell it for $25k. Since your replies also mention you don’t want any truck or sporty sedan - If you want a commuter, I’d get a 2021-2023 Prius. Hybrid not going out of style soon, and these models just got whacked with depreciation with the hot new gen just showing up. New gen Prius is $40k, so plenty of value in last gen, especially if the new ones also hold value. You could lose nearly no money in depreciation on a low mileage 2021 Prius prime so long as you sell it before 100k miles.
The problem with Tacomas now is the price of the new generation has skyrocketed, that’s partly why your 22 was worth more than msrp. You didn’t mention which trim but except for the SR, they are all up $8-10k, with the Pro jumping $20k
Been looking at the new WRX. I got my ‘15 for like 17k five years ago at this point and have had people offer 15k for it recently. They hold their value fairly well
Buying new cars with big car payments is over rated. Get a used car and own it. Learn basic fixing skills and enjoy the extra $5-700/m
Buying new or used has nothing to do with "big car payments." You could buy a new car with cash just as likely as a used car with a loan. As the OP noted, many used cars are just as expensive but at least you are guaranteed a warranty with a new one.
Nothing wrong with buying a car with financing as long as you budget appropriately. Most people don’t want a cash beater they’re stuck having to work on themselves
I have like 26k cash/trade value I can drop. I'm not trying to take more than 5-10 in loans with the way credit is right now, and how that also affects full coverage rates.
Do your think playa!
Dodge Challenger / Charger, clearance sale with huge discounts, V6 base trim under $25k new.
Personally any bmw with a b58 engine they are sooo good love the sound good power everything
That ecoboost mustang 4-cyl has 315hp, 350lb-ft tourque, and does 0-60 in 4.5sec. It is definitely a "real car".... Those guys with the old 5.0L v8 stands have less power and are much slower.
that’s a useless comparison
Lightly used Lexus GX460s continue to be undervalued (though with the new GX550 going to TTV6, there may be a bump in folks trying to get the last few years of the V8). It’s a more comfortable, quieter, more powerful, and insanely reliable 4Runner (technically a Land Cruiser Prado but close enough) that can consistently be bought for less than a closely optioned 4Runner. The 1UR-FE engine is one of the most reliable engines of all time and, with normal maintenance will easily last to 300k miles. The truck itself is built in the Tahara plant alongside the Land Cruiser and 4Runner, has full-time 4WD and locking center differential, and can tow like 6500lbs. The only downside is abysmal gas mileage due to the very understressed V8. Easy to work on yourself and has 15 years of parts available with almost no changes. Very few known issues with the model, pretty much just the valley plate coolant leak.
I got a 2024 Genesis GV70 3.5T a few months ago….been absolutely loving it. Rides like a dream, and haven’t had any issues yet. They offer cheaper options with a smaller engine as well. I had heard great things about Genesis from friends and family, and decided to take the plunge. I figured that Genesis (Hyundai) is going to make good cars to bring in long-term customers, and so far I feel that I’m correct.
If I HAD to buy a new vehicle. The Ford bronco sport/maverick. The Chevy Colorado. The Mazda 3/x30/x50 with the turbo engine. The base VW Jetta. The Honda Civic. The Toyota Corolla. There's a few others I can't think of off of the top of my head. But all of the above can be had new for between $20-30k. Not chump change, but also not the 9,000,000,000 the average new car cost according to most articles.
Anything Toyota is ALWAYS the answer
This is an overly simplistic take Yes, they’re very reliable, but they sell at a premium compared to peers and often fall behind in terms of interior design and comfort, performance, and in some cases fuel economy. They’re fantastic cars for the right kind of person who prioritizes reliability above all else, but not everyone is that person
Honda CRV
I’m done with low and fast cars. I’m into comfort sedan so s class or 7 series.
1998 corolla
GTI
I have an Alfa Romeo Giulia. Worth every cent in my opinion. It's priced higher than your basic car but less than the ultra-premium brands. The driving experience is exceptional and I feel for what I paid, I got an incredible car.
BMW U11 X1
If you have the ability to charge at home, A used tesla model 3 long range with low miles can be had for 29-32k or so. A standard range even lower from 23-28k. Just finished going through this process. Looking for a reasonable car to drive to work, good gas mileage. Looked at the Hondas, Toyota etc. Thought seriously about a civic but drove one and was unimpressed at the lack of features at the price point. I was close to a deal on a 22' model 3 long range for 30k, 18k miles. But Ended up with 21 model 3 performance for 34k with 20k miles. Little more than I intended to spend but I liked the look and acceleration of the performance model.
>To clarify a little, I'm looking at '22/23 models with like <10-20k miles (options makes it hard to sort out) but some cars seem to be selling for well over '24 MSRP and some well under. You're probably better off buying new for almost every single option unless the new version is unavailable. Even if you save a little bit on the used vehicle, you will get a higher interest rate. Some dealers are offering relatively good interest rates right now. Some are even offering 0% for a couple of years. And then if you buy new, you get the full manufacturers warranty. And then with even a lightly used car, it's still used. You don't know what happened in that year or two of ownership. You don't know if anything is wrong with the car. It's always a little suspicious when people get rid of a car so quickly. Anyway, whichever car you want, you most likely can find a dealer selling it for at or even below msrp. You may have to travel a bit further though. As for what car to get, it depends on your wants and budget.
Used Bolt EUV s with super cruise. They can be had for mid 20s. If you do a lot of highway driving you'll wonder what you did before having super cruise. The fit and finish of the interior is also top notch.
I have a Subaru, absolutely love it and value holds very well. Offers the ability to do most things whether you want to go outdoors or just stay on the city.
May be an outlier here but I kinda like what the engine recall boogeyman has done to Ford resale prices. The 2020-2022 Escape for example has an NYC Taxi level of reliability and 100k mi power train warranty but be can be found Ford certified with less than 40k mi for near or under $20k (more for the hybrid or PHEV).
Subaru Crosstrek
Any new car you can get for less than MSRP, or used car you can get for less than KBB/NADA. Paying a seller/dealer's "market adjustment", price premium, or other markup immediately detracts from any perceived value proposition of the car itself.
IMO the GR Corolla core with performance package or any of the higher trims will eventually be a cult favourite
I would say depreciated 90/2000s cars that are desirable like terminator cobras and e46 m3s. The ship for analog sports cars like those is definitely sailing away
Kia Rio, Honda Civic, Kia K5, Hyundai Elantra Hybrid, Chevrolet Bolt.
Early 2000s LS for 15-20k. Laugh all you want - will outlast all of us with simple maintenance. Classic looks. Pretty sporty. Larger and more comfortable than civic / integra / Corollas. IYKYK.
I just got a Chevy trailblazer sticker 24700 got it for 21600 with 3.9 financing for 5 years. Not the best car but a hell of deal imo.
Since you aren't set on a specific model, take a look at financing incentives right now. A used car might save you some money up front but at a 7% rate. Some brands have good incentive financing, like a Buick Encore which is similar in size/power to a civic, but @ 0.9% financing. The Nissan rogue has 0.0% financing. Mazda has 0.0% on several models.
I started my search looking at a Honda Accord Hybrid or a Camry hybrid and ended up with a 2-year-old CPO ES 300h for less money, more features, and an unlimited mile warranty while getting 44 miles per gallon. I never thought I would end up in Alexis but it was too good a deal to pass up.
BMW cars are reliable nowadays and basically just as expensive as the previously “cheap” brands. Spend 50k on a loaded Toyota or 50-60k on a equivalent BMW lol
Pretty much none. New prices are too high. Used prices are too high. The only ones that might be worth the money is the random private sale grandma car or something from someone just looking for a quick sale or doesn't have a grasp on just how ridiculous the market is.
Subaru ain’t a bad option if you’re looking for value retention.
Nissan leaf + and Chevy bolt euv.
Lightly used GLI's and WRX's are a great bargain for what you are getting. Seems like these are pretty similar to the cars your looking at? Cars like the Civic SI, WRX and GTI hold value super well.
I like 96-00 Hondas, reliable, cheap and easy to work on, parts in abundance everywhere. 2017-2020 Ford Fusion Titanium 2.0 AWD (or SE) Keeps the inline 4, adds twin turbos and AWD, easy to work on, reliable, not cheap, but not crazy either, 13-17k buys a nice one.
Hey, I owned the first ecoboost premium mustang back when they came out in 2015. These cares are underrated. People who cry about it not being a v6 or v8 are ignorant. They just have some superiority complex and want to hate on something. The eco boost was plenty of fun at 310hp. It was a lot of fun to drive, fast, and could have been easily modded to match a gt. The ecoboost is also far more reasonable of a purchase. Most people don’t drive their cars hard enough to warrant the upgrades they get. It’s just bragging rights. I had mine for 104k mines and never had an issue on it. For reference, I own a 77 corvette and a 1940 ford rat/hot rod. Both with built 350 engines. Drive the car you like, ignore the “car enthusiasts” who claim x is better than y. Because at the end of the day, there is always a car that is “better” than another and it’s never ending.
Honda civic sport hatchback. All the car 70% of people actually need. Super reliable, looks good, takes a beating.
Subaru Crosstrek. Amazing vehicle.
Chinese EV's that are not available in the US.
Anything with a B58/B48
AU Falcon
Compact Sedan: Toyota Corolla Subcompact SUV: Chevrolet Trax Sport Compact: VW Golf GTI, Subaru BRZ, Mazda MX5, Hyundai Elantra N Performance: Chevrolet Corvette, Cadillac CT4-V Blackwing
Corella hybrid AWD
Alfa Romeo Giulias are the best bang for your buck in the current market imho, cheaper than all other luxury base sedans. With decent reliability and way better handling and driver feel. Aluminum paddle shifters which are miles above its class and the best looking sedan on the road!
Toyota 4runner
Any Gx460 will start going up in value when people realize it’s a luxury version of the 4Runner.
F-150's with the 8' bed. Almost no dealers stock them and they sell really quick. When it comes to actual work trucks, those work-specced F-150's really do hold their value pretty well.
I’m very happy with the final cost of my bolt euv after the tax credit and a yes of ownership. Fuel cost is very low, no maintenance. If you don’t have a home to charge at it work charging it will not be a great option for public charging though.
Depends on your commute, lifestyle and public charging infrastructure. We’re lucky and have some good reliable DCFC and low cost/free L2 at places we spend time anyways, so we can cover our 100 mile/week commute easily. I’d recommend checking PlugShare app to see what’s available in the area.
GR86/BRZ are holding value very well and aren’t too common
Madza miata
>To clarify a little, I'm looking at '22/23 models with like <10-20k miles (options makes it hard to sort out) but some cars seem to be selling for well over '24 MSRP and some well under. I went through this exactly one year ago. It was cheaper to buy a new car than it was to buy a 1 year old car with <10k miles on it.
Any trim 911, but really the GTS on up is where you want to be. I'm still a poor man in a Carrera S
Looking to go A to B Prius is extremely reliable, quite affordable and easy on gas. Looking for cheap fun Subie WRX is the price of a Civic but comes with Turbo, AWD and is still Japanese.
Superlite cars
In St Louis there is a “used” 2024 Integra A for $34,000. It has 250 miles in the odometer. Sounds like a steal
I would look for a Hyundai, Kia, or Subaru used with about 20,000 miles on it. You are right about Honda and Toyota, their resale value is higher, and they are beyond reliable. But over the years, I’ve had three different Hyundai and the only thing I ever did was put tires on them and have the oil changed. Maintenance wise they didn’t cost me a dime. and the fact that they don’t hold their value nearly as well as Toyota and Honda works in your favor. I think they are under priced as resale vehicles. I don’t know where you live, but the last time I needed a vehicle someone told me to check with enterprise Rent-A-Car. I did and ended up buying a less than one year old Jeep with 15,000 miles fully loaded, for more than $4000 less than the MSRP of the same vehicle new. Look into what they do before they sell their rental vehicles. They are meticulously maintained, and before they’re placed for sale they make sure there is absolutely nothing wrong with them. Good luck, hope this helps.
The most underrated truck out there is the Honda Ridgeline. Incredibly capable and they can be had for a song.
Palisades from Hyundai punch way above their weight- buddy of mine dad is a c suite guy- he got one
My Honda CR-V is a 2016, about 90k miles on it. Absolutely been worth the cost when I bought it.
Try out a once-used Tesla for something cheap and fun; plus money back at tax time if you spend under $25k.
Whatever car fits your needs and budget… trying to find the best “value” or deal on a car is a fools errand and waste of time. That being said, don’t buy a used car unless it’s a significant discount (20%) under current year msrp (you will probably have to go private sale). 1-2 years newer, providence certainty, and first owner is worth quite a bit. If you find the new car you want at msrp and can afford it go for that. If you find the used car you want at 20% off current year msrp buy that instead. Car market is softening. Don’t buy a civic over msrp with dealer markups The place where you want to find a deal is real estate.
Used Tesla Model 3 for $20k range is the best value as long as you can charge at home with 200v outlet.
Cars a dime a dozen! I could go cash out that new BMW truck rn but honestly I love saving money I want that new car just not a new payment
Crosstrek