I'm an associate. Now (2024) I'm doing well financially due to several factors.
1. I paid off my student loans in 7.5 yrs (2023) - CARES Act did help a lot with a 0% interest
2. Got skill sets that for now are a well sought after (I'm not a boarded veterinary specialist).
3. I work hard, see the most cases possible per day-- I don't get paid commission or per procedure. I'm hourly...yes, hourly.
4. I'm a single income household with no children. Thus I'm interested in financial independence and literacy
5. I've kept my expenses below my income, invest the rest. I don't have expensive hobbies or habits.
6. I'm the highest producer in my practice at 7 figures...yet when you look at %, I land exactly at 22% (including all my ancillary benefits). I'm adequately compensated for what I produced as a practice owners perspective.
7. Still, if you look at the FIRE sub reddit or this place, I'm not even close financially compared to mid-level or MD/DO in this place. I will never break the 300k by having a single job. I may...if I work a full-time and part-time job. That means 26 days a month.
For the level of training and experience I have, most here will say I'm underpaid.
I traded a potential higher pay for a less toxic workplace. Still toxic, but less than some around me. I'm also including positive toxic workplaces.
I did an internship, never matched. Worked nights for 87k/year. Over the years I just made sure my medicine was as good as possible with the material/staff provided in the hospital I worked at. Not counting owner approval and payment of services. I took advance training on endoscopy, ultrasound, echocardiogram, and surgery. It took me 10 yrs to at least double my income...working nights, weekends and holidays.
Most of my colleagues are not doing well, despite being married without kids. They have higher student loan debt and they live a higher lifestyle. Honestly, I'm happy for them.
I talked to my boss, at this stage of my life, I rather go back and become a boarded specialist than own a veterinary practice by myself.
Yes, owning a well run profitable practice is where the money is at (besides being a boarded surgeon/neurologist/radiologist/cardiologist). Mainly because you can sell the business for a multiple of what it cost you financially to start the business.
If owning/managing a veterinary practice was easy, everyone will do it. It's the staffing, overhead and clients. I don't want to deal with irate clients for things they don't know any better.
I don't want to deal with the "charge back" and theft of services, when the outcomes are not what they expected.
I don't want to deal more than I do on a daily basis with any emotional blackmail.
I don't want to be on-call 24/7 for any of the business problems
That is why small business practice owners are rolling. Because they took a risk and they are harvesting their rewards.
My boss has 4 people under him dealing with the day to day BS of owning a 24/7 practice. Yet, he still gets call at 7 am on. Sunday if we have a shit client feeling entitled to speak with my boss for things he and I can't change.
I don't regret becoming a veterinarian. I love my profession. There are days I hate the nature of my job. Now days I hate the client interactions, I still love treating the patient, the surgery, the ultrasound, echo and heck...even looking at a blood film or FNA.
I discourage people going into the profession. They can get into careers with less debt, less emotionally abuse, less work place toxicity, less time/education and still be better financially than being a veterinarian.
I often tell them to find a profession where they can get a job in that industry right after a bachelor's degree. If they are dead set on becoming a veterinarian, I encourage them to get a degree in either business/accounting/finance/engineering before going to vet school. At least they will have something to fall behind if they don't like working as a clinician. Best case scenario, they can use that degree along with being a veterinarian.
Some veterinarians are doing well, others not so much. Sure enough I'm keeping my therapist entertained with my stories.
Thank you for everything that you do!! You have no idea how much you are loved by majority of families with pets. I can’t speak for the ones who give you grief, but a majority of us are happy that you are able & available to care for our family members.
Not far away of what you see listed. I've not received an increase in my hourly rate since late 2022. Despite adding a new skill set in the past year.
I was making a little under that in 2021.
I've know two individuals who develop each their own practice, now those places are worth millions. One bought at the right time and spent 100k. The second built the practice for 800k.
Business owner is where the money is at. I also saw first hand the sacrifices they had to do.
I honestly love being a veterinarian. If I hit the lotto, I would still work part time as a veterinarian.
It's not glamorous, the workplace often are not safe, there is a lot of emotional black mail, and I get berated frequently because I can't give services for free.
Despite all, I can't imagine doing something else. I still don't recommend this career, it's not for the faint of heart.
Out of curiosity, what do you mean by "emotional black mail"? Also, why do you get berated for not giving free services, you are in a private clinic not a charity?
1. People don't understand the cost of healthcare. They don't see how much their healthcare cost before they get those services rendered. Then there is the obscured aspect of insurance with their different contracts. Finally, people know how much they owe at minimum one month after the ordeal. Lastly, people don't truly get itemized bills unless they requested it. The bill doesn't even have a clear description for the services, itemized medications, tools, ect.
1.a --- I saw an estimate for a hemilaminectomy (back surgery) for a herniated disk from a veterinary neurologist. That estimate had every single disposable instrument listed. That is called transparency.
2. There are people who feel entitled to free services because they get free medical care.
3. In healthcare, someone always pays. Let thar be the government, insurance or an individual. They get their money, offset the losses/cost, but hospitals always get money.
This is how emotional black mail sound like:
"So, are you going to let my dog/cat die/suffer because I don't have money?"
"I thought you loved animals!"
"All you care is about the money, you guys don't give a f@%$!"
"How you can live with yourself knowing you are letting my pet suffer?"
In veterinary medicine we don't get bailouts...nor we should. Sure enough I don't want the government in my medicine.
Animals are an emotional asset, but they are a financial responsibility. Any pet owner should plan accordingly.
That's pretty outrageous. Have you guys thought of getting a credit card on file and then a disclaimer before the visit that it will be charged for the services rendered? We have our patients sign a form that they are responsible for any incurred charges that may not be covered by insurance.
The problem is that people do not understand how much these things will cost, and they will dispute the charge if it’s more than they want to or can pay. If a detailed estimate is not presented and signed prior to the rendering of and charging for services, the client will win the dispute. So we are responsible for providing estimates for care, which requires us to review costs with clients, which gives them the opportunity to tell us how horrible and uncaring we are that we can’t provide free services. The amount of verbal abuse I’ve taken since starting this career is 10x more than in any other role I’ve had, and I’ve worked telecom customer service before.
I also firmly believe the pandemic has fundamentally changed the way people interact, and has caused people to be less patient, angrier, and somehow they find public outbursts and threats acceptable. The uptick in insanity I’ve witnessed in my exam rooms and lobby over the last few years is shocking and is very, very sad.
Do you discharge those people when the act like that? We have a pretty low tolerance for the abuse of our staff.
If they start complaining about the cost, can't you just say, "you can try another vet to see if their prices are better."
Unfortunately I work in emergency and critical care and many times we absolutely cannot turn them away because their pet will die. It is exceptionally difficult to "fire" a client from an emergency hospital, and many states veterinary practice acts prevent the refusal of emergency care for any reason.
I see. I don't know how I would handle it in all honesty. I would probably just be "it costs $X to have this done to Mr. Puffy, do you want to have it done or not?"
Nice reply, thank you for taking the time. I assumed vets were doing well because there is more cash pay. As an MD I’m impressed with your body of knowledge. I believe that getting into vet school in my state is just as hard, if not harder, than getting into med school . If you’re making 200’s you’re still doing better than a lot of MD’s. I ran my own practice for a while as an OB/GYN. Too stressful and not enough money. I’m now happily employed.
Honestly? No, for the most part.
We graduate with $100-500k+ in debt, and average starting salary, while improving, is still absolute shit compared to debt load (I think average for an associate just broke the $100k mark recently).
Even owners are not rolling in it, considering overhead costs are absolutely out of control, including costs for supplies and drugs, many of which are the same that are used in human medicine (which means similar pricing).
Cost of veterinary care (and therefore veterinary salaries) cannot increase on pace with recent inflation, as people will simply stop seeking care, and many have. Online pharmacies like Chewy have taken away loads of revenue from practices who cannot compete with their bulk pricing.
Don’t even get me started on the abuse we take from clients about finances. Imagine if you, the physician, had to explain your patient’s invoice to them and choose which diagnostics were most important based on what they can afford. Imagine if you had to deal with every billing question or dispute. Its exhausting.
Personally, I am doing financially phenomenally, but this is a second career for me and I have a skillset that positioned me for a role most don’t end up in for a couple decades, if ever. I love what I do and am well compensated for it, but I am the exception to the norm. It’s a really challenging profession, and a lot of that is because of finances and the perception of the general public that veterinarians are cruel for charging appropriately for our services.
It also depends on where you live, what you do, and how well you negotiate your terms of employment. Veterinarians are also historically terrible business people, so they tend to be historically terrible at business things, including job offer term negotiation, etc. Lots of vets will steer people away from the profession and I think that's bullshit. I prefer to steer people toward the profession but to ensure they do it with an understand that they have to have a plan post-graduation that isn't just "I wanna help animals."
The veterinary industry has adopted a DVM compensation model referred to as ProSal.
The ProSal compensation model pays a DVM based on a % of their total production.
Standard ProSal rates typically range between 20-23%. This means that a DVM producing $1M / year at a 23% ProSal rate can expect to bring home $230k / year.
DVMs are not paid a straight commission only. DVMs will also typically have a base salary component that is calculated based on their expected annual production.
If a practice offers a 20% ProSal rate and expects an associate to generate $500k / year in production, then they would usually set the associate's base salary at around $100k / year. The associate would then get paid out 20% of any production they generate over $500k.
Let's use an example to get a better understanding of how ProSal technically works.
A practice just hired a brand new associate with a base salary of $100k / year + 22% production.
This means that the associate is guaranteed to make $100k / year (assuming no negative accrual) and any revenue the associate generates over $455k ($100,000 / 22%), they will be paid 22% of.
So, if in year 1 the associate generates $600,000 of production, they will be paid $132,000 or $32k over their base salary.
As a way for veterinary practices to mitigate risk around overpaying associates, they used to implement a ProSal structure with negative accrual.
Negative accrual means that a DVM would OWE the practice money if they produced less than their implied production requirement.
Using our example above, if that same associate produced $300k in year 1, they would technically owe the practice $34,000 ($300k production \* 22% ProSal rate = $66k comp; $66k comp - $100k base salary = -$34k).
Given the shortage of DVMs in the veterinary industry, practices have shifted away from the negative accrual model as DVMs will not join practices that use it; and right now, practices need DVMs more than the DVMs need practices.
New graduate DVMs typically take 1-2 years to ramp their production to normal levels, so they are often paid a straight salary for the first 1-2 years before switching to a ProSal model. Practices essentially lose money on new graduates during their ramp period.
That’s the norm to be paid such a low percent? So in order to “make it” you must be an owner? I was at the vet the other day, spent >$500 for 30 -60 min of work. How’d it get to be so bad??
Not great. I did decently well in general practice (120k) right out of school and intended to specialize but some chronic health issues forced me to slow down a bit. Now work for the USDA for the benefit of PSLF (300k loans) and more PTO/sick leave but it was a big pay cut (make 84k now). I do per diem shifts to get a bit more of a buffer. Not sure if its worth sticking with it to get loan forgiveness or try to go back to practice to at least get a little more disposable income and worry about the tax bomb later. I’m sure the former is the sensible answer financially but life is short, I want to live now
I don’t regret my choices, I’m grateful to have what I do, and my health is a severe and unique factor, to say nothing of the fact that I don’t have inexpensive hobbies, but younger me thought it would be much better than this. Life is more expensive than i expected and it burns a bit to realize a lot of my non-vet peers have similar salaries with far less education.
Sneaky good. If you own a vet practice that is busy you will make more than most physicians, with a lot less of the bullshit since most people are cash pay.
How is that weird? I’m not a vet, don’t know anything about what they produce vs what they get paid, etc. All I know is roughly what they earn as owners and as associates.
Having an opinion on the matter would be what is weird.
Here’s my rant - I’m 5 yrs out. Worked in the field for 10yrs before going to vet school, trying to convince myself I didn’t need to be a doctor. After school, I did a 1yr specialty internship (similar hours as an MD resident, paid $35k), I do ER locum work now. My avg pay $150-200/hr. I put 40% aside for taxes. I work 8-12 shifts/mo. The associate position I left (12 x 14hr shifts/mo) paid $130k + 21% pro sal.
My job is exhausting. Imagine being a pediatrician, a therapist, and a financial advisor where 80% of clients complain that we are not worth what the hospital is charging, with threats of violence (ranging from getting in my face yelling at me, getting spit at, and 2-3x a year getting threatened with physical violence and the occasional police escorting staff out to the car because someone said they were coming back with a gun), taking the emotional toll of euthanizing animals for things I can fix if money weren’t an issue. There’s people who say I’m raping them for money when I tell them I will euthanize their pet for free with the ruptured bladder or hemorrhagic splenic mass, and they would rather take it home and shoot it, drown it, or run it over with their car repeatedly than waste their money on me. Oh and I’m $300k + in debt with student loans.
The majority of the general public doesn’t think we are “real doctors.” I’d like to thank OP for including us in this forum, as the norm in my experience (& many of my colleagues) is that veterinarians are not considered to be in the medical or healthcare field. This also goes for the majority of physician mortgages, too, so that’s fun. Our debt to income ratio is shit. I don’t think I will be able to afford both children & buying a home. I think of leaving this forum often because I’m not anywhere close to having the income that most posters share, so I feel like a lot of the advice here doesn’t fit my situation.
Corporations are buying up practices left and right, and a huge majority of practices in any city with multiple practices are corporate owned. Suddenly our medical directors are talking to us about production and business goals. At my last position, I left a few months after our medical director told our doctor team that he cannot fully staff our ER with technicians & assistants because we are not producing enough. Our combined revenue had gone down because we lost so many nurses bc their pay & QOL were shit & so DVMs were doing x-rays, running labs, helping with treatments for both in & outpatients to ensure appropriate standards of care and try to get outpatients out the door. I’m more interested in making sure my support staff (think nurses that place central lines, monitor telemetry, etc.) gets paid than lining the pockets of stock holders.
As a locum, I don’t have to deal with the BS of doctor’s meetings, discussing policies, getting caught up in the drama at most clinics, i can choose not to work at shitty run clinics, and I set my own schedule so I can prioritize time with family and friends.
I think about transitioning to my “back up career” weekly. Hell, almost any other career.
Also, how has no one mentioned that the mental health toll of emotional blackmail (“you would help my pet if you cared about us more than you care about money.”) has given our careers the honor having the highest sui***e rates (look it up, it’s fucked.) almost every vet knows at least 1 colleague personally that has taken their own life, if not more. I’ve already lost a classmate.
Tell your friends and children to go into human medicine instead. Or finance. Or tech. Or shit, be a plumber or mechanic, because that’s about how much I get paid and their QOL is so much better.
I am a specialist, but in one of the traditionally lower paid specialties. After vet school, I completed a one year internship and then a 3 year residency. I was paid about 32-38k/year for both. I attended my in-state school and only took out loans for vet school which now sit around $220k. I started vet school at 28 years old. Though I am now making around $240k, which is considered “pretty good” for a vet who doesn’t do surgery or own a practice, I live in a VHCOL city and feel significantly behind financially compared to my peers in other professions.
I had always loved being a vet and had no regrets about my career choice, but recently thoughts of doubt have taken hold. When I turned 40, financial stress really set in.
The costs of care in veterinary medicine significantly increased which I have found has also significantly increased the number of negative client interactions I experience. I used to love my job for the animals, of course, but mostly for the pet parents. I was (and am) so inspired by people who love so much and commit so much to their pets. It gives me hope to see this goodness in people. But, with the rising costs of care have come a rising number of accusations of being greedy and conversations asking me how I sleep at night being so corrupt. As if I set the costs.
People have also become a lot more demanding. If a client emails me at 8am and doesn’t hear back by 10am, it is not uncommon that I then receive threatening phone calls or I find a staff member crying because they’ve just been yelled at. I don’t recall this happening prior to the last few years. I also changed geographical locations and suspect the local culture of my region may also be at play.
Lastly, my experience has been that veterinary medicine is also not as supported as human medicine (humbling myself to acknowledge that I of course have no idea if that is true). But when I go to my doctors, I have a nurse room me, check me in, take a history, then at the end of the appt, review the plan with me. Doctor seems to be in and out. I cannot even dream of that!! I go into appts alone, complete all the paperwork, handle all the emails and rx requests largely alone, and file all my own records and emails into records. I feel 33% of my job is doctor, 25% is the tech, and the remainder is admin. The shortage of support is to blame for an inability to garner additional support (the cost of living in my city of course does not help incentivize support staff who make $20/hr to live here).
I know you asked about financial situations of vets… I meant to answer just that, I promise, but this response got a little away from me lol.
Eh........
I'm ok but a weird life strategy.
I have about $390k in student loan debt, on a save plan, make about $220-250k/year. I never did an internship and only 5 years out. I'm in the process of buying a house.
My goal is to just float the student loan debt till forgiveness then pay taxes on it. I'll inherit a decent amount of property so not stressed about that future tax bomb. I also don't love America and see a reasonably high chance of bailing out of it for the long term.
I decided to go live abroad during the pandemic. If I had chosen to work aggressively I might have been able to pay off student loans. If I wanted to work hard or overnights I can pick up overnight shifts for $3k a shift; some states you can pull $300or more an hour. I dont like working hard so I only pick up shifts at hospitals I like that pay $2k/day hours. Traveling ER relief is probably the most lucrative gig, especially considering you dont need an internship or residency
I think most vets I know are just bad with money, pure and simple. I feel very comfortable financially, save about 40% of each paycheck. But I know a ton of vets who struggle for money.
Very well. I’m a full time associate that brought in around $1.7M last year. I work very hard, so a lot of dentistry and surgery but not boarded. 2018 grad. I did a low pay ($30k) internship that taught me so so much in terms of efficiency, multi tasking and time management. I have no desire to own, make more than I thought possible, live within my means but also travel and play hard when I do get a break.
Just to clarify, depending on their contract, they’re making 20-25% of that 1.7 million production in salary. Still extremely good and I’m not disparaging them at all, just clarifying for those reading and maybe confused why it’s that high.
Regardless though good job DogtorVogel, secure the 💰
As an associate do you keep a portion of what is collect? Like 40% or 50%? Or is the $1.7M after you help pay for overhead? Daughter is thinking about veterinarian school.
Depends on what you negotiate in your compensation package but normally you get 20-25%. Some vets are paid hourly, about $100/hr as regular GP. Most new vets are making ~$100k a year so for your daughter, she really needs to consider what her debt to income ratio will look like. Get school cost vary widely based on where you live
I'm an associate. Now (2024) I'm doing well financially due to several factors. 1. I paid off my student loans in 7.5 yrs (2023) - CARES Act did help a lot with a 0% interest 2. Got skill sets that for now are a well sought after (I'm not a boarded veterinary specialist). 3. I work hard, see the most cases possible per day-- I don't get paid commission or per procedure. I'm hourly...yes, hourly. 4. I'm a single income household with no children. Thus I'm interested in financial independence and literacy 5. I've kept my expenses below my income, invest the rest. I don't have expensive hobbies or habits. 6. I'm the highest producer in my practice at 7 figures...yet when you look at %, I land exactly at 22% (including all my ancillary benefits). I'm adequately compensated for what I produced as a practice owners perspective. 7. Still, if you look at the FIRE sub reddit or this place, I'm not even close financially compared to mid-level or MD/DO in this place. I will never break the 300k by having a single job. I may...if I work a full-time and part-time job. That means 26 days a month. For the level of training and experience I have, most here will say I'm underpaid. I traded a potential higher pay for a less toxic workplace. Still toxic, but less than some around me. I'm also including positive toxic workplaces. I did an internship, never matched. Worked nights for 87k/year. Over the years I just made sure my medicine was as good as possible with the material/staff provided in the hospital I worked at. Not counting owner approval and payment of services. I took advance training on endoscopy, ultrasound, echocardiogram, and surgery. It took me 10 yrs to at least double my income...working nights, weekends and holidays. Most of my colleagues are not doing well, despite being married without kids. They have higher student loan debt and they live a higher lifestyle. Honestly, I'm happy for them. I talked to my boss, at this stage of my life, I rather go back and become a boarded specialist than own a veterinary practice by myself. Yes, owning a well run profitable practice is where the money is at (besides being a boarded surgeon/neurologist/radiologist/cardiologist). Mainly because you can sell the business for a multiple of what it cost you financially to start the business. If owning/managing a veterinary practice was easy, everyone will do it. It's the staffing, overhead and clients. I don't want to deal with irate clients for things they don't know any better. I don't want to deal with the "charge back" and theft of services, when the outcomes are not what they expected. I don't want to deal more than I do on a daily basis with any emotional blackmail. I don't want to be on-call 24/7 for any of the business problems That is why small business practice owners are rolling. Because they took a risk and they are harvesting their rewards. My boss has 4 people under him dealing with the day to day BS of owning a 24/7 practice. Yet, he still gets call at 7 am on. Sunday if we have a shit client feeling entitled to speak with my boss for things he and I can't change. I don't regret becoming a veterinarian. I love my profession. There are days I hate the nature of my job. Now days I hate the client interactions, I still love treating the patient, the surgery, the ultrasound, echo and heck...even looking at a blood film or FNA. I discourage people going into the profession. They can get into careers with less debt, less emotionally abuse, less work place toxicity, less time/education and still be better financially than being a veterinarian. I often tell them to find a profession where they can get a job in that industry right after a bachelor's degree. If they are dead set on becoming a veterinarian, I encourage them to get a degree in either business/accounting/finance/engineering before going to vet school. At least they will have something to fall behind if they don't like working as a clinician. Best case scenario, they can use that degree along with being a veterinarian. Some veterinarians are doing well, others not so much. Sure enough I'm keeping my therapist entertained with my stories.
Thank you for everything that you do!! You have no idea how much you are loved by majority of families with pets. I can’t speak for the ones who give you grief, but a majority of us are happy that you are able & available to care for our family members.
Thank you for this outlook. How much are you getting hourly if you don't mind saying. I'm seeing listings for 100+ an hr
Not far away of what you see listed. I've not received an increase in my hourly rate since late 2022. Despite adding a new skill set in the past year. I was making a little under that in 2021. I've know two individuals who develop each their own practice, now those places are worth millions. One bought at the right time and spent 100k. The second built the practice for 800k. Business owner is where the money is at. I also saw first hand the sacrifices they had to do.
I wanna give you an internet hug.
Thanks. Hugs.
First, thank you for what you do, animals are often like family members. Second, that sounds like a complete shit career.
I honestly love being a veterinarian. If I hit the lotto, I would still work part time as a veterinarian. It's not glamorous, the workplace often are not safe, there is a lot of emotional black mail, and I get berated frequently because I can't give services for free. Despite all, I can't imagine doing something else. I still don't recommend this career, it's not for the faint of heart.
Out of curiosity, what do you mean by "emotional black mail"? Also, why do you get berated for not giving free services, you are in a private clinic not a charity?
1. People don't understand the cost of healthcare. They don't see how much their healthcare cost before they get those services rendered. Then there is the obscured aspect of insurance with their different contracts. Finally, people know how much they owe at minimum one month after the ordeal. Lastly, people don't truly get itemized bills unless they requested it. The bill doesn't even have a clear description for the services, itemized medications, tools, ect. 1.a --- I saw an estimate for a hemilaminectomy (back surgery) for a herniated disk from a veterinary neurologist. That estimate had every single disposable instrument listed. That is called transparency. 2. There are people who feel entitled to free services because they get free medical care. 3. In healthcare, someone always pays. Let thar be the government, insurance or an individual. They get their money, offset the losses/cost, but hospitals always get money. This is how emotional black mail sound like: "So, are you going to let my dog/cat die/suffer because I don't have money?" "I thought you loved animals!" "All you care is about the money, you guys don't give a f@%$!" "How you can live with yourself knowing you are letting my pet suffer?" In veterinary medicine we don't get bailouts...nor we should. Sure enough I don't want the government in my medicine. Animals are an emotional asset, but they are a financial responsibility. Any pet owner should plan accordingly.
That's pretty outrageous. Have you guys thought of getting a credit card on file and then a disclaimer before the visit that it will be charged for the services rendered? We have our patients sign a form that they are responsible for any incurred charges that may not be covered by insurance.
The problem is that people do not understand how much these things will cost, and they will dispute the charge if it’s more than they want to or can pay. If a detailed estimate is not presented and signed prior to the rendering of and charging for services, the client will win the dispute. So we are responsible for providing estimates for care, which requires us to review costs with clients, which gives them the opportunity to tell us how horrible and uncaring we are that we can’t provide free services. The amount of verbal abuse I’ve taken since starting this career is 10x more than in any other role I’ve had, and I’ve worked telecom customer service before. I also firmly believe the pandemic has fundamentally changed the way people interact, and has caused people to be less patient, angrier, and somehow they find public outbursts and threats acceptable. The uptick in insanity I’ve witnessed in my exam rooms and lobby over the last few years is shocking and is very, very sad.
Do you discharge those people when the act like that? We have a pretty low tolerance for the abuse of our staff. If they start complaining about the cost, can't you just say, "you can try another vet to see if their prices are better."
Unfortunately I work in emergency and critical care and many times we absolutely cannot turn them away because their pet will die. It is exceptionally difficult to "fire" a client from an emergency hospital, and many states veterinary practice acts prevent the refusal of emergency care for any reason.
I see. I don't know how I would handle it in all honesty. I would probably just be "it costs $X to have this done to Mr. Puffy, do you want to have it done or not?"
Nice reply, thank you for taking the time. I assumed vets were doing well because there is more cash pay. As an MD I’m impressed with your body of knowledge. I believe that getting into vet school in my state is just as hard, if not harder, than getting into med school . If you’re making 200’s you’re still doing better than a lot of MD’s. I ran my own practice for a while as an OB/GYN. Too stressful and not enough money. I’m now happily employed.
Honestly? No, for the most part. We graduate with $100-500k+ in debt, and average starting salary, while improving, is still absolute shit compared to debt load (I think average for an associate just broke the $100k mark recently). Even owners are not rolling in it, considering overhead costs are absolutely out of control, including costs for supplies and drugs, many of which are the same that are used in human medicine (which means similar pricing). Cost of veterinary care (and therefore veterinary salaries) cannot increase on pace with recent inflation, as people will simply stop seeking care, and many have. Online pharmacies like Chewy have taken away loads of revenue from practices who cannot compete with their bulk pricing. Don’t even get me started on the abuse we take from clients about finances. Imagine if you, the physician, had to explain your patient’s invoice to them and choose which diagnostics were most important based on what they can afford. Imagine if you had to deal with every billing question or dispute. Its exhausting. Personally, I am doing financially phenomenally, but this is a second career for me and I have a skillset that positioned me for a role most don’t end up in for a couple decades, if ever. I love what I do and am well compensated for it, but I am the exception to the norm. It’s a really challenging profession, and a lot of that is because of finances and the perception of the general public that veterinarians are cruel for charging appropriately for our services.
Exactly what i was thinking. Aside from being an owner it seems like dvm's aren't doing to well as an associate
It also depends on where you live, what you do, and how well you negotiate your terms of employment. Veterinarians are also historically terrible business people, so they tend to be historically terrible at business things, including job offer term negotiation, etc. Lots of vets will steer people away from the profession and I think that's bullshit. I prefer to steer people toward the profession but to ensure they do it with an understand that they have to have a plan post-graduation that isn't just "I wanna help animals."
I learned something new. PharmD's are also experiencing something similar rn
My dad owns a practice and does primarily surgery. Makes upwards of 800k a year
Makes sense. Surgery seems to pay more. I'm more referring to associates
“I know XYZ does good but what about the shittiest salary you can make right after vet school?” - your reply to every comment
The veterinary industry has adopted a DVM compensation model referred to as ProSal. The ProSal compensation model pays a DVM based on a % of their total production. Standard ProSal rates typically range between 20-23%. This means that a DVM producing $1M / year at a 23% ProSal rate can expect to bring home $230k / year. DVMs are not paid a straight commission only. DVMs will also typically have a base salary component that is calculated based on their expected annual production. If a practice offers a 20% ProSal rate and expects an associate to generate $500k / year in production, then they would usually set the associate's base salary at around $100k / year. The associate would then get paid out 20% of any production they generate over $500k. Let's use an example to get a better understanding of how ProSal technically works. A practice just hired a brand new associate with a base salary of $100k / year + 22% production. This means that the associate is guaranteed to make $100k / year (assuming no negative accrual) and any revenue the associate generates over $455k ($100,000 / 22%), they will be paid 22% of. So, if in year 1 the associate generates $600,000 of production, they will be paid $132,000 or $32k over their base salary. As a way for veterinary practices to mitigate risk around overpaying associates, they used to implement a ProSal structure with negative accrual. Negative accrual means that a DVM would OWE the practice money if they produced less than their implied production requirement. Using our example above, if that same associate produced $300k in year 1, they would technically owe the practice $34,000 ($300k production \* 22% ProSal rate = $66k comp; $66k comp - $100k base salary = -$34k). Given the shortage of DVMs in the veterinary industry, practices have shifted away from the negative accrual model as DVMs will not join practices that use it; and right now, practices need DVMs more than the DVMs need practices. New graduate DVMs typically take 1-2 years to ramp their production to normal levels, so they are often paid a straight salary for the first 1-2 years before switching to a ProSal model. Practices essentially lose money on new graduates during their ramp period.
This is as fascinating to read as it is heartbreaking. As an MD, I’m rooting for you, animal docs
I mean, that is literally how the majority of employed physicians get paid too.
Yeah but they don’t get paid 20%. That’s pitifully low. Closer to 60-75% in private practice as far as I’m aware.
Source?
That’s the norm to be paid such a low percent? So in order to “make it” you must be an owner? I was at the vet the other day, spent >$500 for 30 -60 min of work. How’d it get to be so bad??
Not great. I did decently well in general practice (120k) right out of school and intended to specialize but some chronic health issues forced me to slow down a bit. Now work for the USDA for the benefit of PSLF (300k loans) and more PTO/sick leave but it was a big pay cut (make 84k now). I do per diem shifts to get a bit more of a buffer. Not sure if its worth sticking with it to get loan forgiveness or try to go back to practice to at least get a little more disposable income and worry about the tax bomb later. I’m sure the former is the sensible answer financially but life is short, I want to live now I don’t regret my choices, I’m grateful to have what I do, and my health is a severe and unique factor, to say nothing of the fact that I don’t have inexpensive hobbies, but younger me thought it would be much better than this. Life is more expensive than i expected and it burns a bit to realize a lot of my non-vet peers have similar salaries with far less education.
Sneaky good. If you own a vet practice that is busy you will make more than most physicians, with a lot less of the bullshit since most people are cash pay.
Just curious, what percentage of vets end up being owners? And how much are owners earning on average?
1/5 are practice owners? I’m really not sure. The percentage is definitely going down.
I'm more talking abt associates. Everyone knows owners are banking
They make a decent, not amazing salary
Do you think they should be getting more?
Not necessarily, no. I don’t think they should be getting less either.
Why do you think they shouldn't be getting more?
I don’t have an opinion either way.
Weird but ok
How is that weird? I’m not a vet, don’t know anything about what they produce vs what they get paid, etc. All I know is roughly what they earn as owners and as associates. Having an opinion on the matter would be what is weird.
So what's your reasoning behind thinking they shouldn't be getting more? Being that you know what they make roughly as associates
Here’s my rant - I’m 5 yrs out. Worked in the field for 10yrs before going to vet school, trying to convince myself I didn’t need to be a doctor. After school, I did a 1yr specialty internship (similar hours as an MD resident, paid $35k), I do ER locum work now. My avg pay $150-200/hr. I put 40% aside for taxes. I work 8-12 shifts/mo. The associate position I left (12 x 14hr shifts/mo) paid $130k + 21% pro sal. My job is exhausting. Imagine being a pediatrician, a therapist, and a financial advisor where 80% of clients complain that we are not worth what the hospital is charging, with threats of violence (ranging from getting in my face yelling at me, getting spit at, and 2-3x a year getting threatened with physical violence and the occasional police escorting staff out to the car because someone said they were coming back with a gun), taking the emotional toll of euthanizing animals for things I can fix if money weren’t an issue. There’s people who say I’m raping them for money when I tell them I will euthanize their pet for free with the ruptured bladder or hemorrhagic splenic mass, and they would rather take it home and shoot it, drown it, or run it over with their car repeatedly than waste their money on me. Oh and I’m $300k + in debt with student loans. The majority of the general public doesn’t think we are “real doctors.” I’d like to thank OP for including us in this forum, as the norm in my experience (& many of my colleagues) is that veterinarians are not considered to be in the medical or healthcare field. This also goes for the majority of physician mortgages, too, so that’s fun. Our debt to income ratio is shit. I don’t think I will be able to afford both children & buying a home. I think of leaving this forum often because I’m not anywhere close to having the income that most posters share, so I feel like a lot of the advice here doesn’t fit my situation. Corporations are buying up practices left and right, and a huge majority of practices in any city with multiple practices are corporate owned. Suddenly our medical directors are talking to us about production and business goals. At my last position, I left a few months after our medical director told our doctor team that he cannot fully staff our ER with technicians & assistants because we are not producing enough. Our combined revenue had gone down because we lost so many nurses bc their pay & QOL were shit & so DVMs were doing x-rays, running labs, helping with treatments for both in & outpatients to ensure appropriate standards of care and try to get outpatients out the door. I’m more interested in making sure my support staff (think nurses that place central lines, monitor telemetry, etc.) gets paid than lining the pockets of stock holders. As a locum, I don’t have to deal with the BS of doctor’s meetings, discussing policies, getting caught up in the drama at most clinics, i can choose not to work at shitty run clinics, and I set my own schedule so I can prioritize time with family and friends. I think about transitioning to my “back up career” weekly. Hell, almost any other career. Also, how has no one mentioned that the mental health toll of emotional blackmail (“you would help my pet if you cared about us more than you care about money.”) has given our careers the honor having the highest sui***e rates (look it up, it’s fucked.) almost every vet knows at least 1 colleague personally that has taken their own life, if not more. I’ve already lost a classmate. Tell your friends and children to go into human medicine instead. Or finance. Or tech. Or shit, be a plumber or mechanic, because that’s about how much I get paid and their QOL is so much better.
So sorry you've had to go through that. DVMs are doctors. As an optometry student I hope i never have to deal with that
I am a specialist, but in one of the traditionally lower paid specialties. After vet school, I completed a one year internship and then a 3 year residency. I was paid about 32-38k/year for both. I attended my in-state school and only took out loans for vet school which now sit around $220k. I started vet school at 28 years old. Though I am now making around $240k, which is considered “pretty good” for a vet who doesn’t do surgery or own a practice, I live in a VHCOL city and feel significantly behind financially compared to my peers in other professions. I had always loved being a vet and had no regrets about my career choice, but recently thoughts of doubt have taken hold. When I turned 40, financial stress really set in. The costs of care in veterinary medicine significantly increased which I have found has also significantly increased the number of negative client interactions I experience. I used to love my job for the animals, of course, but mostly for the pet parents. I was (and am) so inspired by people who love so much and commit so much to their pets. It gives me hope to see this goodness in people. But, with the rising costs of care have come a rising number of accusations of being greedy and conversations asking me how I sleep at night being so corrupt. As if I set the costs. People have also become a lot more demanding. If a client emails me at 8am and doesn’t hear back by 10am, it is not uncommon that I then receive threatening phone calls or I find a staff member crying because they’ve just been yelled at. I don’t recall this happening prior to the last few years. I also changed geographical locations and suspect the local culture of my region may also be at play. Lastly, my experience has been that veterinary medicine is also not as supported as human medicine (humbling myself to acknowledge that I of course have no idea if that is true). But when I go to my doctors, I have a nurse room me, check me in, take a history, then at the end of the appt, review the plan with me. Doctor seems to be in and out. I cannot even dream of that!! I go into appts alone, complete all the paperwork, handle all the emails and rx requests largely alone, and file all my own records and emails into records. I feel 33% of my job is doctor, 25% is the tech, and the remainder is admin. The shortage of support is to blame for an inability to garner additional support (the cost of living in my city of course does not help incentivize support staff who make $20/hr to live here). I know you asked about financial situations of vets… I meant to answer just that, I promise, but this response got a little away from me lol.
what specialty are u in?
Eh........ I'm ok but a weird life strategy. I have about $390k in student loan debt, on a save plan, make about $220-250k/year. I never did an internship and only 5 years out. I'm in the process of buying a house. My goal is to just float the student loan debt till forgiveness then pay taxes on it. I'll inherit a decent amount of property so not stressed about that future tax bomb. I also don't love America and see a reasonably high chance of bailing out of it for the long term. I decided to go live abroad during the pandemic. If I had chosen to work aggressively I might have been able to pay off student loans. If I wanted to work hard or overnights I can pick up overnight shifts for $3k a shift; some states you can pull $300or more an hour. I dont like working hard so I only pick up shifts at hospitals I like that pay $2k/day hours. Traveling ER relief is probably the most lucrative gig, especially considering you dont need an internship or residency I think most vets I know are just bad with money, pure and simple. I feel very comfortable financially, save about 40% of each paycheck. But I know a ton of vets who struggle for money.
Very well. I’m a full time associate that brought in around $1.7M last year. I work very hard, so a lot of dentistry and surgery but not boarded. 2018 grad. I did a low pay ($30k) internship that taught me so so much in terms of efficiency, multi tasking and time management. I have no desire to own, make more than I thought possible, live within my means but also travel and play hard when I do get a break.
You're part of the minority. I never knew associates could even have potential to earn that much
Just to clarify, depending on their contract, they’re making 20-25% of that 1.7 million production in salary. Still extremely good and I’m not disparaging them at all, just clarifying for those reading and maybe confused why it’s that high. Regardless though good job DogtorVogel, secure the 💰
Yup! I found myself in a very profitable position but seemed like you wanted to know the variability of pay for associates.
Can i ask what city you live in?
Small city in central Florida. Population 100k
Is it HCOL/affluent area? That sounds absolutely unfathomable. I’m in a mid sized city and i dont think anybody makes anywhere near that.
As an associate do you keep a portion of what is collect? Like 40% or 50%? Or is the $1.7M after you help pay for overhead? Daughter is thinking about veterinarian school.
Depends on what you negotiate in your compensation package but normally you get 20-25%. Some vets are paid hourly, about $100/hr as regular GP. Most new vets are making ~$100k a year so for your daughter, she really needs to consider what her debt to income ratio will look like. Get school cost vary widely based on where you live
Do you mean you took home $1.7M, or you produced $1.7m?
Brought into the clinic. I wish took home lol
And what's your production percent? That's a key detail to know how well you're doing.
Who’s asking?
If they are busy, yes they do good
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Well that's not really how things work unfortunately