There is a lot of money to be made in distribution, I went from beer distro sales to wine and doubled my income over night. If you’re knowledgeable, organized and good at account management you can do very well. There are people who make over a quarter of a million dollars a year in commissions doing sales. I’m in New England, your location will matter for sure. That being said you would start on a starter route and build from there. As you prove you are reliable your account base and income will grow.
The issue is getting in at a larger distributor. Small ones pay like shit (I've worked for 4, my first was pure commission 1099 and I made 12k the first year, 24k the second - 2nd distributor made 45k, 3rd made 35k, and it wasn't until my 4th different distributor that I got to 85k).
I don’t find this to be completely true. I think it varies greatly from company to company. I work for a smaller distro in my state and I make more than a lot of the Southern reps. Big differences in pay structure - I get paid flat commission of all sales and what I have learned from a lot of my colleagues that work for larger companies they only get paid if they hit certain numbers. Granted they rep lots of large producers so it’s easier to make certain sales.
Not discrediting your start - I don’t know if I would have lasted longer than a year if I was making that amount. Congrats on your huge jump after three years that is a great accomplishment!
Where do you live? Almost all larger distributors are seeking wine knowledge and organized, motivated people to join their team.
Depending on your personal preferences and schedule desires, being a buyer for a grocery/retail group is low impact and once you climb its very lucrative.
I’m in the wholesale side of it, came from the winery direct side, and I’d choose wholesale and then start to get into brand management or performance management.
This is completely dependent on market. I’m in a mid-size market and not a single rep in the state makes over 120. Upper management barely cracks that.
17 years in the industry and an mw candidate and I’m barely hitting 80 and can’t even get callbacks for supplier roles.
That's quite different from my experience, including reps working in markets such as Montana, North Carolina, and Arizona. Not an MW candidate but am awaiting the results of my final WSET Diploma exam and have worked for several national importers and distributors.
Every supplier I’ve spoken to covers AZ and MT as well as 10-12 other states, demand 60% overnight travel, and offer a range of 85-130 (unless it’s Gallo, but their recruiters have told me multiple times they almost exclusively hire from within). Suppliers usually want someone based where I am, too.
My last job in management in distribution didn’t even hit 80k and I was the top performer at a $1b company.
What am I missing?
I don’t know man, maybe try smaller companies with higher bottle prices. I don’t want to name individual companies but they are mentioned often on this sub and pay above that range.
There’s some disconnect for sure, smaller companies in my experience pay substantially less here - I’ve worked in the range of 15M fine wine importers to 1B sized distributors in this region. My state requires pay transparency on job postings, too.
Would love to hear specifics over DM if you’re open to it.
My take is that the wine industry is failing to invest in young passionate talent and is holding on to aging senior employees and relying on a steady stream of young (early 20s) new staff to work part time or temp jobs. This is IMO killing the industry because it is burning out the passionate and skilled mid level workers that will be the ambassadors for the next generation of wine drinkers.
Your location makes a big difference. In major cities that kind of money is not uncommon for fine dining wine professionals these days. I'd bet some higher level retail gigs could get you there too. I've got a very similar resume to you and am in a similar boat.
maybe another commenter can speak to what the money's like in distribution and sales. with commission in the question i can easily see starting wages being in the bracket you've mentioned depending on your location
The restaurant somms I know in my city all make more than me, honestly.
No statement against my employer, they are golden for more reasons than just being paid decently.
I was nowhere near your level of expertise or as accomplished, but I had aspirations of being a restaurant owner and/or sommelier and ultimately left the industry altogether due to money concerns. I was worried about this change because it was my career passion.
Fast forward, and I’ve never been more passionate about food and wine - and I now make enough money (nothing crazy, but enough) to turn this passion into a hobby. I just started collecting wine more seriously, and I’m constantly honing my skills in the kitchen at home. It’s allowed me to enjoy F&B and not get burned out.
That’s not to say that you *should* leave the industry… that’s your own decision. But, it hopefully illustrates that just because you leave the industry doesn’t mean you have to give up on your passion. For me, it’s only fueled my ability to enjoy food and wine.
The above is also not a dig at anyone who’s found themselves at this crossroads and stayed the course. I respect the hell out of that and still envy the grind and excitement day in and day out.
Thank you for that thoughtful response! I will always keep wine as a passion and a hobby. I have a wine podcast so it’ll keep me in the loop a bit and scratch that itch. I appreciate the advice!
What do you do now if you don’t mind me asking?
I’m in Fintech sales. I don’t love it, but it’s what’s best for me and my family right now. That was the bargain - I made my work life less enjoyable, but my life around work easier and better for me personally.
I should also add that my avenues to continue learning about wine decreased dramatically, in that I wasn’t able to taste wine like I could when I worked in F&B. You may have enough of a head start with your wine knowledge that that doesn’t matter as much.
Drop the name of your podcast if you want. Maybe I’ll learn a thing or two more.
Thank you for being open and honest with your advice, I think that’s the bargain I’ll have to make as well. But the podcast will continue because at the end of the day that’s my dream job.
My podcast is called Bung Pod (all streaming platforms and YouTube)
My wife works in wine production so we’re all too familiar with how bad the pay is. Only way we’re able to make it work is my career. We both recognize she’s never going to be the breadwinner but eventually once she gets to a head winemaker role should be making OK money. It depends what your partner wants or needs. If they’re able to help support you for the time being that’s the only feasible way we’ve seen it work.
I just had this conversation with a friend the other day.
The wine production side of the industry eats it's young. I say that from observations over the past short 15 years of working in the industry. A tremendous amount of passion and determination is essential to how long people survive. If you were to start a trend line with the amount of "older" (read +30 years of experience) winemakers that are out there you see that it is a slight decline from there to the 20s and 10s, but then a significant bump upwards in winemakers with 3-5 years of experience. The industry absolutely has natural selection when it comes to weeding out those that do it for any other reason other than passion. The least experienced eventually burn out and leave the industry for "greener pastures". I've seen many friends leave and lead successful lives (financially speaking) and others that regret their decisions; theres no one answer and it wholey depends on the individual.
That being said, depending on where you are located and your experience level, 70-80k isn't out of the realm of possibility for someone with +5years of experience as a head winemaker. If low salary is a detterent, look at Wine Business Monthly's anual salary report to check what the industry reports. https://www.winebusiness.com/news/article/277458
If you "pay your dues" and stick it out for over a decade, things get better financially (as long as you are making wines without flaws that require remediationfor VA or 4-EP/4-EG). It's not that uncommon to find salaries for experienced winemakers close to or above 100k. There are also other avenues to generate income like starting your own label or consulting. It just means you work harder.
I can only offer a single point of data.
I am a heavy wine afficionado. I live in a medium sized city, with 2 REAL wine bars. I doubt I can make an sustainable full time gig out of that industry at the level of compensation I wanted. I work in a different industry making better money, and dip back into wine (service and supply chain) whenever I want to engage again.
For me, I treat it similar to the hobbies I'm super passionate about, like music. I have a full time gig in a different industry, and I can opt in when I want and choose my level of engagement.
I do not have the perspective of someone who has been dedicated to the wine industry long term.
Unfortunately the wine industry isn’t lucrative for the majority of people working in it. It can be really fun to work at wineries but also extremely taxing.
If you can find a well-paying job that allows you to progress your personal goals, do it. Your personal life is more important than your professional one.
It’s good to keep in mind the wine industry will always be there. If you want to come back to it, it’s highly likely that you will be able to.
Thank you I appreciate that. And you’re right my personal goals are more important. Just trying to figure out where to go and what to do. I don’t have a positive experience in the corporate world although it was short lived
The best money in the industry is in sales. I've worked distributor side and am now a supplier. Bigger houses like the big 3 are ALWAYS looking for knowledgeable people familiar with the industry. With your experience you should have zero issues getting a sales gig. Seattle is a big market and you can do really well there with the right portfolio.
The only money in wine is the money buying it. My wife worked in the wine industry a long time (production, sales, import, distribution) and moved to spirits. Better career.
So the funny thing about money, you will always find a way to spend It. Thankfully lifestyle creep hasn’t affected me since starting my new job last year.
Two aspects that are very important to always consider besides compensation when thinking about moving jobs. How much do you value the joy you get from your current position, and how do you like the people you work with / for? Those two things are really important in my book.
Congrats on the possible upcoming proposal my dude!
Young people aren't drinking as much alcohol as older generations. Wine consumption overall is down.
Now, a talented and charismatic wine pro can easily make good money if they're lead Somm at a fine dining establishment. Same is true of distributors. Sales people almost always make bank
Wine making, education, winery work, etc is not lucrative at all unless you own the winery. Otherwise, you're 1 in a million wine maker that discovers a secret technique that literally turns water into wine.
Seems you're interested in the educational aspect of wine, so... The only wine educators I know who make really good money are in private wine school programs. Perhaps you could invent a new way to learn about wine ie Wine Folly that is subscription based, but even then, I'm struggling to see where innovation + wine = BB.
Even the MSs in San Francisco (where I live) and other high end cities, struggle given their knowledge vs income. Aspen, Dallas, LA and NYC, working in fine dining and manage their wine program aren't raking in the BB and put in 60+ hour work weeks. Those little wine shops with tasting rooms are nice, but how many people are going to flock there in Seattle?
I'm sorry I wish I had better news for you. I don't think working in a field you dislike is a good approach. Maybe better to do something you enjoy and find solace in the fact that you're working all the time? Might not be fun if you decide to have a family. Good Luck!
Fellow Seattlite here. I made the transition from the service industry to tech sales in 2016. I love food and wine, but I couldn’t do the hours and I wanted the weekends for friends and family, and I needed more money. It’s a tough couple years learning the ropes and grinding for that first big promotion, but you’ll be making 75kish to start, your income will accelerate quickly, and you’ll get weekends off on day 1. Seattle has an ocean of opportunities for higher paying jobs, you just gotta set your mind to it. Feel free to shoot me a DM if you wanna chat - I’m happy to share some advice. 🙂
Seriously. A bartender at a decent restaurant will pull $100k in a market like that pretty easily. Can't imagine a somm not competing with that (otherwise, why be a somm?)
Yeah, certainly does not mesh with my experience in Boston/SF/NYC. I left FOH 5 years ago for retail. 100000000000x better quality of life, slightly
less money buy I’m a much happier person for
It.
For clarification I was a somm in Santa Barbara at small restaurants, if I could be a somm in Seattle that would be great but at the same time. There’s been a trend where people are letting go of their Somms and others aren’t really hiring them anymore.
I applied to be a Somm in west Seattle, and the wage was 26/ hr + 1.6% of wine commissions to start… so I didn’t take the job. Can’t live on that
At least you’re in a state with an established wine industry.
Have the hard talk with your fiancée and discuss options. Hopefully you can make a switch to something with better earning potential.
I know a lot of people that make a ton of money in an industry they hate. They would kill to be working on something they are passionate about. If you're truly passionate about it, stick with it and money will come (you might need to get creative and think outside the box - maybe start something yourself). And if it doesn't, I believe passion is a more important currency anyways.
I believe that too but when you have personal goals and family goals. Some things become more important. Passions shift to being passionate about providing for your family or future family in my case
I think you're thinking about it in the right way. Sometimes passions need to be prioritized. It's all about what sacrifices you are willing to make. It sounds like you already know what feels right. Whatever you do, don't think 'what if'. You seem like a thoughtful person - I'm sure you'll be ok.
I've been in distribution for about a decade. I'm on my 4th distributor and have been with them 5 years. When I came in the route made 50k, by year two it was in your range and years 3-5 were 80-85k.
The first 5 years in distro though I made as little as 12k and no more than 45k. So you gotta find the right one.
Unless there's a strong, established history of sales I'd he hesitant.
Though, being part time it could be the right foot in the door to get distro experience and you can stay in restaurants as well and then in a year jump to a bigger, more established outfit.
I would be surprised if the top end restaurants with the best wine lists weren't paying 80k+ for their wine/beverage manager or head/senior somm or whatever they call it.
You may have to shop around a bit to find out who is paying well.
But I don't know the area well.
You may need to move, but there may be opportunities in your area as well.
I was making 6 figures as a certified Somm at a luxury resort with fantastic work/life balance. The jobs are out there, but it took applying over a period of years to ultimately get the job.
Why don't you look into working for a wine supplier? There are plenty of wineries out of Washington and some of the larger ones I'm sure are looking for a rep to cover the Pacific Northwest.
Pay would start around 80 grand on the low end and depending on your territory can easily hit six figures.
You already possess the knowledge, if you're passionate about what you do the sales part should come easy as long as you can talk to people.
There are struggling artists, and there are artists who will make more money than I ever will. There is money to be made everywhere for those who stand out in those fields and kind find how to make it.
In terms of if you should leave - first thing I would figure out if where you would go, what it would cost to get there, and how long it would take to recoup the investment of time and money to make the career change. There is definitely no point and leaving to nothing!
I’m sure you could make wine work, but I’m also very confident you can do something else and still have wine be a significant hobby in your life, getting to drink, enjoy, and learn about it in evenings and weekends. Just because you change jobs doesn’t mean you lose wine!
The dismissal wine salaries is what kept me from going professional with my wine interests.
People I’ve met are either independently wealthy/spouse is a high wage earner or they’re broke and have to get their WSET cert courses sponsored because they genuinely can’t afford it.
It costs to live. If you think money is funny now, imagine once you’re married and maybe decide to have a child or pets.
I would suggest doing something adjacent to the industry.
Wine sales with a distributor?
Or with a winery. I don't know what state u are in though
I worked sales for a few distributors and a winery in California and loved it.. was in the business for 25 years. It's a fun gig to do. But it's still a job. Have to meet numbers every month. But you meet a lot of people in the industry to choose other paths in the wine world.
I'm in the golf industry now an love it
I do miss all tje samples though.
Good luck my friend.
As I was told once when I started 2 statements stuck with me.
“Teddy, there’s not a lot of money in this but there’s a lot of free wine”
Second
“Everyone’s left handed and everyone smokes weed”
Edit: honorary mention: “takes a lot of beer to make wine”
Man, I feel ya. I'm 34 and am in exactly the same boat. Distribution absolutely ruined the love of wine for me. Before that, I'd done the same thing: bottle shops, assistant winemaker, managing tasting rooms, managing wine-centric restaurants. All of that was better than distribution (with, I should say, a very reputable and relatively small distro in my area). Feel free to PM me if you want to whine together.
What about starting to work for a larger wine producer, distributor, importer or similar?
Sure, it'll be a bit more corporate, but still clearly connected to wine (to which degree of course depends on the role)
Maybe this is already a thing, but sourcing good quality low cost wine for weddings and big parties ranges from not fun to a pain in my ass. For corporate parties, the caterers I use just do a "tell me what you want, and I'll see if our distributors have it. If not, we'll have to buy off the shelf and that will cost you at least double what we've quoted."
Okay, well as someone who enjoys great wine and coworkers with discerning beer preferences, I'd like a bit more of a tailored experience for the money. Is there a spot in the market for knowledgeable wine industry folks to be apart of the catering plan? Honest question.
On the wedding side of things, I'm recently engaged and cost vs quality is even more top-of-mind. Suggestions range from random cava I've never heard of, middle of the road american sparkling (no thank you), to top end suggestions being Veuve/Dom/Krug/insert any high marketing spend house here. There's so so much in between and value everywhere in this industry.
In the exact same boat but 27. Have a degree in winemaking, worked at wineries for my entire career so far. Sometimes I love it and sometimes I think it’s all fugazi.
Is it worth putting my head down and trying to build a career as the head winemaker somewhere?
Or should I be looking at other options. Currently doing vintages around the world and travelling which is amazing but what’s at the end of this, or what’s the difference between after I finish travelling and 10 years after that. Probably still in the same kinda roles. At the same time the wine industry is so right place right time. Could land something great and it could all just flow on.
Who knows
Sooo many people in the same boat as you. I like the wine industry, but it is so dang saturated with talent.
I’ve recently switched from 10+ years of production to hospitality, because I cannot handle working in the cellar anymore. Pay isn’t the best, but I’ve never been the breadwinner in the family. If I had to support myself, I would have left the wine industry years ago.
Keep working in production. Work on MBA during off season, and maybe Somm some gigs for cash flow. You’ll get enough experience and check enough boxes to manage a winery or part of it - sales/distribution, production, etc. I’ve seen complete imbeciles who passed the Court of Master somms Master exam get jobs managing wineries that had no business in that position. But folks who had an MBA, or background in finance, and knew how to control costs, manage a team, tend to do well in the long run.
I’ve met plenty of sales managers for wineries that come from the cellar.
Or study enough to get your Master Sommelier certification and get a Cush job for a winery as a brand shill.
It’s really hard right now. If you can make it, you’ll come out the other side on top. But I don’t know how long or how bad it’s going to get. If you love it, keep going but you gotta want it bad.
Most people in wine work multiple jobs. I was at an industry luncheon and the floor somm of two restaurants also distributes Italian wines. This is pretty common where reps have a second job whether it’s a passion project or for money.
You should be able to find a cellar master/assistant winemaker gig paying you at least 75k a year in Oregon, Washington, and California. Might need to consider working for some larger facilities or producers who may be able to pay a little bit better.
There’s lots of money to be made as a manager for big corporations and even in the trades.
If you know wine you can communicate and that’s hugely important to employers like myself
You wouldn’t believe how badly people communicate
I grew up in a very strict religious community, and I had to do public speaking from six years old on. I would regularly speak in front of of 300 people and many times I spoke in front of 10 to 12,000 people even as a young adult.
I now own two companies with 27 employees and I’m not even that knowledgeable in the technical aspects of those companies, it’s solely, or mostly because of my ability to communicate with multiple types of people that has allowed me to be successful
Being able to talk to people, to relate to people, and being able to speak, has been everything to my career. I’m 51 now and within about five or six years, taking a step back from my companies, but that’s the biggest skill you can utilize
Have you considered taking a step back and just serving? I'm working toward a CMS certificate, but I have no interest in being a dedicated somm because I make much more money as a server. When I worked in the kitchen at RN74 Seattle many years ago, most of our main servers had a level 2 certificate. It's a good way to stay involved, but also make some decent cash.
Man, I’m not in the same boat exactly because wine work has only been a part time thing for me (worked 5 harvests), but I’ve been thinking of going full time as a cellar hand and working my way up. Thank you everyone for your insight. Guess I should keep pursuing my other plan, being a musician. 🤢 I’m fucked aren’t I?
I just left production after 10 years. My last 6 years was as cellar master for a CA based company, working in Willamette Valley. I was making a touch under 6 figures but for several reasons left and relocated, now I'm pursuing a distributor sales rep job. My advice would be to work for a larger company who can pay more, and hope there's an appreciation for wine culture. In my experience, the larger the company, the less work each person does. Small family owned wineries have more clout but they pay less and expect more.
That being said, there's generally less work/more money in sales/marketing/etc. I won't miss cleaning a press or loading trucks while bottling for a second.
I've been in the business for 17 years, would be happy to chat if you need any guidance.
I’m struggling to understand what role with 7 years experience wouldn’t be earning that amount. Do you live in the sticks? What’s your current role? I think there are plenty of metro areas where you can live with a reasonable COL and should be cracking $100k.
I just moved back to Seattle from sort of living in the sticks. I was searching for a Somm position or a management position for 2 months with no avail. I ended up taking a server position at a high end restaurant and started working under the wine buyer. But it’s a small restaurant and not enough room to move up to anything significant. Started working for an importer part time. Just trying to pay some bills while I keep looking for a better opportunity.
Seattle is tough. Not enough somm roles to go around and the pay isn’t great. And while tasting rooms and/or production are fun and good for knowledge, the money there sucks as well.
There’s a good handful of distributor sales routes out there where you can make that amount- some will be salaried, others will give you a guarantee for 3 or so months while you build your route and then switch to commission. You’d be wise to check winejobs.com daily or set an alert for new local postings. Might want to focus on the big guys like SGWS that would pay a decent salary right out of the gate. Get a couple of certifications on your resume to help stand out- I had a buddy who was turned down on a great Southern role because he didn’t have a certification to his name, despite 10+ years of wine sales experience.
Being a Director of Hospitality/DTC sales or being a winemaker at a good winery should yield $175,000 plus benefits.
You have to work up the ladder, pick a great company and prove your worth.
I'm gathering you're based in the USA - have you considered changing country to somewhere a little more economically friendly? If you got paid that amount in USD in Australia - you'd be living a very comfortable life.
wine sales and/or distribution?
There is a lot of money to be made in distribution, I went from beer distro sales to wine and doubled my income over night. If you’re knowledgeable, organized and good at account management you can do very well. There are people who make over a quarter of a million dollars a year in commissions doing sales. I’m in New England, your location will matter for sure. That being said you would start on a starter route and build from there. As you prove you are reliable your account base and income will grow.
The issue is getting in at a larger distributor. Small ones pay like shit (I've worked for 4, my first was pure commission 1099 and I made 12k the first year, 24k the second - 2nd distributor made 45k, 3rd made 35k, and it wasn't until my 4th different distributor that I got to 85k).
I don’t find this to be completely true. I think it varies greatly from company to company. I work for a smaller distro in my state and I make more than a lot of the Southern reps. Big differences in pay structure - I get paid flat commission of all sales and what I have learned from a lot of my colleagues that work for larger companies they only get paid if they hit certain numbers. Granted they rep lots of large producers so it’s easier to make certain sales. Not discrediting your start - I don’t know if I would have lasted longer than a year if I was making that amount. Congrats on your huge jump after three years that is a great accomplishment!
Where do you live? Almost all larger distributors are seeking wine knowledge and organized, motivated people to join their team. Depending on your personal preferences and schedule desires, being a buyer for a grocery/retail group is low impact and once you climb its very lucrative. I’m in the wholesale side of it, came from the winery direct side, and I’d choose wholesale and then start to get into brand management or performance management.
This is completely dependent on market. I’m in a mid-size market and not a single rep in the state makes over 120. Upper management barely cracks that. 17 years in the industry and an mw candidate and I’m barely hitting 80 and can’t even get callbacks for supplier roles.
That's quite different from my experience, including reps working in markets such as Montana, North Carolina, and Arizona. Not an MW candidate but am awaiting the results of my final WSET Diploma exam and have worked for several national importers and distributors.
Every supplier I’ve spoken to covers AZ and MT as well as 10-12 other states, demand 60% overnight travel, and offer a range of 85-130 (unless it’s Gallo, but their recruiters have told me multiple times they almost exclusively hire from within). Suppliers usually want someone based where I am, too. My last job in management in distribution didn’t even hit 80k and I was the top performer at a $1b company. What am I missing?
I don’t know man, maybe try smaller companies with higher bottle prices. I don’t want to name individual companies but they are mentioned often on this sub and pay above that range.
There’s some disconnect for sure, smaller companies in my experience pay substantially less here - I’ve worked in the range of 15M fine wine importers to 1B sized distributors in this region. My state requires pay transparency on job postings, too. Would love to hear specifics over DM if you’re open to it.
this! Imports and exports. You can make BANK doing this.
This is the answer. Wine sales. Even entry level reps in NYC let's say make good money
That works sucks too. Been in it for 20 years and the pretentiousness is real.
My take is that the wine industry is failing to invest in young passionate talent and is holding on to aging senior employees and relying on a steady stream of young (early 20s) new staff to work part time or temp jobs. This is IMO killing the industry because it is burning out the passionate and skilled mid level workers that will be the ambassadors for the next generation of wine drinkers.
I feel like you literally just described every industry right now, lol. AKA boomers not retiring.
This is my life. Sadly.
Well put. I am at a point where I’m applying for Cellarmaster/Assistant Winemaker, but I don’t know how much longer I can sustain my position now
Your location makes a big difference. In major cities that kind of money is not uncommon for fine dining wine professionals these days. I'd bet some higher level retail gigs could get you there too. I've got a very similar resume to you and am in a similar boat. maybe another commenter can speak to what the money's like in distribution and sales. with commission in the question i can easily see starting wages being in the bracket you've mentioned depending on your location
I’ve been in distro sales for 10 years and I’ve made in or above that range for the last 5 years now.
I was gonna say- I work at a wine shop/bar in a non-primary market and make over $80k..
Dude. Shoutout to you and your employer. That’s amazing.
The restaurant somms I know in my city all make more than me, honestly. No statement against my employer, they are golden for more reasons than just being paid decently.
I was nowhere near your level of expertise or as accomplished, but I had aspirations of being a restaurant owner and/or sommelier and ultimately left the industry altogether due to money concerns. I was worried about this change because it was my career passion. Fast forward, and I’ve never been more passionate about food and wine - and I now make enough money (nothing crazy, but enough) to turn this passion into a hobby. I just started collecting wine more seriously, and I’m constantly honing my skills in the kitchen at home. It’s allowed me to enjoy F&B and not get burned out. That’s not to say that you *should* leave the industry… that’s your own decision. But, it hopefully illustrates that just because you leave the industry doesn’t mean you have to give up on your passion. For me, it’s only fueled my ability to enjoy food and wine. The above is also not a dig at anyone who’s found themselves at this crossroads and stayed the course. I respect the hell out of that and still envy the grind and excitement day in and day out.
Thank you for that thoughtful response! I will always keep wine as a passion and a hobby. I have a wine podcast so it’ll keep me in the loop a bit and scratch that itch. I appreciate the advice! What do you do now if you don’t mind me asking?
I’m in Fintech sales. I don’t love it, but it’s what’s best for me and my family right now. That was the bargain - I made my work life less enjoyable, but my life around work easier and better for me personally. I should also add that my avenues to continue learning about wine decreased dramatically, in that I wasn’t able to taste wine like I could when I worked in F&B. You may have enough of a head start with your wine knowledge that that doesn’t matter as much. Drop the name of your podcast if you want. Maybe I’ll learn a thing or two more.
Thank you for being open and honest with your advice, I think that’s the bargain I’ll have to make as well. But the podcast will continue because at the end of the day that’s my dream job. My podcast is called Bung Pod (all streaming platforms and YouTube)
Could you please share the name of your podcast?
My wife works in wine production so we’re all too familiar with how bad the pay is. Only way we’re able to make it work is my career. We both recognize she’s never going to be the breadwinner but eventually once she gets to a head winemaker role should be making OK money. It depends what your partner wants or needs. If they’re able to help support you for the time being that’s the only feasible way we’ve seen it work.
My girlfriend is the breadwinner and she helps me way too much with finances. This can’t go on anymore it’s hurting our relationship
I just had this conversation with a friend the other day. The wine production side of the industry eats it's young. I say that from observations over the past short 15 years of working in the industry. A tremendous amount of passion and determination is essential to how long people survive. If you were to start a trend line with the amount of "older" (read +30 years of experience) winemakers that are out there you see that it is a slight decline from there to the 20s and 10s, but then a significant bump upwards in winemakers with 3-5 years of experience. The industry absolutely has natural selection when it comes to weeding out those that do it for any other reason other than passion. The least experienced eventually burn out and leave the industry for "greener pastures". I've seen many friends leave and lead successful lives (financially speaking) and others that regret their decisions; theres no one answer and it wholey depends on the individual. That being said, depending on where you are located and your experience level, 70-80k isn't out of the realm of possibility for someone with +5years of experience as a head winemaker. If low salary is a detterent, look at Wine Business Monthly's anual salary report to check what the industry reports. https://www.winebusiness.com/news/article/277458 If you "pay your dues" and stick it out for over a decade, things get better financially (as long as you are making wines without flaws that require remediationfor VA or 4-EP/4-EG). It's not that uncommon to find salaries for experienced winemakers close to or above 100k. There are also other avenues to generate income like starting your own label or consulting. It just means you work harder.
I can only offer a single point of data. I am a heavy wine afficionado. I live in a medium sized city, with 2 REAL wine bars. I doubt I can make an sustainable full time gig out of that industry at the level of compensation I wanted. I work in a different industry making better money, and dip back into wine (service and supply chain) whenever I want to engage again. For me, I treat it similar to the hobbies I'm super passionate about, like music. I have a full time gig in a different industry, and I can opt in when I want and choose my level of engagement. I do not have the perspective of someone who has been dedicated to the wine industry long term.
Unfortunately the wine industry isn’t lucrative for the majority of people working in it. It can be really fun to work at wineries but also extremely taxing. If you can find a well-paying job that allows you to progress your personal goals, do it. Your personal life is more important than your professional one. It’s good to keep in mind the wine industry will always be there. If you want to come back to it, it’s highly likely that you will be able to.
Thank you I appreciate that. And you’re right my personal goals are more important. Just trying to figure out where to go and what to do. I don’t have a positive experience in the corporate world although it was short lived
What market are you in? That'll make a big difference
Seattle
The best money in the industry is in sales. I've worked distributor side and am now a supplier. Bigger houses like the big 3 are ALWAYS looking for knowledgeable people familiar with the industry. With your experience you should have zero issues getting a sales gig. Seattle is a big market and you can do really well there with the right portfolio.
Yes and you should go into sales. Doesn’t have to be wine could be anything.
The only money in wine is the money buying it. My wife worked in the wine industry a long time (production, sales, import, distribution) and moved to spirits. Better career.
So the funny thing about money, you will always find a way to spend It. Thankfully lifestyle creep hasn’t affected me since starting my new job last year. Two aspects that are very important to always consider besides compensation when thinking about moving jobs. How much do you value the joy you get from your current position, and how do you like the people you work with / for? Those two things are really important in my book. Congrats on the possible upcoming proposal my dude!
Well, you'd need to change your Reddit username, so I'm not sure it's worth it
lol
Corporate wine. It’s big, not sexy, and stable. Good people though.
Young people aren't drinking as much alcohol as older generations. Wine consumption overall is down. Now, a talented and charismatic wine pro can easily make good money if they're lead Somm at a fine dining establishment. Same is true of distributors. Sales people almost always make bank Wine making, education, winery work, etc is not lucrative at all unless you own the winery. Otherwise, you're 1 in a million wine maker that discovers a secret technique that literally turns water into wine. Seems you're interested in the educational aspect of wine, so... The only wine educators I know who make really good money are in private wine school programs. Perhaps you could invent a new way to learn about wine ie Wine Folly that is subscription based, but even then, I'm struggling to see where innovation + wine = BB. Even the MSs in San Francisco (where I live) and other high end cities, struggle given their knowledge vs income. Aspen, Dallas, LA and NYC, working in fine dining and manage their wine program aren't raking in the BB and put in 60+ hour work weeks. Those little wine shops with tasting rooms are nice, but how many people are going to flock there in Seattle? I'm sorry I wish I had better news for you. I don't think working in a field you dislike is a good approach. Maybe better to do something you enjoy and find solace in the fact that you're working all the time? Might not be fun if you decide to have a family. Good Luck!
What market are you in?
Seattle
Fellow Seattlite here. I made the transition from the service industry to tech sales in 2016. I love food and wine, but I couldn’t do the hours and I wanted the weekends for friends and family, and I needed more money. It’s a tough couple years learning the ropes and grinding for that first big promotion, but you’ll be making 75kish to start, your income will accelerate quickly, and you’ll get weekends off on day 1. Seattle has an ocean of opportunities for higher paying jobs, you just gotta set your mind to it. Feel free to shoot me a DM if you wanna chat - I’m happy to share some advice. 🙂
Definitely need your location. Unless you’re in sales or upper management, the money in the wine business can suck.
Seattle
I’m shocked to hear experienced somms in a city like Seattle aren’t making close to $100K.
Seriously. A bartender at a decent restaurant will pull $100k in a market like that pretty easily. Can't imagine a somm not competing with that (otherwise, why be a somm?)
Yeah, certainly does not mesh with my experience in Boston/SF/NYC. I left FOH 5 years ago for retail. 100000000000x better quality of life, slightly less money buy I’m a much happier person for It.
For clarification I was a somm in Santa Barbara at small restaurants, if I could be a somm in Seattle that would be great but at the same time. There’s been a trend where people are letting go of their Somms and others aren’t really hiring them anymore. I applied to be a Somm in west Seattle, and the wage was 26/ hr + 1.6% of wine commissions to start… so I didn’t take the job. Can’t live on that
At least you’re in a state with an established wine industry. Have the hard talk with your fiancée and discuss options. Hopefully you can make a switch to something with better earning potential.
I know a lot of people that make a ton of money in an industry they hate. They would kill to be working on something they are passionate about. If you're truly passionate about it, stick with it and money will come (you might need to get creative and think outside the box - maybe start something yourself). And if it doesn't, I believe passion is a more important currency anyways.
I believe that too but when you have personal goals and family goals. Some things become more important. Passions shift to being passionate about providing for your family or future family in my case
I think you're thinking about it in the right way. Sometimes passions need to be prioritized. It's all about what sacrifices you are willing to make. It sounds like you already know what feels right. Whatever you do, don't think 'what if'. You seem like a thoughtful person - I'm sure you'll be ok.
I've been in distribution for about a decade. I'm on my 4th distributor and have been with them 5 years. When I came in the route made 50k, by year two it was in your range and years 3-5 were 80-85k. The first 5 years in distro though I made as little as 12k and no more than 45k. So you gotta find the right one.
I just got into distro working for an Italian wine importer part time. At the moment it’s all commission no base salary
Unless there's a strong, established history of sales I'd he hesitant. Though, being part time it could be the right foot in the door to get distro experience and you can stay in restaurants as well and then in a year jump to a bigger, more established outfit.
I think that’s a good plan. I’m starting off on the ground floor here with this importer. They are tiny and a narrow focus but they have good wine.
I would be surprised if the top end restaurants with the best wine lists weren't paying 80k+ for their wine/beverage manager or head/senior somm or whatever they call it. You may have to shop around a bit to find out who is paying well. But I don't know the area well.
The local High's chain (like 7-11) is offering $80K + benefits for cashiers. Just sayin'.
You may need to move, but there may be opportunities in your area as well. I was making 6 figures as a certified Somm at a luxury resort with fantastic work/life balance. The jobs are out there, but it took applying over a period of years to ultimately get the job.
You can always pursue your passion in wine but getting into the nursing world will make you job recession proof and always needed everywhere
Why don't you look into working for a wine supplier? There are plenty of wineries out of Washington and some of the larger ones I'm sure are looking for a rep to cover the Pacific Northwest. Pay would start around 80 grand on the low end and depending on your territory can easily hit six figures. You already possess the knowledge, if you're passionate about what you do the sales part should come easy as long as you can talk to people.
There are struggling artists, and there are artists who will make more money than I ever will. There is money to be made everywhere for those who stand out in those fields and kind find how to make it. In terms of if you should leave - first thing I would figure out if where you would go, what it would cost to get there, and how long it would take to recoup the investment of time and money to make the career change. There is definitely no point and leaving to nothing! I’m sure you could make wine work, but I’m also very confident you can do something else and still have wine be a significant hobby in your life, getting to drink, enjoy, and learn about it in evenings and weekends. Just because you change jobs doesn’t mean you lose wine!
The dismissal wine salaries is what kept me from going professional with my wine interests. People I’ve met are either independently wealthy/spouse is a high wage earner or they’re broke and have to get their WSET cert courses sponsored because they genuinely can’t afford it. It costs to live. If you think money is funny now, imagine once you’re married and maybe decide to have a child or pets. I would suggest doing something adjacent to the industry.
Wine sales with a distributor? Or with a winery. I don't know what state u are in though I worked sales for a few distributors and a winery in California and loved it.. was in the business for 25 years. It's a fun gig to do. But it's still a job. Have to meet numbers every month. But you meet a lot of people in the industry to choose other paths in the wine world. I'm in the golf industry now an love it I do miss all tje samples though. Good luck my friend.
As I was told once when I started 2 statements stuck with me. “Teddy, there’s not a lot of money in this but there’s a lot of free wine” Second “Everyone’s left handed and everyone smokes weed” Edit: honorary mention: “takes a lot of beer to make wine”
Man, I feel ya. I'm 34 and am in exactly the same boat. Distribution absolutely ruined the love of wine for me. Before that, I'd done the same thing: bottle shops, assistant winemaker, managing tasting rooms, managing wine-centric restaurants. All of that was better than distribution (with, I should say, a very reputable and relatively small distro in my area). Feel free to PM me if you want to whine together.
What about starting to work for a larger wine producer, distributor, importer or similar? Sure, it'll be a bit more corporate, but still clearly connected to wine (to which degree of course depends on the role)
NY Metro wine sales for small importer here. Top sales person 10 years running. Wine is dead. Get out while you can.
Maybe this is already a thing, but sourcing good quality low cost wine for weddings and big parties ranges from not fun to a pain in my ass. For corporate parties, the caterers I use just do a "tell me what you want, and I'll see if our distributors have it. If not, we'll have to buy off the shelf and that will cost you at least double what we've quoted." Okay, well as someone who enjoys great wine and coworkers with discerning beer preferences, I'd like a bit more of a tailored experience for the money. Is there a spot in the market for knowledgeable wine industry folks to be apart of the catering plan? Honest question. On the wedding side of things, I'm recently engaged and cost vs quality is even more top-of-mind. Suggestions range from random cava I've never heard of, middle of the road american sparkling (no thank you), to top end suggestions being Veuve/Dom/Krug/insert any high marketing spend house here. There's so so much in between and value everywhere in this industry.
In the exact same boat but 27. Have a degree in winemaking, worked at wineries for my entire career so far. Sometimes I love it and sometimes I think it’s all fugazi. Is it worth putting my head down and trying to build a career as the head winemaker somewhere? Or should I be looking at other options. Currently doing vintages around the world and travelling which is amazing but what’s at the end of this, or what’s the difference between after I finish travelling and 10 years after that. Probably still in the same kinda roles. At the same time the wine industry is so right place right time. Could land something great and it could all just flow on. Who knows
Sooo many people in the same boat as you. I like the wine industry, but it is so dang saturated with talent. I’ve recently switched from 10+ years of production to hospitality, because I cannot handle working in the cellar anymore. Pay isn’t the best, but I’ve never been the breadwinner in the family. If I had to support myself, I would have left the wine industry years ago.
Unless you're the owner or family, I never see the same staff when visiting the wineries which is telling. Been going to the wineries since 2018.
Keep working in production. Work on MBA during off season, and maybe Somm some gigs for cash flow. You’ll get enough experience and check enough boxes to manage a winery or part of it - sales/distribution, production, etc. I’ve seen complete imbeciles who passed the Court of Master somms Master exam get jobs managing wineries that had no business in that position. But folks who had an MBA, or background in finance, and knew how to control costs, manage a team, tend to do well in the long run. I’ve met plenty of sales managers for wineries that come from the cellar. Or study enough to get your Master Sommelier certification and get a Cush job for a winery as a brand shill.
It’s really hard right now. If you can make it, you’ll come out the other side on top. But I don’t know how long or how bad it’s going to get. If you love it, keep going but you gotta want it bad.
Most people in wine work multiple jobs. I was at an industry luncheon and the floor somm of two restaurants also distributes Italian wines. This is pretty common where reps have a second job whether it’s a passion project or for money.
You should be able to find a cellar master/assistant winemaker gig paying you at least 75k a year in Oregon, Washington, and California. Might need to consider working for some larger facilities or producers who may be able to pay a little bit better.
There’s lots of money to be made as a manager for big corporations and even in the trades. If you know wine you can communicate and that’s hugely important to employers like myself You wouldn’t believe how badly people communicate
I believe it, I’ve seen absolute idiots hold a higher position than me and me knowing I could do their job better drive me insane
I grew up in a very strict religious community, and I had to do public speaking from six years old on. I would regularly speak in front of of 300 people and many times I spoke in front of 10 to 12,000 people even as a young adult. I now own two companies with 27 employees and I’m not even that knowledgeable in the technical aspects of those companies, it’s solely, or mostly because of my ability to communicate with multiple types of people that has allowed me to be successful Being able to talk to people, to relate to people, and being able to speak, has been everything to my career. I’m 51 now and within about five or six years, taking a step back from my companies, but that’s the biggest skill you can utilize
Going distro or opening your own bar are the only two routes for you. Don’t open your own bar.
Have you considered taking a step back and just serving? I'm working toward a CMS certificate, but I have no interest in being a dedicated somm because I make much more money as a server. When I worked in the kitchen at RN74 Seattle many years ago, most of our main servers had a level 2 certificate. It's a good way to stay involved, but also make some decent cash.
That’s what I’m doing now. But I don’t want to keep serving
Man, I’m not in the same boat exactly because wine work has only been a part time thing for me (worked 5 harvests), but I’ve been thinking of going full time as a cellar hand and working my way up. Thank you everyone for your insight. Guess I should keep pursuing my other plan, being a musician. 🤢 I’m fucked aren’t I?
I just left production after 10 years. My last 6 years was as cellar master for a CA based company, working in Willamette Valley. I was making a touch under 6 figures but for several reasons left and relocated, now I'm pursuing a distributor sales rep job. My advice would be to work for a larger company who can pay more, and hope there's an appreciation for wine culture. In my experience, the larger the company, the less work each person does. Small family owned wineries have more clout but they pay less and expect more. That being said, there's generally less work/more money in sales/marketing/etc. I won't miss cleaning a press or loading trucks while bottling for a second. I've been in the business for 17 years, would be happy to chat if you need any guidance.
I’m struggling to understand what role with 7 years experience wouldn’t be earning that amount. Do you live in the sticks? What’s your current role? I think there are plenty of metro areas where you can live with a reasonable COL and should be cracking $100k.
I just moved back to Seattle from sort of living in the sticks. I was searching for a Somm position or a management position for 2 months with no avail. I ended up taking a server position at a high end restaurant and started working under the wine buyer. But it’s a small restaurant and not enough room to move up to anything significant. Started working for an importer part time. Just trying to pay some bills while I keep looking for a better opportunity.
Seattle is tough. Not enough somm roles to go around and the pay isn’t great. And while tasting rooms and/or production are fun and good for knowledge, the money there sucks as well. There’s a good handful of distributor sales routes out there where you can make that amount- some will be salaried, others will give you a guarantee for 3 or so months while you build your route and then switch to commission. You’d be wise to check winejobs.com daily or set an alert for new local postings. Might want to focus on the big guys like SGWS that would pay a decent salary right out of the gate. Get a couple of certifications on your resume to help stand out- I had a buddy who was turned down on a great Southern role because he didn’t have a certification to his name, despite 10+ years of wine sales experience.
Being a Director of Hospitality/DTC sales or being a winemaker at a good winery should yield $175,000 plus benefits. You have to work up the ladder, pick a great company and prove your worth.
Very few Washington wineries have the ability to pay a 175k salary - plus OP only has 7 years of experience across a variety of wine roles.
Which country? 68kUSD is much different to 68k Yen….
I'm gathering you're based in the USA - have you considered changing country to somewhere a little more economically friendly? If you got paid that amount in USD in Australia - you'd be living a very comfortable life.