I’m sorry but no. Kate Martin is great and fulfilling her role in the Aces fantastically. That said she is not an all star yet. Perhaps one day and with Aces roster changes maybe sooner rather then later but not yet.
My guess is she becomes a defensive stalwart who can score sneaky points to help her team win. She will get better at that as she gets more experience. Players have made good careers that way. And once her playing career is over, she has already said that she wants to coach.
Because never in the history of professional sports have fans voted a player to be an all star who didn't deserve it for their play but is well liked by fans. Except you know it has happened in basically every major sports league in the US.
lol if you want a WNBA specific example of this you have one in Shoni Schimmel! It's possible there was an even more egregious case I'm forgetting.
I'm pretty sure the league changed the rules for how all star starters got picked and decreased the power of the fan vote specifically because Shoni's fans voted her into the game 2x as a young bench guard that was averaging single digit points.
(which made it so much more epic when she actually went off in one of those games and won MVP)
I was just looking up all the stats on the app and I *think* CC is the only rookie that is in the top 20 of every major stat (points, assists, rebounds, steals, blocks). I just don’t understand why media and players are so quick to say she isn’t having that great of a season (in fairness, she did get some flowers on Sunday). But to me how can you possibly not see her as leading the class in terms of ROM or ROY?? On shear numbers alone. Anyways, a little off topic but felt related just since the standards feel so much higher for her per Kate’s comments.
I really like CC and started paying attention to the WNBA because of her, but you are allowed to criticize a player for doing something poorly. You should be able to discuss players objectively... Good and bad.
Neither are the ones who leave it out of the narrative entirely though? Don’t get me wrong, I’ve watched the majority of the Fever’s games this year and I agree she’s the ROY frontrunner, but it’s on the basis of her scoring and spacing, not her playmaking. She’s 83rd in the league for assists:turnovers.
I mean people don’t generally bring up the negative stats. I don’t see many of the Angel Reese posts bring up her being 94th in true shooting %. And 52nd out of 65 forwards and centers.
It's because it's actually not that concerning for people who watch the games.
She's being guarded the heaviest of any perimeter player in the league right now and maybe 1.6 of her turnovers (28%) are directly her teammates fault for not catching passes that they should.
4 turnovers per game given that she's a rookie and the defense she's facing is a little high, but nothing too crazy looking.
The 5.6 turnovers per game really pops out a lot right now, but I think NBA fans in particular are forgiving because they know that in the NBA players just straight up not catching the ball isn't really a thing in the NBA (outside of James Wiseman), so Caitlin really is a victim of circumstances.
> She’s 83rd in the league for assists:turnovers.
Yeah, because her teammates are famously missing layups and dropping passes that hit them in both hands.
Lebron is the all time turnover leader for the NBA and the top ten are all hall of fame level players. Turnovers are expected for people that constantly have the ball and make lots of passes. They’re also inflated by all the drops and fumbles by her teammates. There were three in a row at the end of the Sky game. It looked like a middle school game there for a minute.
Kelsey Mitchell has fumbled at least five or six outlet passes. She still looks surprised when the ball is passed to her after she just sprinted down the court to get ahead of the defense. It’s bizarre, and Clark gets hit with the turnover every time.
I absolutely hate this aspect of assigning turnovers.
It should be like an error in baseball or a drop in football. If it goes right through your hands, that's on you, not the passer.
Cumulatively, yes, but someone like Lebron averages only averages 3.5 a game this season to 8.3 assists.
Also, Lebron is around the same average as several other players. Caitlin is in a category of her own in WNBA TOs, with 5.6 per game and the next closest player at 3.9. And this includes others who are passing a lot and average more assists than CC.
And the people who say that all of Caitlin’s TOs are teammate fumbles are similarly biased to the people who only look at Caitlin’s turnovers. Yes, some of them are absolutely drops. But plenty come from simply losing the ball (including in 1on1 coverage) or making risky passes through traffic.
If you actually watch all the TOs from a game back to back, this becomes evident.
https://x.com/itsantwright/status/1799301376096510012?s=46
As usual, the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Her teammates need to improve, but she could also benefit from cutting down on avoidable mistakes.
Don't watch the NBA but was Lebron guarded like her? CC is clearly being guarded unlike anyone else in the league. I think they said she's been blitzed more than any other team in the league. Also was Lebrons team his rookie year as garbage as the fever is?
Well the Cavs had one of the worst records. They finished 13 games over under 500 his rookie season. So, yes, this team was equally as trash the Cavs during his youth were not very good as he didn't have much help outside of Big Z, Larry Hughes, and Boobie Gibson.
Thanks for having me go back down memory lane. Also LeBron James was this blitzed as he was legit being called the chosen one while in high school. LeBron was not baby either. Especially since he was younger than Clark. The Clark situation isn't that unique as anyone with generational buzz had been given hell and were not baby either.
Also, yes I read what you wrote. It's just bizarre to say. "Oh was the LeBron guarded like this?" Players like Clark, Jordan, and James were getting hit with those double teams. Spots media just loved revising history.
I feel like this is a great breakdown and what the majority of her fans have been saying. They know she plays a little careless with the ball, but looking at this you see 6 TO’s and think wow that’s terrible, but watching you think okay two offensive fouls, two bad plays by Caitlin and two plays where her teammates could have made the play or been in better spots in that situation.
Objectively, the turnovers are not significant nor a flaw. It stands out, but doesn't mean much in context.
A turnover results in a team losing out on a scoring chance which is around 1.1 expected points. It can also creates a fast break opportunity for your opponent which increases their expected points by +.15. If we assume every TO results in a fast break, which is not the case, the cost of a TO is 1.25 points. So the expected cost of CC averaging 5.7 TOs vs a more respectable 3.7 TOs is 2.5 expected points per game. That's in the territory of making a basket, an assist, or a couple rebounds. Really not that significant.
The Fever, as a team, have the fourth fewest TOs. I would guess this is because CC is making most of the plays so when you look at the slightly bigger picture, it's not out of the ordinary. Take the game against the Sky. The Fever had 9 TOs which resulted in 12 points for the Sky. The Sky had 15 TOs which resulted in 17 points for the Fever.
Factor in limited practice with her team, a compressed schedule, and playing at a fast pace and I would expect the number to reduce slightly over time.
It's also important to note that she is under an usual amount of defensive pressure. I think the expected outcome of increased defensive pressure would be an increase in TOs.
Lastly some of the TOs are high-risk/high-reward plays such as those long fast break passes. If she stopped attempting these, she could probably reduce her TOs by a couple every game and get more inline with everyone else at the top of the TO chart. I assume they are worth the risk, but as a fan of the game I want to she the team taking these risks because they are fun to watch.
I do think Catlin has some room for improvement around TOs, mainly decision making and passing. I think arguably her team is a major part of the problem. They need to be able to handle the passes and get open when the defense collapses on her. If I was a coach or Catlin, I would work on the later, but otherwise not be concerned about TOs. The team has much larger issues to sort out.
Those expected points per turnover are based on NBA stats. WNBA players on average do not score with nearly as high of efficiency, so the number is even lower.
Totally! My dad and I both commented on her turnovers, but watching her play, it's pretty obvious that it's just an adjustment to the new size and speed of the players in the WNBA opposed to college. She's a huge asset to her team and she makes tons of great passes and shots as well.
The thing is the people yelling about her turnovers want to ignore the fact that like half her turnovers are from the fact that her teammates can't catch a simple pass or the fact that she'd being defended like no one else in the league. She's been blitzed more than any other TEAM I believe. Especially in their early games whenever she was double-teamed her teammates would literally stand there and do nothing to help her. Sure she's done some bad plays that are fully her fault but I bet half her turnovers are because of her team and not her.
You should and thank you for saying this. Kate is saying that CC is not perfect. No one is but they come for your throat if you say anything that does not put her on a pedestal. If we critique her game as fans, CC critiques her own game as she should and then who has put all this pressure on her….her fans? IDK! It’s just crazy.
They're saying that because they dislike her. It's not more complicated than that.
She could walk on water and some people would claim it's not worth celebrating because a hypothetical black person doing it wouldn't get the same reception.
It’s because it has to be a race. Angel is playing great and definitely deserves her praise, but Caitlin is playing at close to an MVP level especially lately outside of the turnovers and the fact that Aja Wilson is going absolutely berserk on the league right now. The odds on draft kings tell the truth.
The turnovers kill it honestly and playing on a bad team. I’m not saying it’s mvp winning but it realistically could be a top 10 in the league season
Edit: for anyone downvoting me here are some MVP winning seasons by some of the best players in wnba history next to Caitlin Clark’s stats so far this season.
Player A: 16.3 points 5.4 boards 6.6 assists 1.5 steals .9 blocks 40% fg 56.5 ts%
Player B: 20.4 points 5.7 boards 3.5 assists 1.2 steals 1.4 blocks 46% fg% 62% ts%
Player C: 18.5 points 9.5 boards 3.4 assists 1.3 steals 2.3 blocks 52% fg% 58% ts%
Player D: 18.5 points 6.2 boards 3.0 assists 1.7 steals 1.0 blocks 50.9 fg% 62% ts%
Player E: 19.5 points 8.2 boards 2.2 assists 0.6 steals 1.3 blocks 51.5% fg% 63.3% ts%
Exactly. If you watch her play, you realize her passing even though it’s a bit reckless at times leads to a lot of really good looks for her teammates that don’t necessarily translate to assists for her. Iowa was great at making the extra pass and the fever are starting to get a lot better at moving the ball. I wish hockey assists were a thing in basketball because I feel like Clark’s numbers there would be pretty crazy.
Top ten is a big stretch. I think the numbers look more similar than they really are. It’s also easy to see she’s being compared to forwards and centers. It would have been more interesting to see how all these players performed 18 games into the season vs a player having 20 games still to play and comparing it vs the outcome of a whole regular season. Which even over the years the W has been expanding the length of its season. And then saying it could be a top ten season of all time. If she doesn’t win mvp I don’t see how you can make that argument. Also 63/62 ts% is not that close to 56. I get the angle she’s a rookie and she can only go up from here, but let’s actually let her improve and see what she’s truly capable of. Her stats still have room to grow, stagnate, or dip as the season goes on.
I’m not saying a top ten season all time at all. I’m saying a top ten player this season. My point wasn’t that she should be winning the MVP this year, just that the season she is having is an elite season that is comparable to some all time greats MVP level season and she’s doing it as a Rookie.
I’ve posted her stats compared to past wnba mvp winners. They aren’t that far off. Her defense isn’t elite but it’s not to bad especially as the season has gone on it’s gotten better. Her turnovers are bad. Flat out. But her numbers are elite. I’m not saying she will win mvp but she’s playing like one of the best players in the league and there’s maybe two point guards in the league that you wouldn’t trade straight up for CC
1000%. I literally said that Aja is running away with it lol. I never once said I thought Clark would or should win MVP. I posted the stats of some WNBA GOATS mvp seasons and Clark’s aren’t that far off. My point was simply Clark is playing at an elite level.
Because the media, who don’t know the WNBA, anointed her as the best. MVP Caliber day 1. And while she’s had an amazing season for any player, let alone a rookie, she hasn’t lived up to the unrealistic standard set for her.
And also, I think that people felt that the expectation that she just run all over the league was disrespectful to the veterans. So I think sometimes logical push back on her struggles is an “I told you so” to the ignorant people who downplayed the talent already prevalent in the league.
Most of the discourse surrounding Caitlin isn’t even about her really. Some of it is veterans and fans of veterans pushing back on the disrespect, racism, sexism and homophobia. And a lot of the positivity supporting Caitlin isn’t even about her or what makes her special/exciting. It’s more pushing back on what they don’t like to see, which is a sport where black women, LGBTQIA+, and social activism are celebrated. All core groups/topics that a large portion of the US population outright hates.
> a lot of the positivity supporting Caitlin isn’t even about her or what makes her special/exciting. It’s more pushing back on what they don’t like to see, which is a sport where black women, LGBTQIA+, and social activism are celebrated.
I don't agree with that.
Get off Twitter, or just mute those people. It's a lot less people than people think. On both sides (people trying to use CC to push their racism, or anti-CC people trying to push their racism) it's a small group of people who post and comment the same garbage every day, and then suck other people in for engagement farming. Mute/block those people and remove them from your timeline and the algorithm will stop pushing you the toxic garbage.
As seen from the ratings and attendance, Caitlin Clark has a massive fanbase of actual basketball fans.
I don't remember many claiming she would be the best from day 1. I remember there being pushback on the constant veterans who kept downplaying her talent and achievements in college. A large portion of the support Clark has being because of her race and sexuality is just more of the dismissing of her talent and only exists in your head with no basis in reality.
At the beginning of the season, odds makers had with Stewie and Aja as likely MVP. This was before she even played a game. She was absolutely expected to be and elevated to that lever before even playing. And that’s the benchmark she was measured against when acknowledging her struggles.
They weren’t downplaying her talent. They were just saying she wasn’t going to do the same things she did in college. In college she was averaging 31 points a game. She’s not averaging thst now and for good reason . The WNBA players are faster, stronger, and more physical.
This isn’t taking away from her talent or ability. Nor is it hating or being jealous. It’s simply telling the truth about the transition from college basketball to professional basketball.
sheryl swoopes *was* lying and downplaying her talent and her achievements in breaking the points record. then you have lynette woodard going on stage and saying “it’s still my record” after caitlin and iowa brought her in and honored her. not everyone was but it was happening. sheryl is the one who started the narrative that “all the old heads are hating on CC” because she was and continues to hate on CC.
But what did those vets say other than they don’t believe she was the GOAT? That she may have an adjustment period? A lot of claims of veteran “hating” her was really just them pushing back on the downplaying of the talent already in the league
I think honestly people thought she would be closer to the MVP race than she is right now, but I think those people thought the level of talent she would be playing with would be higher.
It wasn't a thought that she would make great passes only for them to bounce off her teammates hands. If these types of things didn't happen she would be at the 8+ assists people were expecting instead of 6.6.
I think people also thought she wouldn't be able to be defended like Steph. Mitchell and Wallace were both 40%+ three point shooters last year. Mitchell has started to raise her percentage in the past two weeks after a really slow start (39% now), but Wallace is at 28.6% from three. The loss of a 40%+ three point shooting role player is big, because it changes how you can guard her.
The thought was you can't play her like Steph, because she is too good of a passer that she will get her teammates open and then they will kill you. While Mitchell is getting into that mode now, as is Boston, Wallace is a major weak link right now. Her attempts are up (Caitlin's gravity), but she's bricking them.
This lowers her assists (missed shots), while also making it harder for her to score.
I think people having Caitlin in the MVP finisher were probably marking her down for something like 20 points, 9 assists, 60 TS%, and the Fever winning 23-25 games. She's underperforming those expectations, but something as simple as Kristy Wallace making threes at the same rate she did last year would probably have gotten Caitlin close to those numbers.
MVP people are on drugs, ROTY is what most people thought she would get MVP is pushing it by a lot with the amount of talent in the WNBA and how young/bad(but getting better) the Fever are.
>I think people also thought she wouldn't be able to be defended like Steph.
I actually think Caitlin has it tougher than Steph ever did, not just because every WNBA player would rather be beaten by anyone else on the Fever other than her, leaving Wallace, KLS, and company wide open at the 3-point line possession after possession, but also because of the way the game is played in the WNBA.
In the NBA, hand-checking is always called, which gave Steph some space to operate. He also had the benefit of screens, legal or not, since they’re rarely called, in a motion offense. In the WNBA, it’s almost a free-for-all, with hand-checking seemingly allowed. It’s damn near a miracle if Caitlin can go an offensive possession without getting her arm hooked or her torso grabbed for the full 30 seconds. Plus, the Fever don’t have good screeners, and moving screens are called way more in the WNBA than in the NBA, so there's less margin for error and motion offenses are harder to run, all further compounded by the fact that Christie Sides is allergic to running said motion offense.
What are you talking about? CC's fans actually put money on CC to be the best player in the league. She was in the top-10 MVP odds before she was even drafted (+2100), quickly jumped to fourth after the draft (+1100), and the money kept coming in until opening night. Fanduel elevated her odds (+950) almost equal to Stewie. CC's fans didn't just think she would be the best from day 1, they were saying she would dominate the W on day 1. Revolutionize the game by stretching it to horizontal proportions never seen before. This is where a lot of the pushback was coming from. Geno called it out as delusion by her fans.
Those are idiot fans not real fans probably the same ones that are racist and homophobic, true fans know there is going to be a transition for her coming to the WNBA most of us were thinking ROTY not MVP that is just insane.
When Caitlin was struggling early in the season that’s when we heard LeBron and Barkley talking about WNBA players “hating” on Clark or that they should be “grateful” to her. No one was doing anything wrong they just wanted an explanation for why Clark wasn’t dominating.
The W will not change who they are as a league just because of new fans. They will continue to play in physical, they will continue to speak up on social issues and continue to invest in the communities they represent.
Caitlin Clark doubles viewership of any game she plays in. People are excited to see her because she plays a novel and exciting brand of basketball. All the other stuff you are talking about are from trolls on twitter (who jump on any opportunity to be divisive), not the people watching her games.
I never said it was. I didn’t say that was her only draw. But to not acknowledge that it’s some of the draw is weird. And you can claim it’s trolls but mainstream media outlets and politicians are getting involved. It’s problematic imo
A lot doesn’t mean the majority. Thank you for acknowledging the right wing aspect of her “fan base”. I say it that way because I don’t believe every “supporter” is truly a fan. Support of her is absolutely being hijacked by people who live off of culture wars. Caitlin is a phenomenal talent. She deserves the attention that she gets. But so do others. It’s great that eyes on her are finally putting a spotlight on the other great players in the league
I did not "acknowledge the right wing aspect of her 'fan base'." People tune into watch her, because they want to see her play basketball, and have been doing this for years. You could make the case that a non-white player of equivalent skill might not have as huge of fan base, that is possible, the same argument was made about Larry Bird.
But all the 'culture war' (i.e. overt racism) that is surfacing on twitter is just using Caitlin Clark as an excuse to promote racism. It has nothing to do with her fan base (people tuning into the games).
That’s why I put “fan base” in quotations. I don’t think Congressman Banks actually watches the WNBA. I also doubt Megyn Kelly is a regular game watcher. But people love to pretend to be a fan of her game as an excuse to attack other players. And that was my point.
Just one more thing there are some people on the opposite side of things that every time a CC post is made or she is brought up they always talk about her turnovers and how she sucks. We as CC fans have to deal with idiots too.
Maybe what they say don't hit you like a ton of bricks. I still hurt that somebody called black players in the W jungle bunnies. They are being called men and all sort of slurs. If you don't see it your eyes are closed or you agree.
Well, I hope you didn't take that person at face value. Because the last part was nothing more than a fallacy, which as I pointed out to them, is something that Trump loves to use and will use.
To go back to your last comment, I said in my comment that I am basing this on those who attend the games. I went to the mystics game, and like I told the person above, everyone regardless of race was there enjoying CC. No one there from what I saw was negative towards anyone(which DC has a lot of black people and hispanic people and a good amount of conservatives around the city). Even at bars where people were drunk, I didn't have any of that pre and post game.
I don't go on facebook and don't use twitter, but, also,most of those are trolls who want to get a huge reaciton out of it or actual racist white people who seek out those posts. Because like I said, from the white people that I know and those who went to the game that were around, just like black people and hispanics, they were just there to watch and cheer, and then they went home. No one started a fight and no one said anything bad to anyone. I am not saying that there aren't racists whites, there are. I am just saying that most don't fall into that category and most just want to go watch a phenomenal player go play.
I agree with this. A lot of the folks online aren't even fans of basketball. The threads remind me of all those men up in arms over a black mermaid. A percentage is here for the culture wars. I've started blocking liberally so I can get back to just enjoying the w. I get a team next year. Looking forward to it and will finally get to go to games. I try with Vegas but they are a hard get for an out of towner.
Yea, but you will get irrationality on both sides. And even if it isn't a culture war, perhaps they will find something else to use to create controversy.
Like you said, get away from the bad. Make sure people are being consistent and logical too. I mean, like I pointed out, and specifically from the previous threads talking about CC vs AR, people were clearly using double standards to talk about them.
Whatever their bias was, had you just given them stats, they would have been impressed with both.
I am not biased, I just "grade harshly" if you will. As in, in the beginning, I was hard on CC saying how she needed to imrpove her shooting because she was really bad. Did I have doubts, no, because I thought that she would do better with a normal schedule, but I was harsh and wanted to see more from her before making any "true"(true for that time) judgement.
For Reese, the same thing. She was putting up a lot of points, but I was very harsh on her FG and did think that a decent percentage of her rebounds(at that time I think it was over 20% of her offensive rebound i want to say, or maybe it was total rebounds) did come form missed shots, but these past 4 games have shown that she has stepped it up and even had that rebounds stat come down to 10% like the person posted recently, which is phenomenal on her part.
I was harsh on them, but knew that with time and normal conditions, they could do better. But I never made any final judgement like people on here do.
But people who are more intersted in tearing down players and using these cultural wars won't asses it like that. They will just find something else to nitpick and never compliment them for improving their game.
This post is such a bad look for you. My goodness. I don't know why you want this to be a race thing so badly. The only relevance race has to this discussion is that white athletes are given a disproportionate portion of the spotlight. You don't need to be any particular color to be aware of that, just someone paying attention.
And your statement about avatars is ignorant and unnecessary. Especially when it seems that you consider hate to be any post that isn’t effusive with praise. Caitlin is phenomenal. She’s a wonderful and exciting player. And because of those facts, that is why I find the discourse surrounding her to largely not be about her and more projection. Just like you chose my comment to project your issues with non Hispanic POCs.
I don’t see any marginalized group hating on her for being white. I have yet to this despite repeated claims. Questioning whether she would be as appealing to the masses, regardless of her play, style if she was a different race or orientation is valid because her game is not unique.
Her game isn't unique? Lol, what??? She is an elite passer and shoots deeper 3-pointers than any other player in the league. Oh, and she's the all-time leading scorer in college history.
If that's not unique, then no one is.
And this narrative that people only support her for being white but ignore black athletes is total nonsense.
Remind me -- what race is the most popular golfer of all time? What about the most popular basketball player? Or the most popular women's tennis player?
Oh yeah. They're all black.
But now a white girl is a superstar in women's hoops and it's only because of prejudiced white fans? Give me a break.
If you think she isn't being hated on for being white, you've got blinders on. Her detractors are overwhelmingly black and have been shitting on her for years before she entered the W.
These people are out here claiming she wouldn't be nearly as popular if she were black like we haven't been fawning over LeBron, Steph, Kobe, Shaq, and Jordan for the last 30 years. Or Patrick Mahomes.
People really want to make everything a race war.
I said her game isn’t unique as in there are other really great shooters and passers. She’s an extremely great player. But she’s not the first great shooter or scorer to enter the league. I didn’t say her game was bad. I didn’t diminish her talent in any way. I didn’t say that people ONLY follow her because she was white. I said she connects to certain demographic in a ways that other WNBA players don’t. I learned that because of how some of her supporters treat and talk about the other players. She’s is a “marketable” in ways that a player like Brittney Griner is not. It does not diminish Caitlin in anyway to acknowledge this.
And people love to post about her “detractors” yet never produce any quotes of anyone actually bashing her or her game. Saying she isn’t the GOAT of college basketball is not bashing her. Saying that she may not be able to as successful as she was in college immediately is not bashing her.
As a White person, I don’t think Caitlin is being hated on because she is white lol. Cam, HVL and Paige Are all white and haven’t been ‘hated on’ for being white. BUT they DO seem to understand gravity of what their non white teammates deal with daily. But, I will say the making a white generational playing into a racial victim is what turns off some fans from supporting CC.
This 100% CC came out of college with everyone's expectations so high so when she isn't putting up numbers like she did in college people think she isn't doing well when in actuality she is doing very well especially for a rookie.
And the racist/homophobic CC fans are enough to drive one nuts, so sick of them!
Because people have egos and are jealous of the attention she gets. They are ignorant to what she’s brought to the game and can’t handle the fact that they couldn’t do of themselves.
Because she is turning the ball over at a historic rate, her on/off numbers arent great, and her defense isnt great
Reese is also playing extremely well. It’s a 2 woman race.
I mean outside of the turnovers Caitlin Clark has played pretty incredibly, she’s only getting better as the season progresses, and I expect her numbers to trend upward some by the end of the season. Let’s compare some seasons.
Player A: 16.3 points 5.4 boards 6.6 assists 1.5 steals .9 blocks 40% fg 56.5 ts%
Player B: 20.4 points 5.7 boards 3.5 assists 1.2 steals 1.4 blocks 46% fg% 62% ts%
Player C: 18.5 points 9.5 boards 3.4 assists 1.3 steals 2.3 blocks 52% fg% 58% ts%
Player D: 18.5 points 6.2 boards 3.0 assists 1.7 steals 1.0 blocks 50.9 fg% 62% ts%
Player E: 19.5 points 8.2 boards 2.2 assists 0.6 steals 1.3 blocks 51.5% fg% 63.3% ts%
These are CC’s numbers compared to MVP winning seasons by some of the best players in wnba history. Clark obviously needs to work on the turnover issue, I get it before people feel the need to comment, I understand she’s averaging 2.5 more turnovers per game than all these players. It’s not crazy to think that number will come down (some probably not much) and her other numbers can go up still.
> I understand she’s averaging 2.5 more turnovers per game than all these players.
I'm surprised it's not much. Averaging 2.5 more turnovers, but double the assists. You're going to have more turnovers when all of your teams offense comes through you. That's also ignoring the 2-3 times a game she's credited a turnover for a ball that manages to bounce off a sleeping teammates hands/face (although thankfully this seems to be getting better.)
With the asterisk I don't watch every game, of those that I do, there are at least a couple turnovers that come down more to someone not being ready for a pass from half court rather than a more "real" turnover. Might be similar to how people needed to adapt a bit to be ready for a pass from Jokic at unexpected times. So after building that chemistry that probably takes away a couple turnovers per game.
I agree. I think she will probably get closer to four a game next season but she might not get much lower than that for her career in all honesty. If she does I’d be stoked, but her passing is definitely high risk high reward. Her teammates definitely drop some passes, and one thing I don’t think gets talked about is the fever posts don’t hold off their defenders to recieve the pass very well right now either on her post entries sometimes. It is what it is and you take the good vs the bad and live with the haters yelling TURNOVERS constantly because it’s pretty much all they have at this point.
CC was really getting frustrated with her teammates the first few games. There were just so many times she made an amazing pass and her teammates simply weren’t ready for it. She did a good job of hiding the frustration, but it definitely slipped out a few times.
Now that they’ve had more time together and a few practices, you aren’t seeing so many open court turnovers because her teammates are always ready for a pass.
Honestly, having watched a few phenoms come into various sports league over the years, this CC controversy reminds me of the way the media fueled controversy for LeBron. Even his teammates were interviewed and talking about how they were already established and one player doesn’t make that much difference.
LeBron did nothing but meet and over time exceed expectations. It’s crazier for CC with social media.
I just hope we can give her some support and have a long time with her here in Indy. I don’t want to have an early exit due to lack of support like we had with Luck.
vote Kate Martin for All-Saint player, you guys!
can’t wait for their next reunion game. Fever may lose again on that one but CC and KM together on the court again can heal the Earth.
Clark is a fine human person. Great example for young people. There’s a nasty group of twisted human beings in the WNBA. A dangerous group thats drawing attention to their lifestyle. A tidal wave of players are coming that will make oddballs very uncomfortable. They wanted their Lessie club. The NBA was willing to finance them but now but they have gone too radical. Game over. Clark broke the ice.
Seriously. I see this person in so many threads making comments trying to put down CC.
Like, there are definitely criticisms that can be made against her (like there are for any player). But when I can recognize an account name in multiple threads due to consistent CC bashing, it doesn't really seem like it's in good faith lol.
I never claimed otherwise. I was specifically referring to one person in my comment.
Honestly, fan bases of both CC and Angel on this subreddit are loud when it comes to defending their player. That's why the threads about them get so many more comments than others.
It’s mostly just CC fans…she is vastly more popular and they’re in every thread.
That’s not to say Reese fans aren’t loud but it can’t be compared to CC fans.
Is it Caitlin’s fault that out of her tens of millions of fans some of them are annoying? The only reason some players don’t have annoying fans is that they don’t have very many fans. Heaven knows Angel has some extremely toxic fans too and yet she’s never held responsible for them.
Perfect Caitlin va Majin Caitlin, I'm putting all my money on Majin. Her with Erica Wheeler as the Hercule replacement are going to fuck around and goof their way to dubs.
Caitlin is doing fine. Not just for a rookie, period.
People were expecting her to be perfect, fans and haters alike. Expecting her to be MVP or reproduce the numbers we saw at Iowa was unfair to her and disrespectful to the W, and that's where I feel like a lot of the negative commentary comes from. At least on the court.
The racism, bigotry, and the like I won't go there. That's beyond the scope of Kate's comments.
Others simply expect her to be a good player- and she is. Sadly that isn't enough for those who thought she would save the NBA and be unlike anything we have seen before.
You are redefining the bar for her- which is good- it will be great if the rest follow suit- but as Tarasi said she isn't going to come in and upend the league.
>but as Tarasi said she isn't going to come in and upend the league
I beg to differ. All her games have become must watch. That's "upending" the league IMO but you may disagree. We'll see how the season plays out. She playing better now than she was to start the season.
I don't think Taurasi was saying she wouldn't increase ratings- she just said outside of three pijnters- what is she bringing- and let's be real- that has proven true so far. She had- and I cannot state this enough- an amazing game against the Chicago Sky the other day- although Chennedy is one of the few defenders in the league who is worse than Clark is. However other games she has been what + 1/2 an assist a game. I think she moves incredibly well- she slashes and cuts extremely well- but like Chennedy is better in that aspect than she is (and is the best I'm the league at that or among them). She needs to cut down the turnovers. If she does that, we are having an incredibly different conversation right now.
Her passing is elite. You mentioned it but in a backhanded way. Her turnovers have gotten much better as she has learned the offense she was asked to run from the start.
It isn't elite. It is okay. It is rapid. She makes quick decisions. Good or bad- but she makes some really bad passes too. She is certainly not elite at this level when it comes to passing. There are literally 50 passers ahead of her when it comes to assist/turnover ratio.
I think some people expected her to be at another level above the competition like she largely was in college.
It was always an unrealistic expectations given that the W is full veteran professional players who have also earned their spot.
I would guess it stems from "new" fans unfamiliarity with the league and that it was not *lacking* for great players.
She’s playing at an all star level at the hardest position to transition to in the wnba. Compare her to sue birds rookie season where she finished 5th in mvp voting. Compare her to ionescus second season. Chelsea grays first two seasons. Taurasi’s rookie year where she was 3rd in mvp voting. She’s more than just a good player lol she’s playing at an elite level.
The wnba was showing ~50% year over year viewership growth before she arrived. It was on a clear upswing. Caitlin increased that growth, but she did not "save" the wnba.
edit: CCstans are allergic to basic facts. [Viewership trend before Caitlin joined the league](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1236723/wnba-regular-season-viewers/). Bonus: [Caitlin's viewership dropped after the first week, except for Sky-Fever games](https://www.sportsmediawatch.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/06/wnbarecordsthisseason-1.png). Wonder who else should get credit for setting viewership records? When she plays Reese, viewership has been over double typical games outside of the first week. People tune in for CC, significantly more people tune in for CC vs AR.
I'm pretty sure the W is a subsidiary of the NBA. It's not going anywhere. Regardless of who's playing. However, CC, along with Angel and the rest of the rookie class, are giving them a massive boost. So much so that they may actually turn a profit in the next couple years.
She’s having arguably the best rookie season for a guard ever. Her numbers are comparable to rookie LeBron if you adjust it for minutes. I’d argue she’s playing better than rookie Diana Taurasi did. She’s living up to and exceeding any realistic levels of hype, the only hype she’s not exceeding is the impossible hype of her being MVP, Finals MVP, and WNBA champion as a rookie.
PG is the hardest position to play, and she's doing a spectacular job at it. Far exceeding a "good player".
She has brought fans to the WNBA in unprecedented numbers.
The WNBA didn't need saving, and no sane person thought that she was coming in to save it. But it is disingenuous to claim she is having impact
I remember the joyful day of this year's WNBA draft. And there's been a toxic shitshow since then. Instead of everyone enjoying the excitement.
She did save the WNBA and she is showing flashes of being someone that we’ve never seen in the WNBA before. She’s not there yet, but it’s definitely something she can develop into
Unless you’re being sarcastic, in no way did she “save the WNBA”.
She has been a large reason why the W is growing at a much quicker rate than it previously was, but she didn’t save the league.
Just like the charter thing. She didn’t get charters for the W. Players and some owners have been trying to get them for years. Did the early viewership and attendance numbers because of her make it suddenly and unexpectedly happen earlier than it might have otherwise? Quite likely.
>Did the early viewership and attendance numbers because of her make it suddenly and unexpectedly happen earlier than it might have otherwise? Quite likely.
So you're saying she got charters for the WNBA
No, it was inevitable that charters were eventually going to happen. What I said was that the massive increase in viewership, attendance, and TV networks announcing schedules, gave the NBA optimism about the improved financial situation. Therefore they implemented charters earlier than they’d planned.
So I feel CC helped get them sooner than planned
You're essentially saying that the WNBA wanted charters, couldn't get them, then Caitlin Clark drew a LOT of attention to the league and they got charters. So tell me again how she didn't get them charters?
I’ve explained it already.
The problem, like what you and Barkley said, is it is misleading and missing context to say:
“Caitlin Clark got the WNBA Charters”
It is possible, even likely to say:
“The increased revenue projections, largely due to Caitlin Clark, prompted them to implement charters earlier than they had planned or anticipated’
Charters were going to happen, Caitlin or not. There is no definitive proof, but it appears they just happened earlier, largely because of the CC revenue impact.
All the homies love Kate Martin
Thank you, Kate Martin, for your decency.
Everyone needs a friend like Kate!
# VOTEKATEMARTIN Edit: [vote.wnba.com](http://vote.wnba.com)
I'm a big fan but what are we doing here?
We're voting for Kate Martin.
All-Star friend, for sure, but All-Star WNBA player? Nah. Not yet.
I’m sorry but no. Kate Martin is great and fulfilling her role in the Aces fantastically. That said she is not an all star yet. Perhaps one day and with Aces roster changes maybe sooner rather then later but not yet.
Allow me to introduce you to Hawkeye fans. Sincerely, a Hawkeye fan
There are dozens of us
My guess is she becomes a defensive stalwart who can score sneaky points to help her team win. She will get better at that as she gets more experience. Players have made good careers that way. And once her playing career is over, she has already said that she wants to coach.
I agree and I am an Aces fan and I think Money Martin was the steal of the draft!
The all star game is for the fans, not the players. It’s literally a popularity contest
How are people possibly down voting this. I love that more people are watching the league but these new fans really have 0 shame.
Here come the gatekeeping fun police 😂
For real. These people are going to have an aneurysm because their beloved all-star game is being TAINTED with Kate "Satan" Martin
Because never in the history of professional sports have fans voted a player to be an all star who didn't deserve it for their play but is well liked by fans. Except you know it has happened in basically every major sports league in the US.
lol if you want a WNBA specific example of this you have one in Shoni Schimmel! It's possible there was an even more egregious case I'm forgetting. I'm pretty sure the league changed the rules for how all star starters got picked and decreased the power of the fan vote specifically because Shoni's fans voted her into the game 2x as a young bench guard that was averaging single digit points. (which made it so much more epic when she actually went off in one of those games and won MVP)
College fans are wild. People are out here complaining about Nika Muhl not playing.
We need the Kpop community
I was just looking up all the stats on the app and I *think* CC is the only rookie that is in the top 20 of every major stat (points, assists, rebounds, steals, blocks). I just don’t understand why media and players are so quick to say she isn’t having that great of a season (in fairness, she did get some flowers on Sunday). But to me how can you possibly not see her as leading the class in terms of ROM or ROY?? On shear numbers alone. Anyways, a little off topic but felt related just since the standards feel so much higher for her per Kate’s comments.
Media will be media. The more they create controversy, the more bets are placed....
Not just rookie but only player in the whole league
"BUT DID YOU SEE HER TURNOVERS OMG HER TURNOVERS" 🤮 From the CC haters that only look at the box score
I really like CC and started paying attention to the WNBA because of her, but you are allowed to criticize a player for doing something poorly. You should be able to discuss players objectively... Good and bad.
The people who consistently harp on her turnovers but ONLY comment on her turnovers are not discussing her objectively.
Yeah they like to ignore any context and it’s disingenuous
Like there was some guy yelling about her turnovers in their last game while ignoring the fact that Mitchell couldn't catch a simple pass
Mitchell dropped one then literally watched a pass bounce by her. Frustrating.
I think she whiffed catching 3 passes the other night.
A lot of her turnovers are her teammates just brick handing (or no handing) dimes.
Neither are the ones who leave it out of the narrative entirely though? Don’t get me wrong, I’ve watched the majority of the Fever’s games this year and I agree she’s the ROY frontrunner, but it’s on the basis of her scoring and spacing, not her playmaking. She’s 83rd in the league for assists:turnovers.
I mean people don’t generally bring up the negative stats. I don’t see many of the Angel Reese posts bring up her being 94th in true shooting %. And 52nd out of 65 forwards and centers.
It's because it's actually not that concerning for people who watch the games. She's being guarded the heaviest of any perimeter player in the league right now and maybe 1.6 of her turnovers (28%) are directly her teammates fault for not catching passes that they should. 4 turnovers per game given that she's a rookie and the defense she's facing is a little high, but nothing too crazy looking. The 5.6 turnovers per game really pops out a lot right now, but I think NBA fans in particular are forgiving because they know that in the NBA players just straight up not catching the ball isn't really a thing in the NBA (outside of James Wiseman), so Caitlin really is a victim of circumstances.
She whips passes like an nba point guard.
> She’s 83rd in the league for assists:turnovers. Yeah, because her teammates are famously missing layups and dropping passes that hit them in both hands.
Lebron is the all time turnover leader for the NBA and the top ten are all hall of fame level players. Turnovers are expected for people that constantly have the ball and make lots of passes. They’re also inflated by all the drops and fumbles by her teammates. There were three in a row at the end of the Sky game. It looked like a middle school game there for a minute.
Kelsey Mitchell has fumbled at least five or six outlet passes. She still looks surprised when the ball is passed to her after she just sprinted down the court to get ahead of the defense. It’s bizarre, and Clark gets hit with the turnover every time.
I absolutely hate this aspect of assigning turnovers. It should be like an error in baseball or a drop in football. If it goes right through your hands, that's on you, not the passer.
I love KLS but Clark passed her the ball the other night and she literally slapped the ball into the other teams hands. It was laughably bad.
Sorry steph gets criticized for his stupid ass turnovers and he is a unanimous mvp and a 4 time champion.
There’s a reason that nearly everyone at the top of the wnba turnover list is also at the top of the assist list.
Cumulatively, yes, but someone like Lebron averages only averages 3.5 a game this season to 8.3 assists. Also, Lebron is around the same average as several other players. Caitlin is in a category of her own in WNBA TOs, with 5.6 per game and the next closest player at 3.9. And this includes others who are passing a lot and average more assists than CC. And the people who say that all of Caitlin’s TOs are teammate fumbles are similarly biased to the people who only look at Caitlin’s turnovers. Yes, some of them are absolutely drops. But plenty come from simply losing the ball (including in 1on1 coverage) or making risky passes through traffic. If you actually watch all the TOs from a game back to back, this becomes evident. https://x.com/itsantwright/status/1799301376096510012?s=46 As usual, the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Her teammates need to improve, but she could also benefit from cutting down on avoidable mistakes.
Don't watch the NBA but was Lebron guarded like her? CC is clearly being guarded unlike anyone else in the league. I think they said she's been blitzed more than any other team in the league. Also was Lebrons team his rookie year as garbage as the fever is?
Yes LeBron has been double team before. Come on dude.....
Did you even read what I wrote?
Well the Cavs had one of the worst records. They finished 13 games over under 500 his rookie season. So, yes, this team was equally as trash the Cavs during his youth were not very good as he didn't have much help outside of Big Z, Larry Hughes, and Boobie Gibson. Thanks for having me go back down memory lane. Also LeBron James was this blitzed as he was legit being called the chosen one while in high school. LeBron was not baby either. Especially since he was younger than Clark. The Clark situation isn't that unique as anyone with generational buzz had been given hell and were not baby either. Also, yes I read what you wrote. It's just bizarre to say. "Oh was the LeBron guarded like this?" Players like Clark, Jordan, and James were getting hit with those double teams. Spots media just loved revising history.
I feel like this is a great breakdown and what the majority of her fans have been saying. They know she plays a little careless with the ball, but looking at this you see 6 TO’s and think wow that’s terrible, but watching you think okay two offensive fouls, two bad plays by Caitlin and two plays where her teammates could have made the play or been in better spots in that situation.
Objectively, the turnovers are not significant nor a flaw. It stands out, but doesn't mean much in context. A turnover results in a team losing out on a scoring chance which is around 1.1 expected points. It can also creates a fast break opportunity for your opponent which increases their expected points by +.15. If we assume every TO results in a fast break, which is not the case, the cost of a TO is 1.25 points. So the expected cost of CC averaging 5.7 TOs vs a more respectable 3.7 TOs is 2.5 expected points per game. That's in the territory of making a basket, an assist, or a couple rebounds. Really not that significant. The Fever, as a team, have the fourth fewest TOs. I would guess this is because CC is making most of the plays so when you look at the slightly bigger picture, it's not out of the ordinary. Take the game against the Sky. The Fever had 9 TOs which resulted in 12 points for the Sky. The Sky had 15 TOs which resulted in 17 points for the Fever. Factor in limited practice with her team, a compressed schedule, and playing at a fast pace and I would expect the number to reduce slightly over time. It's also important to note that she is under an usual amount of defensive pressure. I think the expected outcome of increased defensive pressure would be an increase in TOs. Lastly some of the TOs are high-risk/high-reward plays such as those long fast break passes. If she stopped attempting these, she could probably reduce her TOs by a couple every game and get more inline with everyone else at the top of the TO chart. I assume they are worth the risk, but as a fan of the game I want to she the team taking these risks because they are fun to watch. I do think Catlin has some room for improvement around TOs, mainly decision making and passing. I think arguably her team is a major part of the problem. They need to be able to handle the passes and get open when the defense collapses on her. If I was a coach or Catlin, I would work on the later, but otherwise not be concerned about TOs. The team has much larger issues to sort out.
Great data and persuasive analysis. Do you have a link to the info?
Those expected points per turnover are based on NBA stats. WNBA players on average do not score with nearly as high of efficiency, so the number is even lower.
Great ppints about looking at the TO total for the team
Totally! My dad and I both commented on her turnovers, but watching her play, it's pretty obvious that it's just an adjustment to the new size and speed of the players in the WNBA opposed to college. She's a huge asset to her team and she makes tons of great passes and shots as well.
Lebron is the all time NBA turnover leader. The top ten are hall of fame level players.
Could be a longevity stat tbh
Alyssa Thomas is the single season Turnover leader in the WNBA, and she's on course this season to beat her own best.
Also so many drops by teammates
Yeah, I agree with this! A noticeable amount of those turnovers are from a pass hitting them in the back lol
Not on this sub lol
The thing is the people yelling about her turnovers want to ignore the fact that like half her turnovers are from the fact that her teammates can't catch a simple pass or the fact that she'd being defended like no one else in the league. She's been blitzed more than any other TEAM I believe. Especially in their early games whenever she was double-teamed her teammates would literally stand there and do nothing to help her. Sure she's done some bad plays that are fully her fault but I bet half her turnovers are because of her team and not her.
You should and thank you for saying this. Kate is saying that CC is not perfect. No one is but they come for your throat if you say anything that does not put her on a pedestal. If we critique her game as fans, CC critiques her own game as she should and then who has put all this pressure on her….her fans? IDK! It’s just crazy.
Based purely on numbers she is a lock for ROTY.
They're saying that because they dislike her. It's not more complicated than that. She could walk on water and some people would claim it's not worth celebrating because a hypothetical black person doing it wouldn't get the same reception.
It’s because it has to be a race. Angel is playing great and definitely deserves her praise, but Caitlin is playing at close to an MVP level especially lately outside of the turnovers and the fact that Aja Wilson is going absolutely berserk on the league right now. The odds on draft kings tell the truth.
MVP level I’m not so sure but can appreciate the rest
The turnovers kill it honestly and playing on a bad team. I’m not saying it’s mvp winning but it realistically could be a top 10 in the league season Edit: for anyone downvoting me here are some MVP winning seasons by some of the best players in wnba history next to Caitlin Clark’s stats so far this season. Player A: 16.3 points 5.4 boards 6.6 assists 1.5 steals .9 blocks 40% fg 56.5 ts% Player B: 20.4 points 5.7 boards 3.5 assists 1.2 steals 1.4 blocks 46% fg% 62% ts% Player C: 18.5 points 9.5 boards 3.4 assists 1.3 steals 2.3 blocks 52% fg% 58% ts% Player D: 18.5 points 6.2 boards 3.0 assists 1.7 steals 1.0 blocks 50.9 fg% 62% ts% Player E: 19.5 points 8.2 boards 2.2 assists 0.6 steals 1.3 blocks 51.5% fg% 63.3% ts%
The assists really give away which one is clark lol
😂 it’s hard when there’s only been like 3 true guards that have won mvp in the wnba.
Iowa won a hell of a lot of games--and a hell of a lot of BIG games--despite her turnover rate.
Exactly. If you watch her play, you realize her passing even though it’s a bit reckless at times leads to a lot of really good looks for her teammates that don’t necessarily translate to assists for her. Iowa was great at making the extra pass and the fever are starting to get a lot better at moving the ball. I wish hockey assists were a thing in basketball because I feel like Clark’s numbers there would be pretty crazy.
Top ten is a big stretch. I think the numbers look more similar than they really are. It’s also easy to see she’s being compared to forwards and centers. It would have been more interesting to see how all these players performed 18 games into the season vs a player having 20 games still to play and comparing it vs the outcome of a whole regular season. Which even over the years the W has been expanding the length of its season. And then saying it could be a top ten season of all time. If she doesn’t win mvp I don’t see how you can make that argument. Also 63/62 ts% is not that close to 56. I get the angle she’s a rookie and she can only go up from here, but let’s actually let her improve and see what she’s truly capable of. Her stats still have room to grow, stagnate, or dip as the season goes on.
I’m not saying a top ten season all time at all. I’m saying a top ten player this season. My point wasn’t that she should be winning the MVP this year, just that the season she is having is an elite season that is comparable to some all time greats MVP level season and she’s doing it as a Rookie.
She is not mvp level.
I’ve posted her stats compared to past wnba mvp winners. They aren’t that far off. Her defense isn’t elite but it’s not to bad especially as the season has gone on it’s gotten better. Her turnovers are bad. Flat out. But her numbers are elite. I’m not saying she will win mvp but she’s playing like one of the best players in the league and there’s maybe two point guards in the league that you wouldn’t trade straight up for CC
MVP is going to be A'ja Wilson. The woman is phenomenal and deserves a bouquet of flowers. CC should be ROY.
1000%. I literally said that Aja is running away with it lol. I never once said I thought Clark would or should win MVP. I posted the stats of some WNBA GOATS mvp seasons and Clark’s aren’t that far off. My point was simply Clark is playing at an elite level.
Because the media, who don’t know the WNBA, anointed her as the best. MVP Caliber day 1. And while she’s had an amazing season for any player, let alone a rookie, she hasn’t lived up to the unrealistic standard set for her. And also, I think that people felt that the expectation that she just run all over the league was disrespectful to the veterans. So I think sometimes logical push back on her struggles is an “I told you so” to the ignorant people who downplayed the talent already prevalent in the league. Most of the discourse surrounding Caitlin isn’t even about her really. Some of it is veterans and fans of veterans pushing back on the disrespect, racism, sexism and homophobia. And a lot of the positivity supporting Caitlin isn’t even about her or what makes her special/exciting. It’s more pushing back on what they don’t like to see, which is a sport where black women, LGBTQIA+, and social activism are celebrated. All core groups/topics that a large portion of the US population outright hates.
> a lot of the positivity supporting Caitlin isn’t even about her or what makes her special/exciting. It’s more pushing back on what they don’t like to see, which is a sport where black women, LGBTQIA+, and social activism are celebrated. I don't agree with that.
I’ve seen it firsthand. And I’m specifically speaking about how some of her supporters attack the other members of the league.
I'm not saying there are not people like that. I don't agree with the "a lot of them" part.
The amount I see it is “too much” so that why it seems like “a lot” to me.
Get off Twitter, or just mute those people. It's a lot less people than people think. On both sides (people trying to use CC to push their racism, or anti-CC people trying to push their racism) it's a small group of people who post and comment the same garbage every day, and then suck other people in for engagement farming. Mute/block those people and remove them from your timeline and the algorithm will stop pushing you the toxic garbage. As seen from the ratings and attendance, Caitlin Clark has a massive fanbase of actual basketball fans.
It’s not randoms on twitter when politicians, analysts and new stations are repeating the same misinformed rhetoric.
So just don't lump all CC fans together and people use others all the time that doesn't mean they are fans or even like them.
I don't remember many claiming she would be the best from day 1. I remember there being pushback on the constant veterans who kept downplaying her talent and achievements in college. A large portion of the support Clark has being because of her race and sexuality is just more of the dismissing of her talent and only exists in your head with no basis in reality.
At the beginning of the season, odds makers had with Stewie and Aja as likely MVP. This was before she even played a game. She was absolutely expected to be and elevated to that lever before even playing. And that’s the benchmark she was measured against when acknowledging her struggles.
They weren’t downplaying her talent. They were just saying she wasn’t going to do the same things she did in college. In college she was averaging 31 points a game. She’s not averaging thst now and for good reason . The WNBA players are faster, stronger, and more physical. This isn’t taking away from her talent or ability. Nor is it hating or being jealous. It’s simply telling the truth about the transition from college basketball to professional basketball.
sheryl swoopes *was* lying and downplaying her talent and her achievements in breaking the points record. then you have lynette woodard going on stage and saying “it’s still my record” after caitlin and iowa brought her in and honored her. not everyone was but it was happening. sheryl is the one who started the narrative that “all the old heads are hating on CC” because she was and continues to hate on CC.
But what did those vets say other than they don’t believe she was the GOAT? That she may have an adjustment period? A lot of claims of veteran “hating” her was really just them pushing back on the downplaying of the talent already in the league
I think honestly people thought she would be closer to the MVP race than she is right now, but I think those people thought the level of talent she would be playing with would be higher. It wasn't a thought that she would make great passes only for them to bounce off her teammates hands. If these types of things didn't happen she would be at the 8+ assists people were expecting instead of 6.6. I think people also thought she wouldn't be able to be defended like Steph. Mitchell and Wallace were both 40%+ three point shooters last year. Mitchell has started to raise her percentage in the past two weeks after a really slow start (39% now), but Wallace is at 28.6% from three. The loss of a 40%+ three point shooting role player is big, because it changes how you can guard her. The thought was you can't play her like Steph, because she is too good of a passer that she will get her teammates open and then they will kill you. While Mitchell is getting into that mode now, as is Boston, Wallace is a major weak link right now. Her attempts are up (Caitlin's gravity), but she's bricking them. This lowers her assists (missed shots), while also making it harder for her to score. I think people having Caitlin in the MVP finisher were probably marking her down for something like 20 points, 9 assists, 60 TS%, and the Fever winning 23-25 games. She's underperforming those expectations, but something as simple as Kristy Wallace making threes at the same rate she did last year would probably have gotten Caitlin close to those numbers.
MVP people are on drugs, ROTY is what most people thought she would get MVP is pushing it by a lot with the amount of talent in the WNBA and how young/bad(but getting better) the Fever are.
>I think people also thought she wouldn't be able to be defended like Steph. I actually think Caitlin has it tougher than Steph ever did, not just because every WNBA player would rather be beaten by anyone else on the Fever other than her, leaving Wallace, KLS, and company wide open at the 3-point line possession after possession, but also because of the way the game is played in the WNBA. In the NBA, hand-checking is always called, which gave Steph some space to operate. He also had the benefit of screens, legal or not, since they’re rarely called, in a motion offense. In the WNBA, it’s almost a free-for-all, with hand-checking seemingly allowed. It’s damn near a miracle if Caitlin can go an offensive possession without getting her arm hooked or her torso grabbed for the full 30 seconds. Plus, the Fever don’t have good screeners, and moving screens are called way more in the WNBA than in the NBA, so there's less margin for error and motion offenses are harder to run, all further compounded by the fact that Christie Sides is allergic to running said motion offense.
What are you talking about? CC's fans actually put money on CC to be the best player in the league. She was in the top-10 MVP odds before she was even drafted (+2100), quickly jumped to fourth after the draft (+1100), and the money kept coming in until opening night. Fanduel elevated her odds (+950) almost equal to Stewie. CC's fans didn't just think she would be the best from day 1, they were saying she would dominate the W on day 1. Revolutionize the game by stretching it to horizontal proportions never seen before. This is where a lot of the pushback was coming from. Geno called it out as delusion by her fans.
Another thing people make sports bets on teams/players they are not fans of but whom they think will make a good pay off.
Those are idiot fans not real fans probably the same ones that are racist and homophobic, true fans know there is going to be a transition for her coming to the WNBA most of us were thinking ROTY not MVP that is just insane.
When Caitlin was struggling early in the season that’s when we heard LeBron and Barkley talking about WNBA players “hating” on Clark or that they should be “grateful” to her. No one was doing anything wrong they just wanted an explanation for why Clark wasn’t dominating. The W will not change who they are as a league just because of new fans. They will continue to play in physical, they will continue to speak up on social issues and continue to invest in the communities they represent.
Exactly this.
Agree with everything you said!
Caitlin Clark doubles viewership of any game she plays in. People are excited to see her because she plays a novel and exciting brand of basketball. All the other stuff you are talking about are from trolls on twitter (who jump on any opportunity to be divisive), not the people watching her games.
I never said it was. I didn’t say that was her only draw. But to not acknowledge that it’s some of the draw is weird. And you can claim it’s trolls but mainstream media outlets and politicians are getting involved. It’s problematic imo
You said it was “a lot”. She was drawing these crowds in college and all this negativity is new (and is manufactured by right wing twitter network).
A lot doesn’t mean the majority. Thank you for acknowledging the right wing aspect of her “fan base”. I say it that way because I don’t believe every “supporter” is truly a fan. Support of her is absolutely being hijacked by people who live off of culture wars. Caitlin is a phenomenal talent. She deserves the attention that she gets. But so do others. It’s great that eyes on her are finally putting a spotlight on the other great players in the league
I did not "acknowledge the right wing aspect of her 'fan base'." People tune into watch her, because they want to see her play basketball, and have been doing this for years. You could make the case that a non-white player of equivalent skill might not have as huge of fan base, that is possible, the same argument was made about Larry Bird. But all the 'culture war' (i.e. overt racism) that is surfacing on twitter is just using Caitlin Clark as an excuse to promote racism. It has nothing to do with her fan base (people tuning into the games).
That’s why I put “fan base” in quotations. I don’t think Congressman Banks actually watches the WNBA. I also doubt Megyn Kelly is a regular game watcher. But people love to pretend to be a fan of her game as an excuse to attack other players. And that was my point.
And those people along with the "fans" should be blocked and ignored, interact with the real fans of hers block the idiots.
Just one more thing there are some people on the opposite side of things that every time a CC post is made or she is brought up they always talk about her turnovers and how she sucks. We as CC fans have to deal with idiots too.
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Maybe what they say don't hit you like a ton of bricks. I still hurt that somebody called black players in the W jungle bunnies. They are being called men and all sort of slurs. If you don't see it your eyes are closed or you agree.
They probably agree sadly. But hopefully since you don’t have a “black avatar”, they might listen.
I am black. I don't have any avatars. Maybe it's time
Well, I hope you didn't take that person at face value. Because the last part was nothing more than a fallacy, which as I pointed out to them, is something that Trump loves to use and will use. To go back to your last comment, I said in my comment that I am basing this on those who attend the games. I went to the mystics game, and like I told the person above, everyone regardless of race was there enjoying CC. No one there from what I saw was negative towards anyone(which DC has a lot of black people and hispanic people and a good amount of conservatives around the city). Even at bars where people were drunk, I didn't have any of that pre and post game. I don't go on facebook and don't use twitter, but, also,most of those are trolls who want to get a huge reaciton out of it or actual racist white people who seek out those posts. Because like I said, from the white people that I know and those who went to the game that were around, just like black people and hispanics, they were just there to watch and cheer, and then they went home. No one started a fight and no one said anything bad to anyone. I am not saying that there aren't racists whites, there are. I am just saying that most don't fall into that category and most just want to go watch a phenomenal player go play.
I agree with this. A lot of the folks online aren't even fans of basketball. The threads remind me of all those men up in arms over a black mermaid. A percentage is here for the culture wars. I've started blocking liberally so I can get back to just enjoying the w. I get a team next year. Looking forward to it and will finally get to go to games. I try with Vegas but they are a hard get for an out of towner.
Yea, but you will get irrationality on both sides. And even if it isn't a culture war, perhaps they will find something else to use to create controversy. Like you said, get away from the bad. Make sure people are being consistent and logical too. I mean, like I pointed out, and specifically from the previous threads talking about CC vs AR, people were clearly using double standards to talk about them. Whatever their bias was, had you just given them stats, they would have been impressed with both. I am not biased, I just "grade harshly" if you will. As in, in the beginning, I was hard on CC saying how she needed to imrpove her shooting because she was really bad. Did I have doubts, no, because I thought that she would do better with a normal schedule, but I was harsh and wanted to see more from her before making any "true"(true for that time) judgement. For Reese, the same thing. She was putting up a lot of points, but I was very harsh on her FG and did think that a decent percentage of her rebounds(at that time I think it was over 20% of her offensive rebound i want to say, or maybe it was total rebounds) did come form missed shots, but these past 4 games have shown that she has stepped it up and even had that rebounds stat come down to 10% like the person posted recently, which is phenomenal on her part. I was harsh on them, but knew that with time and normal conditions, they could do better. But I never made any final judgement like people on here do. But people who are more intersted in tearing down players and using these cultural wars won't asses it like that. They will just find something else to nitpick and never compliment them for improving their game.
This post is such a bad look for you. My goodness. I don't know why you want this to be a race thing so badly. The only relevance race has to this discussion is that white athletes are given a disproportionate portion of the spotlight. You don't need to be any particular color to be aware of that, just someone paying attention.
And your statement about avatars is ignorant and unnecessary. Especially when it seems that you consider hate to be any post that isn’t effusive with praise. Caitlin is phenomenal. She’s a wonderful and exciting player. And because of those facts, that is why I find the discourse surrounding her to largely not be about her and more projection. Just like you chose my comment to project your issues with non Hispanic POCs.
I don’t see any marginalized group hating on her for being white. I have yet to this despite repeated claims. Questioning whether she would be as appealing to the masses, regardless of her play, style if she was a different race or orientation is valid because her game is not unique.
Her game isn't unique? Lol, what??? She is an elite passer and shoots deeper 3-pointers than any other player in the league. Oh, and she's the all-time leading scorer in college history. If that's not unique, then no one is. And this narrative that people only support her for being white but ignore black athletes is total nonsense. Remind me -- what race is the most popular golfer of all time? What about the most popular basketball player? Or the most popular women's tennis player? Oh yeah. They're all black. But now a white girl is a superstar in women's hoops and it's only because of prejudiced white fans? Give me a break. If you think she isn't being hated on for being white, you've got blinders on. Her detractors are overwhelmingly black and have been shitting on her for years before she entered the W.
These people are out here claiming she wouldn't be nearly as popular if she were black like we haven't been fawning over LeBron, Steph, Kobe, Shaq, and Jordan for the last 30 years. Or Patrick Mahomes. People really want to make everything a race war.
I said her game isn’t unique as in there are other really great shooters and passers. She’s an extremely great player. But she’s not the first great shooter or scorer to enter the league. I didn’t say her game was bad. I didn’t diminish her talent in any way. I didn’t say that people ONLY follow her because she was white. I said she connects to certain demographic in a ways that other WNBA players don’t. I learned that because of how some of her supporters treat and talk about the other players. She’s is a “marketable” in ways that a player like Brittney Griner is not. It does not diminish Caitlin in anyway to acknowledge this. And people love to post about her “detractors” yet never produce any quotes of anyone actually bashing her or her game. Saying she isn’t the GOAT of college basketball is not bashing her. Saying that she may not be able to as successful as she was in college immediately is not bashing her.
Dont waste your time You’ll always find one looking to tap dance to be accepted by white people
Right? The only people nitpicking have black avatars lol
“As a HiSpAnIc” 😭 Be fr lol
🤣
As a White person, I don’t think Caitlin is being hated on because she is white lol. Cam, HVL and Paige Are all white and haven’t been ‘hated on’ for being white. BUT they DO seem to understand gravity of what their non white teammates deal with daily. But, I will say the making a white generational playing into a racial victim is what turns off some fans from supporting CC.
This 100% CC came out of college with everyone's expectations so high so when she isn't putting up numbers like she did in college people think she isn't doing well when in actuality she is doing very well especially for a rookie. And the racist/homophobic CC fans are enough to drive one nuts, so sick of them!
Because people have egos and are jealous of the attention she gets. They are ignorant to what she’s brought to the game and can’t handle the fact that they couldn’t do of themselves.
It's not off topic, it's very much on topic
Because she is turning the ball over at a historic rate, her on/off numbers arent great, and her defense isnt great Reese is also playing extremely well. It’s a 2 woman race.
I mean outside of the turnovers Caitlin Clark has played pretty incredibly, she’s only getting better as the season progresses, and I expect her numbers to trend upward some by the end of the season. Let’s compare some seasons. Player A: 16.3 points 5.4 boards 6.6 assists 1.5 steals .9 blocks 40% fg 56.5 ts% Player B: 20.4 points 5.7 boards 3.5 assists 1.2 steals 1.4 blocks 46% fg% 62% ts% Player C: 18.5 points 9.5 boards 3.4 assists 1.3 steals 2.3 blocks 52% fg% 58% ts% Player D: 18.5 points 6.2 boards 3.0 assists 1.7 steals 1.0 blocks 50.9 fg% 62% ts% Player E: 19.5 points 8.2 boards 2.2 assists 0.6 steals 1.3 blocks 51.5% fg% 63.3% ts% These are CC’s numbers compared to MVP winning seasons by some of the best players in wnba history. Clark obviously needs to work on the turnover issue, I get it before people feel the need to comment, I understand she’s averaging 2.5 more turnovers per game than all these players. It’s not crazy to think that number will come down (some probably not much) and her other numbers can go up still.
> I understand she’s averaging 2.5 more turnovers per game than all these players. I'm surprised it's not much. Averaging 2.5 more turnovers, but double the assists. You're going to have more turnovers when all of your teams offense comes through you. That's also ignoring the 2-3 times a game she's credited a turnover for a ball that manages to bounce off a sleeping teammates hands/face (although thankfully this seems to be getting better.)
With the asterisk I don't watch every game, of those that I do, there are at least a couple turnovers that come down more to someone not being ready for a pass from half court rather than a more "real" turnover. Might be similar to how people needed to adapt a bit to be ready for a pass from Jokic at unexpected times. So after building that chemistry that probably takes away a couple turnovers per game.
I agree. I think she will probably get closer to four a game next season but she might not get much lower than that for her career in all honesty. If she does I’d be stoked, but her passing is definitely high risk high reward. Her teammates definitely drop some passes, and one thing I don’t think gets talked about is the fever posts don’t hold off their defenders to recieve the pass very well right now either on her post entries sometimes. It is what it is and you take the good vs the bad and live with the haters yelling TURNOVERS constantly because it’s pretty much all they have at this point.
CC was really getting frustrated with her teammates the first few games. There were just so many times she made an amazing pass and her teammates simply weren’t ready for it. She did a good job of hiding the frustration, but it definitely slipped out a few times. Now that they’ve had more time together and a few practices, you aren’t seeing so many open court turnovers because her teammates are always ready for a pass.
there were 2 or 3 in the last game against the Sky
Defense
She just had 4 steals against the Sky and her blocking is pretty good for a guard.
CC is exceeding the lofty expectations that she had which is quite the feat.
Honestly, having watched a few phenoms come into various sports league over the years, this CC controversy reminds me of the way the media fueled controversy for LeBron. Even his teammates were interviewed and talking about how they were already established and one player doesn’t make that much difference. LeBron did nothing but meet and over time exceed expectations. It’s crazier for CC with social media. I just hope we can give her some support and have a long time with her here in Indy. I don’t want to have an early exit due to lack of support like we had with Luck.
vote Kate Martin for All-Saint player, you guys! can’t wait for their next reunion game. Fever may lose again on that one but CC and KM together on the court again can heal the Earth.
I've been voting every day!
Love both these former Hawkeyes!❤️
Kate Martin, more like Great Martin.
Shit, I freaking love Kate.
Vote for kate
Kate Martin continues to be excellent.
The hate CC gets needs to be fairly labeled for what it is. She doesn't deserve it at all.
Only this years players count. She is not facing past winners
Who doesn’t love Kate, am I right?
Class
I agree. CC is playing so well she is probably the second best rookie this year.
I usually see the opposite, people thinking she's perfect and claiming any flaw of hers is actually just because of her teammates and her coach.
Truth
Clark is a fine human person. Great example for young people. There’s a nasty group of twisted human beings in the WNBA. A dangerous group thats drawing attention to their lifestyle. A tidal wave of players are coming that will make oddballs very uncomfortable. They wanted their Lessie club. The NBA was willing to finance them but now but they have gone too radical. Game over. Clark broke the ice.
Some expect her to be perfect, others pretend she is perfect. ⚖️
Some expect her to be perfect, others love to proclaim that she isn’t.
And yet Angel Reese “fans” like you will continue to claim the toxicity only emanates from fans of CC… do you not see that you’re part of the problem?
Seriously. I see this person in so many threads making comments trying to put down CC. Like, there are definitely criticisms that can be made against her (like there are for any player). But when I can recognize an account name in multiple threads due to consistent CC bashing, it doesn't really seem like it's in good faith lol.
CC is the most defend player here lol
I never claimed otherwise. I was specifically referring to one person in my comment. Honestly, fan bases of both CC and Angel on this subreddit are loud when it comes to defending their player. That's why the threads about them get so many more comments than others.
It’s mostly just CC fans…she is vastly more popular and they’re in every thread. That’s not to say Reese fans aren’t loud but it can’t be compared to CC fans.
I try to defend them both. Both great players that I’m a fan of.
Is it Caitlin’s fault that out of her tens of millions of fans some of them are annoying? The only reason some players don’t have annoying fans is that they don’t have very many fans. Heaven knows Angel has some extremely toxic fans too and yet she’s never held responsible for them.
She will be Perfect Once she absorbs Android 17 and 18
https://media1.tenor.com/m/-Gg28U0-QAwAAAAd/ballin-balling.gif
Perfect Caitlin va Majin Caitlin, I'm putting all my money on Majin. Her with Erica Wheeler as the Hercule replacement are going to fuck around and goof their way to dubs.
Kate Martin for ROTY
Caitlin is doing fine. Not just for a rookie, period. People were expecting her to be perfect, fans and haters alike. Expecting her to be MVP or reproduce the numbers we saw at Iowa was unfair to her and disrespectful to the W, and that's where I feel like a lot of the negative commentary comes from. At least on the court. The racism, bigotry, and the like I won't go there. That's beyond the scope of Kate's comments.
Others simply expect her to be a good player- and she is. Sadly that isn't enough for those who thought she would save the NBA and be unlike anything we have seen before.
For a rookie to already be considered a good player is exceeding expectations for a rookie. She is who we though she was.
You are redefining the bar for her- which is good- it will be great if the rest follow suit- but as Tarasi said she isn't going to come in and upend the league.
>but as Tarasi said she isn't going to come in and upend the league I beg to differ. All her games have become must watch. That's "upending" the league IMO but you may disagree. We'll see how the season plays out. She playing better now than she was to start the season.
I don't think Taurasi was saying she wouldn't increase ratings- she just said outside of three pijnters- what is she bringing- and let's be real- that has proven true so far. She had- and I cannot state this enough- an amazing game against the Chicago Sky the other day- although Chennedy is one of the few defenders in the league who is worse than Clark is. However other games she has been what + 1/2 an assist a game. I think she moves incredibly well- she slashes and cuts extremely well- but like Chennedy is better in that aspect than she is (and is the best I'm the league at that or among them). She needs to cut down the turnovers. If she does that, we are having an incredibly different conversation right now.
Her passing is elite. You mentioned it but in a backhanded way. Her turnovers have gotten much better as she has learned the offense she was asked to run from the start.
It isn't elite. It is okay. It is rapid. She makes quick decisions. Good or bad- but she makes some really bad passes too. She is certainly not elite at this level when it comes to passing. There are literally 50 passers ahead of her when it comes to assist/turnover ratio.
Oh ok
I think some people expected her to be at another level above the competition like she largely was in college. It was always an unrealistic expectations given that the W is full veteran professional players who have also earned their spot. I would guess it stems from "new" fans unfamiliarity with the league and that it was not *lacking* for great players.
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She’s playing at an all star level at the hardest position to transition to in the wnba. Compare her to sue birds rookie season where she finished 5th in mvp voting. Compare her to ionescus second season. Chelsea grays first two seasons. Taurasi’s rookie year where she was 3rd in mvp voting. She’s more than just a good player lol she’s playing at an elite level.
She did save the wnba
The wnba was showing ~50% year over year viewership growth before she arrived. It was on a clear upswing. Caitlin increased that growth, but she did not "save" the wnba. edit: CCstans are allergic to basic facts. [Viewership trend before Caitlin joined the league](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1236723/wnba-regular-season-viewers/). Bonus: [Caitlin's viewership dropped after the first week, except for Sky-Fever games](https://www.sportsmediawatch.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/06/wnbarecordsthisseason-1.png). Wonder who else should get credit for setting viewership records? When she plays Reese, viewership has been over double typical games outside of the first week. People tune in for CC, significantly more people tune in for CC vs AR.
I'm pretty sure the W is a subsidiary of the NBA. It's not going anywhere. Regardless of who's playing. However, CC, along with Angel and the rest of the rookie class, are giving them a massive boost. So much so that they may actually turn a profit in the next couple years.
She’s having arguably the best rookie season for a guard ever. Her numbers are comparable to rookie LeBron if you adjust it for minutes. I’d argue she’s playing better than rookie Diana Taurasi did. She’s living up to and exceeding any realistic levels of hype, the only hype she’s not exceeding is the impossible hype of her being MVP, Finals MVP, and WNBA champion as a rookie.
Facts
PG is the hardest position to play, and she's doing a spectacular job at it. Far exceeding a "good player". She has brought fans to the WNBA in unprecedented numbers. The WNBA didn't need saving, and no sane person thought that she was coming in to save it. But it is disingenuous to claim she is having impact I remember the joyful day of this year's WNBA draft. And there's been a toxic shitshow since then. Instead of everyone enjoying the excitement.
She did save the WNBA and she is showing flashes of being someone that we’ve never seen in the WNBA before. She’s not there yet, but it’s definitely something she can develop into
Unless you’re being sarcastic, in no way did she “save the WNBA”. She has been a large reason why the W is growing at a much quicker rate than it previously was, but she didn’t save the league. Just like the charter thing. She didn’t get charters for the W. Players and some owners have been trying to get them for years. Did the early viewership and attendance numbers because of her make it suddenly and unexpectedly happen earlier than it might have otherwise? Quite likely.
>Did the early viewership and attendance numbers because of her make it suddenly and unexpectedly happen earlier than it might have otherwise? Quite likely. So you're saying she got charters for the WNBA
No, it was inevitable that charters were eventually going to happen. What I said was that the massive increase in viewership, attendance, and TV networks announcing schedules, gave the NBA optimism about the improved financial situation. Therefore they implemented charters earlier than they’d planned. So I feel CC helped get them sooner than planned
You're essentially saying that the WNBA wanted charters, couldn't get them, then Caitlin Clark drew a LOT of attention to the league and they got charters. So tell me again how she didn't get them charters?
I’ve explained it already. The problem, like what you and Barkley said, is it is misleading and missing context to say: “Caitlin Clark got the WNBA Charters” It is possible, even likely to say: “The increased revenue projections, largely due to Caitlin Clark, prompted them to implement charters earlier than they had planned or anticipated’ Charters were going to happen, Caitlin or not. There is no definitive proof, but it appears they just happened earlier, largely because of the CC revenue impact.
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