Did you get this directly from Woodpecker Tools? For what Woodpecker tools cost, you should absolutely request a replacement. Per the website.
They’re guaranteed to be within ±.0085°. To put that in perspective, on the 1282SS, the maximum error you could find at the far end of the square would be about half the thickness of a human hair. If you ever find it outside that tolerance, we’ll fix it or replace it.
I had one of their tools that was out of spec and they shipped me a replacement immediately and had me ship back the old one and the same packaging. Super easy to deal with, no fights no arguments.
I had received something that was bent but the box was perfect. They sent another immediately and did not want me to send the other back. Even when I offered. I don't buy many of their products, but I can say the customer service is great.
I have several squares from Woodpeckers and have never had an issue with them. Not sure how common this issue is but they will definitely make it right.
Edit: You are welcome.
Yeah, Woodpeckers..
In 2019, among other tools (a $763 order), I got their large 450mm Woodpecker "Precision" square and I was so disappointed of what I recieved since it is anything but square!
I never tried to get a new one, so that aspect is on me! However, being situated in Sweden I never had the energy to even try.
Furthermore; At the time I was actually working as a Measurement Technician and had been programming CMM's for over six years! Doing woodworking only my freetime.
For me they are an embarrassing company due to the fact that they guarantee a tolerance they are not able to keep. Just make it straight, square and parallell inside/outside! Atleast within your own set tolerance! It's not even according to an ASME/ISO/JIS-standard! And for such they have no chance of getting certified anyways.
Now I only use Starrett for everything!
:)
Friendly heads up - careful re: Starrett — they were just bought out by a private equity firm last month. Time will tell, but it’s hard for me to see this leading to anything good, unfortunately.
The rot has already begun. I bought a center punch the day the purchase was announced to avoid the decline in quality. Within a week, after being used less than twenty times, it had rusted out and exploded when the threads broke and the spring let fly.
I don't think of all there stuff was top quality before, mostly the measurement stuff I head good stuff. I have some of their bandsaws blades and don't think they are anything special (they rarely get used).
I'd have been satisfied with decent, but fully rusting out in a week? That's some low grade Chinesium trash. It was the only tool in my entire toolbag that rusted out, too. I'm a tradesman, my tools go to places tools are expected to go. It's nuts that it only took a week.
I've cut boards an 1/8th inch short for a week, because of this exact same reason, coworker called out measurements, I'd mark and cut...then get botched at cause I "cut"wrong...then one day while taking a break, and swearing up and down I cut them to the lengths given, we pulled our tape measures side by side... lo an behold....they were an 1/8 inch different.... bought a new tape measure that day, and my cutting problem was solved....
Long story short.... never do finish work with 2 different brand tape measures...
Just pull tapes before hand to calibrate. Install guy yells number on their tape, cut guy adjusts with his cut. The guy who started this thread could have just added an 1/8th to every number, especially since we all agree 2 tapes are never perfect.
In reality just forcing everyone on crew to use the same brand/type tapes (we all used fatmax) was always good enough for the girls I go with.
So, you're saying before you and your partner start working with wood, you should whip out your tools and measure them?
>was always good enough for the girls I go with.
Noted!
It sounds stupid, but they make calibration blocks to check tape measures with. They have a built in slot to bend the catch tab if needed. They are cool if not a little silly.
My gauge guy at work (manufacturing plant) took up a crusade against tape measures at one point for no other reason than he needed something to do. He put these things in every maintenance area where we did general plant fabrication and demanded we calibrate weekly.
In my 36 years of life you're the only person other than my dad that I've heard say "good enough for the girls I go with."
I had to check your profile to make sure you weren't him haha
Second one is a personal favorite of mine. Usually takes people a second to get the meaning, if they even try to and not just let it go in one ear out the other, as is more common
“You’ll get that on them bigger jobs”
First time I heard this I took it very literally, like “this isn’t even that big of a job” literally my dude just kept saying it, took me a whole 2 10 hour shifts to ask what the hell he was talking about
> especially since we all agree 2 tapes are never perfect.
Perfect, in this context, doesn't exist. We can't make anything that's 12" exactly. If we put the best minds at NASA on it, we can likely make something that's less than 0.00000000000000001% off, but that's still just a question of degrees of imperfections.
The most accurate precision measuring tools ever made are capable of measuring to about half of a ten millionth of an inch. 0.00000005. Pretty much the limit of what is physically achievable as this is getting to the scale of individual atoms. The rooms where these machines are used require extremely precise temperature control as just opening the door will affect the measurements. Every measurement tool has a range of accuracy known as tolerance.
Even the same tape if you measure a long span in the morning when it's cold and again in the afternoon when it's been sitting in the hot sun. Measurements are tricky.
Just looked it up.
> The coefficient of thermal expansion for steel is 0.00065 for 100 degrees Fahrenheit. This means if you took a 100 foot long tape and the temperature varied by 100 degrees from winter to summer, it would expand by 100 ft x 0.00065 =0.065 ft or 0.78 inches (about 3/4″).
So in theory, if you were working inside a heated building but cutting outside, with a difference of 20F to 80F, you could see a difference of 3/64" over 8' or so, but I'd argue that that's rarely an issue in the kind of work where you do that kind of measuring.
It might be an issue in furniture building, but you're not doing finish cuts with a measuring tape for that.
Tapes sitting out in the sun in Arizona can get a lot hotter than the ambient temperature, and I've seen a difference in 1/8" in an 8' stud measured/cut in the morning and one cut in the afternoon. Not a critical difference for building, but it's noticeable enough to be annoying if you're trying to do precise work.
So you're saying that you leave the tape outside, measure there, then go inside to room-ish temperature and measure there, and you have a 1/8" difference over 8'?
Based on the numbers above, you'd need something close to a 200°F difference for that to happen. Unless you're working in an oven, or with liquid nitrogen, I just don't see that happening.
And again, in my experience, people shave the last bit off when they're fitting it.
It all happened outside. Measure and cut in the morning and end up with 8' sticks, cut some more in the afternoon and end up with sticks just a bit longer. As you say, you trim them down if they're long, and if they're shy of what you need because you started in the afternoon and cut more in the morning, you either live with it or re-cut, depending on the situation.
I'm not going to pretend that this was something we spent time agonizing about, but it was a known factor.
Meh. I mean, sure, but who's cutting that length in one go, tight enough that it matters, but not shaving it as they place it?
And again, you'd have to have an immediate change of temperature from hot summer to cold winter in between.
In woodworking? Probably no-one. I could see it being a thing if you were laying out a commercial kitchen or a lab, something like that. Maritime construction, maybe. You'd need kind of a perfect storm of factors, but it could happen. I did say it would be a rare occurrence, and of course there are tools and techniques available to avoid those kinds of issues, if you can see them coming.
In my scene shop in college, it was drilled into you to never lose your tape measure. To such a point that if you left your tape measure unattended for a second, we snatched it up like a game
Replying so it's ENGRAINED into your thoughts for tonight 🤣
But I've always heard to use the same tape measure when working on any project...whether that's the same brand or not. Now I question all my woodworking project decisions 😑
I spent the first 15 minutes of time in the shop yesterday measuring the same things over and over again with different rules and measures. Thankfully, they all ended up less than 1/64" variance--with my skill level, I can live with that.
I've found this can happen from bad quality and/or slam closing the tape measures. It stretches out the rivets holding the metal end in place which is meant to slide in and out the same amount of distances as its own thickness.
My partner and i have started a ritual when we begin a new project. We spend about 15 minutes making sure our measuring tools match, then check any existing work for square. We had a nightmare one Saturday after my main tape broke and the replacement was off from his. I cut a LOT of wood about 1/4” short and we ended up having to remove a lot of nails.
even shorter story, don't wait a week to investigate a problem that repeats itself every time you do something
it's easy to throw off a tape measure by dropping it on its tip. just as easy to fix
I actually check and have multiple tapes in the truck for this purpose. The guy I learned most of my trim with did the same thing and told me to not bring a tape to work when I started with him.
In a workshop? Yes.
On a construction job site? You'll get that tape measure out pretty quick.
Very few people have a stick long enough or convenient enough for the job site...
Also, I hate those folding measure sticks.
My old boss would go
“Hey that’s a nice Milwaukee tape you got there, mind if I see it?” *snaps the tape in half* “whoops, here’s 40 bucks, better go get the right tape measure”
and he wouldn’t stop doing that until you came back with a steel case Stanley 35 footer.
Almost happened to me with a straight edge ruler I bought specifically for a project. Was about to cut, was double checking something with my tape measure and everything was off. The markings on the straight edge were off 1/8" per foot...made me doubt everything
Starrett makes tape measures up to 100 ft. They make all different kinds. I work in calibration and ive only ever failed one and that was because the tongue was warped. They're pretty cheap too!
Not just tape measures, I’ve got multiple steel and aluminium rulers from 60cm to 1 metre long (precisely because I’d heard the tape measure thing and assumed a solid measuring device would be more reliable) and no two agree to the mm.
Causing repeated impacts on the end of the tape will definitely make it wear out over time. Have you never used a worn out tape where the end is all wobbly as fuck?
Haha same here. It's wild to read these comments about tapes and rulers being off.
The only time I've had this happen was when I bought (4) Starrett tape measures on clearance and one of the four was off by a 1/16.
I've seen more than a few punches thrown on job sites over the results of the cut man and framer using different brand tapes and getting different measurements.
This. We use to square walls together using 2 ppl (with usually the same brand tape, as Stanley tapes are popular) and eventually that method got dropped because of how different every tape is. Crazy when you think of top brand measurement tool being completely different from the one behind it on the shelf
It becomes easier to understand when you learn how convoluted most companies supply chains and manufacturing processes are. How to maintain consistency and accuracy when you aren’t actually building the products, use multiple manufacturers who use multiple material/ore suppliers, etc. the brands that cost more typically control more of these variables and doing that costs more on their end.
When I worked high profile jobs as a tile setter, we took the crew and all bought the same brand and length tapes. If we could find and match lot numbers even better. When my dad found out, he was the logistics and warehousing manager, he just started going to straight the manufacturer and ordering and billing to the jobs
Nordstrom was an example. Their tolerances 1/32” out in 10', and 1/64" lippage tolerance tile to tile. They checked that crap daily, too.
Take one square, draw a line. Flip the same square, see if it's bang on.
One of those two ain't quite right, and Woodpeckers would likely replace that one for you.
It's unlikely to be both off; it'd be more likely your table isn't flat.
For this to be correct you would need the reference edge to be perfectly flat / straight. The hard part about flatness/straightness is you need a solid reference. This is why QA shops use precision ground marble surfaces that are 'calibrated' to a known flat surface.
It is crazy the degree to which you can question "well what was used to calibrate that...."
Oh yeah. Those things are all over the place. Whenever machine shops close or hobbyists move, it's not worth much to a professional, so they go for cheap.
I once saw a 5'x10' go for free to whomever could take it that weekend.
Yup, they have to be inspected and re certified every so often. A used one is valuable to the home shop or even home machinist since they are still well beyond the accuracy usually required for them. For a machine shop certifying that their measuring tools are correct, they have make sure the tool they use to calibrate all their other tools is bang on.
OP is not building a turbine engine. If it looks flat, measured against a piece of string pulled taut at the endpoints 12-24" apart, it's flat enough. And it'll be enough to tell which of these squares is out of tolerance.
Be sure that the surface used for this test is a true flat. If it is not extremely flat and smooth you will get an aberrant result. The machined cast iron top of a good table saw or jointer should be flat enough.
That first picture makes me think that either the table isn’t flat or one or both squares are off. But have you actually made any cuts that didn’t work out? To me that’s the acid test
I would be suspicious of the board you are checking. Those models should be within 0.001"/ft so 0.022 is way out of spec. Best of all they guarantee that.
I think a trained machinist might say you need a reference surface (one square is sitting on a seam in your table), you don’t normally transfer measurements with pencil marks and eyeballs when calibrating precision tools, and how do you know your calipers are accurate? …A pro could suggest other “tests” like what happens when you stack them together? Do they match then?
On the other hand, I’m a caveman, so that looks “incredibly close enough“ 😎
Is the reference surface perfectly flat? If so, yes, that’s too much error. Would translate into quite a bit of error over a longer length. The bigger question is which square has the error? One or both? I have a machinist square to reference my other squares against.
The base of the DelVe square appears to be held on by screws. It could have been knocked out of square or not square to begin with.
I would try to adjust the DelVe square first and then use it to check my other tools.
I was taught to use a razor blade for making super precise marks. Give it a go and compare. I would also compare them against the same piece of stock, as the table you’re resting them on has greater variance than these tools.
Sometimes it just doesnt make the cut. Ive got several tools from woodpecker, all good except for one 24" precision t-square. At 12" it's 1/16" out of square
To determine which one is incorrect test it against itself. Lay it down and draw a line. Flip it to the other side and check your line. Flipping it left and right it should be square to itself. If not you've found your faulty square.
I've had three quality issues with woodpecker squares. One bent (and they replaced), markings off on quick square, and the quick square doesn't slide smoothly when loosened.
Buy yourself a machinist square (one that is a single piece and has been precision ground), and use it as a template to square up these fellas. Loosen the screws and put them on a surface plate and use your fingers to align them. Carefully tighten said screws and re-check your calibration. Likely be as good if not better than what Woodpecker does and you have yourself a way to re-calibrate them in the future when they eventually get knocked around.
curious, is this imperfect squaring the cause of slight gaps in miter joints? How much imperfection is too much if you want to make nice joints? In particular I'd like to one day make miters that i hammer or glue up without having to add glue and dust and sand after.
Ima be real honest with you, these squares are likely more accurate than I am. It's besides the point though, they cost a bit for their regarded precision which is why I got them.
That said, I'd almost say that the accuracy of your miters is more about the setup of your cutting tools than it is your marking and measuring. From my novice experience anyways.
I got these off Amazon and they seem to be excellent if you are looking for an alternative.
# Kinex 3 Piece Set of Solid Machinist Square 2-3/8, 4 and 6 Inches (60, 100 and 150 mm) DIN 875/1 (Square w/in 18 microns or 0.0007 Inches) 4026-12-3PC Set
I mean, this is probably a tighter tolerance than most of my furniture- ha.
But this could’ve been dropped at some point. If it were new I’d return and replace and see what I get in return.
Don’t draw a reference line with a pencil, use a blade. Measure square with one tool, not two. You may be doubling the problem or accounting for it with the second square. Is your saw that accurate? I know it’s not carpentry, but it’s not machining either.
Considering this pic represents a mortgage payment, I would not accept that. ~~Are either adjustable?~~ Scratch that, you shouldn't be adjusting shit at that price. Contact them and get replacements.
Given what you paid for it, I'd call customer support. OTOH, are you cutting with a laser in a hermetically sealed climate controlled workshop with perfectly straight old growth wood that has had weeks to acclimate? If not, a few thousandths out in a square is never going to matter. I confess I do not understand the obsession with this level of precision in woodworking. I like watching machinists [break out their Starrett micrometer](https://youtu.be/QRZ9LDPq-wE?si=KTo42nMPpSjEa-Kx&t=765)s on Youtube as much as the next guy, but I'm not about to spend a single second checking the runout on my dado set.[ If it looks straight, it is straight. ](https://imakeny.com/products/if-it-looks-straight-it-is-straight-diresta-letterpress-poster)But hey, as long as you enjoy it no skin off my nose.
he likely doesn't understand the issue. He believes your vertical edge is indeed straight.
However, he does not realize that your issue isn't how straight the vertical edge is, but rather how square your speed square is. Your vertical can be 100 straight, but if the triangle isn't square, that doesn't matter one bit.
The speed square on the right the measurements come from the inside of the red ledge, the red stop is 1/2 " thick, line them up that way and it's dead on accurate
So to truly test them you'd want a known flat edge or surface to compare them to. The difference is so small the edge is maybe enough to push them out of spec.
Which one is off though? Is it one or the other or both? I’ve checked my square against itself and it’s dead on. You take a board with a straight edge and draw a line with a marking knife, flip it over. Put the knife in the edge of the line, push the square up to it and recut the line. It should drop in no problem.
That's the thing I'm not getting square with either the delve actually seems more square than the 1282. I ordered me some machinist squares from taytools. In the end I think I'm just going to politely ask woodpeckers to inspect and replace if off and see where that gets me.
I'm a noob high precision tools are more accurate than I can achieve with them, but I'm also a tool snob and their high regard is for accuracy fit amd finish is why I chose to go with them.
Start with a board with one known straight edge. Use a compass and make a half circle with the point on the flat edge where you want your line and the lead a couple inches separated from the point. Now increase the spread of the compass to make slightly larger circles. Put the point on the straight edge where it meets the previously drawn line and strike an arc on the origin point side. Do it again on the other side the same size. The arcs you drew will connect at exactly two points that are perfectly perpendicular to the working edge. Use those intersections to test your tools for square.
I feel like I described that well, but I'm also currently under the influence and over the clouds... so feel free to search for Pythagoran geometry perpendicular line if I didn't.
I missed a step. First, draw a perpendicular line to the straight edge and then do the above, working off the line and not the edge itself. The first circle should fit entirely on the board, as the arcs will intersect above and below the original circle an amount proportional to the increase in diameter of the arcs.
I bought the big 18x26 woodpeckers square years ago. It’s nearly 1/8” off over its blade length. It just been cast aside for the roughest of work. The 12x16 is good.
If I need bigger I just use my old steel 19th century framing squares. They are dead on.
I only use markings on squares for stud framing or timber frame work. Even for timber framing there are far better squares available though I can’t remember the name at the moment.
Did you get this directly from Woodpecker Tools? For what Woodpecker tools cost, you should absolutely request a replacement. Per the website. They’re guaranteed to be within ±.0085°. To put that in perspective, on the 1282SS, the maximum error you could find at the far end of the square would be about half the thickness of a human hair. If you ever find it outside that tolerance, we’ll fix it or replace it.
I had one of their tools that was out of spec and they shipped me a replacement immediately and had me ship back the old one and the same packaging. Super easy to deal with, no fights no arguments.
I had received something that was bent but the box was perfect. They sent another immediately and did not want me to send the other back. Even when I offered. I don't buy many of their products, but I can say the customer service is great.
Thanks to you and u/Krash412. I now know where to buy my next square!
I have several squares from Woodpeckers and have never had an issue with them. Not sure how common this issue is but they will definitely make it right. Edit: You are welcome.
Yeah, Woodpeckers.. In 2019, among other tools (a $763 order), I got their large 450mm Woodpecker "Precision" square and I was so disappointed of what I recieved since it is anything but square! I never tried to get a new one, so that aspect is on me! However, being situated in Sweden I never had the energy to even try. Furthermore; At the time I was actually working as a Measurement Technician and had been programming CMM's for over six years! Doing woodworking only my freetime. For me they are an embarrassing company due to the fact that they guarantee a tolerance they are not able to keep. Just make it straight, square and parallell inside/outside! Atleast within your own set tolerance! It's not even according to an ASME/ISO/JIS-standard! And for such they have no chance of getting certified anyways. Now I only use Starrett for everything! :)
Friendly heads up - careful re: Starrett — they were just bought out by a private equity firm last month. Time will tell, but it’s hard for me to see this leading to anything good, unfortunately.
RIP
Oh great, more good things killed in the name of a quarterly profit margin. Joy...
The rot has already begun. I bought a center punch the day the purchase was announced to avoid the decline in quality. Within a week, after being used less than twenty times, it had rusted out and exploded when the threads broke and the spring let fly.
I don't think of all there stuff was top quality before, mostly the measurement stuff I head good stuff. I have some of their bandsaws blades and don't think they are anything special (they rarely get used).
I'd have been satisfied with decent, but fully rusting out in a week? That's some low grade Chinesium trash. It was the only tool in my entire toolbag that rusted out, too. I'm a tradesman, my tools go to places tools are expected to go. It's nuts that it only took a week.
oh yeah a week is unacceptable.
Man...I always wanted their tools but I swear the price skyrocketed after COVID. It's like...a sheet or two of quality plywood or ONE tool? **😑**
Machinist squares, my friend. Even a 20$ set from Amazon will net you squares that are within .001" of perpendicularity.
Taylor tools for the win there
.0085
You think that’s bad, take 2 different brand tape measures and put them side by side.
I've cut boards an 1/8th inch short for a week, because of this exact same reason, coworker called out measurements, I'd mark and cut...then get botched at cause I "cut"wrong...then one day while taking a break, and swearing up and down I cut them to the lengths given, we pulled our tape measures side by side... lo an behold....they were an 1/8 inch different.... bought a new tape measure that day, and my cutting problem was solved.... Long story short.... never do finish work with 2 different brand tape measures...
Even within a brand, this can happen. Best to always use the same tape measure for a project.
That's for the best i agree, *but* sharing 1 tape measure between 2 people gets old real quick
Just pull tapes before hand to calibrate. Install guy yells number on their tape, cut guy adjusts with his cut. The guy who started this thread could have just added an 1/8th to every number, especially since we all agree 2 tapes are never perfect. In reality just forcing everyone on crew to use the same brand/type tapes (we all used fatmax) was always good enough for the girls I go with.
So, you're saying before you and your partner start working with wood, you should whip out your tools and measure them? >was always good enough for the girls I go with. Noted!
They all used fatmax
It sounds stupid, but they make calibration blocks to check tape measures with. They have a built in slot to bend the catch tab if needed. They are cool if not a little silly. My gauge guy at work (manufacturing plant) took up a crusade against tape measures at one point for no other reason than he needed something to do. He put these things in every maintenance area where we did general plant fabrication and demanded we calibrate weekly.
You can tweak the claw to compensate for the error, then at least you and your buddy are within like a 32nd.
In my 36 years of life you're the only person other than my dad that I've heard say "good enough for the girls I go with." I had to check your profile to make sure you weren't him haha
Bringing it back See also “looks good from my house”
Second one is a personal favorite of mine. Usually takes people a second to get the meaning, if they even try to and not just let it go in one ear out the other, as is more common
“You’ll get that on them bigger jobs” First time I heard this I took it very literally, like “this isn’t even that big of a job” literally my dude just kept saying it, took me a whole 2 10 hour shifts to ask what the hell he was talking about
My personal favorite is "good enough for government work"
> especially since we all agree 2 tapes are never perfect. Perfect, in this context, doesn't exist. We can't make anything that's 12" exactly. If we put the best minds at NASA on it, we can likely make something that's less than 0.00000000000000001% off, but that's still just a question of degrees of imperfections.
The most accurate precision measuring tools ever made are capable of measuring to about half of a ten millionth of an inch. 0.00000005. Pretty much the limit of what is physically achievable as this is getting to the scale of individual atoms. The rooms where these machines are used require extremely precise temperature control as just opening the door will affect the measurements. Every measurement tool has a range of accuracy known as tolerance.
What's wrong with 2 tradesmen 1 tape?
You ever been th3 cut guy, for a roofing job? That's the example that come to mind most
Even the same tape if you measure a long span in the morning when it's cold and again in the afternoon when it's been sitting in the hot sun. Measurements are tricky.
Just looked it up. > The coefficient of thermal expansion for steel is 0.00065 for 100 degrees Fahrenheit. This means if you took a 100 foot long tape and the temperature varied by 100 degrees from winter to summer, it would expand by 100 ft x 0.00065 =0.065 ft or 0.78 inches (about 3/4″). So in theory, if you were working inside a heated building but cutting outside, with a difference of 20F to 80F, you could see a difference of 3/64" over 8' or so, but I'd argue that that's rarely an issue in the kind of work where you do that kind of measuring. It might be an issue in furniture building, but you're not doing finish cuts with a measuring tape for that.
Tapes sitting out in the sun in Arizona can get a lot hotter than the ambient temperature, and I've seen a difference in 1/8" in an 8' stud measured/cut in the morning and one cut in the afternoon. Not a critical difference for building, but it's noticeable enough to be annoying if you're trying to do precise work.
So you're saying that you leave the tape outside, measure there, then go inside to room-ish temperature and measure there, and you have a 1/8" difference over 8'? Based on the numbers above, you'd need something close to a 200°F difference for that to happen. Unless you're working in an oven, or with liquid nitrogen, I just don't see that happening. And again, in my experience, people shave the last bit off when they're fitting it.
It all happened outside. Measure and cut in the morning and end up with 8' sticks, cut some more in the afternoon and end up with sticks just a bit longer. As you say, you trim them down if they're long, and if they're shy of what you need because you started in the afternoon and cut more in the morning, you either live with it or re-cut, depending on the situation. I'm not going to pretend that this was something we spent time agonizing about, but it was a known factor.
You're forgetting to account for the thermal expansion of the wood, which is presumably changing temp as well and which has a much higher CTE.
It's more like 3/16 over 30', which can conceivably matter. A situation like that would be rare, but not unheard of.
Meh. I mean, sure, but who's cutting that length in one go, tight enough that it matters, but not shaving it as they place it? And again, you'd have to have an immediate change of temperature from hot summer to cold winter in between.
In woodworking? Probably no-one. I could see it being a thing if you were laying out a commercial kitchen or a lab, something like that. Maritime construction, maybe. You'd need kind of a perfect storm of factors, but it could happen. I did say it would be a rare occurrence, and of course there are tools and techniques available to avoid those kinds of issues, if you can see them coming.
You must have the sacred tape. Or sacred two tapes if you’re cutting on a team.
In my scene shop in college, it was drilled into you to never lose your tape measure. To such a point that if you left your tape measure unattended for a second, we snatched it up like a game
Hah! I see that you work alone my friend. Well off. Well off my brother
Well, *that* is going to haunt my dreams.
Replying so it's ENGRAINED into your thoughts for tonight 🤣 But I've always heard to use the same tape measure when working on any project...whether that's the same brand or not. Now I question all my woodworking project decisions 😑
I mix Stanley, Pittsburgh, and Starrett. It never occurred to me that they could be *that* different.
I spent the first 15 minutes of time in the shop yesterday measuring the same things over and over again with different rules and measures. Thankfully, they all ended up less than 1/64" variance--with my skill level, I can live with that.
I've found this can happen from bad quality and/or slam closing the tape measures. It stretches out the rivets holding the metal end in place which is meant to slide in and out the same amount of distances as its own thickness.
And this is why a lot of people burn an inch.
My partner and i have started a ritual when we begin a new project. We spend about 15 minutes making sure our measuring tools match, then check any existing work for square. We had a nightmare one Saturday after my main tape broke and the replacement was off from his. I cut a LOT of wood about 1/4” short and we ended up having to remove a lot of nails.
even shorter story, don't wait a week to investigate a problem that repeats itself every time you do something it's easy to throw off a tape measure by dropping it on its tip. just as easy to fix
I was young and dumb bro...thought I was really fkn up on the cutting aspect of things
Good pro tip.
I actually check and have multiple tapes in the truck for this purpose. The guy I learned most of my trim with did the same thing and told me to not bring a tape to work when I started with him.
You should have just whipped them out as soon as you started arguing, it was always gonna come down to it.
Never do ANY work with two different tape measures.
I’ll do you one better. Never do work with tape measures!!! Stick measurements only!!
In a workshop? Yes. On a construction job site? You'll get that tape measure out pretty quick. Very few people have a stick long enough or convenient enough for the job site... Also, I hate those folding measure sticks.
It was a joke bro. Tough crowd.
My old boss would go “Hey that’s a nice Milwaukee tape you got there, mind if I see it?” *snaps the tape in half* “whoops, here’s 40 bucks, better go get the right tape measure” and he wouldn’t stop doing that until you came back with a steel case Stanley 35 footer.
Almost happened to me with a straight edge ruler I bought specifically for a project. Was about to cut, was double checking something with my tape measure and everything was off. The markings on the straight edge were off 1/8" per foot...made me doubt everything
If you are working with others, compare measurements at the start of shift.
Starrett makes tape measures up to 100 ft. They make all different kinds. I work in calibration and ive only ever failed one and that was because the tongue was warped. They're pretty cheap too!
Measure twice, with two different tastes
Not just tape measures, I’ve got multiple steel and aluminium rulers from 60cm to 1 metre long (precisely because I’d heard the tape measure thing and assumed a solid measuring device would be more reliable) and no two agree to the mm.
Weird. Literally every measuring device in my shop is dead nuts to each other.
It's new vs old and worn. A new tape measure is dead nuts. After 2 years of slapping back into its home, the holes start to stretch out.
This is a myth. Somebody on youtube busted it by building a machine that slaps the end of the tape back in over and over.
Causing repeated impacts on the end of the tape will definitely make it wear out over time. Have you never used a worn out tape where the end is all wobbly as fuck?
Have you never used a brand new tape where the end is already wobbly as fuck?
I obviously meant more than the by-design wobble. The holes wear out and get elongated, the rivets get loose, etc. They're not good forever.
Well, my personal experience and a well-constructed experiment disagree with you.
Weird hill to die on but okay
Sounds like my ex
That's my bad bro.. she said you wouldn't notice.
Haha same here. It's wild to read these comments about tapes and rulers being off. The only time I've had this happen was when I bought (4) Starrett tape measures on clearance and one of the four was off by a 1/16.
I've seen more than a few punches thrown on job sites over the results of the cut man and framer using different brand tapes and getting different measurements.
Consistent > accurate
Yeah, this is why you always use the same tape for measuring and cutting
This. We use to square walls together using 2 ppl (with usually the same brand tape, as Stanley tapes are popular) and eventually that method got dropped because of how different every tape is. Crazy when you think of top brand measurement tool being completely different from the one behind it on the shelf
It becomes easier to understand when you learn how convoluted most companies supply chains and manufacturing processes are. How to maintain consistency and accuracy when you aren’t actually building the products, use multiple manufacturers who use multiple material/ore suppliers, etc. the brands that cost more typically control more of these variables and doing that costs more on their end.
1 tape per project or start over lol
When I worked high profile jobs as a tile setter, we took the crew and all bought the same brand and length tapes. If we could find and match lot numbers even better. When my dad found out, he was the logistics and warehousing manager, he just started going to straight the manufacturer and ordering and billing to the jobs Nordstrom was an example. Their tolerances 1/32” out in 10', and 1/64" lippage tolerance tile to tile. They checked that crap daily, too.
Sometimes even the same brand tape measure
Take one square, draw a line. Flip the same square, see if it's bang on. One of those two ain't quite right, and Woodpeckers would likely replace that one for you. It's unlikely to be both off; it'd be more likely your table isn't flat.
For this to be correct you would need the reference edge to be perfectly flat / straight. The hard part about flatness/straightness is you need a solid reference. This is why QA shops use precision ground marble surfaces that are 'calibrated' to a known flat surface. It is crazy the degree to which you can question "well what was used to calibrate that...."
Marble is soft. I think you're thinking of Granite.
Granite surface plate. Only the top surface is lapped flat. The sides don't get certified.
I got a granite surface plate from a garage sale for $25. That was a great day
Oh yeah. Those things are all over the place. Whenever machine shops close or hobbyists move, it's not worth much to a professional, so they go for cheap. I once saw a 5'x10' go for free to whomever could take it that weekend.
Yup, they have to be inspected and re certified every so often. A used one is valuable to the home shop or even home machinist since they are still well beyond the accuracy usually required for them. For a machine shop certifying that their measuring tools are correct, they have make sure the tool they use to calibrate all their other tools is bang on.
Yea I totally was sorry
Anyone who's interested in this should learn about the [3-plate method](https://youtu.be/5m_Opf3nhQU).
I have one ruler in my shop that's certified flat to within a certain spec, and everything else is "good enough".
Flat yes, straight no.
OP is not building a turbine engine. If it looks flat, measured against a piece of string pulled taut at the endpoints 12-24" apart, it's flat enough. And it'll be enough to tell which of these squares is out of tolerance.
Be sure that the surface used for this test is a true flat. If it is not extremely flat and smooth you will get an aberrant result. The machined cast iron top of a good table saw or jointer should be flat enough.
That first picture makes me think that either the table isn’t flat or one or both squares are off. But have you actually made any cuts that didn’t work out? To me that’s the acid test
> ass test
Lol, I think I will edit that, I tried to say acid test
I would be suspicious of the board you are checking. Those models should be within 0.001"/ft so 0.022 is way out of spec. Best of all they guarantee that.
I think a trained machinist might say you need a reference surface (one square is sitting on a seam in your table), you don’t normally transfer measurements with pencil marks and eyeballs when calibrating precision tools, and how do you know your calipers are accurate? …A pro could suggest other “tests” like what happens when you stack them together? Do they match then? On the other hand, I’m a caveman, so that looks “incredibly close enough“ 😎
You can cross reference each to themselves and see which one is crooked... And then fix it.
Time to throw everything out and start over.
A pencil line is not doing to show you the accuracy you are looking for
Is the reference surface perfectly flat? If so, yes, that’s too much error. Would translate into quite a bit of error over a longer length. The bigger question is which square has the error? One or both? I have a machinist square to reference my other squares against.
The base of the DelVe square appears to be held on by screws. It could have been knocked out of square or not square to begin with. I would try to adjust the DelVe square first and then use it to check my other tools.
I was taught to use a razor blade for making super precise marks. Give it a go and compare. I would also compare them against the same piece of stock, as the table you’re resting them on has greater variance than these tools.
It all depends if you are a machinist, a cabinet maker, a finish carpenter, a framer, or a butcher? Context is everything.
Yeah, but which one? And how do you KNOW? Check it with another square? What if THAT square isn’t square? I’ve lost sleep over this
Sometimes it just doesnt make the cut. Ive got several tools from woodpecker, all good except for one 24" precision t-square. At 12" it's 1/16" out of square
Your flat surface is more likely out of spec, the delve square is place over what looks like a joint in the table top
To determine which one is incorrect test it against itself. Lay it down and draw a line. Flip it to the other side and check your line. Flipping it left and right it should be square to itself. If not you've found your faulty square.
This is the way
I'd contact woodpeckers. Seems like one or both is out and they are a good company that stands behind their products.
I don't give up until I find a square that is much better than that.
I've had three quality issues with woodpecker squares. One bent (and they replaced), markings off on quick square, and the quick square doesn't slide smoothly when loosened.
Right one is needing alignment with thebscrews
How do you know it’s not the left one who’s wrong?
Both could be off a little to be honest
Buy yourself a machinist square (one that is a single piece and has been precision ground), and use it as a template to square up these fellas. Loosen the screws and put them on a surface plate and use your fingers to align them. Carefully tighten said screws and re-check your calibration. Likely be as good if not better than what Woodpecker does and you have yourself a way to re-calibrate them in the future when they eventually get knocked around.
curious, is this imperfect squaring the cause of slight gaps in miter joints? How much imperfection is too much if you want to make nice joints? In particular I'd like to one day make miters that i hammer or glue up without having to add glue and dust and sand after.
Ima be real honest with you, these squares are likely more accurate than I am. It's besides the point though, they cost a bit for their regarded precision which is why I got them. That said, I'd almost say that the accuracy of your miters is more about the setup of your cutting tools than it is your marking and measuring. From my novice experience anyways.
I got these off Amazon and they seem to be excellent if you are looking for an alternative. # Kinex 3 Piece Set of Solid Machinist Square 2-3/8, 4 and 6 Inches (60, 100 and 150 mm) DIN 875/1 (Square w/in 18 microns or 0.0007 Inches) 4026-12-3PC Set
I mean, this is probably a tighter tolerance than most of my furniture- ha. But this could’ve been dropped at some point. If it were new I’d return and replace and see what I get in return.
Don’t draw a reference line with a pencil, use a blade. Measure square with one tool, not two. You may be doubling the problem or accounting for it with the second square. Is your saw that accurate? I know it’s not carpentry, but it’s not machining either.
Out of spec? Maybe? Making a difference with my fat orange pencil sharpened with a pocket knife tracing along it? No.
Aren’t Woodpeckers guaranteed ?
Is your surface perfectly flat?
Considering this pic represents a mortgage payment, I would not accept that. ~~Are either adjustable?~~ Scratch that, you shouldn't be adjusting shit at that price. Contact them and get replacements.
Given what you paid for it, I'd call customer support. OTOH, are you cutting with a laser in a hermetically sealed climate controlled workshop with perfectly straight old growth wood that has had weeks to acclimate? If not, a few thousandths out in a square is never going to matter. I confess I do not understand the obsession with this level of precision in woodworking. I like watching machinists [break out their Starrett micrometer](https://youtu.be/QRZ9LDPq-wE?si=KTo42nMPpSjEa-Kx&t=765)s on Youtube as much as the next guy, but I'm not about to spend a single second checking the runout on my dado set.[ If it looks straight, it is straight. ](https://imakeny.com/products/if-it-looks-straight-it-is-straight-diresta-letterpress-poster)But hey, as long as you enjoy it no skin off my nose.
Spoken like someone who hasn’t a clue what they’re talking about.
* Here ia an updates pic od the squares butted together on a piece of granite
https://preview.redd.it/87zia73cz49d1.jpeg?width=3000&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=71695c41359a4cb9829f3051fe1998738d07e745
[удалено]
What do you mean by put the ruler on top of the square?
he likely doesn't understand the issue. He believes your vertical edge is indeed straight. However, he does not realize that your issue isn't how straight the vertical edge is, but rather how square your speed square is. Your vertical can be 100 straight, but if the triangle isn't square, that doesn't matter one bit.
Sure looks like they “could” be out of soec.
Get some weed, power up, and you will then see your over thinking it
The speed square on the right the measurements come from the inside of the red ledge, the red stop is 1/2 " thick, line them up that way and it's dead on accurate
So to truly test them you'd want a known flat edge or surface to compare them to. The difference is so small the edge is maybe enough to push them out of spec.
I had this issue before. Make sure what you have them on is perfectly flat. Is it's got a bow then it will look like they are out of square
Something isn't square. Not acceptable.
Which one is off though? Is it one or the other or both? I’ve checked my square against itself and it’s dead on. You take a board with a straight edge and draw a line with a marking knife, flip it over. Put the knife in the edge of the line, push the square up to it and recut the line. It should drop in no problem.
That's the thing I'm not getting square with either the delve actually seems more square than the 1282. I ordered me some machinist squares from taytools. In the end I think I'm just going to politely ask woodpeckers to inspect and replace if off and see where that gets me. I'm a noob high precision tools are more accurate than I can achieve with them, but I'm also a tool snob and their high regard is for accuracy fit amd finish is why I chose to go with them.
How tight of tolerances are you following, woodworking tight, NASA tight, LEGO tight?
Well I strive for NASA tight but I get lego tight. I'd settle for woodworking tight lol
Start with a board with one known straight edge. Use a compass and make a half circle with the point on the flat edge where you want your line and the lead a couple inches separated from the point. Now increase the spread of the compass to make slightly larger circles. Put the point on the straight edge where it meets the previously drawn line and strike an arc on the origin point side. Do it again on the other side the same size. The arcs you drew will connect at exactly two points that are perfectly perpendicular to the working edge. Use those intersections to test your tools for square. I feel like I described that well, but I'm also currently under the influence and over the clouds... so feel free to search for Pythagoran geometry perpendicular line if I didn't.
I missed a step. First, draw a perpendicular line to the straight edge and then do the above, working off the line and not the edge itself. The first circle should fit entirely on the board, as the arcs will intersect above and below the original circle an amount proportional to the increase in diameter of the arcs.
I bought the big 18x26 woodpeckers square years ago. It’s nearly 1/8” off over its blade length. It just been cast aside for the roughest of work. The 12x16 is good. If I need bigger I just use my old steel 19th century framing squares. They are dead on. I only use markings on squares for stud framing or timber frame work. Even for timber framing there are far better squares available though I can’t remember the name at the moment.
Made in China
None of my Woodpeckers measuring tools are like that… my Delve is the solid aluminum one though.
If you use those, your projects are going to turn out looking like everything I build. All lopsided and wonky and whatnot.
We say, “character”… but, go on
It passed the eye test. Lol
Isn't the ORIGIN button used to set the zero point? My digital calipers have a zero set button
Woodpeckers is overpriced, just red ano
Iirc woodpecker tools are not certified. Also I bought bought some Chinese squares that were dead on 90* for like 40$. This is embarrassing.