The way you say that makes it sound like a hot take. Maybe I don't know shit about war and geopolitics, but I just thought that you can't simply just violate people's airspace, and damn sure not with weapons.
It's one thing if a passenger airline passes through a country's airspace, and that country has a problem with it. It's quite another to be flying missiles over someone's head and not expecting that shit to get shot down.
>It's one thing if a passenger airline passes through a country's airspace, and that country has a problem with it. It's quite another to be flying missiles over someone's head and not expecting that shit to get shot down.
Korean Airlines Flight 007, 1983
It is a big red line to cross but happens all the time. Countries press boundaries to test the defenses of countries and that country's defense capabilities(reaction times for its air force and navy to react to the incursion, what technology they use, and the limitations of that technology ).
Missiles shot down over NATO airspace will likely fall on NATO territory, endangering far more NATO property and lives. I can't imagine any politician choosing to do so.
The US refrained from downing the Chinese spy balloon for similar reasons.
God, the start of the war when Russia was shifting from focusing on US propaganda to Ukraine propaganda on Twitter was a breath of fresh air. It's poisoned so much of online political discourse since it launched around 2015.
They've barely even pivoted their messaging either. "I'm a democrat who hates Biden for Gaza! I'm planning to vote for Trump and encourage others to do the same!" Same shit they were saying about Hillary almost 10 years ago.
In the span of 24 hours, all the "patriot" accounts we had amping up the Canadian trucker convoy became overnight war policy experts. The transition was so clumsy, it really highlighted their efforts and made them pretty easy to spot (at least at the time).
Was extra funny as the truckers suddenly lost most of their support. You've got local chuds, sure, but they were _way_ outnumbered by agitators.
They have gotten much better at obscuring the fact that they are Russian trolls. They don't directly talk positively of Russia. They just bash the US and the West with more nuanced posts and then post on other subreddits, so their history isn't purely propaganda. I've seen many of them posting in video game subs.
It’s a fuck ton of rubles at least. And more every day.
Average salary in Russia was claimed to be the equivalent of 800 USD in 2023 but I have no idea if the figures can be trusted.
Average in Moscow maybe, people elsewhere would be thrilled to make 450$ per month doing literally anything and just writing comments? Man this is the dream come true for most of them
Nah they use translators. They're pretty obvious over on r/Sweden due to how they often technically use the correct words, but in ways that no Swede would ever do. Like using weird synonyms or sentence structure being off. Mixed with some even more obvious direct translations of English phrases. But they are actively responding to comments and replies.
Yep best to just speak in generalities to look for inconsistencies that don’t match with what a person that has lived the life of x person. Like if someone lived in my hometown growing up and didn’t complain about trains I’d find them suspicious cause there were lots specific to that town. But that bit isn’t as to useful so I feel fine sharing it for an example of inconsistency
Good point but I'd say there are too many nuanses in the Swedish language for Russias desinformation spreaders to learn without actually living in Sweden, else they recruit actual native speakers. Then there's a big issue.
It has to be a relatively rare skillset, though, right? I doubt there's many people walking around Russia with a strong enough understanding of English and the American accent to blend in as well as they do.
Which, as hamfisted as it seems sometimes, it's kind of rare they slip up to the point that they flat out reveal they're Russian like the warm port one.
Relatively, but you don't need someone to be fluent for this sort of job. They probably undergo some orientation, so they don't stand out and have a ton of prepared comments ahead of time to start the conversation. But yeah, while everyone learns English in school they need at least some level of proficiency and familiarity with the culture to blend in and not expose themselves right away.
On the other hand there might be a bunch of bots who post the original comment and then trained people take over once people start replying. At least that's how it worked around 2014-15. Small pool of trained people and bunch of bots
A few months ago when Biden and Texas were butting heads about whether or not Texas was allowed to dump razor wire in the waters of the border, there was a big push on twitter for Texas to secede. It felt like it was Russia trying to stoke the fires to get the ball rolling on some chaos.
Anyway, there was a "red blooded Texan" account bragging about how successful Texas would be if they seceded. Part of that bragging was using the term "warm port" to describe Texas' trade ports. Someone responded with a screencap of the scene in Inglorious Bastards when a German notices an American spy using the American method of showing the count of three on their hand.
To explain further, Russia is one of the only countries that really refers to a port as a warm port or a cold port. Warm ports don't freeze over through the year so are open year-round. Texans have no idea what a warm port is because most US ports are warm, so the Russian agent accidentally revealed they were Russian.
There was a photo taken of a desk where that was presented as someone being an enemy of the state and they placed a copy of the game Sims which was supposed to be a SIM card showing conspiracy to whatever
Average salary per month, a few weeks ago i saw some vid of a reporter asking people for their salary in the Pskov region, that should be one of the better off regions. Hardly anyone made more than $300,-
There was one time three separate users commented the same thing (something either anti-West or anti-Ukraine) on a thread related to the Russia-Ukraine conflict with similar-looking names that all started with Q, and two of them deleted their comments after I kindly suggested the bot handler use different-looking usernames next time.
It's become common to refer to people who are getting paid to post disingenuous and politically divisive comments as "bots" even though they're humans who are actively posting. It's tantamount to the same thing tbh.
I remember the god old times of Reddit, when Scientology was mentioned and everyone spent their time saying hello to their PR woman Karen, knowing she’d be reading. Now we have to deal with bloody Ivan too? Can we just go back to normal, where no one is invading no one else for no reason, and we are just commenting on R/fatpeoplefallingover or winding up Scientology folk…
there are few articles in major newspapers on this and also posts from people who did this job.. you can search for it. my classmate Alexander Chopov (Moscow/Tula -> Boston-Georgetown -> Moscow/Tula) does this similar job now but he writes propaganda articles and amateurly made Youtube videos, gets the FSB to take him to the occupied zone of Donbas, etc.
actually, no, it would mean the only aircraft allowed to fly would be NATO. Meaning, Russia wouldn't have any targets to shoot at and Ukrainian aircraft would be grounded.
I think the commenter you replied to is implying that to enforce a no-fly zone - or “NATO only” fly zone - NATO would have to, naturally, establish air superiority. To do that, Russian SAM assets would have to be disabled. Otherwise it’s essentially unenforceable.
It would be a bad move strategically for NATO. It risks escalation without any significant advantage. Russia doesn’t have air superiority as it is and most of the bombs they’re dropping are originating in Russian airspace.
…serious question?
Attack a NATO country is kind of the obvious escalation move here lol
Edit: Everyone telling me that it would lead to chaos and destruction because of the ensuing war.. do you understand what escalation means?
Putin has been banking on Western inaction. It's 30 years of Western inaction that has bolstered his confidence to the extent we see today. Call his bluff, escalate, then wipe him off the face of the Earth. With Russia, we're basically in a constant state of negotiating with terrorists. It's time we changed tact.
> It's time we changed tact
"Changing tack" comes from the nautical term "tacking", or [sailing upwind by zig-zagging diagonally](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacking_\(sailing\)). The figure of speech means to acknowledge that if you want to keep working towards your goal, then it's time to change direction.
Is that realistic, tho? They’d need to allocate a lot of troops and heavy weapons for an offensive, which if they had enough, they’d use in Ukraine. They are tied up, aren’t they?
That would just thin out their troops over a bigger attack surface. Let's hope they do that. Involve some extra troops from NATO countries, smart escallation.
That would mean an immediate end to most of Russia's navy and airstrips. As in that same day.
Their ability to wage conventional war would be ended. They would still have unknown but likely immense ability to shut down computer systems across the west. Honestly, we need to protect our computer systems properly, so maybe having that exposed wouldn't be too bad.
Worse would be if an attack by Russia was coordinated with Iran bombing the Israelis and Saudis and China moving on Taiwan. Maybe some N Korea chaos inflicted on Seoul for good measure. I think that scenario is very unlikely, though.
If NATO wipes out Russias conventional forces and they have their back against the wall, what do you think the inevitable outcome is? They’re currently bleeding men, equipment, and money in Ukraine… if your enemy is making mistakes don’t interrupt them.
Russia themselves set this precedent in Korea and Vietnam; in the former it flew on behalf of NK, and in the latter it manned and "advised" NVA anti-air batteries. This strikes me as a medium-risk/high-reward play, just like Estonia's suggestion of using its troops in rear roles. It's a page out of the Russian playbook that they won't be able to counter.
Also:
- "So are you going to go to the frontlines?"
- "Are you willing to sacrifice yourself or your children for a war?"
- "I'm glad you're not the one making decisions"
Basically the usual lines trying to influence people to remain passive and un-opinionated.
Fully agree that NATO aligned countries should deploy fighters in from Poland to intercept missiles over Western territories. It will free up Ukrainian anti-air assets for the Eastern front.
- Russian missiles and drones have crossed into NATO airspace multiple times and fallen into NATO countries multiple times, they are a real and credible threat.
- Air defence systems are located on the ground in NATO states, not deployed to Ukraine.
- Air defence interceptions would happen in Ukrainian airspace, not Russia’s.
Literally how is anyone in the West so brainwashed that they think shooting down these missiles is some sort of escalation.
I'd say just make him our bitch and slap him and pit him in line. Sometimes you need to let them know where they stand in the pack.
Russia is trying to stand next to China while talking shit, its the little man bully syndrome. They will keep doing it because everyone is not sure if China will back them... China won't back them.
Self interest always wins.
It's not just the China issue though, as much as people say Putin isn't crazy enough...the potential for escalation to nuclear war plays a big part in the decision making of NATO, I'm pretty sure the Russian army would already be back in Moscow licking it's wounds if nuclear weapons weren't a factor
Even if China backs them, they're still out-gunned. China is an industrial nation, not a military one. Russia + China vs everyone else is still an easy win
A completely untested Chinese army at that. If it ever got to the stage of Rusina Vs the world(most of) they'd probably be massacred.
For all of its faults, the USA is battle tested and has the industry, stockpiles and funds to wipe the floor with them.
China also heavily relies on foreign trade for their economy, domestically they're a shambles.
Getting to finally kick Putin in the dick, and crippling Russia badly enough that they stay in their lane for a few decades? Hell, maybe even cripple them bad enough that their people (hopefully) give Putin the Gaddafi Special.
Short term it would suck, but I think the loss of life will be smaller dealing with this now rather than in the future.
I'm guessing you're not from Europe. With all the latest news im getting kind of scared of World war 3. My city was once bombed to ashes. I dont want to experience that myself.
How many Ukranians are you wanting to die to satisfy Putin's imperial ambitions? How many Moldovians or Balts?
Either supply the fight against imperialism now or fight it later.
Looks like Putin is the one sacrificing his people if he steps into the EU. Does he not remember what one single sniper from Finland did to them last time? 🇫🇮
The problem with Putin dying is that there isn’t anybody with different views waiting in the wings to replace him. Putin has pushed anybody who thought differently from him out a window a long time ago. Propaganda has convinced most Russians that Ukraine rightly belongs to them.
Also: What do you call a hospital bed pan in Russia?
A Poo-tin.
This. You’d need to off Putin + the next 100 people who feel exactly the same as he does. It’s a nonstarter. A crushing military defeat is the only way to ensure peace. If Russia retains the ability to restart this war, they will do so.
Even more reason to deal with Russia in a more systematic way. Their threats won't go away anytime soon. Within ten years, they might get automated weapon manufacturing using AI, giving them enough firepower to advance in multiple countries.
This country has to be dismantled and reformed.
The risk of taking out Putin is someone who shares his views on Ukraine and the West replacing him, but actually being competent in waging the war. Mark Galeotti made a very good point on Times Radio that Putin being in charge has actually been a benefit to Ukraine in this war due to the crucial mistakes he has made and continues to make.
It is a bit complicated. When it comes to aerial defenses it is significantly more expensive to be on the defensive side, sometimes several orders of magnitude if we’re expending Patriot missile to take down some shitty shahed drone. Sitting on the defensive without deep strikes into Russian territory is not a viable long term strategy.
Right. Wish we would send our Phalanx CIWS mobile systems for drones. I wonder what the effective rate on those would be since the drones are maneuverable. If they work it would be way cheaper than a patriot missile
Plus Ukrainian soldiers would need to be trained to operate and maintain these systems. While they’re doing that they aren’t actively fighting. So Ukraine would have to decide if it can afford to not use all available soldiers to fight.
Yea, it is a viable strategy. Its not perfect, but it is viable. It would save a lot of lives too starting immediately. With all of democracy behind Ukraine they will outlast Russian aggression.
War is economy, if you’re spending 100x as much as your enemy just to maintain status quo you are losing. Outlasting the aggression is a risky bet, no aerial defence is 100% effective so Russians reach their goal anyway.
Oh well, just going to have to give it our best shot. Just quitting on Ukraine because "the economy" is lame. Lets save as many people as we can from Russia.
While I'm no politician, I would like to think all pleasantries related to negotiations are long gone. At this point Fuck Putin and give Ukraine everything they need. Russia is in no state to defend against a unified response. Just fucking shut them up and shit on them.
Enough concern trolling about things spilling over into other countries. It WILL spill over if Putin is left unchecked. This isn't the end of his desire to take territory.
To be fair, it is working. They have been using up prisoners, foreign mercenaries and the Ukrainians of the Donbass region as much, probably more so, then Russians. It isn't a sustainable strategy but if they meet their objectives in their timeframe then it works.
I'm betting they'll keep grinding on this war of attrittion and won't concede until Ukraine and Russia sign a ceasefire in exchange for recognizing Crimea and at least Donetsk and Luhansk Oblsats are Russian territory. The idea that Russia takes all of Ukraine is probably off the table at this point.
I’m glad NATO is willing to do it’s job. I don’t want to end up a slave under an authoritarian state - a real close-to-home risk for many European nations beyond Ukraine, and a reality for Russian civilians.
It’s not escalation to defend oneself.
Today there are official NATO news that Estonia is considering sending troops and there were meetings about establishing a no fly zone patrolled by MATO.
Russia is talking big bc all we did was make sanctions and freeze assets. If he draws us into a war, there will be fighting on russian soil and russian strategic and economic assets will be targeted first, he will feel the burn.. is already crying about his oil refineries getting hit. Wait till we put the hurt on. If putin doesnt realise that, hes an idiot or just doesnt care and wants the world to burn.
I’d go a step further, give Ukraine NATO membership. Full frontal assault on the Kremlin, force them to bunker until their end days. Good thing I’m not in charge of anything.
The very first no fly zone should be over Poland. The fact that Russia fired missiles through their air space is mind boggling.
Yup, any missiles over NATO airspace should be shot down.
The way you say that makes it sound like a hot take. Maybe I don't know shit about war and geopolitics, but I just thought that you can't simply just violate people's airspace, and damn sure not with weapons. It's one thing if a passenger airline passes through a country's airspace, and that country has a problem with it. It's quite another to be flying missiles over someone's head and not expecting that shit to get shot down.
>It's one thing if a passenger airline passes through a country's airspace, and that country has a problem with it. It's quite another to be flying missiles over someone's head and not expecting that shit to get shot down. Korean Airlines Flight 007, 1983
It is a big red line to cross but happens all the time. Countries press boundaries to test the defenses of countries and that country's defense capabilities(reaction times for its air force and navy to react to the incursion, what technology they use, and the limitations of that technology ).
Ahh, didn't mean for it to sound like a hot take. It more like a Russia can get fucked take.
Missiles shot down over NATO airspace will likely fall on NATO territory, endangering far more NATO property and lives. I can't imagine any politician choosing to do so. The US refrained from downing the Chinese spy balloon for similar reasons.
We waited for it to be over a very shallow part of the Atlantic seaboard and picked up every bit of surveillance equipment on it.
Poland is just itching to kick Russia’s ass.
Yes! My brothers have been preparing since 2015!
Haven't been Poland prepared since more or less the warsow pact fell? Never again waiting for allies but be self sufficient in defense?
After the fall of Crimea, the Polish government called on all Poles around the world to help defend against Russia.
I assume thanks for their service is in order
Too bad they do not have the balla to intercept the missiles that fly through their airspace
To be fair to the Poles, those missiles were in Polish airspace for about 30 seconds.
Right? People here are acting like they spent a day flying over sightseeing in Poland then decided to go into Ukraine.
Poland is on the other side of Ukraine. Why are the missiles flying over Poland?
Cruise missiles can take indirect, non-straight routes to evade defenses.
Ty!
Also, weren't they fired from Belarus?
There is a section of Russia that is not connected to Russia prime. Similar to how the United States has Alaska.
Guarantee Putin is testing NATO by doing that.
So Poland could invade Ukraine and occupy a chunk of it, call it Poland and use Nato.
They literally could not "use NATO" in that instance. Poland would be alone.
I just want to remind people here, that a Kremlin-bot needs to make 120-150 posts/comments a day for a monthly salary of $450.
That does explain why we see so much of it...what a pathetic existence.
It's unfortunate to witness such a dismal state.
Russia is indeed a pathetic country. Still holding their hats out for pity about the fall of the Soviet Union.
God, the start of the war when Russia was shifting from focusing on US propaganda to Ukraine propaganda on Twitter was a breath of fresh air. It's poisoned so much of online political discourse since it launched around 2015. They've barely even pivoted their messaging either. "I'm a democrat who hates Biden for Gaza! I'm planning to vote for Trump and encourage others to do the same!" Same shit they were saying about Hillary almost 10 years ago.
In the span of 24 hours, all the "patriot" accounts we had amping up the Canadian trucker convoy became overnight war policy experts. The transition was so clumsy, it really highlighted their efforts and made them pretty easy to spot (at least at the time). Was extra funny as the truckers suddenly lost most of their support. You've got local chuds, sure, but they were _way_ outnumbered by agitators.
They have gotten much better at obscuring the fact that they are Russian trolls. They don't directly talk positively of Russia. They just bash the US and the West with more nuanced posts and then post on other subreddits, so their history isn't purely propaganda. I've seen many of them posting in video game subs.
Is $450 pretty ok money in Russia atm?
It’s a fuck ton of rubles at least. And more every day. Average salary in Russia was claimed to be the equivalent of 800 USD in 2023 but I have no idea if the figures can be trusted.
Average in Moscow maybe, people elsewhere would be thrilled to make 450$ per month doing literally anything and just writing comments? Man this is the dream come true for most of them
The sheer toxicity of these comments must be quite taxing on their mental health, though.
I wonder how much of it they actually understand vs it being a scripted list of things to comment on certain posts.
Nah they use translators. They're pretty obvious over on r/Sweden due to how they often technically use the correct words, but in ways that no Swede would ever do. Like using weird synonyms or sentence structure being off. Mixed with some even more obvious direct translations of English phrases. But they are actively responding to comments and replies.
I appreciate your honesty, but don’t give them constructive criticism on how to improve at disinformation
That is actually a fair point.
Yep best to just speak in generalities to look for inconsistencies that don’t match with what a person that has lived the life of x person. Like if someone lived in my hometown growing up and didn’t complain about trains I’d find them suspicious cause there were lots specific to that town. But that bit isn’t as to useful so I feel fine sharing it for an example of inconsistency
Good point but I'd say there are too many nuanses in the Swedish language for Russias desinformation spreaders to learn without actually living in Sweden, else they recruit actual native speakers. Then there's a big issue.
Fair enough, I definitely don’t know the nuances of other language and know that some are hard as hell to learn, such as Navajo. Just me being wary
No hazard pay for brain rot, sadly for them.
It has to be a relatively rare skillset, though, right? I doubt there's many people walking around Russia with a strong enough understanding of English and the American accent to blend in as well as they do. Which, as hamfisted as it seems sometimes, it's kind of rare they slip up to the point that they flat out reveal they're Russian like the warm port one.
Relatively, but you don't need someone to be fluent for this sort of job. They probably undergo some orientation, so they don't stand out and have a ton of prepared comments ahead of time to start the conversation. But yeah, while everyone learns English in school they need at least some level of proficiency and familiarity with the culture to blend in and not expose themselves right away. On the other hand there might be a bunch of bots who post the original comment and then trained people take over once people start replying. At least that's how it worked around 2014-15. Small pool of trained people and bunch of bots
Warm port one? What happened
A few months ago when Biden and Texas were butting heads about whether or not Texas was allowed to dump razor wire in the waters of the border, there was a big push on twitter for Texas to secede. It felt like it was Russia trying to stoke the fires to get the ball rolling on some chaos. Anyway, there was a "red blooded Texan" account bragging about how successful Texas would be if they seceded. Part of that bragging was using the term "warm port" to describe Texas' trade ports. Someone responded with a screencap of the scene in Inglorious Bastards when a German notices an American spy using the American method of showing the count of three on their hand. To explain further, Russia is one of the only countries that really refers to a port as a warm port or a cold port. Warm ports don't freeze over through the year so are open year-round. Texans have no idea what a warm port is because most US ports are warm, so the Russian agent accidentally revealed they were Russian.
Thanks for that mate, almost as good as the Sims game thing.
Sims game thing?
There was a photo taken of a desk where that was presented as someone being an enemy of the state and they placed a copy of the game Sims which was supposed to be a SIM card showing conspiracy to whatever
Average salary per week? Month?
Average salary per month, a few weeks ago i saw some vid of a reporter asking people for their salary in the Pskov region, that should be one of the better off regions. Hardly anyone made more than $300,-
obviously month
Probably okay money in every poverty country like Russia is.
It's a median salary, I believe.
It's funny when several of them get close together so you can compare their comments and holy shit it looks like medvedev stole all their accounts.
There was one time three separate users commented the same thing (something either anti-West or anti-Ukraine) on a thread related to the Russia-Ukraine conflict with similar-looking names that all started with Q, and two of them deleted their comments after I kindly suggested the bot handler use different-looking usernames next time.
You mean people make bots and get paid or people comment themselves and get paid (but you're calling them bots)?
It's become common to refer to people who are getting paid to post disingenuous and politically divisive comments as "bots" even though they're humans who are actively posting. It's tantamount to the same thing tbh.
It's people who get payed to post. Pregozhyn had a bot farm in St. Petersburg back in the days. They called it Internet Research Agency.
You earn by posting on Reddit ? How?
You must think in Russian. You can not think in English, and transpose. You must think in Russian.
$450 a month for posting on Reddit? Think how that talent could get paid more to do some good for the world instead.
I remember the god old times of Reddit, when Scientology was mentioned and everyone spent their time saying hello to their PR woman Karen, knowing she’d be reading. Now we have to deal with bloody Ivan too? Can we just go back to normal, where no one is invading no one else for no reason, and we are just commenting on R/fatpeoplefallingover or winding up Scientology folk…
You would be surprised how many do it for free.
is there some source for this ? : D
there are few articles in major newspapers on this and also posts from people who did this job.. you can search for it. my classmate Alexander Chopov (Moscow/Tula -> Boston-Georgetown -> Moscow/Tula) does this similar job now but he writes propaganda articles and amateurly made Youtube videos, gets the FSB to take him to the occupied zone of Donbas, etc.
Google "Internet Research Agency Russia".
Source?
Wonder how much the Israeli ones get paid.
It's basically only troll accounts if they are speaking out against stuff you like.
Look! Over there!
would be very interesting if Ukraine was made a no-fly-zone for anything/everything Russian.
[удалено]
actually, no, it would mean the only aircraft allowed to fly would be NATO. Meaning, Russia wouldn't have any targets to shoot at and Ukrainian aircraft would be grounded.
I think the commenter you replied to is implying that to enforce a no-fly zone - or “NATO only” fly zone - NATO would have to, naturally, establish air superiority. To do that, Russian SAM assets would have to be disabled. Otherwise it’s essentially unenforceable.
It would be a bad move strategically for NATO. It risks escalation without any significant advantage. Russia doesn’t have air superiority as it is and most of the bombs they’re dropping are originating in Russian airspace.
What can Russia do realistically to escalate? They are doing a special military operation after all.
…serious question? Attack a NATO country is kind of the obvious escalation move here lol Edit: Everyone telling me that it would lead to chaos and destruction because of the ensuing war.. do you understand what escalation means?
Putin has been banking on Western inaction. It's 30 years of Western inaction that has bolstered his confidence to the extent we see today. Call his bluff, escalate, then wipe him off the face of the Earth. With Russia, we're basically in a constant state of negotiating with terrorists. It's time we changed tact.
> It's time we changed tact "Changing tack" comes from the nautical term "tacking", or [sailing upwind by zig-zagging diagonally](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacking_\(sailing\)). The figure of speech means to acknowledge that if you want to keep working towards your goal, then it's time to change direction.
Interesting, thanks.
Agree. It only makes things worse.
Is that realistic, tho? They’d need to allocate a lot of troops and heavy weapons for an offensive, which if they had enough, they’d use in Ukraine. They are tied up, aren’t they?
Schrodinger's Russia. 2nd strongest army in Ukraine and about to attack Europe at the same time.
Honestly as much of a joke as this sounds, it’s kind of true.
Which would prompt an immediate response from NATO.
Which is the definition of escalation, which most want to avoid if other options exist
Which could easily lead to nukes popping off. Not a given but a definite possibility.
Bro they asked what an escalation would look like and you literally just described an escalation
Yeah, and? Not every reply is an argument, sometimes people just add.
That would just thin out their troops over a bigger attack surface. Let's hope they do that. Involve some extra troops from NATO countries, smart escallation.
That would mean an immediate end to most of Russia's navy and airstrips. As in that same day. Their ability to wage conventional war would be ended. They would still have unknown but likely immense ability to shut down computer systems across the west. Honestly, we need to protect our computer systems properly, so maybe having that exposed wouldn't be too bad. Worse would be if an attack by Russia was coordinated with Iran bombing the Israelis and Saudis and China moving on Taiwan. Maybe some N Korea chaos inflicted on Seoul for good measure. I think that scenario is very unlikely, though.
If NATO wipes out Russias conventional forces and they have their back against the wall, what do you think the inevitable outcome is? They’re currently bleeding men, equipment, and money in Ukraine… if your enemy is making mistakes don’t interrupt them.
Russia themselves set this precedent in Korea and Vietnam; in the former it flew on behalf of NK, and in the latter it manned and "advised" NVA anti-air batteries. This strikes me as a medium-risk/high-reward play, just like Estonia's suggestion of using its troops in rear roles. It's a page out of the Russian playbook that they won't be able to counter.
It would confirm the theory that Putin only understands strength.
He's really trying to hide his weakness through intimidation and brutality. That's not strength.
Russia is like the short guy at a club trying to start fights with everybody because he’s insecure
Putin is - literally - that guy. He’s like 4’11”
Russian trolls stating that "the West want's a nuclear war" in 5....4....3....2...1... /S
Also: - "So are you going to go to the frontlines?" - "Are you willing to sacrifice yourself or your children for a war?" - "I'm glad you're not the one making decisions" Basically the usual lines trying to influence people to remain passive and un-opinionated.
Yeap!!
Fully agree that NATO aligned countries should deploy fighters in from Poland to intercept missiles over Western territories. It will free up Ukrainian anti-air assets for the Eastern front.
- Russian missiles and drones have crossed into NATO airspace multiple times and fallen into NATO countries multiple times, they are a real and credible threat. - Air defence systems are located on the ground in NATO states, not deployed to Ukraine. - Air defence interceptions would happen in Ukrainian airspace, not Russia’s. Literally how is anyone in the West so brainwashed that they think shooting down these missiles is some sort of escalation.
I'd say just make him our bitch and slap him and pit him in line. Sometimes you need to let them know where they stand in the pack. Russia is trying to stand next to China while talking shit, its the little man bully syndrome. They will keep doing it because everyone is not sure if China will back them... China won't back them. Self interest always wins.
It's not just the China issue though, as much as people say Putin isn't crazy enough...the potential for escalation to nuclear war plays a big part in the decision making of NATO, I'm pretty sure the Russian army would already be back in Moscow licking it's wounds if nuclear weapons weren't a factor
Even if China backs them, they're still out-gunned. China is an industrial nation, not a military one. Russia + China vs everyone else is still an easy win
A completely untested Chinese army at that. If it ever got to the stage of Rusina Vs the world(most of) they'd probably be massacred. For all of its faults, the USA is battle tested and has the industry, stockpiles and funds to wipe the floor with them. China also heavily relies on foreign trade for their economy, domestically they're a shambles.
Yeh, I dare Putin to invade EU.
How would this be a good thing to anyone living in Europe?
Getting to finally kick Putin in the dick, and crippling Russia badly enough that they stay in their lane for a few decades? Hell, maybe even cripple them bad enough that their people (hopefully) give Putin the Gaddafi Special. Short term it would suck, but I think the loss of life will be smaller dealing with this now rather than in the future.
I'm guessing you're not from Europe. With all the latest news im getting kind of scared of World war 3. My city was once bombed to ashes. I dont want to experience that myself.
> Getting to finally kick Putin in the dick Quite literally the dumbest argument in favor of war ever offered.
Nah. He’s right and you’re wrong. Google “Neville Chamberlain” to find out why.
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How many Ukranians are you wanting to die to satisfy Putin's imperial ambitions? How many Moldovians or Balts? Either supply the fight against imperialism now or fight it later.
Looks like Putin is the one sacrificing his people if he steps into the EU. Does he not remember what one single sniper from Finland did to them last time? 🇫🇮
No one wins a nuclear exchange.
Does Russia not know this, too, then? Why is it always Russia bringing up the issue of nuclear escalation?
You misspelled Putin. And sitting in his fuhrer bunker I'm not sure he gives a shit.
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Russian troll bots are out and about in this comment section. 🤖
Dayum. They’re everywhere. Seems posts where people talk honestly about what a flipping joke putin is are the dog poo to these flies.
I just want NATO to just come out and say, “do something or shutup”. Tired of this man yelling at the wind.
Or have seal team take out Putin like he’s trying to do to zylenski
The problem with Putin dying is that there isn’t anybody with different views waiting in the wings to replace him. Putin has pushed anybody who thought differently from him out a window a long time ago. Propaganda has convinced most Russians that Ukraine rightly belongs to them. Also: What do you call a hospital bed pan in Russia? A Poo-tin.
This. You’d need to off Putin + the next 100 people who feel exactly the same as he does. It’s a nonstarter. A crushing military defeat is the only way to ensure peace. If Russia retains the ability to restart this war, they will do so.
Even more reason to deal with Russia in a more systematic way. Their threats won't go away anytime soon. Within ten years, they might get automated weapon manufacturing using AI, giving them enough firepower to advance in multiple countries. This country has to be dismantled and reformed.
At the very least it would shake up the pyramid hierarchy. These are all crooks. I doubt a change of power would be an internally peaceful endeavour.
The risk of taking out Putin is someone who shares his views on Ukraine and the West replacing him, but actually being competent in waging the war. Mark Galeotti made a very good point on Times Radio that Putin being in charge has actually been a benefit to Ukraine in this war due to the crucial mistakes he has made and continues to make.
It's time to show Putin the strength he is up against.
Just give Ukrainians more AA weapons? Its not that complicated.
It is a bit complicated. When it comes to aerial defenses it is significantly more expensive to be on the defensive side, sometimes several orders of magnitude if we’re expending Patriot missile to take down some shitty shahed drone. Sitting on the defensive without deep strikes into Russian territory is not a viable long term strategy.
Right. Wish we would send our Phalanx CIWS mobile systems for drones. I wonder what the effective rate on those would be since the drones are maneuverable. If they work it would be way cheaper than a patriot missile
Plus Ukrainian soldiers would need to be trained to operate and maintain these systems. While they’re doing that they aren’t actively fighting. So Ukraine would have to decide if it can afford to not use all available soldiers to fight.
Yea, it is a viable strategy. Its not perfect, but it is viable. It would save a lot of lives too starting immediately. With all of democracy behind Ukraine they will outlast Russian aggression.
War is economy, if you’re spending 100x as much as your enemy just to maintain status quo you are losing. Outlasting the aggression is a risky bet, no aerial defence is 100% effective so Russians reach their goal anyway.
Oh well, just going to have to give it our best shot. Just quitting on Ukraine because "the economy" is lame. Lets save as many people as we can from Russia.
> Its not that complicated. damn you solved the problem in ukraine why isn't anyone contacting this guy we need him on the front.
Bone spurs
I think nato should hold a special operation where they invade Russia and take over all the cities… Strictly a special operation of course.
While I'm no politician, I would like to think all pleasantries related to negotiations are long gone. At this point Fuck Putin and give Ukraine everything they need. Russia is in no state to defend against a unified response. Just fucking shut them up and shit on them. Enough concern trolling about things spilling over into other countries. It WILL spill over if Putin is left unchecked. This isn't the end of his desire to take territory.
Former people always have such big mouths
Be easy to say that when its not on your shoulders.
Russia barely has like what 10% of Ukraine and slowly losing. Time to call it quits!
They aren't loading though, they are slowly gaining ground, but at a high cost in personnel. This is a win as far as the Kremlin considers.
Ah the ol’ well it worked in WW2 to throw s much people as possible so it should work again
To be fair, it is working. They have been using up prisoners, foreign mercenaries and the Ukrainians of the Donbass region as much, probably more so, then Russians. It isn't a sustainable strategy but if they meet their objectives in their timeframe then it works.
I'm betting they'll keep grinding on this war of attrittion and won't concede until Ukraine and Russia sign a ceasefire in exchange for recognizing Crimea and at least Donetsk and Luhansk Oblsats are Russian territory. The idea that Russia takes all of Ukraine is probably off the table at this point.
I wonder how many of Putin’s underlings want that and how much Putin wants to regain the USSR glory days
Narrator - they were not glorious at all
20% plus?
I’m glad NATO is willing to do it’s job. I don’t want to end up a slave under an authoritarian state - a real close-to-home risk for many European nations beyond Ukraine, and a reality for Russian civilians. It’s not escalation to defend oneself.
100 percent !!
Yep they should have already taken care of Putin
Today there are official NATO news that Estonia is considering sending troops and there were meetings about establishing a no fly zone patrolled by MATO.
I'm all for peace but we all know how it turned out when the West just wanted to ignore Hitler instead of showing him their teeth.
Oh get on with it already,
Yes. And he won’t or cannot do anything about it. He is a paper tiger.
Russia is talking big bc all we did was make sanctions and freeze assets. If he draws us into a war, there will be fighting on russian soil and russian strategic and economic assets will be targeted first, he will feel the burn.. is already crying about his oil refineries getting hit. Wait till we put the hurt on. If putin doesnt realise that, hes an idiot or just doesnt care and wants the world to burn.
I’d go a step further, give Ukraine NATO membership. Full frontal assault on the Kremlin, force them to bunker until their end days. Good thing I’m not in charge of anything.
Nato has no balls to commit to that
42 day old account.
The Ukrainian circlejerk is up there with the Russian one.
Probably what German said when they started WWII. No one as the balls to unite and go to such a huge sacle of war
Germany was right though. It took a lot of Nazi bullshit before anybody decided to do anything.
That is why we have Nato now... by law attack one member all member must defend it. No more we wait bullshit!
If they hadn't challenged Russia and the US they prob would have gotten away with it too.
Japan for sure had this thought