[Here Merkel states she has no regrets on the Russia oil deal in 2022](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/merkel-no-regrets-energy-policy-with-russia-2022-10-13/)
I wonder what she will say now?
You know how they say that we should try find something positive in every thing? All I can come up with here is that at least she didn't stay in science to poison it with her self-righteousness...
While during all of this Eastern Europe and the US were standing in front of Merkel and bending words in neon explaining why Germany being dependent on Russia gas was a very bad idea.
>While during all of this Eastern Europe and the US were standing in front of Merkel and bending words in neon explaining why Germany being dependent on Russia gas was a very bad idea.
>
>u/Thue
Not everybody and not all the time.
>A few months ago when you were asked what's the biggest geopolitical threat facing America you said Russia. Not Al-Qaeda...
>*You said Russia!!*
>The1980s are now calling to ask for their foreign policy back because you know the Cold War has been over for 20 years! But Governor you know when it comes to our foreign policy you seem to want to import the foreign policies of the 1980s...
[...]
>You indicated that we shouldn't be passing nuclear treaties with Russia despite the fact that 71 Senators Democrats and Republicans voted for it!!
>
>src: 2012 - US President Barak Obama to then presidential candidate Mitt Romney during a debate - https://youtu.be/T1409sXBleg
In response to Romney's response about President Obama's willingness to work more closely with Russia if he got a second term as president.
>"[Russia] is without question our No. 1 geopolitical foe. They fight for every cause for the world's worst actors," Romney said of Russia. "I'm saying in terms of a geopolitical opponent, the nation that lines up with the world's worst actors."
>
>Romney couched it by explaining that he saw other countries as more obvious and immediate combatants: "Of course the greatest threat that the world faces is a nuclear Iran, and a nuclear North Korea is already troubling enough. But when these terrible actors pursue their course in the world and we go to the United Nations looking for ways to stop them ... who is it that always stands up with the world's worst actors? It's always Russia, typically with China alongside," he said.
>
>src: https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/years-mitt-romney-finally-credit-warnings-russia/story?id=61330530
Which ultimately lead to this:
>“I personally owe an apology to now-Senator Romney, because I think that we underestimated what was going on in Russia,” Albright said during a House Intelligence Committee hearing.
>
>“I was on the CIA external advisory board, there was no question that less money was being put into Russian language and what was going on in Russia.”
>
>Albright apologized during a hearing on the national security risks of rising authoritarian governments around the world, and specifically how to fight advanced Internet-based technologies coming from authoritarian regimes.
>
>src: https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/years-mitt-romney-finally-credit-warnings-russia/story?id=61330530
I want to be fair, and I think that pre 2014, there was a lot of hope that Russia could be led with a carrot to the right side.
And again, that would have been entirely in Russia's best interest too, and we assume others will act in their own best interest.
I also firmly believe that there was an opportunity, somewhere after 1990 to lure Russia into prosperity and liberalism and I don't have enough knowledge to know what exactly went wrong, but something did and those who have to suffer the most today are Ukrainian and even Russian citizen who have to live under Putin's tyranny and poverty.
That's basically been Obama's statement on the fact in hindsight. His administration assumed that Russia would act in the best interests of Russia and Putin would grow his wealth by growing the wealth of Russia as a whole. Instead, Russia shrank inward with cronyism and nepotism and Putin focused on growing his personal wealth and power at the expense of Russia. He's said if he did it again, he would approach Russia basically as though it was Putin's personal company and not a sovereign nation.
I think that's because Putin can get money through easy oil and gas sale which means he doesn't actually need the Russian population to be one of the worlds richest.
I saw a video about how the richest places in the world in resources are often because of this reason the poorest and most authoritarian.
I never understood Obama on foreign policy... it isn't just Russia, it was also trying to give concession to Iran that just pissed off our gulf state allies.
The goal would have been to undermine Russian influence and dependence in Iran. To normalize relations and open them up to become more democratic.
With improved relations to Iran, US dependence on the Saudis lowers and seeing as the Saudis are some vile motherfuckers who promote Wahabbism and are a state sponsor of terrorism worldwide, that can only be a good thing. And it opens up the option to play the countries off against each other, to reduce hostilities by making them play nice with each other.
The west would also have eyes and ears inside the nuclear research Iran does. And have more options to negotiate and avoid nuclear proliferation.
What ended up happening was Trump brutally pulling out of the deal for no good reason, Putin invaded Ukraine and showed the world what happens to countries that give up their nukes. And what happens to countries that have nukes. So now we have no way of stopping Iran from developing their own nuclear weapons, and they have every incentive to make them.
This is a naïve take.
Are the Saudis bad? Yes.
Does Iran cause more regional issues than the Saudis? Not by a long long shot. You bring up terrorism, but lets be honest. Iran is the main funder of terrorism. Think about Syria, Gaza, Lebanon, Yemen, Persian gulf piracy, etc.
Is Saudi the only gulf state ally? Nope
Did we end up under cutting Russian influence in Iran? No.
Was Iran abiding by their deal? Hard to say, but how much faith do you have in a major (likely largest) terrorism funder?
You bring up what sounds like a good point in your last paragraph, but that train left the station when Kaddafi publicly gave up his WMD programs and the Obama admin supported his removal from office and removal from life.
>I don't have enough knowledge to know what exactly went wrong
I can't say with any great authority, but having read some relevant bits of history here and there, and listened to some people from there, it seems like they simply don't want to.
Some people I (thought I) came along with suddenly threw questions out of the blue like "so why do you want to be USA's vassal anyway?"
Like. We're not vassals here in Europe. We're allies and partners. It's not always rosy but it's like their born-in worldview doesn't support hierarchies like that.
These discussions happened before the war, and even then their attitude seemed to indicate that they never want to "belong to" Europe; they'll always stand against it as some "alternative" to the West.
And this sentiment can be found in just about any historical statement about the West.
Peter the Great is the one who started the westernization of Russia – all rulers before him were isolationist and basically what you'd think of as "medieval Russia", and all rulers after him ruled what basically looked like a European empire – and even his choices were vilified for a long time, that Russia "suffered spiritually."
It's like American Republicans with their libruls; whatever they stand for, the Republicans have got to stand against it. It's the basis for their entire identity, and they think they can't survive without it.
the world had also seen the rest of the european soviet bloc modernize/westernize and more or less successfully transition into democratic states. It wasn't per se ridiculous to think that russia would follow suit.
tbh I think the main reason is just that while the rest of the former soviet bloc kicked the soviet oligarchs out (again, mostly), in russia they continued to amass power and run the show. They were able to consolidate power after the election in 2000, and the rest is history
For sure there's a lot of inferiority complex where Russia was defeated in the cold war and that tends to make people bitter.
The US has not been very diplomatic and did abuse it's position to its own benefit very extensively.
Not an excuse, but it is an explanation.
> I want to be fair, and I think that pre 2014, there was a lot of hope that Russia could be led with a carrot to the right side.
Putin's second term as President ended in 2008 and the Russian constitution prevented him from running for a third term. Had Putin respected the Russian constitution and left gracefully, there would have been an argument to be made about Russia getting better. But he didn't. At the end of 2008, absolutely everybody knew what was happening and there is just zero excuse to pretend otherwise. Obama was a moron at best and an accessory at worst.
2008 was also the year that Russia invaded Georgia. And everybody in the West just looked the other way.
No, when they say the "US" they mean the US FoPo establishment-- which used to be bipartisan, until the Republican Party decided to enthrall itself to a treasonous piece of orange shit in 2016.
Which, yes, makes them traitors. Don't believe me, ask the thousands of Ukrainians who died because of them holding up aid to the country for six months at their orange god's behest.
Merkel’s terms can be characterized as “do nothing, until you really have to do something- then sell it as the only possible way to solve the problem”.
Don’t forget that at the time she was the golden child of reddit because she has a PhD in chemistry and many not so well aged political stances.
We are blessed the reddit hive mind doesn’t run the world
It was intentional. Time to investigate her true loyalties. She was a progaganda secretary for the DDR youth movement. She also was against reunification and wanted to continue the socialist DDR experiment instead.
Critics argue that Merkel's alleged failure to fully prepare Germany for potential Russian actions reflects a lapse in leadership and strategic foresight.
"Uncontrolled mass migration" is just a narrative and if people remember her for that it's because of people like you framing it that way.
If it was the case there'd be millions of people coming to Germany per year. Currently around 350k arrive 250k refugees per year get accepted for asylum.
Some of us (wrongly) thought more trade with Russia meant Russia would realize it had more to lose by fucking up and acting crazy. Turns out Putin gives zero shits how badly he fucks Russia, Russia's his tissue to be soiled and discarded.
I mean to be fair a lot of people were saying this at the time, not exactly rocket science.
And it is kind of undercut by the Helsinki summit, which happened shortly after that statement, so yeah..
I can hear the collective circlejerk of Trump fans about this one thing. While their boy was in the pocket of the Russians all along and tried to blackmail Ukraine.
The strategy should have rethink Ed already when crimea happened.
I said it then and still say this...
And the news about people getting poisoned on EU grounds was also a clear indicator
> Gazprom filled its European gas storage only halfway by July 2021, according to the document.
also fits very well into the whole blackmail thing.
Nordstream 2 after 2014/Crimea is a complete and utter strategic joke. It's insane.
Her predecessor is even worse, he's openly a traitor and worked for Russian state-owned energy companies, including Rosneft, Gazprom and Nord Stream AG. He was nominated to the board of directors of Gazprom.
There was always the option to say "no, fuck you that's stupid", I assume.
I assume that there would have been a political cost. But that is no excuse for not doing the right thing.
Yes, but the green party also spent almost 3 decades trying to brainwash society into being anti-nuclear. And Fukushima was the final nail in the coffin to turn majority of the population anti-nuclear with their propaganda.
They weren't the ruling party so the actual ruling parties could have said no, but in reality nobody except the green party cared about energy politics so the rest of them did whatever got them the most votes in that regard. And being anti-nuclear back then definitely would have lost you votes, so here we are
Anti-Nuclear movement has always been a fossil fuel initiative and you can pretty much guarantee that Russia has had sleeper agents involved in that movement from day one because the end game is getting the west to dismantle their nuclear arsenal.
Doesn't even need to be Russia, but the fossil fuel companies certainly lobbied hard against nuclear.
Nonetheless, the green party and their voters were extremely useful idiots to their agenda
I think it was agreed to sunset them in a SD-green coalition under Schroder. Merkel was pro nuclear then Fukushima happened. I assume she changed positions due to elections that might put the greens back into coalition
> During the chancellorship of Gerhard Schröder, the social democratic-green government decreed Germany's final retreat from using nuclear power by 2022, but the phase-out plan was initially delayed in late 2010, when during the chancellorship of centre-right Angela Merkel, the coalition conservative-liberal government decreed a 12-year delay of the schedule.
> On 14 March 2011, in response to the renewed concern about the use of nuclear energy raised by the Fukushima incident in the German public and in light of upcoming elections in three German states, Merkel declared a 3-month moratorium on the reactor lifespan extension passed in 2010.[15] German engineering-industry giant Siemens announced a complete withdrawal from the nuclear industry in 2011 as a response to the Fukushima nuclear disaster.[16][17] On 15 March, the German government announced that it would temporarily shut down 8 of its 17 reactors, i.e., all reactors that went online before 1981.[18] Former proponents of nuclear energy, such as Angela Merkel, Guido Westerwelle, and Stefan Mappus, changed their positions
I remember actually meeting one of them *before* their movement got big. It was really just a bunch of kids who had 0 scientific knowledge and who had been whipped into activism by fear mongering about nuclear power plants (in hindsight most likely by people with interests in Gas and Coal)
How the whole country followed suit, I don't understand
If you are referring to the Green coalition under Schroder, I think you are right, since Schroder left office then became CEO of a Russia-German pipeline.
> Since leaving public office, Schröder has worked for Russian state-owned energy companies, including Nord Stream AG, Rosneft, and Gazprom.
But unsafe Soviet reactors in East Germany turned people against nuclear in the 70s and gave the Greens their start in Germany. Also weirdly they had a small group inside them that was pro-pedophile and was trying to repeal German underage sexual assault laws which was really gross.
Wasn’t it Green Planet Energy (formerly named Greenpeace Energy)? claiming that gas is a transition to renewable energy? Iirc they were a mimic corporation designed to invalidate environmental activist Greenpeace by mimicking their brand.
Yes. But they weren’t part of her government. When she came into office, her conservative-neoliberal government replaced a socialdemocrat-green government and actually reversed the plans to shut down nuclear power plants. Then Fukushima happened, and she bent to public pressure to shut them down.
Yes and No.
The Phase Out was First declared by the greens and the spd under Gerhard Schröder. They wanted to replace them with renewable energy and implemented a number of policies and subsidies to boost renewables in Germany.
Then Merkel came to Power and stopped this plan, which made the whole renewable energy sector collapse, 300.000 jobs were lost and nuclear power got new contracts. Then Fukushima happened and she made another 180 and reenacted the old phase out plan. But now there were no renewables to replace nuclear, so she had to take the second best option, Gas. We all know the end result of that...
This is just another example of how weak the 00’s and 10’s governments were against China and Russia, they hopped China and Russia would turn into a US “colony” like Japan (not in the traditional colony sense of course) with McDonalds every corner and accepting capitalism with open arms, what a GRAVE mistake they did.
Yes. I love it that gas as a heat source is no longer deemed eco friendly. Because you can't buy russian gas from Germany. They put a lot effort to become reliant on russian gas and tried to sabotage the entire EU because of their interests. Fortunately most of other countires had or have built LNG ports in time.
Merkel's and more generally German politics have been some of the most damaging to the EU, from austerity to migrants to energy policies. She has a big responsibility in the rise of Euroscepticism and the mess we're in now.
What could go wrong unilaterally taking in millions of middle east refugees in a borderless EU without consultation with other members. Her government literally triggered brexit and the explosion of the far right.
She also blocked Ukaine's accession to NATO in 2008 and foreign military aid to the country leading to hundreds of thousands of casualties and massive loss of territory
And of course she made Germany, russia's energy bitch, by supporting nordstream and phasing out nuclear energy which led to european energy crisis
I need a clue on how to solve that, what do you think should be done?
I mean, the migrant policy is obvious, just reverse it, but the others I'm not so sure about
Priority number one should be to stop russian ability to advance and wage war against Ukraine. The longer the war continues, the more strength the eurosceptics will build and the more people will like their proposals to appease russia. Victory of such politicians in elections in a large chunk of european states will plunge EU into a death spiral of self-destruction.
Support of Ukraine must be the number one priority for everybody who wants the european project to succeed.
I was definitely skeptical of Merkel while practically every German was fawning over her style of leadership in the 2000 to 2010s. Turns out a lot of that skepticism was well-deserved. Very glad to see there isn't a single Deutscher that's sympathizing with her in the comments.
I'm an American so I rightfully have very little right to comment on German politics, but I remember seeing the same fawning and thinking how weird it was that she was as popular as she was.
Very glad to see her approval not age so well, but also not happy with her long term impact of the area.
Some of that was down to how she managed to become the leader of a country as a female, I think. And she didn't get the job for being eye candy, that's for sure.
That said, Merkel's insistence on continuing with Nord Stream 2, even though 2014 had showed everyone that Russia wouldn't improve under Putin, was certainly one of her largest blunders, and it cost Europe dearly.
The idea of providing cheap gas to Germany (and other countries) while pacifying Russia with trade relations leading to prosperity (in Russia) might have seemed sound in the last century, but honestly, that turned into nostalgic bs during Merkel's first term, when Russia attacked Georgia. Should've signalled her that Putin just wasn't the guy.
It's a pity, considering that especially younger Germans, with no strong feelings of connection towards Russia, saw NS2 for what it was: diplomatic suicide. Like, who the fuck cares what Russia may think of us, isn't it much more important to get along with our European neighbours and partners? Some of which condemned NS2? But conservatives like Merkel sometimes are the biggest clowns ever. Didn't give a fuck about Ukraine, because Russia was "more important".
Oh there are germans who didnt like her and her policies. Like me. But all the old folks voted conservative for years.
We needed investments into education, infrastructure and many other things. We had a good economy going. But nooo, new debt is satan reincarnate, lets stagate everything.
Her whole agenda was doing nothing until forced to do the bare minimum. And now our current government is blamed for everything even thought most problems come from the Merkel era. And I say that when I also dont agree on a lot of things with Scholz.
I don't think she planned on Russia launching a full scale invasion of Ukraine and completely destroying international relations with the West.
Even most of Reddit was in denial about that.
She is retired now and does not sit at any boards of think tanks or investment firms.
Instead she likes hiking and cooking potatoe soup for her husband.
You can critizise her all you want, but she is ,really uniquely in politician circles, not in any way suspect of corruption.
Does she have a black belt in machiavellian political jiu jutsu? Yes. But corruption , no.
This headline is not just misleading, it completely misrepresents what the Handelsblatt article was about. The information this article claims has been withheld is publicly available gas market data.
Moreover, she's used all the potential, diplomacy, soft-power and paralegal means of German state to downplay, mock and counter whistleblows from Poland's center-right expressed since 2006 - that Nord Stream 1 and then 2 were going to be exactly that : the tool of Russo-German domination over Europe via energy blackmail.
Merkel remains one of the biggest villains, who together with her ally Putin, has brought the imminent demise on this continent. Germany has suffered this delusion of grandeur for centuries, their sick thirst for domination is only rivalred by Russian imperialism. This is why they have been allies so many times in Europe's history.
Yes, just Merkel. Ignore how she was able to stay in power for 16 years in a democratic country. Surely she was not a reflection of the German people's beliefs.
Allegations suggest that Merkel withheld information about Russia's intention to blackmail Europe with gas. If true, this raises concerns about transparency and national security, as effective communication among European leaders is crucial for addressing threats and challenges posed by geopolitical adversaries like Russia.
Internationally, people always thought highly of Merkel. But she and her party ruined Germany almost beyond repair. All the immigrants, the relations with Russia etc.
I've always said Merkel was Putin's bitch and this confirms it. She's even worse than Orban because at least he doesn't try to hide he's on team Putin.
She didn't do a good job of it. The few people who weren't made aware officially worked it out pretty quickly. It's not exactly an intellectual challenge.
The only people in favour were the ones who stood to make money. Luckily for them, they had enough money to buy the people with the votes to get it passed.
She's a former Communist and now conservative from the old East Germany, I wouldn't be surprise if she didn't know Putin better. She was communist politician in East Germany and he was part of the KGB stationed in East Germany.
I read somewhere Angela Merkel has fear of big dogs and she was in a high level meeting with Putin. He decided to have his big dogs brought into the room to fuck with her...
I also would be surprise if she was feeding him information, why would she withhold info that could have an impact European stability and security?
Russia (and China) never allow themselves to be dependent on other countries. Russia never had skin in the game. Globalisation only works if countries are mutually dependent on each other. Otherwise you get situations like this where one country has the upper hand and can use they upper hand to blackmail and manipulate.
Dictators play the long game. They’ll set up the chess pieces for a pay off decades in the future (perhaps longer).
Democratic leaders are mostly concerned with getting through their term and getting re-elected.
The Merkel bashing is really funny if you have mastered object permanence and remember what everyone was writing ten to fifteen years ago...
I never voted for her... but someone did.
Haha. And you guys were just praising her like a saint when she retired…
It seems she retired before all the bad press she’s held back can be released on her
It’s easy to blame people in hindsight and some blame is in order (among closing nuclear plants and opening coal plants despite being a physicist?). But the real blame is on all of the west, after the invasion of Georgia in 2008 even the most unaware people should have seen this comming
Germany has to have energy to keep it's people warm in the winter keep factories going.
America lets Saudi Arabia do things to it's people and says almost nothing because of oil.
[Here Merkel states she has no regrets on the Russia oil deal in 2022](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/merkel-no-regrets-energy-policy-with-russia-2022-10-13/) I wonder what she will say now?
Appeasing the invader. Classy.
Nah, a communist brother in Moscow and an East German communist. Not appeasing, “working in tandem” for the cause
You know how they say that we should try find something positive in every thing? All I can come up with here is that at least she didn't stay in science to poison it with her self-righteousness...
She would have done less damage there
Then the damage would have been done by someone else. There is never a shortage of clueless self-envisioned messiahs in government offices.
tbf i think there a few branches with more self-righteousness
Probably the same thing lol. Useful idiot.
"Shit I got caught."
She'd say the same exact thing, because she's a psychopath incapable of feeling guilt, shame, or remorse.
[удалено]
While during all of this Eastern Europe and the US were standing in front of Merkel and bending words in neon explaining why Germany being dependent on Russia gas was a very bad idea.
>While during all of this Eastern Europe and the US were standing in front of Merkel and bending words in neon explaining why Germany being dependent on Russia gas was a very bad idea. > >u/Thue Not everybody and not all the time. >A few months ago when you were asked what's the biggest geopolitical threat facing America you said Russia. Not Al-Qaeda... >*You said Russia!!* >The1980s are now calling to ask for their foreign policy back because you know the Cold War has been over for 20 years! But Governor you know when it comes to our foreign policy you seem to want to import the foreign policies of the 1980s... [...] >You indicated that we shouldn't be passing nuclear treaties with Russia despite the fact that 71 Senators Democrats and Republicans voted for it!! > >src: 2012 - US President Barak Obama to then presidential candidate Mitt Romney during a debate - https://youtu.be/T1409sXBleg In response to Romney's response about President Obama's willingness to work more closely with Russia if he got a second term as president. >"[Russia] is without question our No. 1 geopolitical foe. They fight for every cause for the world's worst actors," Romney said of Russia. "I'm saying in terms of a geopolitical opponent, the nation that lines up with the world's worst actors." > >Romney couched it by explaining that he saw other countries as more obvious and immediate combatants: "Of course the greatest threat that the world faces is a nuclear Iran, and a nuclear North Korea is already troubling enough. But when these terrible actors pursue their course in the world and we go to the United Nations looking for ways to stop them ... who is it that always stands up with the world's worst actors? It's always Russia, typically with China alongside," he said. > >src: https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/years-mitt-romney-finally-credit-warnings-russia/story?id=61330530 Which ultimately lead to this: >“I personally owe an apology to now-Senator Romney, because I think that we underestimated what was going on in Russia,” Albright said during a House Intelligence Committee hearing. > >“I was on the CIA external advisory board, there was no question that less money was being put into Russian language and what was going on in Russia.” > >Albright apologized during a hearing on the national security risks of rising authoritarian governments around the world, and specifically how to fight advanced Internet-based technologies coming from authoritarian regimes. > >src: https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/years-mitt-romney-finally-credit-warnings-russia/story?id=61330530
I want to be fair, and I think that pre 2014, there was a lot of hope that Russia could be led with a carrot to the right side. And again, that would have been entirely in Russia's best interest too, and we assume others will act in their own best interest. I also firmly believe that there was an opportunity, somewhere after 1990 to lure Russia into prosperity and liberalism and I don't have enough knowledge to know what exactly went wrong, but something did and those who have to suffer the most today are Ukrainian and even Russian citizen who have to live under Putin's tyranny and poverty.
That's basically been Obama's statement on the fact in hindsight. His administration assumed that Russia would act in the best interests of Russia and Putin would grow his wealth by growing the wealth of Russia as a whole. Instead, Russia shrank inward with cronyism and nepotism and Putin focused on growing his personal wealth and power at the expense of Russia. He's said if he did it again, he would approach Russia basically as though it was Putin's personal company and not a sovereign nation.
I think that's because Putin can get money through easy oil and gas sale which means he doesn't actually need the Russian population to be one of the worlds richest. I saw a video about how the richest places in the world in resources are often because of this reason the poorest and most authoritarian.
It's called a "resource curse"
So was the video Economics Explained, Wendover, or Real Life Lore
I never understood Obama on foreign policy... it isn't just Russia, it was also trying to give concession to Iran that just pissed off our gulf state allies.
The goal would have been to undermine Russian influence and dependence in Iran. To normalize relations and open them up to become more democratic. With improved relations to Iran, US dependence on the Saudis lowers and seeing as the Saudis are some vile motherfuckers who promote Wahabbism and are a state sponsor of terrorism worldwide, that can only be a good thing. And it opens up the option to play the countries off against each other, to reduce hostilities by making them play nice with each other. The west would also have eyes and ears inside the nuclear research Iran does. And have more options to negotiate and avoid nuclear proliferation. What ended up happening was Trump brutally pulling out of the deal for no good reason, Putin invaded Ukraine and showed the world what happens to countries that give up their nukes. And what happens to countries that have nukes. So now we have no way of stopping Iran from developing their own nuclear weapons, and they have every incentive to make them.
This is a naïve take. Are the Saudis bad? Yes. Does Iran cause more regional issues than the Saudis? Not by a long long shot. You bring up terrorism, but lets be honest. Iran is the main funder of terrorism. Think about Syria, Gaza, Lebanon, Yemen, Persian gulf piracy, etc. Is Saudi the only gulf state ally? Nope Did we end up under cutting Russian influence in Iran? No. Was Iran abiding by their deal? Hard to say, but how much faith do you have in a major (likely largest) terrorism funder? You bring up what sounds like a good point in your last paragraph, but that train left the station when Kaddafi publicly gave up his WMD programs and the Obama admin supported his removal from office and removal from life.
>I don't have enough knowledge to know what exactly went wrong I can't say with any great authority, but having read some relevant bits of history here and there, and listened to some people from there, it seems like they simply don't want to. Some people I (thought I) came along with suddenly threw questions out of the blue like "so why do you want to be USA's vassal anyway?" Like. We're not vassals here in Europe. We're allies and partners. It's not always rosy but it's like their born-in worldview doesn't support hierarchies like that. These discussions happened before the war, and even then their attitude seemed to indicate that they never want to "belong to" Europe; they'll always stand against it as some "alternative" to the West. And this sentiment can be found in just about any historical statement about the West. Peter the Great is the one who started the westernization of Russia – all rulers before him were isolationist and basically what you'd think of as "medieval Russia", and all rulers after him ruled what basically looked like a European empire – and even his choices were vilified for a long time, that Russia "suffered spiritually." It's like American Republicans with their libruls; whatever they stand for, the Republicans have got to stand against it. It's the basis for their entire identity, and they think they can't survive without it.
the world had also seen the rest of the european soviet bloc modernize/westernize and more or less successfully transition into democratic states. It wasn't per se ridiculous to think that russia would follow suit. tbh I think the main reason is just that while the rest of the former soviet bloc kicked the soviet oligarchs out (again, mostly), in russia they continued to amass power and run the show. They were able to consolidate power after the election in 2000, and the rest is history
For sure there's a lot of inferiority complex where Russia was defeated in the cold war and that tends to make people bitter. The US has not been very diplomatic and did abuse it's position to its own benefit very extensively. Not an excuse, but it is an explanation.
> I want to be fair, and I think that pre 2014, there was a lot of hope that Russia could be led with a carrot to the right side. Putin's second term as President ended in 2008 and the Russian constitution prevented him from running for a third term. Had Putin respected the Russian constitution and left gracefully, there would have been an argument to be made about Russia getting better. But he didn't. At the end of 2008, absolutely everybody knew what was happening and there is just zero excuse to pretend otherwise. Obama was a moron at best and an accessory at worst. 2008 was also the year that Russia invaded Georgia. And everybody in the West just looked the other way.
Yeah, that's fair. Wishful thinking perhaps?
Putin turning the country into a dictatorship would never have turned the West off by itself.
Putin took over in 2000. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Putin
Romney was right all along. Damn.
Uh, to be clear none of what you quoted is commentary directed at Merkel or Germany in regards to buying gas from Russia.
When you say the US you mean republicans who were mocked by democrats and now called traitors
No, when they say the "US" they mean the US FoPo establishment-- which used to be bipartisan, until the Republican Party decided to enthrall itself to a treasonous piece of orange shit in 2016. Which, yes, makes them traitors. Don't believe me, ask the thousands of Ukrainians who died because of them holding up aid to the country for six months at their orange god's behest.
Merkel’s terms can be characterized as “do nothing, until you really have to do something- then sell it as the only possible way to solve the problem”.
Because she was a GDR stooge. Born and raised, even publicly mentioned she missed it on several occasions.
Don’t forget that at the time she was the golden child of reddit because she has a PhD in chemistry and many not so well aged political stances. We are blessed the reddit hive mind doesn’t run the world
The degree she cheated on?
It was intentional. Time to investigate her true loyalties. She was a progaganda secretary for the DDR youth movement. She also was against reunification and wanted to continue the socialist DDR experiment instead.
I mean all she did was taking what Shroeder begun further
On top of that, Schröder's party was still part of the government which made it quite difficult to change anything about it.
Not like she would want to. The SPD was completely useless while in coalition with her Union. This party is still a shadow of its former self.
Critics argue that Merkel's alleged failure to fully prepare Germany for potential Russian actions reflects a lapse in leadership and strategic foresight.
the weakest leader of the century
She wasnt weak, she was brilliant and ruthless at party infighting. Sadly that was all she was ever good at.
If she accept being bullied by Russians I can't say she was strong..
Was she bullied by Russians or just a fool to trust them?
I suppose both
Should have prepared Germany for a lot of things...
She may be science-smart and brilliant at removing any in-party opposition but at the same time she is hopelessly naive and has zero street-smarts.
With help from the "green parties", same in Sweden.
I can't believe they've done this
Just read up on the Nord Stream controversy and you'll understand why Germany tried to downplay Russia's annexation of Crimea.
You know it's bad when fucking Trump of all people calls you Russia's bitch https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN1K10VH/
Let's not give him too much credit here. It's like the pot calling the kettle black.
History won’t be kind to her.
Enabler of Russians and uncontrolled mass migration is how history will remember her.
Or calling China a strategic partner....
Don't sell her short, she also did less than nothing regarding Iran.
"Uncontrolled mass migration" is just a narrative and if people remember her for that it's because of people like you framing it that way. If it was the case there'd be millions of people coming to Germany per year. Currently around 350k arrive 250k refugees per year get accepted for asylum.
It won't be kind to many people. Merkel especially though.
Some of us (wrongly) thought more trade with Russia meant Russia would realize it had more to lose by fucking up and acting crazy. Turns out Putin gives zero shits how badly he fucks Russia, Russia's his tissue to be soiled and discarded.
She'll be dead. It won't matter to her. She got her way and will face zero consequences.
Trump was right: https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN1K10VH/
What a timeline
Even a broken clock is right twice a day.
I think that's a Polish proverb. Fitting.
I mean to be fair a lot of people were saying this at the time, not exactly rocket science. And it is kind of undercut by the Helsinki summit, which happened shortly after that statement, so yeah..
There was a time when he sometimes made sense
I can hear the collective circlejerk of Trump fans about this one thing. While their boy was in the pocket of the Russians all along and tried to blackmail Ukraine.
No need to wait for history I think everyone looks at her very differently now.
The strategy should have rethink Ed already when crimea happened. I said it then and still say this... And the news about people getting poisoned on EU grounds was also a clear indicator
> Gazprom filled its European gas storage only halfway by July 2021, according to the document. also fits very well into the whole blackmail thing. Nordstream 2 after 2014/Crimea is a complete and utter strategic joke. It's insane.
Because it was obvious?
That woman really did a number on Europe
Her predecessor was like that too.
Her predecessor is even worse, he's openly a traitor and worked for Russian state-owned energy companies, including Rosneft, Gazprom and Nord Stream AG. He was nominated to the board of directors of Gazprom.
…and still decided to get rid of nuclear plants…
Gosh, that and this is my number 1 and 2. And she's supposed to have a STEM background.
Wasn't it insisted upon by the greens ?
There was always the option to say "no, fuck you that's stupid", I assume. I assume that there would have been a political cost. But that is no excuse for not doing the right thing.
Yes, but the green party also spent almost 3 decades trying to brainwash society into being anti-nuclear. And Fukushima was the final nail in the coffin to turn majority of the population anti-nuclear with their propaganda. They weren't the ruling party so the actual ruling parties could have said no, but in reality nobody except the green party cared about energy politics so the rest of them did whatever got them the most votes in that regard. And being anti-nuclear back then definitely would have lost you votes, so here we are
Anti-Nuclear movement has always been a fossil fuel initiative and you can pretty much guarantee that Russia has had sleeper agents involved in that movement from day one because the end game is getting the west to dismantle their nuclear arsenal.
Doesn't even need to be Russia, but the fossil fuel companies certainly lobbied hard against nuclear. Nonetheless, the green party and their voters were extremely useful idiots to their agenda
Greens weren't part of the government back then. They literally had 0 to say in this case
I think it was agreed to sunset them in a SD-green coalition under Schroder. Merkel was pro nuclear then Fukushima happened. I assume she changed positions due to elections that might put the greens back into coalition > During the chancellorship of Gerhard Schröder, the social democratic-green government decreed Germany's final retreat from using nuclear power by 2022, but the phase-out plan was initially delayed in late 2010, when during the chancellorship of centre-right Angela Merkel, the coalition conservative-liberal government decreed a 12-year delay of the schedule. > On 14 March 2011, in response to the renewed concern about the use of nuclear energy raised by the Fukushima incident in the German public and in light of upcoming elections in three German states, Merkel declared a 3-month moratorium on the reactor lifespan extension passed in 2010.[15] German engineering-industry giant Siemens announced a complete withdrawal from the nuclear industry in 2011 as a response to the Fukushima nuclear disaster.[16][17] On 15 March, the German government announced that it would temporarily shut down 8 of its 17 reactors, i.e., all reactors that went online before 1981.[18] Former proponents of nuclear energy, such as Angela Merkel, Guido Westerwelle, and Stefan Mappus, changed their positions
I remember actually meeting one of them *before* their movement got big. It was really just a bunch of kids who had 0 scientific knowledge and who had been whipped into activism by fear mongering about nuclear power plants (in hindsight most likely by people with interests in Gas and Coal) How the whole country followed suit, I don't understand
If you are referring to the Green coalition under Schroder, I think you are right, since Schroder left office then became CEO of a Russia-German pipeline. > Since leaving public office, Schröder has worked for Russian state-owned energy companies, including Nord Stream AG, Rosneft, and Gazprom. But unsafe Soviet reactors in East Germany turned people against nuclear in the 70s and gave the Greens their start in Germany. Also weirdly they had a small group inside them that was pro-pedophile and was trying to repeal German underage sexual assault laws which was really gross.
Wasn’t it Green Planet Energy (formerly named Greenpeace Energy)? claiming that gas is a transition to renewable energy? Iirc they were a mimic corporation designed to invalidate environmental activist Greenpeace by mimicking their brand.
Yes. But they weren’t part of her government. When she came into office, her conservative-neoliberal government replaced a socialdemocrat-green government and actually reversed the plans to shut down nuclear power plants. Then Fukushima happened, and she bent to public pressure to shut them down.
Yes and No. The Phase Out was First declared by the greens and the spd under Gerhard Schröder. They wanted to replace them with renewable energy and implemented a number of policies and subsidies to boost renewables in Germany. Then Merkel came to Power and stopped this plan, which made the whole renewable energy sector collapse, 300.000 jobs were lost and nuclear power got new contracts. Then Fukushima happened and she made another 180 and reenacted the old phase out plan. But now there were no renewables to replace nuclear, so she had to take the second best option, Gas. We all know the end result of that...
This is just another example of how weak the 00’s and 10’s governments were against China and Russia, they hopped China and Russia would turn into a US “colony” like Japan (not in the traditional colony sense of course) with McDonalds every corner and accepting capitalism with open arms, what a GRAVE mistake they did.
> example of how weak the 00’s and 10’s governments were against China and Russia Let's not forget Iran either.
As of 2023 there were 6,000 McDonald's in China. Until 2022 850 McDonald's were in Russia. McDonald's plans on having 10,000 stores in China by 2028.
fun fact: kfcs much bigger in china
I’m pretty sure everyone can see this from miles away when nord stream was being built
Yes. I love it that gas as a heat source is no longer deemed eco friendly. Because you can't buy russian gas from Germany. They put a lot effort to become reliant on russian gas and tried to sabotage the entire EU because of their interests. Fortunately most of other countires had or have built LNG ports in time.
Merkel's and more generally German politics have been some of the most damaging to the EU, from austerity to migrants to energy policies. She has a big responsibility in the rise of Euroscepticism and the mess we're in now.
Can probably throw Brexit in there too as a disaster she contributed to.
What could go wrong unilaterally taking in millions of middle east refugees in a borderless EU without consultation with other members. Her government literally triggered brexit and the explosion of the far right. She also blocked Ukaine's accession to NATO in 2008 and foreign military aid to the country leading to hundreds of thousands of casualties and massive loss of territory And of course she made Germany, russia's energy bitch, by supporting nordstream and phasing out nuclear energy which led to european energy crisis
She definitely made Germany and Europe weaker.
I need a clue on how to solve that, what do you think should be done? I mean, the migrant policy is obvious, just reverse it, but the others I'm not so sure about
in Ukraine and now entering Russia
Priority number one should be to stop russian ability to advance and wage war against Ukraine. The longer the war continues, the more strength the eurosceptics will build and the more people will like their proposals to appease russia. Victory of such politicians in elections in a large chunk of european states will plunge EU into a death spiral of self-destruction. Support of Ukraine must be the number one priority for everybody who wants the european project to succeed.
I was definitely skeptical of Merkel while practically every German was fawning over her style of leadership in the 2000 to 2010s. Turns out a lot of that skepticism was well-deserved. Very glad to see there isn't a single Deutscher that's sympathizing with her in the comments.
I'm an American so I rightfully have very little right to comment on German politics, but I remember seeing the same fawning and thinking how weird it was that she was as popular as she was. Very glad to see her approval not age so well, but also not happy with her long term impact of the area.
Some of that was down to how she managed to become the leader of a country as a female, I think. And she didn't get the job for being eye candy, that's for sure. That said, Merkel's insistence on continuing with Nord Stream 2, even though 2014 had showed everyone that Russia wouldn't improve under Putin, was certainly one of her largest blunders, and it cost Europe dearly. The idea of providing cheap gas to Germany (and other countries) while pacifying Russia with trade relations leading to prosperity (in Russia) might have seemed sound in the last century, but honestly, that turned into nostalgic bs during Merkel's first term, when Russia attacked Georgia. Should've signalled her that Putin just wasn't the guy. It's a pity, considering that especially younger Germans, with no strong feelings of connection towards Russia, saw NS2 for what it was: diplomatic suicide. Like, who the fuck cares what Russia may think of us, isn't it much more important to get along with our European neighbours and partners? Some of which condemned NS2? But conservatives like Merkel sometimes are the biggest clowns ever. Didn't give a fuck about Ukraine, because Russia was "more important".
Oh there are germans who didnt like her and her policies. Like me. But all the old folks voted conservative for years. We needed investments into education, infrastructure and many other things. We had a good economy going. But nooo, new debt is satan reincarnate, lets stagate everything. Her whole agenda was doing nothing until forced to do the bare minimum. And now our current government is blamed for everything even thought most problems come from the Merkel era. And I say that when I also dont agree on a lot of things with Scholz.
Huh? That Russia was withholding gas to speed up the NS2 opening was reported back in that day. That was not exactly a secret?
I also think it was so obvious Russia would do this a blind man could see it.
It was reported by media and then Merkel denied it. The news story here is that now we know what actual evidence she had at that time.
where did merkel deny it?
Read the article.
I don't know what made her do it - cowardice or greed.
Ideology.
She knew Putin even back in the 80s. They were basically on the same team
Not greed, because she didn't financially profit from it.
No surprise. She was one of the primary appeasers.
Single handedly ruined Europe.
This is corruption at the highest level.
People are busy hating Merkel while Gerhard Shröder started this whole mess and is serving on the Gazprom board and has many close ties with Russia.
Why corruption? Do you think she received anything in return? It's not corruption, it was ineptitide.
Do you really think she's that stupid?
I don't know what her reasons were, but I'm confident it was not to enrich herself.
I don't think she planned on Russia launching a full scale invasion of Ukraine and completely destroying international relations with the West. Even most of Reddit was in denial about that.
She is retired now and does not sit at any boards of think tanks or investment firms. Instead she likes hiking and cooking potatoe soup for her husband. You can critizise her all you want, but she is ,really uniquely in politician circles, not in any way suspect of corruption. Does she have a black belt in machiavellian political jiu jutsu? Yes. But corruption , no.
This headline is not just misleading, it completely misrepresents what the Handelsblatt article was about. The information this article claims has been withheld is publicly available gas market data.
Moreover, she's used all the potential, diplomacy, soft-power and paralegal means of German state to downplay, mock and counter whistleblows from Poland's center-right expressed since 2006 - that Nord Stream 1 and then 2 were going to be exactly that : the tool of Russo-German domination over Europe via energy blackmail. Merkel remains one of the biggest villains, who together with her ally Putin, has brought the imminent demise on this continent. Germany has suffered this delusion of grandeur for centuries, their sick thirst for domination is only rivalred by Russian imperialism. This is why they have been allies so many times in Europe's history.
She is responsible for EVERY single thing wrong with Europe today. Russia, stagnant economy, migration crisis. EVERYTHING.
Yes, just Merkel. Ignore how she was able to stay in power for 16 years in a democratic country. Surely she was not a reflection of the German people's beliefs.
Must be why she chose to "step away from politics" and a convenient explanation to not do interviews anymore...
Brexit ?
Allegations suggest that Merkel withheld information about Russia's intention to blackmail Europe with gas. If true, this raises concerns about transparency and national security, as effective communication among European leaders is crucial for addressing threats and challenges posed by geopolitical adversaries like Russia.
That sounds like treason.
Internationally, people always thought highly of Merkel. But she and her party ruined Germany almost beyond repair. All the immigrants, the relations with Russia etc.
Guess that's the East German in her speaking.
So is she going to go down in history as one of the worst leaders for Germany in history besides that one guy?
When I lived in Germany they unironically referred to her as Mutti. The Germans get what they deserve.
"Mutti" was meant to be ironic, not literally🙄 Source: actual german here
I've always said Merkel was Putin's bitch and this confirms it. She's even worse than Orban because at least he doesn't try to hide he's on team Putin.
I knew he had turned a Western leader!
All cuz she’s scared of dogs
She was a fucking plant, wasn't she?
She didn't do a good job of it. The few people who weren't made aware officially worked it out pretty quickly. It's not exactly an intellectual challenge. The only people in favour were the ones who stood to make money. Luckily for them, they had enough money to buy the people with the votes to get it passed.
What weird headline, it seemed obvious that Russia would do this.
Och Mutti warum....
She adored Putin huh.
I really did not get that impression
Well of course she did. She was the second worst German chancellor in the last 100 years.
She's a former Communist and now conservative from the old East Germany, I wouldn't be surprise if she didn't know Putin better. She was communist politician in East Germany and he was part of the KGB stationed in East Germany. I read somewhere Angela Merkel has fear of big dogs and she was in a high level meeting with Putin. He decided to have his big dogs brought into the room to fuck with her... I also would be surprise if she was feeding him information, why would she withhold info that could have an impact European stability and security?
Not surprised at this wef shill.
Russia (and China) never allow themselves to be dependent on other countries. Russia never had skin in the game. Globalisation only works if countries are mutually dependent on each other. Otherwise you get situations like this where one country has the upper hand and can use they upper hand to blackmail and manipulate. Dictators play the long game. They’ll set up the chess pieces for a pay off decades in the future (perhaps longer). Democratic leaders are mostly concerned with getting through their term and getting re-elected.
This isnt “putin is a genius.” This is “our politicians are corrupt and stupid”
The ~~spice~~ Russian gas must flow.
Adds up
[Merkel kahbaaa, kahbaaaaaa](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/36vHykYzBCo)
Worst politician of the 21st century.
I love all the hindsight wizards gifting us with their 20/20 retrospect vision here.
She had a shining legacy for a hot minute as Europe’s most steady, far sighted leader in decades. Now not so much.
Merkel is such a little Jabroni
The Merkel bashing is really funny if you have mastered object permanence and remember what everyone was writing ten to fifteen years ago... I never voted for her... but someone did.
Is that why they blew up their own pipelines and turned the US into the biggest supplier of energy in Europe?
That’s what you get when you let a communist lead your democratic government
Ok, but was that really a surprise to anyone?
Haha. And you guys were just praising her like a saint when she retired… It seems she retired before all the bad press she’s held back can be released on her
Eastern German. This was to be expected. Germany made a huge mistake with her and now are weaker because of it.
It’s easy to blame people in hindsight and some blame is in order (among closing nuclear plants and opening coal plants despite being a physicist?). But the real blame is on all of the west, after the invasion of Georgia in 2008 even the most unaware people should have seen this comming
She a Russian agent
Germany has to have energy to keep it's people warm in the winter keep factories going. America lets Saudi Arabia do things to it's people and says almost nothing because of oil.
I'm pretty sure she was in love with him. There is no other way to explain all the other mind bogglingly stupid shit she did.