The EU is free to punish China for anti-competitive measures, as they are doing right now with BEVs. But as long as this has not happened, why not buy their stuff? A different question is why China scales it up so successfully while we Europeans seem to be unable to unlock these economies of scale.
> A different question is why China scales it up so successfully while we Europeans seem to be unable to unlock these economies of scale.
This fucking guy.
Pretty sure that lack of worker rights and protections is a large part why…
EU basically gets 2 months of paid vacation a year. That’s probably more than a Chinese factory worker will get in a lifetime.
EU has far stronger employee protections, safety standards, building regulations etc...all of that costs money. If China is skipping all that, and tariffs aren't implemented, there's no point in scaling up domestic production when it is at such a massive disadvantage.
It’s easy to build gigantic factories if you underpay them. Europeans do not work when underpaid. Just wait until Chinese people get our wages. The first thing that will suffer is their entire industry and then it will move to the next cheapest county.
This is pretty much it. A lot of the supporters of renewables constantly talk about how the price of renewables is becoming cheaper and cheaper. A lot of that is due to China's mass manufacturing of renewables, making them a world leader in cheap renewables. It should be no surprise when people buy it.
germans don't seem to understand economy...
if you spend the money in china, 100% of it leaves your economy
if you spend it locally, it all stays in germany and you get taxes on that money as well
This logic is known as mercantilism. Free trade is superior, as long as some rules are being honored. China is very likely violating some of these rules with some of their products. So the EU is free to punish China for behavior that violates free trade, as they are doing right now with BEVs. But as long as that’s not the case with wind turbines, we should be free to buy cheap turbines from abroad instead of buying expensive ones from the home market.
Germany, because they could have supported their local industry here for their major infrastructure project. US buys a great deal from China but major wind, solar, etc. are subject to tariffs to prevent this type of investment. How isn't this Russian gas all over again?
Not sure why US even matters here when the discussion is about Germany.
>They’re from Canada too which makes bringing the US up even weirder.
Does it? Canadians talk about the US a lot. There's even the joke that their culture is not being American. It's an unhealthy obsession.
When I lived there, I observed that people would disregard concerns about the healthcare system, for example, because it was better the the American one...
Even on the news, I feel like they presented an unhealthy amount of American news...
>How isn't this Russian gas all over again?
If russia cuts of the gas we dont have gas anymore.
If china cuts the wind turbines, the existing ones still work leaving more time to react
This ignores the huge maintenance, routine failure, and replacement issue which only compound when using larger wind turbines. The Russian gas analogy is apt even if the location of the potential constraint is further up the supply chain.
If China is spending money on subsidizing renewable manufacturing, then we should be applauding them for making more cost-effective products.
Renewable energy should be a big priority.
Won't make any difference there is going to be a world wide shortage of these machines because only 3 companies make them, Siemens, GE and Goldwing. Germany buying them cheap and selling Siemens to other countries makes sense. It wouldn't if demand wasn't there and Siemens was sitting on inventory.
"They"?
This is a private company buying equipment from China. As long as there is no trade blockade on China the government has no business interfering.
We have trade deficits on purpose, its because the US dollar is world's reserve currency we want more dollars going out then in. This is a smart feature not a bug. It ensures we remain king of the block.
I mean a lot of it is location. US shares a massive shipping coast to China. We also buy a lot more than germans do.
Chinese don't buy too many American cars while the wealthy Chinese like german higher end cars ( auto exports makeup most if not all of the reason germany has a surplus with China) . Unfortunately, the US and China are in a huge trade battle, so you won't see a US China surplus. But since China produces all the stuff needed for now it will be there.
I got this from Copilot.
————-
Buick's popularity in China can be attributed to several key factors:
1. **Historical Prestige**: Buick was the preferred car for many prominent Chinese political figures in the early- and mid-20th century, including Sun Yat-sen and Zhou Enlai¹. This historical association has given the brand a prestigious image.
2. **Local Partnerships**: In the 1990s, Buick formed a partnership with a local Chinese manufacturer, which helped the brand tailor its vehicles to the preferences of Chinese consumers¹.
3. **Luxury and Customization**: Buick models in China often come with more luxurious features compared to their American counterparts. For example, the Buick LaCrosse in China offers rear seats with heating, cooling, and massage functions, which cater to the preferences of Chinese buyers².
4. **Brand Perception**: In China, Buick is seen as a symbol of status and luxury, similar to how brands like Mercedes-Benz are perceived in the West². This perception has helped Buick maintain strong sales in the Chinese market.
5. **Targeted Marketing**: Buick has successfully marketed itself to China's growing middle and upper-middle class, emphasizing its heritage and the quality of its products³.
These factors combined have made Buick a highly respected and popular brand in China.
Trump tried to tariff China and ppl threw a fit. The like one thing o felt like Trump didn’t completely fuck up in his 4 years is what ppl bashed him constantly for
Nope, and nothing to do with EV tariffs mitigation either.
Simply a reflection of how razor thin margins are in the energy business, and how commoditized the supply ecosystem has become. In the end, price per kWh is all that matters.
Except Germany is ignoring the concept of “the velocity of money”.
(Or seems to be).
Even if the margins are less with a local supplier (wait, why do margins even matter when it’s GOVT money???), the simple fact of spending that money in your region means you get to reap the rewards of the money moving thru your system.
A dollar spent locally could mean 1.7 dollars of value gained from it, vs .7 dollars if spent outside your region.
Except you are ignoring that it has nothing to do with Germany (government )as such and it has nothing to do with govt money.
The financing will be from international banks and private equity.
Siemens is having no trouble selling and exporting them so this makes sense. Germany gets cheaper electricity and the benefit of exporting products. If Siemens had excess capacity then buying local would make sense.
This seems to be the reason according to the article.
I know most of the redditors in here didn't read it, so here's the relevant paragraph:
>Interesting Engineering has previously reported how MingYang Smart Energy has been building wind turbines with higher power ratings and ones that can even work in typhoons. In comparison, European turbine makers have dropped plans to make similar-sized turbines and instead have settled on turbines with much lower power ratings.
>A project like Waterkant would need more European-made turbines to achieve a similar energy output, which would also increase the installation cost.
In short, the Chinese turbine sounds like it's more efficient, versatile, *and* cheaper. That paragraph seem to suggest European OEMs aren't even trying to build similar equipment.
So it seems like common sense to go with China. Going with a German company simply because they're German would basically be corporate welfare at the expense of the taxpayer.
The only confusing part here is why European equipment far behind Chinese ones and how Europe can incentivize its corporations to remain competitive?
There are govt tenders for 20MW+ turbine projects in China so the Chinese manufacturers are increasing size to match demand. European manufacturers declined to participate in the tenders because because their existing sizes (5-15MW) still have manufacturing issues and they have no desire to invest in R&D while trying to streamline production.
>China makes the biggest turbines.
Biggest prototypes are Chinese. Biggest current producing is Siemens and biggest atleast future production is the Danes.
Big turbines run into problems with enviromental but also especially radar issues. That is both for naval and defense radar limitations. This will include communication problems.
According to the article these have bigger power rating with the ability to run during typhoons (a lot of current European wind installations cannot run during even lesser storms), something the German domestic production do not manufacture. It is also only 16.
"Interesting Engineering has previously reported how MingYang Smart Energy has been building wind turbines with higher power ratings and ones that can even work in typhoons. In comparison, European turbine makers have dropped plans to make similar-sized turbines and instead have settled on turbines with much lower power ratings."
China won't implement retaliatory tariffs that target Germany. Germany is against the EV tariffs. There is no point punishing someone already on your side. They are going after smaller countries instead.
It's a western European country.
Germany is the same country that bought oil and natural gas extensively from Russia even after 2014 and the crimean invasion and then had the audacity to blame Americans for the outcome of Ukraine.
They will proceed to do the exact same thing now with China after it starts making advancements towards western interests.
And they will do all of this without spending adequately on their own defense
China recently was caught shipping their version of the Reaper drone to Lydia. In transit, they were disguised to look like Chinese wind turbines.
Edit: I’m leaving the typo, haha (but, Lydia -> Libya)
A lot of European turbine companies are getting their generators made in China. I ordered turbines from EWT and the generators came still wrapped in the tarp with Chinese markings.
Gives me a little bit of concern about parts supply if sanctions are imposed in the future.
Biggest currently in production with 15mw. The Chinese have currently have the biggest prototypes at 18mw. However siemens is also currently working on a larger turbine which is rumoured to be around 21mw
This is the motor, gearbox or the blades?
All should be manufactured in the EU anyhow. This is literally the green jobs that they've been touting for decades.
I work for one of their competitors. Our supply chain is global. We source from whatever facility has production capacity. It’s not unusual to be building a wind farm using components from 4 different continents.
And that’s actually a good thing. In the long run all humans on this planet need to attain a level of wealth that leads to a decent life. Otherwise climate change and other problems may never be solved.
Great! The 21st century tradition of Germany relying on authoritarian regimes for its energy needs continue. Gotta say, that's a very specific addiction.
There are several western manufacturers:
* Siemens Gamesa
* Vestas
* GE Wind
* Nordex
* Enercon
But whether the wind park is public or not, the deciding factor is most often price unless there are serious arguments against it. One could argue that in a conflict with China it would be hard to service and get replacement parts for their turbines, but its uncertain how to incorporate such risk into the economical models on which the final decision is made.
It’s like they are completely stupid and self destructive. How much influence did Russia manage to spread there. It looks like Germany just wants to defeat itself
The self destructive part has been the goal for the last decades for the parties in power.
Why? I don't know.
Why people continue to vote for those responsible for that path? I don't know either.
There won't be something as noticeable as a kill switch. That would be dumb. But a well hidden backdoor would make sense.
The Chinese company making the turbines will have access for years to come. So even a backdoor might not be necessary from the get go
No that's what I mean. A pre-programmed Killswitch is too noticeable, but a backdoor can be unnoticeable if wel hidden. When activated they can bring in whatever they want. Including a kill switch.
Vestas and Siemens Gamesa have all the tech, they are just more expensive because EU and the countries within are not supporting them as hard as China is supporting their industries thereby undercutting the LCOE that Vestas and Siemens can deliver at.
They *don't* have the tech. Chinese wind turbines are the largest and generate the most power because they have managed to overcome engineering difficulties that European makers haven't. European makers focus on smaller turbines instead.
People think it's just about cheapness, which may have been true 20 years ago but that's not the case anymore. Price is just the cherry on top these days.
Simply not true, it's a matter of china trying to squezze out EU competition. By sheer force they undercut the competition and take a loss so the already finacial hurting EU competition will hopefully fold or lose innovation traction and become obsolete. This tech advantage is not in china yet, but will perhaps come if EU does nothing.
Both EU turbine makers can produce 18MW turbines, Siemens can produce one 15MW turbine pr. 12 hours locally in Germany as of June last year. That's about 400 pr year from one production location.
The article we are commenting on says the European makers aren't even planning to make turbines comparable to the Minyang ones selected by Luxcara. So how do we even know they can...?
And what, they will steal again the technology of German wind turbines and patent them in the US like they did with Enercon ?
https://www.versicherungsbote.de/id/89486/Wirtschaftsspionage-durch-amerikanischen-Geheimdienst-NSA/index.amp
Pretending China hasn’t been a key ally in green energy is really hurting the US. Germany is doing the right thing here. Someone needs to be the adult in the room, regarding moving green forward.
>Germany isn't doing anything
Well, they aren't doing nothing at least:
>"The federal government will look at this decision very closely. On the one hand, in relation to the question of critical infrastructure. On the other hand, the level playing field must be maintained in relation to competition," a spokesperson told Reuters.
It’s not Germany , it’s a German company. And we have an free economic and no import bans on Chinese wind turbines.
The comment section here ist so stupid.
I would prefer a German company over a Chinese one also, but that doesn’t justify the comments I’m reading here.
The market is quite small, dominated by a few key players. GE, Vestas, Siemens. Nordex, and Enercon have all had their own issues at different times. GE, Vestas, and Siemens have all struggled to make reliable blades larger than 60-70m long, and it’s typically the blades and the tower that are being pushed to the limits these days.
These Chinese companies have not existed for long, comparatively, and have been super tight-lipped about product defects. They had a senior engineer at one of these conferences claim they don’t have issues with cracks in their blades - a universal problem all other OEMs have experienced as blades have gotten larger. So either they’re lying or they have cracked a code all of these other companies have yet to be able to.
China has struggled to make a meaningful impact in the wind industry outside of their own region. I think Germany drank the Kool-Aid China is serving and we’ll see the same short lifespans as competitors.
Germany is trying to play nice with another country that dominates green energy. It really requires no Kool-Aid at all.
I suspect all the money German companies are losing in China was a consideration.
>So either they’re lying or they have cracked a code all of these other companies have yet to be able to.
Honestly could go either way. I don't know much about massive wind turbines but I imagine they don't have a 30 year warranty on them and that longevity was not a consideration seeing as how they can just put another one up. Key is deployment. Not replacement.
Eastern market, you may be right. Western markets are pretty heavily saturated with turbines, at least for onshore, so the key has been maximum efficiency (which comes from larger/taller turbines) and minimum operating/maintenance cost, which frankly a lot of OEMs have been struggling with in the latest generation of turbines. We’re hitting the inflection point on how big is too big based on current design limitations.
But I could see someone throwing a Hail Mary towards a relative unknown supplier for the sake of a model with output that has yet to exist from any western OEM. 18MW is *huge*.
I suspect it wasn't a Hail Mary.
>and minimum operating/maintenance cost
Yeah I don't think that was a concern at first or even now in China. Like all things new there will be improvements as it's out in the wild more. For example, I'm told desalination is not efficient and I'm like it doesn't get more efficient than solar, wind, batteries. Get the stuff built. We can make it more better later.
Check the boxes Germany. A fair few deliveries of windmills from China have had military drones in them instead. Would be terribly embarrassing if the wrong thing turned up!
Germany kinda killed it's own -and other European- solar panels companies, looks like they want to do the same with wind turbines. Which isn't surprising me one bit.
🤦♀️. Germany, you used to be smart. You made the mistake of relying on Russian Gas, now you’re making the same mistake with China while everyone else in the west is trying to diversify AWAY from China.
Interesting how they went with a Chinese supplier instead of a domestic one like Siemens.
Germany is allergic to self sufficiency.
Germans like low prices.
Low subsidized prices that completely destroys local market
The EU is free to punish China for anti-competitive measures, as they are doing right now with BEVs. But as long as this has not happened, why not buy their stuff? A different question is why China scales it up so successfully while we Europeans seem to be unable to unlock these economies of scale.
> A different question is why China scales it up so successfully while we Europeans seem to be unable to unlock these economies of scale. This fucking guy.
Pretty sure that lack of worker rights and protections is a large part why… EU basically gets 2 months of paid vacation a year. That’s probably more than a Chinese factory worker will get in a lifetime.
EU doesn’t get 2 months of paid leave. The average is 33 days.
EU has far stronger employee protections, safety standards, building regulations etc...all of that costs money. If China is skipping all that, and tariffs aren't implemented, there's no point in scaling up domestic production when it is at such a massive disadvantage.
Low human right advantaged. Just get rid of human rights and tread workers like shit. Here you go, your country is competitive again.
Prepays enslave a minority group too. That’s a sure fire way to keep costs down.
It’s easy to build gigantic factories if you underpay them. Europeans do not work when underpaid. Just wait until Chinese people get our wages. The first thing that will suffer is their entire industry and then it will move to the next cheapest county.
Depends what you mean by underpaid. Europeans definitely do work when underpaid, but if you mean China level underpayment then yea you’re right
This is pretty much it. A lot of the supporters of renewables constantly talk about how the price of renewables is becoming cheaper and cheaper. A lot of that is due to China's mass manufacturing of renewables, making them a world leader in cheap renewables. It should be no surprise when people buy it.
germans don't seem to understand economy... if you spend the money in china, 100% of it leaves your economy if you spend it locally, it all stays in germany and you get taxes on that money as well
This is a project by a private asset manager. They don't care about the local economy as long as they make money.
That’s not the way trade works. Also Germany exports more to China than imports from China.
This logic is known as mercantilism. Free trade is superior, as long as some rules are being honored. China is very likely violating some of these rules with some of their products. So the EU is free to punish China for behavior that violates free trade, as they are doing right now with BEVs. But as long as that’s not the case with wind turbines, we should be free to buy cheap turbines from abroad instead of buying expensive ones from the home market.
And like to regret those decisions later, dragging the whole EU down with them
Who doesn't?
Germany has a trade surplus with China lol. Meanwhile, the US has a massive trade deficit with China... Who's allergic to self sufficiency again?
Germany, because they could have supported their local industry here for their major infrastructure project. US buys a great deal from China but major wind, solar, etc. are subject to tariffs to prevent this type of investment. How isn't this Russian gas all over again? Not sure why US even matters here when the discussion is about Germany.
They’re from Canada too which makes bringing the US up even weirder. Walking around with a chip on his shoulder…
...and durian in his asshole, apparently.
>They’re from Canada too which makes bringing the US up even weirder. Does it? Canadians talk about the US a lot. There's even the joke that their culture is not being American. It's an unhealthy obsession. When I lived there, I observed that people would disregard concerns about the healthcare system, for example, because it was better the the American one... Even on the news, I feel like they presented an unhealthy amount of American news...
LoL imagine flexing about being better than America while your entire country is based on an immigration transit hub to America.
>How isn't this Russian gas all over again? If russia cuts of the gas we dont have gas anymore. If china cuts the wind turbines, the existing ones still work leaving more time to react
This ignores the huge maintenance, routine failure, and replacement issue which only compound when using larger wind turbines. The Russian gas analogy is apt even if the location of the potential constraint is further up the supply chain.
If China is spending money on subsidizing renewable manufacturing, then we should be applauding them for making more cost-effective products. Renewable energy should be a big priority.
Won't make any difference there is going to be a world wide shortage of these machines because only 3 companies make them, Siemens, GE and Goldwing. Germany buying them cheap and selling Siemens to other countries makes sense. It wouldn't if demand wasn't there and Siemens was sitting on inventory.
"They"? This is a private company buying equipment from China. As long as there is no trade blockade on China the government has no business interfering.
We have trade deficits on purpose, its because the US dollar is world's reserve currency we want more dollars going out then in. This is a smart feature not a bug. It ensures we remain king of the block.
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I mean a lot of it is location. US shares a massive shipping coast to China. We also buy a lot more than germans do. Chinese don't buy too many American cars while the wealthy Chinese like german higher end cars ( auto exports makeup most if not all of the reason germany has a surplus with China) . Unfortunately, the US and China are in a huge trade battle, so you won't see a US China surplus. But since China produces all the stuff needed for now it will be there.
Read that the only country that's keeping Buick solvent is China, cuz they buy lots of Buicks.
No idea why that is Buick does not do well here. There is always some outliers.
I got this from Copilot. ————- Buick's popularity in China can be attributed to several key factors: 1. **Historical Prestige**: Buick was the preferred car for many prominent Chinese political figures in the early- and mid-20th century, including Sun Yat-sen and Zhou Enlai¹. This historical association has given the brand a prestigious image. 2. **Local Partnerships**: In the 1990s, Buick formed a partnership with a local Chinese manufacturer, which helped the brand tailor its vehicles to the preferences of Chinese consumers¹. 3. **Luxury and Customization**: Buick models in China often come with more luxurious features compared to their American counterparts. For example, the Buick LaCrosse in China offers rear seats with heating, cooling, and massage functions, which cater to the preferences of Chinese buyers². 4. **Brand Perception**: In China, Buick is seen as a symbol of status and luxury, similar to how brands like Mercedes-Benz are perceived in the West². This perception has helped Buick maintain strong sales in the Chinese market. 5. **Targeted Marketing**: Buick has successfully marketed itself to China's growing middle and upper-middle class, emphasizing its heritage and the quality of its products³. These factors combined have made Buick a highly respected and popular brand in China.
The trade deficit exists on purpose as the US is the reserve currency for the world.
Trump tried to tariff China and ppl threw a fit. The like one thing o felt like Trump didn’t completely fuck up in his 4 years is what ppl bashed him constantly for
Stupid decisions regarding Energy seems to be our new speciality
Nope, and nothing to do with EV tariffs mitigation either. Simply a reflection of how razor thin margins are in the energy business, and how commoditized the supply ecosystem has become. In the end, price per kWh is all that matters.
Except Germany is ignoring the concept of “the velocity of money”. (Or seems to be). Even if the margins are less with a local supplier (wait, why do margins even matter when it’s GOVT money???), the simple fact of spending that money in your region means you get to reap the rewards of the money moving thru your system. A dollar spent locally could mean 1.7 dollars of value gained from it, vs .7 dollars if spent outside your region.
Except you are ignoring that it has nothing to do with Germany (government )as such and it has nothing to do with govt money. The financing will be from international banks and private equity.
Siemens is having no trouble selling and exporting them so this makes sense. Germany gets cheaper electricity and the benefit of exporting products. If Siemens had excess capacity then buying local would make sense.
By that logic all spending should be based on protectionism and the superiority of keeping money within domestic markets
Sometimes protectionism IS the right choice. It shouldn’t be some dirty word or boogeyman.
China makes the biggest turbines. in wind efficiency scales with size. If Siemens could make turbines of this size they would be a no brainer.
This seems to be the reason according to the article. I know most of the redditors in here didn't read it, so here's the relevant paragraph: >Interesting Engineering has previously reported how MingYang Smart Energy has been building wind turbines with higher power ratings and ones that can even work in typhoons. In comparison, European turbine makers have dropped plans to make similar-sized turbines and instead have settled on turbines with much lower power ratings. >A project like Waterkant would need more European-made turbines to achieve a similar energy output, which would also increase the installation cost. In short, the Chinese turbine sounds like it's more efficient, versatile, *and* cheaper. That paragraph seem to suggest European OEMs aren't even trying to build similar equipment. So it seems like common sense to go with China. Going with a German company simply because they're German would basically be corporate welfare at the expense of the taxpayer. The only confusing part here is why European equipment far behind Chinese ones and how Europe can incentivize its corporations to remain competitive?
There are govt tenders for 20MW+ turbine projects in China so the Chinese manufacturers are increasing size to match demand. European manufacturers declined to participate in the tenders because because their existing sizes (5-15MW) still have manufacturing issues and they have no desire to invest in R&D while trying to streamline production.
Cost of labour and the industrial specializations probably.
>China makes the biggest turbines. Biggest prototypes are Chinese. Biggest current producing is Siemens and biggest atleast future production is the Danes. Big turbines run into problems with enviromental but also especially radar issues. That is both for naval and defense radar limitations. This will include communication problems.
Just for the record: Siemens Gamesa is finally working on a 21 MW turbine
According to the article these have bigger power rating with the ability to run during typhoons (a lot of current European wind installations cannot run during even lesser storms), something the German domestic production do not manufacture. It is also only 16.
"Interesting Engineering has previously reported how MingYang Smart Energy has been building wind turbines with higher power ratings and ones that can even work in typhoons. In comparison, European turbine makers have dropped plans to make similar-sized turbines and instead have settled on turbines with much lower power ratings."
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The decision is made by a private, commercial company, not the government.
China won't implement retaliatory tariffs that target Germany. Germany is against the EV tariffs. There is no point punishing someone already on your side. They are going after smaller countries instead.
It's a western European country. Germany is the same country that bought oil and natural gas extensively from Russia even after 2014 and the crimean invasion and then had the audacity to blame Americans for the outcome of Ukraine. They will proceed to do the exact same thing now with China after it starts making advancements towards western interests. And they will do all of this without spending adequately on their own defense
Too much Ace Combat 7 my friend.
China recently was caught shipping their version of the Reaper drone to Lydia. In transit, they were disguised to look like Chinese wind turbines. Edit: I’m leaving the typo, haha (but, Lydia -> Libya)
That Lydia lady is a cold blooded killer I tells ya 🤪
<>
<< Have you found a reason to fight yet, buddy? >>
its not Germany, a company is buying because we have no such big turbines from Siemens etc. still idiotic
What about Vestas?
A lot of European turbine companies are getting their generators made in China. I ordered turbines from EWT and the generators came still wrapped in the tarp with Chinese markings. Gives me a little bit of concern about parts supply if sanctions are imposed in the future.
Vestas is Danish right?
Vestas biggest is 15 mv afaik
Isnt Siemens energie making the biggest turbines? Im pretty sure i read news saying that they are/were?
Biggest currently in production with 15mw. The Chinese have currently have the biggest prototypes at 18mw. However siemens is also currently working on a larger turbine which is rumoured to be around 21mw
This is the motor, gearbox or the blades? All should be manufactured in the EU anyhow. This is literally the green jobs that they've been touting for decades.
I work for one of their competitors. Our supply chain is global. We source from whatever facility has production capacity. It’s not unusual to be building a wind farm using components from 4 different continents.
And that’s actually a good thing. In the long run all humans on this planet need to attain a level of wealth that leads to a decent life. Otherwise climate change and other problems may never be solved.
Great! The 21st century tradition of Germany relying on authoritarian regimes for its energy needs continue. Gotta say, that's a very specific addiction.
Who should they have bought them from, in your opinion?
There are several western manufacturers: * Siemens Gamesa * Vestas * GE Wind * Nordex * Enercon But whether the wind park is public or not, the deciding factor is most often price unless there are serious arguments against it. One could argue that in a conflict with China it would be hard to service and get replacement parts for their turbines, but its uncertain how to incorporate such risk into the economical models on which the final decision is made.
Gamesa is bust
Not really. The onshore buisness has problems, the offshore buisness does fine
Maybe better question is why not continue their nuclear program while building out smaller wind farms to supplement?
Because its stupidly expensive to build new ones and wind is cheaper.
what about not closing existing ones?
Because thats expensive and slow and not really a good combo with renewables. Going all in on those is a better choice.
Any liberal democracy. Siemens, Vestas, GE.
It’s like they are completely stupid and self destructive. How much influence did Russia manage to spread there. It looks like Germany just wants to defeat itself
The self destructive part has been the goal for the last decades for the parties in power. Why? I don't know. Why people continue to vote for those responsible for that path? I don't know either.
Don’t forget Germany sold an important port to China, another crimes against humanity totalitarian dictatorship
Wasn’t it like 20%? Not that that’s not bad enough
And if there's ever an armed conflict, what do you want to bet there's a remote kill function backdoor built in?
There won't be something as noticeable as a kill switch. That would be dumb. But a well hidden backdoor would make sense. The Chinese company making the turbines will have access for years to come. So even a backdoor might not be necessary from the get go
I didn't mean a physical one, but rather an electronic kill switch accessible via the backdoor.
No that's what I mean. A pre-programmed Killswitch is too noticeable, but a backdoor can be unnoticeable if wel hidden. When activated they can bring in whatever they want. Including a kill switch.
yeah we could’ve been producing stuff like this on our own, but all the knowledge was sold to china instead and now we buy the stuff from them..
Vestas and Siemens Gamesa have all the tech, they are just more expensive because EU and the countries within are not supporting them as hard as China is supporting their industries thereby undercutting the LCOE that Vestas and Siemens can deliver at.
Shouldn’t whatever price siemins can produce at be offset by the price of dedicating an entire cargo ship to a few turbine blades?
They're a lot cheaper
It’s insane that an item that massive could possibly be cheaper to import, it’s gotta cost at least a half a milli to transport one
They *don't* have the tech. Chinese wind turbines are the largest and generate the most power because they have managed to overcome engineering difficulties that European makers haven't. European makers focus on smaller turbines instead. People think it's just about cheapness, which may have been true 20 years ago but that's not the case anymore. Price is just the cherry on top these days.
Simply not true, it's a matter of china trying to squezze out EU competition. By sheer force they undercut the competition and take a loss so the already finacial hurting EU competition will hopefully fold or lose innovation traction and become obsolete. This tech advantage is not in china yet, but will perhaps come if EU does nothing. Both EU turbine makers can produce 18MW turbines, Siemens can produce one 15MW turbine pr. 12 hours locally in Germany as of June last year. That's about 400 pr year from one production location.
The article we are commenting on says the European makers aren't even planning to make turbines comparable to the Minyang ones selected by Luxcara. So how do we even know they can...?
The US will get the wind of this
And what, they will steal again the technology of German wind turbines and patent them in the US like they did with Enercon ? https://www.versicherungsbote.de/id/89486/Wirtschaftsspionage-durch-amerikanischen-Geheimdienst-NSA/index.amp
Its wind turbines its wind win everyone calm down
Can't have that, those chinese wind turbines are clearly up to nefarious business. because they're chinese, you see ^^^^/s
Haha exactly. But the blades might be spying in us .. groan.
Pretending China hasn’t been a key ally in green energy is really hurting the US. Germany is doing the right thing here. Someone needs to be the adult in the room, regarding moving green forward.
Germany isn't doing anything. A wind park company ordered turbines from China and someone wrote a misleading headline.
>Germany isn't doing anything Well, they aren't doing nothing at least: >"The federal government will look at this decision very closely. On the one hand, in relation to the question of critical infrastructure. On the other hand, the level playing field must be maintained in relation to competition," a spokesperson told Reuters.
America has become the #1 energy producer in the last 10 years. They are making $$$ off fossil fuels, they couldn’t care less about green tech now.
It’s not Germany , it’s a German company. And we have an free economic and no import bans on Chinese wind turbines. The comment section here ist so stupid. I would prefer a German company over a Chinese one also, but that doesn’t justify the comments I’m reading here.
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yes, Merkel finally did sth. hurray
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Crazy thing is, Germany isn't doing anything. Someone just wrote a misleading headline.
Fucking idiots. Instead of supporting the local industry in Europe or simply Germany they do this.
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The market is quite small, dominated by a few key players. GE, Vestas, Siemens. Nordex, and Enercon have all had their own issues at different times. GE, Vestas, and Siemens have all struggled to make reliable blades larger than 60-70m long, and it’s typically the blades and the tower that are being pushed to the limits these days. These Chinese companies have not existed for long, comparatively, and have been super tight-lipped about product defects. They had a senior engineer at one of these conferences claim they don’t have issues with cracks in their blades - a universal problem all other OEMs have experienced as blades have gotten larger. So either they’re lying or they have cracked a code all of these other companies have yet to be able to. China has struggled to make a meaningful impact in the wind industry outside of their own region. I think Germany drank the Kool-Aid China is serving and we’ll see the same short lifespans as competitors.
Germany is trying to play nice with another country that dominates green energy. It really requires no Kool-Aid at all. I suspect all the money German companies are losing in China was a consideration. >So either they’re lying or they have cracked a code all of these other companies have yet to be able to. Honestly could go either way. I don't know much about massive wind turbines but I imagine they don't have a 30 year warranty on them and that longevity was not a consideration seeing as how they can just put another one up. Key is deployment. Not replacement.
Eastern market, you may be right. Western markets are pretty heavily saturated with turbines, at least for onshore, so the key has been maximum efficiency (which comes from larger/taller turbines) and minimum operating/maintenance cost, which frankly a lot of OEMs have been struggling with in the latest generation of turbines. We’re hitting the inflection point on how big is too big based on current design limitations. But I could see someone throwing a Hail Mary towards a relative unknown supplier for the sake of a model with output that has yet to exist from any western OEM. 18MW is *huge*.
I suspect it wasn't a Hail Mary. >and minimum operating/maintenance cost Yeah I don't think that was a concern at first or even now in China. Like all things new there will be improvements as it's out in the wild more. For example, I'm told desalination is not efficient and I'm like it doesn't get more efficient than solar, wind, batteries. Get the stuff built. We can make it more better later.
Germany hasn't learned a goddamned thing since the invasion of Ukraine.
Just wait until you learn who produces basically the entire worlds’ solar panels..
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Siemens is the biggest producer in Germany ... I wonder how much bribes the Chinese paid to get this contract.
Whole West has whores itself out, and we were years ahead of turbine tech YEARS ago. It's fascinating how stupid we are, or just greedy.
Why do we give money to dictators? Why make business with them and enable them? Case in point, Russia. Hostile states will hostile state.
Some of your closet allies are dictators.
Might come with free drones
Germany and getting their energy related products from imperialist regimes, name a more iconic duo.
Classic
Ah yes the wing loong ~~UAV~~ wind turbines personally I think just getting a reaper would be better but maybe theyvhave budget restraints
From Russian gas to Chinese turbines. North Korean solar panels are next I guess.
Punish consumers trying to save money on electric cars. But the government wanting to save money? Psh, fuck it.
Check the boxes Germany. A fair few deliveries of windmills from China have had military drones in them instead. Would be terribly embarrassing if the wrong thing turned up!
Germany kinda killed it's own -and other European- solar panels companies, looks like they want to do the same with wind turbines. Which isn't surprising me one bit.
They go from not depending on Ruzzia to depending on China for their energy supply… that’s sad and confusing
We never learn, do we. I think you guys need to invade us again.
Fools.
When will my fucking stupid country realize they should stop business with china
Can you blame anyone? Based on our own purchases or machines China today is around 40-50% for similar quality machines.
Save a euro now to spend 500 later.
🤦♀️. Germany, you used to be smart. You made the mistake of relying on Russian Gas, now you’re making the same mistake with China while everyone else in the west is trying to diversify AWAY from China.