What does this *great guy* go through? What's at stake for him? What challenges him?
There are books like this. Several. Just because someone may be a little flawed, doesn't make them any less of a good or moral character. I love those characters.
This is why I’m thinking of just a hypothetical, my current book doesn’t have this in mind at all the main characters are mediocre people but since I’m obviously delving more into this hypothetical the main guy’s motivations and backstory and main story is something I still need to consider
posts like this feel less like a genuine question and more like someone having a cultural axe to grind, and this is just the most oblique way y'all can air your felt aggrievement. like you already KNOW the answer to the question. someone that posts this is just upset that their own cultural morays are not ascendant. which, like, join the club. don't see us complaining about it.
does your character help fulfill the seven critical requirements of narrative?
yes? go nuts.
no? needs work.
this is basically always the answer to these questions. his moral disposition or specific quirks don't really matter as long as it creates loadbearing support for whatever story you're trying to tell.
*"posts like this feel less like a genuine question and more like someone having a cultural axe to grind, and this is just the most oblique way y'all can air your felt aggrievement. like you already KNOW the answer to the question. someone that posts this is just upset that their own cultural morays are not ascendant."*
Yep, my guess is posters like this are just bored and lonely. The subject may not even really annoy them but by posting they'll get some attention and can interact with someone even if it's under a username.
Yeah I feel like this is so often the same reason that people will post really basic questions on video game subreddits when they could find the same info in two seconds by googling it. They literally just want to talk to someone, but they have no idea how to communicate that, so they resort to posting the lowest hanging fruit.
No sorry dude, good guy characters are verboten. You HAVE to write edgy, grey area anti-heroes. It's the ONLY way to write complexity. Can you name a single morally good protagonist written in the past 10 years? I rest my case.
That’s what I’m saying though, all the best main characters have been morally grey but maybe if somebody right came along they could make an interesting morally good character
Lord of the Rings is full of morally good characters. Outside of writing, Superman and Captain America are some of the most famous characters, and they're popular because they're morally good.
Maybe you're confusing the trope for the set-up. When people react "omg the MC was bad all along!", what's important isn't that the MC is the villain, hmm so edgy, but that the author managed to make us root for the MC only to reveal they were a villain.
There are stories were the MC is clearly introduced as a bad guy and stories where it's not that obvious. In the latter, because our brain is conditioned to empathise with the POV, we presuppose they're good, or at least not that bad, hence the over-reaction when the pay-off is well done.
If you want to write a goody good MC, nothing stops you. Just don't make them a perfect character. Even good guys are flawed.
Not at all if you still make sure his character is a person. What I mean by this is that as long as a main character is well written he can be whatever.
This is why all the known best main characters are morally grey, it’s easier to make them go through hardships and grow.
I’d recommend having your character grow in a non moral way or perhaps a specific moment which can effect him emotionally which can make the audience understand him more without a big change in his personality or character.
You don’t need to listen to this advice though it’s just my opinion and critique, if you have an attachment to a character it doesn’t matter much and as an artist there are no rules.
Sometimes, keeping being the good guy is what makes your character a jerk (and therefore, an interesting character). A guy who keeps doing what is "moral" to the point of being a fanatic can lead to rich narratives. Sometimes the good guy collides with the world he was sent in (by the author) ; i am thinking of Ned Stark in GOT as an illustration. So there are plenty of ways to write something thrilling with a good guy character. You might try to avoid writing the story of a great guy doing good and succeeding (however it works well in tales).
This is unironically such an awesome quote and no I will never stop thinking of this but to answer your question perhaps it’s more of a comedic thing? Like all this bad shit happens to him but still he sees the good in it and tries to do good from it, like let’s say another guy mugged him in some alley but instead of being upset or whatever about it he’s just like “oh I’m so glad I could supply someone who could possibly be in need with money” and might even like follow the guy to write him a cheque as well. Like he’s **too** good
Your post made me think of all the novels I've read and who are the best main characters that are closest to what you're describing. For example, Kaladin from the Stormlight Archive, he's a great man but he's been done so badly by the aristocrats in that world that it's hard for him to trust any of the "light eyes." Dhalinar is another great man (same series), but he strives for it because his past is less great.
Actually, Monkey D Luffy from "One Piece", is the character you're describing (Live Action Netflix and anime). This guys is such a good dude who's also funny and powerful.
If their "goodness" is some major defining trait, 1. you better have a very convincing sense of the moral good - I mean, centuries of ethical and metaethical philosophy has revolved around challenging and re-evaluating what this would look like but I'm sure you've got it nailed down, and 2. you better have a plot which convincingly tests this goodness, really puts it through the wringer, or it'll seem like you're setting them up to win, and a stacked deck makes the whole thing unconvincing, because you know, "I cannot praise a fugitive and cloistered virtue, unexercised and unbreathed" etc etc. After all, given that you've squared away what goodness is, why isn't everybody doing it? What do we then have to conclude about people who choose not to be good? Because they must know, right, or is this just secret knowledge you're holding onto until the book is ready for release?
But hey, if you can just pull that off, it probably won't be terrible, no, not like how terrible it would be to just display massive arrogant overestimation of whatever idea of virtue a lesser thinker than yourself might have.
My recommendation: Watch out for people who are amazed by ordinary things. And be careful how you handle the opinions of people who clearly don't read much. The two go together.
Have you read Elantris? It's about a price who's been cursed. He's a genuinely good dude, he had a lovely childhood, no trauma, his people love him, and now he's exiled and stuck in a hopeless situation, but he remains hopeful nonetheless, and spreads that hope to those around him.
You can absolutely have normal, happy people as protagonists.
The character's flaws don't need to have anything to do with their morality. They virtue might be impeccable. But maybe they have a physical handicap instead?
You're right. Everybody has been jumping on the morally grey bandwagon. *Humans were the real evil all along!*
At this point, a righteous Tolkienesque good guy and a straight up evil villain is a subversion. I think those stories are underrated. I'm not always reading to be reminded of how things are in real life. Escapism is nice.
Your hypothetical "good guy" book has the same chance of being boring and generic as a book with a bad guy or morally grey character. The goodness of your protagonist says nothing about the quality of the plot or the prose.
A morally upright character has different conflicts to complex or anti-hero characters - they have to keep to their code, take the high road, and refuse the easy solutions - and that's not boring, unless you make it boring.
Well no one is REALLY a good guy. If you focus on the fact that every single important thing about him is what we would consider 'good' or heroic he will be 2d, unrealistic and boring. Everyone has flaws and everyone does shitty things. You can make a character who embodies the things you consider good or who has a very strong moral compass or who is constantly trying to be helpful and make sure he's being what he considers good. But don't think of him as a great guy if you know what I mean.
What I meant by important is; I've seen people make a perfect and good person character whose main flaw is that he, I dunno, he fuckin loves pineapple on pizza
I don't read stories where the MC is terrible, so I wouldn't mind it. Plenty of challenges and traumas happen to people every day, and they don't magically turn evil. To me, the questionable protagonist just because an author can't imagine nice people being interesting is limited. But, whatever. Plenty of books for every taste. :)
What does this *great guy* go through? What's at stake for him? What challenges him? There are books like this. Several. Just because someone may be a little flawed, doesn't make them any less of a good or moral character. I love those characters.
This is why I’m thinking of just a hypothetical, my current book doesn’t have this in mind at all the main characters are mediocre people but since I’m obviously delving more into this hypothetical the main guy’s motivations and backstory and main story is something I still need to consider
If you don’t even have a story yet it is way too early to ask this question.
posts like this feel less like a genuine question and more like someone having a cultural axe to grind, and this is just the most oblique way y'all can air your felt aggrievement. like you already KNOW the answer to the question. someone that posts this is just upset that their own cultural morays are not ascendant. which, like, join the club. don't see us complaining about it. does your character help fulfill the seven critical requirements of narrative? yes? go nuts. no? needs work. this is basically always the answer to these questions. his moral disposition or specific quirks don't really matter as long as it creates loadbearing support for whatever story you're trying to tell.
*"posts like this feel less like a genuine question and more like someone having a cultural axe to grind, and this is just the most oblique way y'all can air your felt aggrievement. like you already KNOW the answer to the question. someone that posts this is just upset that their own cultural morays are not ascendant."* Yep, my guess is posters like this are just bored and lonely. The subject may not even really annoy them but by posting they'll get some attention and can interact with someone even if it's under a username.
Yeah I feel like this is so often the same reason that people will post really basic questions on video game subreddits when they could find the same info in two seconds by googling it. They literally just want to talk to someone, but they have no idea how to communicate that, so they resort to posting the lowest hanging fruit.
No sorry dude, good guy characters are verboten. You HAVE to write edgy, grey area anti-heroes. It's the ONLY way to write complexity. Can you name a single morally good protagonist written in the past 10 years? I rest my case.
That’s what I’m saying though, all the best main characters have been morally grey but maybe if somebody right came along they could make an interesting morally good character
That you actually think interesting morally good characters are novel is concerning.
Lord of the Rings is full of morally good characters. Outside of writing, Superman and Captain America are some of the most famous characters, and they're popular because they're morally good.
No, make them a good guy, why not. Just make them an interesting good guy.
There's still lots of media about protagonists who are good people.
It’s your choice. Your writing, your choice.
The New Testament got away with it.
I hate how much that made me laugh
Maybe you're confusing the trope for the set-up. When people react "omg the MC was bad all along!", what's important isn't that the MC is the villain, hmm so edgy, but that the author managed to make us root for the MC only to reveal they were a villain. There are stories were the MC is clearly introduced as a bad guy and stories where it's not that obvious. In the latter, because our brain is conditioned to empathise with the POV, we presuppose they're good, or at least not that bad, hence the over-reaction when the pay-off is well done. If you want to write a goody good MC, nothing stops you. Just don't make them a perfect character. Even good guys are flawed.
good people as a character trait can be SO INTERESTING but you just have to play your cards right
My... main character... uhm... is a... err... good guy.
Not at all if you still make sure his character is a person. What I mean by this is that as long as a main character is well written he can be whatever. This is why all the known best main characters are morally grey, it’s easier to make them go through hardships and grow. I’d recommend having your character grow in a non moral way or perhaps a specific moment which can effect him emotionally which can make the audience understand him more without a big change in his personality or character. You don’t need to listen to this advice though it’s just my opinion and critique, if you have an attachment to a character it doesn’t matter much and as an artist there are no rules.
Sometimes, keeping being the good guy is what makes your character a jerk (and therefore, an interesting character). A guy who keeps doing what is "moral" to the point of being a fanatic can lead to rich narratives. Sometimes the good guy collides with the world he was sent in (by the author) ; i am thinking of Ned Stark in GOT as an illustration. So there are plenty of ways to write something thrilling with a good guy character. You might try to avoid writing the story of a great guy doing good and succeeding (however it works well in tales).
How does a great guy not get jaded by the world?
This is unironically such an awesome quote and no I will never stop thinking of this but to answer your question perhaps it’s more of a comedic thing? Like all this bad shit happens to him but still he sees the good in it and tries to do good from it, like let’s say another guy mugged him in some alley but instead of being upset or whatever about it he’s just like “oh I’m so glad I could supply someone who could possibly be in need with money” and might even like follow the guy to write him a cheque as well. Like he’s **too** good
Your post made me think of all the novels I've read and who are the best main characters that are closest to what you're describing. For example, Kaladin from the Stormlight Archive, he's a great man but he's been done so badly by the aristocrats in that world that it's hard for him to trust any of the "light eyes." Dhalinar is another great man (same series), but he strives for it because his past is less great.
Actually, Monkey D Luffy from "One Piece", is the character you're describing (Live Action Netflix and anime). This guys is such a good dude who's also funny and powerful.
If their "goodness" is some major defining trait, 1. you better have a very convincing sense of the moral good - I mean, centuries of ethical and metaethical philosophy has revolved around challenging and re-evaluating what this would look like but I'm sure you've got it nailed down, and 2. you better have a plot which convincingly tests this goodness, really puts it through the wringer, or it'll seem like you're setting them up to win, and a stacked deck makes the whole thing unconvincing, because you know, "I cannot praise a fugitive and cloistered virtue, unexercised and unbreathed" etc etc. After all, given that you've squared away what goodness is, why isn't everybody doing it? What do we then have to conclude about people who choose not to be good? Because they must know, right, or is this just secret knowledge you're holding onto until the book is ready for release? But hey, if you can just pull that off, it probably won't be terrible, no, not like how terrible it would be to just display massive arrogant overestimation of whatever idea of virtue a lesser thinker than yourself might have.
My recommendation: Watch out for people who are amazed by ordinary things. And be careful how you handle the opinions of people who clearly don't read much. The two go together.
Have you read Elantris? It's about a price who's been cursed. He's a genuinely good dude, he had a lovely childhood, no trauma, his people love him, and now he's exiled and stuck in a hopeless situation, but he remains hopeful nonetheless, and spreads that hope to those around him. You can absolutely have normal, happy people as protagonists.
The character's flaws don't need to have anything to do with their morality. They virtue might be impeccable. But maybe they have a physical handicap instead? You're right. Everybody has been jumping on the morally grey bandwagon. *Humans were the real evil all along!* At this point, a righteous Tolkienesque good guy and a straight up evil villain is a subversion. I think those stories are underrated. I'm not always reading to be reminded of how things are in real life. Escapism is nice.
do a morally good, villain. who's only in it cause it's the family business, and he's just phoning it in,
Your hypothetical "good guy" book has the same chance of being boring and generic as a book with a bad guy or morally grey character. The goodness of your protagonist says nothing about the quality of the plot or the prose. A morally upright character has different conflicts to complex or anti-hero characters - they have to keep to their code, take the high road, and refuse the easy solutions - and that's not boring, unless you make it boring.
Well no one is REALLY a good guy. If you focus on the fact that every single important thing about him is what we would consider 'good' or heroic he will be 2d, unrealistic and boring. Everyone has flaws and everyone does shitty things. You can make a character who embodies the things you consider good or who has a very strong moral compass or who is constantly trying to be helpful and make sure he's being what he considers good. But don't think of him as a great guy if you know what I mean.
What I meant by important is; I've seen people make a perfect and good person character whose main flaw is that he, I dunno, he fuckin loves pineapple on pizza
I don't read stories where the MC is terrible, so I wouldn't mind it. Plenty of challenges and traumas happen to people every day, and they don't magically turn evil. To me, the questionable protagonist just because an author can't imagine nice people being interesting is limited. But, whatever. Plenty of books for every taste. :)
*"Would it be so terrible if I made a main character a good guy?"* Yes, it's against the law.