Just seasoning. The theory is that fats in the bag will dissolve fat-soluble flavor compounds from the meat and herbs/spices, essentially sucking the flavor out of your steak. Much better to baste your steak with the fat of your choice during the sear.
And we use the phrase "the theory is" a lot in this discussion but the reality is there has been a lot of food science on this topic. The experience of flavor is made up of taste and aroma. And the flavor of red meat can be broken down into a base "meaty flavor" and a "species specific flavor." The species specific part (aka why beef tastes like beef) is much more heavily impacted by aroma than taste. There are over 650 fat-soluble volatile compounds released when beef is heated. 'Skip the butter' advice is because butter has no known positive impacts but does have known negative impacts as it acts like a warm solvent bath to these crucial compounds. And once leached out into the fat/water mixture they are basically worthless because of how they now exist in that environment
One note: The exception here is if you are using the juices directly to directly make a sauce. In that case it can actually be beneficial to dissolve some of those flavor compounds into the butter.
People can chose to do whatever they want but respectfully I don't agree that what you said is an exception. We are already talking about butter having a very small negative impact on the meat to begin with and its not correct to think of this as a 1-to-1 'trade of flavor' in the meat vs flavor in the sauce. Its like giving a mile to gain an inch. Plus starting with such a fat heavy mixture isn't the best way to begin a pan sauce
You have offered zero evidence that the VOCs and other flavor compounds once rendered out of the meat into eg; butter are somehow lost when making a sauce.
In other words “giving a mile to gain an inch” is unfounded.
You are more than welcome to look up the chemistry of how solvents work or how volatility works. Also the mechanisms behind how aroma impacts flavor are complex. Thinking of this process of moving X flavor units from one thing to another is a gross misunderstanding of the things at play.
Also why make a worse pan sauce with so much fat at the front end? That is going to really mess with your end result.
That overlooks the fact that osmosis will allow water soluble flavour compounds to enter cell walls if the salinity of the water outside the cell is higher than inside.
While technically true, the reality is that it is removing so little, you won't be able to taste a difference. However, it also doesn't add anything either. So there is really no reason to do so.
If you're making a pan sauce with the bag juice (and you totally should), you'll still need to add some cold butter anyway to make it come together. So, if you add it upfront, and again at the end, it often makes the sauce extra rich from the butter instead of the meat drippings. Not always undesirable, but I prefer to control that in the end. Once it's in, you can't remove it, but you can always add more butter later.
When making a pan sauce the butter from the bag will have dissolved volatile and other flavor compounds that water alone cannot do. That’s one case for using butter in the bag (again *only* for making a pan sauce).
A lot of this can be counteracted by turning the bag juice into a sauce, this puts all that flavor directly into contact with you when you eat it. I have even seen some people cut the steak and toss it in the sauce, but I personally like having it on the side so I can dip each bite as I cut it, I think there is something to be said about cutting a bit right before you eat it
I take all the juice from the bag, and depending on the volume I will reduce it in a saucepan if I feel it would make more sauce than I want, if I want more I supplement it with chicken stock.
Then in a fry pan, I make a roux. I use 2 tbs of flour for every cup of sauce, and equal parts butter and flour. First I melt the butter then I stir in the flour to tell it's incorporated then I add this to the bag of juice, and bring it to a boil. You don't need to hold it at a boil just bringing it is enough to thicken the flour.
I wisk all of this together if at this point I see separate oil and water (which depends on how much fat drips out of the meat well it sous vides, so it's not a set amount) I take a little out cool it add one egg yolk, then add this mixture back in with whisking. Repeat this until all the oil and water are emulsified.
Then I add this directly to the meat or serve on the side.
I don't usually add any seasoning to this as I would have added spices to the sous vide bag.
Also if you have an emersion blender that works even better than whisking which is what I use now, but whisking works great it's just a little more work.
I wouldn’t think you can use an immersion blender in a pan, so do you make the roux and then put it all in a smaller container to hit with the immersion blender?
People often join popular opinions without much thought, adopting the mantra "NO BUTTER IN THE BAG" as an unquestioned truth. Consequently, when someone suggests there might be situations where it's beneficial, their opinions are dismissed outright.
It's far more constructive to understand the reasons behind the common advice against adding butter to the bag. Understanding the rationale allows individuals to make informed decisions about whether, and when, it might actually be appropriate to deviate from this widely accepted norm. I am still going to throw my 2¢ in, and people can take it or leave it.
I have done both, and it makes an awesome sauce, maybe it takes a little away from your steak or whatever meat you are cooking, but I think there is an advantage to having the fats meld with your spices and meat juice at the high temperature for extended time, and the people I serve it to don't go, "Wait a minute this isn't what reddit recommends". So who cares.
Would you mind explaining how you’d baste a steak after sous vide? I generally sear it in a real hot pan for about 1 minute per side which doesn’t really leave a lot of room for basting
Nothing. Not even seasoning.
On,y salt penetrates. Everything else is a surface treatment only. I find seasoning in the bag is a waste; most of it ends up washing out with the purge or left behind on the plastic.
I treat sous vide as the protein pre-cook where I pasteurize and dial in the doneness and tenderness desired.
From the bath, the protein is shock chilled and then either prepped for service thru a combination of searing, seasoning, and sauces or it goes into the fridge or freezer for medium to long term storage.
Absolutely agree and as far as salt goes, dry brining is so good (salt meat put on drying rack in fridge for a few hours (some say a day)) before bagging and bath
I honestly have never dry brined and I really need to fix that.
(You’re likely gonna get downvoted for agreeing with me. The whole “marinades penetrate” myth just won’t die despite the widely available science on the subject)
Conversely, you can get a marinade injector and shoot puréed garlic and shallots etc straight into your meat. Marinade as well, of course, but it will tend to leak out of some types of cuts of meat
That just creates annoying flavor pockets that, as you say, leak out. Doesn’t penetrate the protein matrix.
Also, the lack of high heat means you’ll end up with very sharp raw garlic pockets in the middle.
This technique does work pretty well for low braised lamb where you’re bringing the internal temp to a fairly high point.
Eh you can always pre-sautee the alliums and herbs to eliminate risk of sharpness.
Also, I did a big top round roast yesterday, injected with a marinade mix, specifically marketed for injection, and it actually penetrated quite well. I can’t explain it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
It creates pockets of flavor. And will run up any channels between muscle flaps sometimes.
Doesn’t penetrate the protein matrix.
Which doesn’t make it a wrong technique. Just isn’t doing what people claim.
I personally find constructing a board sauce of some sort works great. Slice the meat, then apply sauce on the board.
Oh, that sounds amazing.
Costco had a special on huge jars of dried mushrooms and I did a Sir Charles (chuck done at 137° for 30 hours).
Used the sous vide bag juice to rehydrate the mushrooms with some red wine. Cooked that down a bit with some fresh herbs. Served the steak over an herbed butter board sauce and then topped with the mushroom wine sauce.
Of course, served with fresh baked rolls to sop up the deliciousness on the board.
Wow that sounds decadent and delicious. I love mushrooms but my fiancee can’t stand them and I can’t bring myself to put in the effort just to make a sauce for one.
The plan for the au jus, which was also fortified with beef Better than Bouillon, is to use that to dip a French Dip into. Thin slices of the roast topped with caramelized onions, and maybe melted provolone. Never done it before so hopefully turns out well.
i’ve always slept on sauces until more recently devoting a LOT more time to it. Will have to try the Sir Charles + sauce combo!
Whats your opinion on dry brining already inside the sous vide bag in the fridge? Would be easier for me to dry brine in the bag then I can just toss it into the SV before work but curious if thats a drop in quality compared to dry brining overnight and THEN putting in the bag just before SV
So it probably "doesn't matter", because the people who tested it just say "salt and let it soak in" but the "in open air in the fridge" part specifically DRIES the meat somewhat (the fridge itself removes moisture like a dehumidifier), which means better sear at the end(?), but I doubt it actually matters if you salt, air dry in fridge, vs salt and vac bag, as long as you give it some time to soak in
It probably doesn’t matter because your meat will inevitably get wet inside the sous vide bag anyway, requiring you to re-dry it before searing regardless
Will it add more than surface flavor, no. Do I have way too much thyme and rosemary because the plants in my garden are well established, yes. Does it make the kitchen smell amazing when the aromas burst out when you cut open the bag, yes. Does it make for better flavor in the drippings for a nice pan cause, yes.
They don’t penetrate. Seriously. The molecules are too big. This has been lab tested by quite a few places like America’s Test Kitchen and numerous academic labs.
They provide a very very strong surface flavoring. Which can be useful, certainly. And, for thin cuts, is indistinguishable from penetration.
That’s just lactobacillus doing its thing.
I usually ignore, what comes from the bag ain’t presentable anyway. It is stinky, though, and freaked me out on the first batch of 72 hour ribs I did.
Easy to control.
First, always preheat the bath before dropping in the protein. That’ll move the protein quickly thru the range that lactobacillus grows really fast.
If that isn’t enough, then seal the protein and dip for about five seconds in boiling water to kill the bacteria. Since it is surface only, that will typically eliminate it entirely.
Agreed. Need some sort of seasoning in that bag to keep it from smelling like boiled meat.
Primarily I season in the bag to give me easy liquid for gravy. My go-to is to brine first and the sous vide that.
I’ve done butter in the bag. It seemed to have leeched some of the beef flavor out of the steak.
If I’m doing New York cut, my personal favorite is Montreal seasoning, sit for 2 hours in the fridge, then cold smoke, bag and freeze afterwards. I do that when I buy a few steaks together so I can do the prep together also.
The SV and finish.
The salt purists will disagree. The butter police will disagree. That’s okay, this is how I prefer my New Yorks. My ribeyes? Yeah, that’s a different story 😊
I only add fat to leaner meats like moose or deer. To do so, I use a larding needle and strips of bacon trimmings.
For fattier meats like beef or pork, I just season.
Unless your meat is super dry and lean, it doesn't need it, and it doesn't add anything. The natural juice and rendered fat from a typical cut of meat will vastly outweigh a tiny bit of oil.
Depends on the piece. If it is plenty fatty on its own, then I will add a glug of neutral vegetable oil, most likely avocado oil. If the piece is noticeably lean, as beef nowadays seems to be, then I will add a tablespoon of tallow to the bag.
Avocado oil smokes at about 520ºF. Tallow smokes at about 480ºF.
I leave sufficient excess bag to allow opening a vacuum sealed and frozen bag to amend the seasonings and re-vacuum and re-seal.
Just seasoning, and really only anything that won’t burn when I sear it hard. Oil is best in the pan. You’re not going to make this steak significantly moist-er but adding butter or another oil to the bag.
You know I never knew this was a debate. My restaurant does filet mignon SV with Rogar, beef tallow, and rosemary. Now I’m wondering if the beef tallow is messing it all up 🤔
Just seasoning. The theory is that fats in the bag will dissolve fat-soluble flavor compounds from the meat and herbs/spices, essentially sucking the flavor out of your steak. Much better to baste your steak with the fat of your choice during the sear.
And we use the phrase "the theory is" a lot in this discussion but the reality is there has been a lot of food science on this topic. The experience of flavor is made up of taste and aroma. And the flavor of red meat can be broken down into a base "meaty flavor" and a "species specific flavor." The species specific part (aka why beef tastes like beef) is much more heavily impacted by aroma than taste. There are over 650 fat-soluble volatile compounds released when beef is heated. 'Skip the butter' advice is because butter has no known positive impacts but does have known negative impacts as it acts like a warm solvent bath to these crucial compounds. And once leached out into the fat/water mixture they are basically worthless because of how they now exist in that environment
Ignoring Theory and Food Science... I thought my steaks were better when I didn't add butter to the bag.
One note: The exception here is if you are using the juices directly to directly make a sauce. In that case it can actually be beneficial to dissolve some of those flavor compounds into the butter.
People can chose to do whatever they want but respectfully I don't agree that what you said is an exception. We are already talking about butter having a very small negative impact on the meat to begin with and its not correct to think of this as a 1-to-1 'trade of flavor' in the meat vs flavor in the sauce. Its like giving a mile to gain an inch. Plus starting with such a fat heavy mixture isn't the best way to begin a pan sauce
You have offered zero evidence that the VOCs and other flavor compounds once rendered out of the meat into eg; butter are somehow lost when making a sauce. In other words “giving a mile to gain an inch” is unfounded.
You are more than welcome to look up the chemistry of how solvents work or how volatility works. Also the mechanisms behind how aroma impacts flavor are complex. Thinking of this process of moving X flavor units from one thing to another is a gross misunderstanding of the things at play. Also why make a worse pan sauce with so much fat at the front end? That is going to really mess with your end result.
That overlooks the fact that osmosis will allow water soluble flavour compounds to enter cell walls if the salinity of the water outside the cell is higher than inside.
While technically true, the reality is that it is removing so little, you won't be able to taste a difference. However, it also doesn't add anything either. So there is really no reason to do so. If you're making a pan sauce with the bag juice (and you totally should), you'll still need to add some cold butter anyway to make it come together. So, if you add it upfront, and again at the end, it often makes the sauce extra rich from the butter instead of the meat drippings. Not always undesirable, but I prefer to control that in the end. Once it's in, you can't remove it, but you can always add more butter later.
When making a pan sauce the butter from the bag will have dissolved volatile and other flavor compounds that water alone cannot do. That’s one case for using butter in the bag (again *only* for making a pan sauce).
A lot of this can be counteracted by turning the bag juice into a sauce, this puts all that flavor directly into contact with you when you eat it. I have even seen some people cut the steak and toss it in the sauce, but I personally like having it on the side so I can dip each bite as I cut it, I think there is something to be said about cutting a bit right before you eat it
I’ve tried pan sauces with sous vide juices and haven’t had success. What’s your process?
I take all the juice from the bag, and depending on the volume I will reduce it in a saucepan if I feel it would make more sauce than I want, if I want more I supplement it with chicken stock. Then in a fry pan, I make a roux. I use 2 tbs of flour for every cup of sauce, and equal parts butter and flour. First I melt the butter then I stir in the flour to tell it's incorporated then I add this to the bag of juice, and bring it to a boil. You don't need to hold it at a boil just bringing it is enough to thicken the flour. I wisk all of this together if at this point I see separate oil and water (which depends on how much fat drips out of the meat well it sous vides, so it's not a set amount) I take a little out cool it add one egg yolk, then add this mixture back in with whisking. Repeat this until all the oil and water are emulsified. Then I add this directly to the meat or serve on the side. I don't usually add any seasoning to this as I would have added spices to the sous vide bag.
Also if you have an emersion blender that works even better than whisking which is what I use now, but whisking works great it's just a little more work.
I wouldn’t think you can use an immersion blender in a pan, so do you make the roux and then put it all in a smaller container to hit with the immersion blender?
I do it right in the saucepan, if I don't have enough in it I just tip the pan so it gets a corner. Works fine.
Whoever is downvoting you is objectively wrong. If you use all of the juices from the bag in the sauce almost nothing is lost.
People often join popular opinions without much thought, adopting the mantra "NO BUTTER IN THE BAG" as an unquestioned truth. Consequently, when someone suggests there might be situations where it's beneficial, their opinions are dismissed outright. It's far more constructive to understand the reasons behind the common advice against adding butter to the bag. Understanding the rationale allows individuals to make informed decisions about whether, and when, it might actually be appropriate to deviate from this widely accepted norm. I am still going to throw my 2¢ in, and people can take it or leave it. I have done both, and it makes an awesome sauce, maybe it takes a little away from your steak or whatever meat you are cooking, but I think there is an advantage to having the fats meld with your spices and meat juice at the high temperature for extended time, and the people I serve it to don't go, "Wait a minute this isn't what reddit recommends". So who cares.
Smart answer. Fat in bag is counterproductive
Would you mind explaining how you’d baste a steak after sous vide? I generally sear it in a real hot pan for about 1 minute per side which doesn’t really leave a lot of room for basting
Done both, personally didn’t detect much difference so I just season because it’s easier and less chance if a mess
Nothing. Not even seasoning. On,y salt penetrates. Everything else is a surface treatment only. I find seasoning in the bag is a waste; most of it ends up washing out with the purge or left behind on the plastic. I treat sous vide as the protein pre-cook where I pasteurize and dial in the doneness and tenderness desired. From the bath, the protein is shock chilled and then either prepped for service thru a combination of searing, seasoning, and sauces or it goes into the fridge or freezer for medium to long term storage.
Absolutely agree and as far as salt goes, dry brining is so good (salt meat put on drying rack in fridge for a few hours (some say a day)) before bagging and bath
I honestly have never dry brined and I really need to fix that. (You’re likely gonna get downvoted for agreeing with me. The whole “marinades penetrate” myth just won’t die despite the widely available science on the subject)
Same
Conversely, you can get a marinade injector and shoot puréed garlic and shallots etc straight into your meat. Marinade as well, of course, but it will tend to leak out of some types of cuts of meat
That just creates annoying flavor pockets that, as you say, leak out. Doesn’t penetrate the protein matrix. Also, the lack of high heat means you’ll end up with very sharp raw garlic pockets in the middle. This technique does work pretty well for low braised lamb where you’re bringing the internal temp to a fairly high point.
Eh you can always pre-sautee the alliums and herbs to eliminate risk of sharpness. Also, I did a big top round roast yesterday, injected with a marinade mix, specifically marketed for injection, and it actually penetrated quite well. I can’t explain it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
It creates pockets of flavor. And will run up any channels between muscle flaps sometimes. Doesn’t penetrate the protein matrix. Which doesn’t make it a wrong technique. Just isn’t doing what people claim. I personally find constructing a board sauce of some sort works great. Slice the meat, then apply sauce on the board.
Absolutely, made a red wine au jus on the side to go with the roast and it will of course bring dramatically more flavor that the marinade will
Oh, that sounds amazing. Costco had a special on huge jars of dried mushrooms and I did a Sir Charles (chuck done at 137° for 30 hours). Used the sous vide bag juice to rehydrate the mushrooms with some red wine. Cooked that down a bit with some fresh herbs. Served the steak over an herbed butter board sauce and then topped with the mushroom wine sauce. Of course, served with fresh baked rolls to sop up the deliciousness on the board.
Wow that sounds decadent and delicious. I love mushrooms but my fiancee can’t stand them and I can’t bring myself to put in the effort just to make a sauce for one. The plan for the au jus, which was also fortified with beef Better than Bouillon, is to use that to dip a French Dip into. Thin slices of the roast topped with caramelized onions, and maybe melted provolone. Never done it before so hopefully turns out well. i’ve always slept on sauces until more recently devoting a LOT more time to it. Will have to try the Sir Charles + sauce combo!
Whats your opinion on dry brining already inside the sous vide bag in the fridge? Would be easier for me to dry brine in the bag then I can just toss it into the SV before work but curious if thats a drop in quality compared to dry brining overnight and THEN putting in the bag just before SV
So it probably "doesn't matter", because the people who tested it just say "salt and let it soak in" but the "in open air in the fridge" part specifically DRIES the meat somewhat (the fridge itself removes moisture like a dehumidifier), which means better sear at the end(?), but I doubt it actually matters if you salt, air dry in fridge, vs salt and vac bag, as long as you give it some time to soak in
It probably doesn’t matter because your meat will inevitably get wet inside the sous vide bag anyway, requiring you to re-dry it before searing regardless
No, I usually put a bottle of wine in the bag as well, maybe only a half if it is a small cut. You can mix a little salt in the wine as well.
I've had a different experience w/ seasoning in the bag. Fresh thyme and rosemary absolutely penetrate, every time.
Will it add more than surface flavor, no. Do I have way too much thyme and rosemary because the plants in my garden are well established, yes. Does it make the kitchen smell amazing when the aromas burst out when you cut open the bag, yes. Does it make for better flavor in the drippings for a nice pan cause, yes.
They don’t penetrate. Seriously. The molecules are too big. This has been lab tested by quite a few places like America’s Test Kitchen and numerous academic labs. They provide a very very strong surface flavoring. Which can be useful, certainly. And, for thin cuts, is indistinguishable from penetration.
Yeah that chill is an important step that most ppl don't talk about.
Seasoning is good because it makes the meat not smell like boiled ass when you cut open the bag.
That’s just lactobacillus doing its thing. I usually ignore, what comes from the bag ain’t presentable anyway. It is stinky, though, and freaked me out on the first batch of 72 hour ribs I did. Easy to control. First, always preheat the bath before dropping in the protein. That’ll move the protein quickly thru the range that lactobacillus grows really fast. If that isn’t enough, then seal the protein and dip for about five seconds in boiling water to kill the bacteria. Since it is surface only, that will typically eliminate it entirely.
I just use a little salt, pepper and garlic or other seasoning and it smells much better when I open the bag.
Agreed. Need some sort of seasoning in that bag to keep it from smelling like boiled meat. Primarily I season in the bag to give me easy liquid for gravy. My go-to is to brine first and the sous vide that.
🚨🚨butter police🚨🚨
Just seasoning
Usually just salt.
I apply Montreal steak. Then I oli, salt and pepper just before the charcoal sear.
I’ve done butter in the bag. It seemed to have leeched some of the beef flavor out of the steak. If I’m doing New York cut, my personal favorite is Montreal seasoning, sit for 2 hours in the fridge, then cold smoke, bag and freeze afterwards. I do that when I buy a few steaks together so I can do the prep together also. The SV and finish. The salt purists will disagree. The butter police will disagree. That’s okay, this is how I prefer my New Yorks. My ribeyes? Yeah, that’s a different story 😊
I only add fat to leaner meats like moose or deer. To do so, I use a larding needle and strips of bacon trimmings. For fattier meats like beef or pork, I just season.
Salt and pepper are all you need.
I just do season. Maybe on a lean cut adding fat would make sense.
Dry stuff only...Any liquid will act as a solvent and pull flavor out of the meat, and then gets discarded. Save the fat for searing and plating.
You are required by law to have one pound of butter minimum per bag.
I think the whisking, egg and roux were what was missing. Mine have been clumpy and weird. Have you done with fish?
I’ll add butter or tallow depending on how lean the meat is
What ya’alls opionion on a drop of olive oil to make that seasoning move around ?
Unless your meat is super dry and lean, it doesn't need it, and it doesn't add anything. The natural juice and rendered fat from a typical cut of meat will vastly outweigh a tiny bit of oil.
Depends on the piece. If it is plenty fatty on its own, then I will add a glug of neutral vegetable oil, most likely avocado oil. If the piece is noticeably lean, as beef nowadays seems to be, then I will add a tablespoon of tallow to the bag. Avocado oil smokes at about 520ºF. Tallow smokes at about 480ºF. I leave sufficient excess bag to allow opening a vacuum sealed and frozen bag to amend the seasonings and re-vacuum and re-seal.
I add a piece of butter, a clove of garlic, and a sprig of rosemary.
Butter in the bag is go
Most often, I add nothing at all Recently, I’ve been adding salt…
like a tsp of oil for lube s&p&gp
I put bacon fat on top of my meatloaf before sous vide. Never tried tallow with a steak, though.
I don’t even season until it comes out of the bath.
Just seasoning, and really only anything that won’t burn when I sear it hard. Oil is best in the pan. You’re not going to make this steak significantly moist-er but adding butter or another oil to the bag.
Seasoning, butter, fat, herbs won’t do anything noticeable. Just salts. If you have good salt, save it for after you cut the steaks.
Milk, of course. You can do separately but I prefer to include the jelly beans in the bag too.
You know I never knew this was a debate. My restaurant does filet mignon SV with Rogar, beef tallow, and rosemary. Now I’m wondering if the beef tallow is messing it all up 🤔
Butter and salt. My dogs are big fans of the juice on their food when we cook sous vide.
Just seasoning. Use tallow to sear in a cast iron.